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tv   Cross Talk  RT  January 31, 2022 6:30am-7:01am EST

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ah, ah ah, ah, ah, hello and welcome the crossing. we're all things considered. i'm peter a little war. panic is in the air, but not in care of. apparently, nato says it's united against why she's so called aggression against ukraine. but alliance members act in differing even contradictory ways. washington in london appeared to want confrontation their allies. not so much. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess piper,
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kennings and in plymouth. he is editor and founder of 21st century wire dot com. and here in moscow we have maxine swartzkoff. he is director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international studies are a gentleman, cross stock rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it start off with patrick in plymouth. and i ended my introduction by saying it looks like washington in london are more keen on some kind of confrontation with russia over the, the point of ukraine. and boris johnson is, i'm going to swoop in to europe in, you know, has his great diplomatic plan that he's a banding about, is he just trying to avoid investigations into a lot of bad parties, or does he really actually have an idea? and then i will, we'll talk a little bit about bad phone calls. patrick, give your take on this pinch fever, they were hearing the boers. johnson was absent leave on this issue for weeks with
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so called party gate. meanwhile, the sort of the war effort in the u. k. press and through all the various ministers was going on under the surface. so it was a very bizarre situation to say the least. they're sort of late to the party and politically anyway, the u. k. but they're very active, of course, via nato, behind the scenes. so, look at the bottom line here is, this is one of the biggest ever sort of virtual build ups to war in history. i mean, this is a propaganda operation. the likes, which has never been undertaken in modern times. and we, we've seen various types of propaganda with the war on terror, but not with sort of a conventional war warfare or with a sort of, you know, made to major powers going out to this level. so this is like new territory. so the question is, what is the objective here for the west and there's a number of a major pieces on the table. obviously there's geopolitically, you know,
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the u. s. is wanting to renegotiate just about every sort of major agreement this left over from the cold war era, from various missile agreements that it's backed out of. but also sort of defensive arrangements. reciprocal arrangements that were set up by the cold war. russia is very much wanting to abide by those treaties. again, we always recognize in the last few years, at russia's, acting as a normative power. they're very predictable. the u. s. is acting like an irrational state actor nato is just taken on a completely different take their become an ideological organization. now, you know, they're no longer a defense. they're much more than just a defense. a lot of just an ideological. let's spread freedom and democracy. this is the new mission of nato. so this is a total break. so it's understandable why russia can't negotiate with these these parties because it's very difficult to know where are coming from,
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especially the united states. but we can go into that in a bit. we're hitting and missing, let's talk about bad telephone calls. it looks like the president of ukraine zalinski kind of dropped the ball. he's not playing his role in the script here. and as i pointed out of my introduction, you know, you have, you know, western countries, you know, like united states like the u. k, pulling out their dependents, you know, remembered seeds and all that. he actually told the truth, at least for a short time. he did say, you know, what's all this panic about? i'm here, i am president. what's going on? this is an over reaction, and paraphrasing, of course, is, is he in trouble? i mean, you don't, you don't tell the president of the united states, your patron, that he's wrong. you don't say that to the u. k. another one of your friends, i would think he's on very, very soft ground right now. your take on what's going on between the u. s. and can you bring, will, you know, as they say, you become responsible for forever,
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for whoever you've tamed. so i think the use lensky is, is in, and in generally the, this might on revolution in ukraine has been a closer child for, for democracy. whatever a u. s. was thinking of back in 2014 when they were supporting their qu. but i think what's interesting that the lensky is becoming a dark cardinal for american domestic politics. as you know, president trump was eating each one with a telephone conversation with him. president biden was already in trouble over his some dealing seeing ukraine. and then in the last, he was still an office. now, the republicans are threatening to impeach president biden when and if they take over the congress in november, or 70 or so, you know, even though i saw the name tag going around the want,
