lopez worked at the justice department over the most abusive police departments in the country one of the points that we call innovative policing and to be the legislators and the prosecutors and those that vote for those people and you have to be a part of that change. if you are on the city council they will enforce the laws that you make. will sentence that people. so it's always easier to have a target so to be the face of the state's coercive powers. it is easier to direct the anger at them. people don't see that behind the scenes folks that want to let cops off the hook there's a lot they could do differently that no question the rest of us need to take a long hard look in the mirror. >> i would agree with that. we have been arguing in my role and to be testified about policeou reform with the congress and the senate and the house i had the honor of testifying in one of the things i talked about of the federal government we talked about everything else. and body worn cameras but then you look at the federal government. where are their reports? when his last time a federal agency

but the point i made earlier that kristi lopez drives i home is what i really emphasize to students. when you think about the situation, ask yourself two questions. if it looks like an awful thing happened as result of policing one is this is something we could change by ourselves and the other question is when you think what decision a judge should have made ask yourself about the incentive that officers face and whether this will make a difference for example if police officers don't know or care and that is in violation of the fourth amendment. it doesn't have any great impact on their behavior. when you don't really care but on the other hand if you think my age job performance is with the arrest i make goes anywhere than you think about it differently and to push them to recognize you have to have a more granular understanding how policing works and it is very localized to figure out what the relationship will be between how judges interpret the law and how officers on the ground behave. >> i like to say we have the most inefficient and ineffective policing model in the free wor

but that being said i think you're absolutely right this is something that you know my colleague kristi lopez who worked at the justice department many years investigating the abusive police departments like in ferguson missouri one of the points that she makes when we teach together we teach innovative policing in one of the points that she makes to our law students, you guys, you are going to be the legislators and the prosecutors and the defense attorneys and even a few none of those things you're gonna be the people who vote for all those people and the people who make the laws and don't go saying the problem is the cops, you have got to be part of that change when you're over end up in a prosecutor and a judge or you're on the city council you can't just point out your fingers of the police because they're going to enforce the laws that you make, they're going to prosecute people that you p bring to them the gonna sentence people that you bring to them, no question to, it's always easier to have a target and police have a visible phase to work with power and it's simpler and easier

so i started teaching law on this experience but i do think the one i made earlier the weather kristi lopez all always drives home iss within a really emphasize to students when you think about the situation, ask yourself two questions. where it looks like an awful thing happened as a result of policing. ask yourself two questions, one is this something that cops could change themselves or is it something the rest of us have to change the law for instance. the other question is when you think about what decision you think should been made ask yourself what you know about the incentives about the certain space and whether this role rule will make a difference for instance and as an example, if police officers do not know or care that somebody subsequently gets convicted, then a rule where the court will throw out evidence that the evidence was obtained illegally doesn't have any great impact. because if you're thinking so my job but to put people away forever, just my job is to arrest them and you don't really care doesn't really go anywhere and on the other hand, if you think that no,