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because lensky as he is becoming kind of a big, big pain in the neck for, for in the u. s. domestic. but in seriousness, i think the situation is very bizarre indeed. because for the what prompted zelinski to talk in public initially was of the, i don't know whether it was a sweep of the tongue or button we spoke. we're going to spill the beans on the call and called mitre incursion, of russia into ukraine. that what the administration biden said would go and fight over. that in itself was quite an interesting remark. but the lensky initially was talking about there are no minor incursions. there's only big invasions that we have to care about. and then, you know, biden kind of turns the tables that will actually, i am talking about the big invasion and the goals. what are you talking mode? we don't really see an invasion come so i do think it's did that. the situation is kind of a self inflicted panic and wound, but we should have perhaps seen it come. and because this narrative on what may
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come next and what type of invasion may come, have been, you know, going around from different angles. and it's easy for the 2 presidents and vitamins lensky to kind of sleep on their own. banana. it's interesting, patrick, i mean, who would have thought a comment from a crane would be in the cross hairs of 2 presidents when telephone couples we went from that was a perfect telephone call to it was a bad telephone call. the landscape patrick over the last few months, i can remember when it was going to have a meeting with the americans and he was on twitter. we need to be in nato now. meet on and now he's beginning to realize the cost of getting into nato is his head. okay. and a good and maybe chunks of his country. i mean, he's the hall guy and all this. i think he's begun to finally realize that, okay, we don't. and what kind of control he has over is intelligence agencies or the
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military. patrick. your answer survey lever. illustrated a good point to this to this effect in his response to anthony blanket white paper and nato's white paper. it's good that they're passing papers around by the way, right now that's better rather than they're not supposed to be public missiles and bombs. but again, i said, look, you can't, you can't guarantee that the ukrainian military is a unified organization. in other words, there are paramilitary units, or you know, far right paramilitary units, which aren't under the direct control all the time of one single unified apparatus . so if you look at, when you ramp up tensions and you have a potential for either a false flag or an image, 17 style event or the gulf of tonkin type, a miscommunication that might be intentional, in fact. but anyway, that aside, it's very dangerous. a situation where you're heightening tensions like this and u. s. is definitely putting pressure on ukrainian government on zalinski. many
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people will say that the ukraine government is captured already by the western sphere of influence by the united states. in this interesting, when you listen to tony blinking, and he's very shaky by the way, very nervous. when you listen to his speech is press congress or the night he's really only concerned with 2 things. one of them is a stock pile or stocks of weapons. the u. s. is unloading all their old last year's clothes out, stock on the ukraine, and then stockpiles of energy or energy energy supplies. and it's funny that these threatening the rest is saying, rushes threatening europe with the weaponized. if russia weaponized is it gas and out of a dramatic effect on the european consumer and so forth, there's nobody doing more to shut down and stream to pipeline than the united states and britain. ok. so, i mean, you can't take us seriously in diplomacy when there make 2 different statements,
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basically in the same speech, i mean, it's totally inconsistent, like the level of duplicity is just off the charts. so it's, i can see it being very frustrating for a survey, live ra, russian, diplomatic team to have any kind of meaningful negotiations or to, to know that you're going into negotiations. and the other party is already basically choosing of acting in bad faith before you even come to the table. so basically this diplomacy is finished at that point and what you have is this kind of media war, this bizarre parallel universe. it's been constructed by the u. s. media. they've brought on the tele click go now in the u. s. media doing the rounds, the mayor of kiev, and they're saying for tele, are you going to physically stand up and fight those russians when they come to sac? yeah, i mean, the idea that russia is going to march in sac, he is just fantasy. but this is what passes for like legitimate political discourse right now in the united states. i mean, is really in a crazy situation. it's,
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it's come to right now. you know, it was talked about, i think about that week 10 days ago that the russians maybe planning some kind of who and change of government. yeah. but you know, if you really think about it, i mean, maybe that's exactly what the u. s. department and the, and the brits are thinking themselves because they did it in 2014. they might do it again and then blame someone else. i mean i wouldn't let it pass. these people go ahead man. well obviously it's hard to to think rationally. when you have this irrational argument on the other side, i think what's 140, perhaps east of the likely next round of talks if rush ace to continue this talks, is going to evolve around something that's foreign minister elaborate mentioned in again response to white papers. when, you know, basically the department said that they're not going to discuss the future need to
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ukraine's potential accession tinita, which everyone knows is not going to happen at least anytime soon. and the response is suggested that russia is going to spin this issue around the concept of quote, unquote, undivided security in europe and lateral who is referring to the 2 important papers that i think the rational part is going to put on the table. that is a stumble declaration of 999 enough on a declaration of 2010 that endorsed this concept. if i divided security and no security of any country in europe could be achieved via security of other states. and i think that that is the substantial conversation and it's better for all the parties to, to go to talk about the i can jump in there. i mean, this is something that the russians had brought up before. when nelson bergmann general secretary of nato, he just want addressing. i mean, this is again,
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one of the most frustrating things here is that the russians presented to papers. essentially, what would become treaties blanket just that won't react to ok, the self and burns as if, you know, the, the whole universe revolves around nato, is rules, which is so bizarre. i mean, i'm not, in ne, goes to, why should i be buying care about its rules? you know, at the right and this is a good point. nato's open door policy. that scene is sacrosanct. this is basically become akin to, in terms of the west and nato members. this is equal to internet law in their eyes, but it was a hard breaking up about our break will continue our discussion on some real estate marquee. oh, mm hm. with
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a welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered 9 peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. okay, it's go back to patrick and plymouth. we had to go to a short break there. go ahead and please finish up. you know, this, this, it is a nato policy open door policy, in this case is somehow sort of equal in sort of weight to international law. this is the argument that's being put forward by nato countries. so how did this happen? this has been sort of drifted out gradually over the last few years. you can see it and the rhetoric is becoming more political, more ideology. john stoughton burgers is becoming sort of more of a political figure than sorta director general of any military alliance. so nato is
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desperate for relevance in the world. and this is one of the reasons why this crisis is being ramped up. i believe there's also an economic piece on the back end of that. of course, that's the arm sales. it's the military, industrial market. ok, but beyond that, they're also very scared. you know, they're very close. they know they're, they're losing or have lost the don bass. ok, creamy has gone. everybody knows that john mearsheimer said that in 2014, nobody got the memo in washington for sure. but the dumbass is gone, so this is a very difficult time. they want revenge for crimea. ok, they're going to keep sanctions on. they're going to sabotage the normandy format and try to make sure that makes records and are never realized. this is also a major objective of the west, so they're really in a difficult situation. and again, it's a, it's a situation that they're making. now the, the, my don qu mostly piece for protesters and in 2014 that and also did denial of history. the fact that the west has always been interested in the
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stabilizing or grooming certain factions in western ukraine. and this region, since the end of the 2nd world war, you'll never hear any of these 2 points. they're qu in 2014 and the history of the region. you'll never hear this address in context ever by any us media politician or think tank pundents re. ok, and this is, this is the reason why there's a major disconnect here in terms of discussions and diplomacy. maxine when we haven't brought up that dumbass, right. i think this is where it's really key to it all because i think if there are thinking people in care in washington in london, they know that the balance is lost. i mean, it could stay inside ukraine's borders, but it will have never had cable never have direct control over it again. i mean, the camp government, you know, is killed, 14000 people there. i mean, i wouldn't trust them governing don bass again when see that's the key to what all
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is a somehow get a provocation for the russians to do some kind of committee action regarding dumbass, they can regime already knows it's gone. that's how you learn the men, that's the trap and weapon attack will been attacked. okay. and then, you know, the bathrooms are pros and complex has a different status. and then the same thing, you know, some kind of skirmish around me and i ended up in to be and then they say, well, ok are we, we're now is to get in the, into, into nato. because we, we, we had to fight off and aggressive. we quit, we were too small who in a back that we didn't have enough allied support and then the candidates, he becomes a lot more viable, does not make any sense. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. and i think in that context, the overflowing of ukraine with weapons and some of the private military contractors from the west is very worrisome. in this respect, the assessments that we in moscow here from, from,
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from the united states are that you know, since there are no security guarantees to nita with then kind of formal nato framework we, the americans in the british and others have to show some support to the ukrainians are doing so by supply of weapons and then things like this. i think we're also in other problem is that we're still are not secure from the what i would call the soft gosh, really syndrome, you know, may not necessarily come from his lensky himself. but as, as patrick in many other analissa pointed out already that there are tons of actors, destructive accuracy, ukraine, and that laboratory alluded to that are interested in repeated when all these talk over the, over the over done by show between russia in the us and others and would be happy to use the weapons that are supply to them to a stage of provocation. and, you know, create a pretext and causes bella, for the, you know,
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rushing response and things i guess. and that will then escalade to an unintended war that no party really seems to be wishing for, because there are seriously no, no consequences, no consequences that you can predict at this point. but i think we've also seen the past that wester states while having the a do not have a b, as for it was, it comes on the brain policy. really interesting, patrick gamma. a. not so long but forgotten base reappeared in the british press is shameka. he's back or you know, came back from his trip. from over the new years, he was a poland and wrapping turkey and the right back. that was an arrest warrant for him . he showed up duly at the prosecutor's office. and then apparently from what i'm told is that they were western embassies and cancer. but, you know,
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let him out. i mean, pressure was the by, this is what i'm told here. and all of a sudden, you know, has been, is, gets big headlines. i mean, again, you know, they, the soft gosh, really affect, i wouldn't want to be mr. lensky right now, because they're finding another center again. because remember what a shank. i tapped the don balance. that's the guy they want. yeah, that's washington was, that's what london wants and someone will do it. ok, the ukraine will get slaughtered, but you know, that's still good. the whole point is and about ukraine. ok. what is anchor that once he might do it again, let's see. i think it's suddenly realized he is, he is the sacrificial lamb and all this. and i think that's why i reached out to the brats. sure, sure. i mean, the biggest fear of, of the west obviously is, is bilateral talks and negotiation between kevin moscow that cut out the middle man as it were you, what else would you expect with 2 neighbors? so this is why they're trying to basically inflate this as
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a sort of international crisis in imminent war and imminent invasion by the russians to make it more of an international for could be very easily be di, fears. but that's not so simple as we know that the hand of the united states is so far into ukraine right now. and it has been for the last 7 years that i think it's almost inescapable that level of pressure and influence that every ukrainian leader is going to basically ex, experience. it's very difficult situation to decouple the west from, from ukraine on all those different levels. zalinski has an opportunity to do some great things in this situation and for his country and for the region. whether he actually takes that opportunity or not to take a very brave leader to do that. and especially in neo fight in politics like himself. but back to the original point that my colleague made maximum is that, you know, the false flag aspect is dangerous, but in the west it will only take is it could be a cyber falls flat, is
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a really ramping up the cyber threat. so what i think would be easy risk free escapade which the west loves risk free escapades, especially the u. s. in britain is to have some sort of a cyber incident, blame it on russia, and then throw down the hardest sanctions that you've ever seen. and basically declare this as virtual war, but as leverage said, if they're going to lay down a new raft of sanctions like this, that will be the equivalent from moscow's position of basically a break and in diplomatic relations. that serious dots are prelude to actual war, or it puts you into a hard cold war setting and nobody wants that to happen. but it seems like that's the direction. things are being pushed. so we'll see. yeah, i mean let met same. i mean, i have to agree with patrick, i mean essentially there is, there's 2 traps here. the ukraine has turned into a wonderful headache that the russians have been generated by western united states
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and the u. k. and just constantly boiling, having the grain boiling, or plan being, it wasn't get to a certain point. they just want to throw russia out of europe altogether. and that's why they're thinking about this all energy situation, because that's, that's the weak link in all this week. there are reports that, you know, the u. k in the, in the u. s. are, are one to cobble of energy assets, natural gas, primarily from my car and other places like completely remake the energy map with europe, which should be very, very costly. probably he wouldn't work. ok, i mean, this is something that is very, very dangerous because, you know, germany is the power house of europe and what the german economy is doing. good. and it's export oriented. an export oriented countries mean a lot of energy. again, you know, the 2 biggest loser isn't this isn't crime in germany. go ahead. well, i think exactly. that's the reason why the buys ministration is now being mad at
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the germans. and why the british charles, who getting that germany, that i would behave, and i think for the 2nd time in the last year ever since the germans stood up for the north stream to a pipeline. this is the 2nd time they're trying to demonstrate that they actually do hear a little bit at least about their own. a strategic sovereignty in the decision making. and are perhaps not willing to jump into this crisis without 1st seeing what russia up to are not willing to flood ukraine with weapons. and we have to give it to the credits of germany. the been very careful, unlike many other nations in the west about providing weapons to armed conflict and the, the, the have to, i think a more kind of cautious waiting line here to see what happened next before you know,
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running before the train and sweeping sanctions on russia and shut down the north stream, and that is not perhaps the positions of the wide ministration expected. they thought that germany would be great ally in this crisis and would actually take on responsibility for, you know, pioneering the toughest response to russia. and will hopefully, you know, the germany here may, may or all of a sudden then perhaps to the many surprise too many here in moscow be more and more cautious than the past. we'll see if they're able to stood up to the all that pressure that's coming from, from washington now, and continue on the track. and you know, the paintings are also get mad at germany for not as they think are doing enough before to, to, to jump to there to support. you know, i'm not doing enough to help destroy their own country. i this is a thing i really, we're patrick about 30 seconds last year. i think ultimately this is this gambit that nato is playing out is going to is good. it is a part of the demise of nato, which i would regret, obviously. but also,
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the effort to separate right to from europe will end up in my opinion, isolating europe, go ahead. 22nd. you know, and the important point is germany is as big a target is anything in this whole geopolitical exercise, pulling germany away from russia, making sure germany doesn't face eastward, not only that, but for the belt and road project as well. germany is fit to service both the east and the west. patrick patrick, again, the cold war mentality is over. keep the rush south, the germans down the americans and are as well. it is still in what i gentlemen, that's all the time we have want to thank my guess the limit and here in moscow and bank are be worth watching us here. are the see an ex family member? ah ah ah ah, is you'll media
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a reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, whole community? are you going the right way? where are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great in the world corrupted. you need to descend, ah, so join us in the depths will remain in the shallows. it's an open secret. the private military companies have been playing a role in our conflicts world wide. u. s. government doesn't track the number of
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contractors it uses in places iraq or afghanistan, the united states army and the military and general is so reliance on the private sector. i would call the dependency, but we don't know who's the on the ground presence of these companies overseas. we just don't out west and private military companies can in their turn, views, so cool subcontractors from countries with trouble pass. the chances are quite good that they had also been child diligence. this is, i was, i drove professional with the whole wouldn't look what it would be if i said that looked with no funeral loan . if you want your choice to be merciless killing machines, now they fight and die in other people's was people. carol, lock one, a dead soldier or dead marine shows up in this country and we start asking yourself,
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why did they die? why do what were they fighting for? nobody bothers down to about dead contractors in a meeting from anger. the canadian prime minister is with quarterly rush to an evacuation side because more than 10000 truckers protest against vaccine mandate outside parliament. we have from one of the i to this she's been in the heart of the demonstration in we've never seen anything like this before. either ordinary canadian or simply tired of it, but a government telling us how we are going to live our lives. i can't, we are math level. brandon is in the seat. and passenger acute line for violating his freedom of speech off the he's off to remove his face off because of the anti.


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