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tv   Cross Talk  RT  January 7, 2022 10:30am-11:01am EST

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[000:00:00;00] ah, ah hello and welcome to cross doctor. all things are considered. i'm funeral. how should we describe our times? what is the zeitgeist as they say? do we have a sense of direction and purpose? we also hear a lot about the desire to return to normal. what does that mean now? are we actually living in the new normal? ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, lionel in new york. he is
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a legal in media analyst. and in paris we crossed to john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy, right, gentlemen. crosstalk rules that affect, that means you can jump in in time you want, and i always appreciate it. ok, let's start with john. what is our zeitgeist today? because it seems to me we're in a transition that are transistor dorothy period right now. certainly we've left something behind. i have no idea where we're going, but i also have a difficult time describing where we are your thoughts? well, to be honest, it feels like we're in the end times pizza because so much seems to be going wrong . both in internal politics across the world. and of course, in the international situation and internal politics, i'm referring of course to the sanitary dictatorship, which just gets worse and worse. we've seen a number of red lines cross in britain, in austria, in france, in greece,
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in germany. where all kinds of fundamental rights and liberties have been asked aside. i know they were brushed aside originally in 2020, but it's now clear that we are living through a, a sort of ratchet effect, where each new restriction paved the way the restriction paper, the way for a new one. and on the international level, we obviously have this again, rather unreal world, just as the cobit world is so unreal and doesn't make sense and doesn't, doesn't that out we have this, you know, within a few months of the defeat of the united states and its allies, after a 20 year, not even war, but a 20 year sort of anti insurgency operation, which failed. we see nato carrying on as if nothing has happened later in the united states. and they've just changed the name of the city they want to defend. it's not cannibal anymore, but here and there ratcheting out tensions at
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a time when it's obvious that they can't win any more anywhere. whether they're in the hindu kush or in the pine plains of central europe. so i have to say, i'm very, very despondent. i feel it all kinds of values because i'm a conservative, so i think values are in decline, but i don't think even i and i don't very other conservatives expected the massive unraveling the collapse really of all the sort of basic tenets of civilization which we have observed in the last year and a half and that's what fills me with grateful. boating illegal. basically the same questions you because i kind of to echo what john was saying here. i guess with really disappoints me. not surprises, but this it disappoints me. how so many people were willing to give up their rights very easily and, and, and continue down the slippery slope because no, john mentioned cope with it. it's like the colds and everyone. oh, you know,
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they're playing out their own little, um melodrama. and it's that it empowers them, you know, they get to change people, you know, on your mask, you know, and get another wooster. i mean, it seems to me that, you know, replaced me and we were in least in the western world, we have, you know, millions of little tyrants out there and just regarding the rights of others, your thoughts line. well, i disagree with both of you. i think things have never been better. i think it's so much easier to be a citizen of the world now because we have fewer rights to worry about and keep track of. so actually it's better because i don't have to worry about all of those pesky bill of rights provisions and freedom of speech and keeping the government off. that's all gone. i say that not even mockingly. you know, i'm, i'm trying to answer the questions accurately and not provide somebody that makes a great sound bite. but i've got to tell you something,
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i'm sure everybody in every iteration of history always said this is the worst time and i'm sure during the black death in world war 2, peoples and it can't get worse than this. i see myself or an us in almost like a parallel universe. i'm. i'm trying to think of some weird kind of way of, of showing this. here's the world. here's this, this shadow government. and i can't figure it up. but you said something. peter was very, very good. i believe that coven is a religion the vaccine or boosters, whatever vaccine is the sacrament found. she is the pope. and the cdc is the vatican. and a man trying to be a good i'm, i'm, i'm serious. this gives people something to believe in something to fear, a sense of belonging, who has delayed his boucher who has the latest vaccine document in new york right now. people are running,
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running to 2 vaccine testing sites to see whether they have the micron variant, which i heard is basically, alas, we are now in an end amick versus a pandemic. but nobody wants to hear the good news because they are so caught up in the almost sexual fetishistic titillation of fear and dread it. i'm not exaggerating. that wasn't meant to be a cute, pithy answer. i mean it in them, let me, let me go back to john. yeah, i mean, it would say the echo what you said an answer. your 1st question, you, this is reboot this, this melodrama that's being played out. this is, this is a really poor thing. rule substitute for rights because if you're part of the cult than you know, the terms and conditions, but if you disagree with it, then you're in a pastime. if we can continue with the metaphor here, that means there's no place for you in their church, and that is
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a fundamental difference because, and i think you're the end times is a very appropriate one. i you know, how do you, how you get no return to communion they don't want you in that church and i think that this is, i don't like sacrificing my rights to leave in someone else's quasi faith. go ahead, joe. yeah, well i don't agree with lionel at all. i think it's a very important point to refute that at all times in history. people have thought that it was that things are going badly. that is, i'm afraid, quite wrong. there have been many times of history, including recent history, when people believe very strongly in progress, they believed that the golden age was in the future. they believed that technology would help people to live longer and have be happier and all rest of it. so it's just not true to say that people have always thought that things are getting worse . and as for the sense of belonging, i really don't understand what you're saying,
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like, because well, maybe people who have covey door, who have tested negative or whatever, have a sense of belonging. i don't really know what it is you're referring to, but i can assure you that people who don't have a vaccine passport and who are excluded from ordinary life. they certainly don't have a sense of belonging. how could they, they are victims of apartheid. there's no sense of belonging told on the country. as peter said in his introduction, there's an army now of people denouncing their fellow citizens, but they saw that minor infraction. so what, what depressed his me is not just what you referred to peter just now as my rights and my liberties. yes, that also depresses me. but what i find, the reason why i think we are in sort of n times, is that the value itself of freedom is no longer appreciated. it's not that i
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demand my rights. it's that the freedom itself has a social value. it has a social value. it is good for all of us. if we are free, we all know those of us who experience soviet russia, how bad it is socially. if people are not free, it is bad for the whole of society. freedom is good for the whole of society. it is a positive value, and yet we are now in a situation in which freedom is regarded as not only unnecessary but the bubble as dangerous. and that is why i think we have indeed crossed the watershed and are living in very, very bad times. it line of the, given that they, they the thrust of our conversation here, i would say i'm going to add another let layer of depression of the people that are governing over us. ok. i mean, i, i've never seen in my, my time this level of incompetence that john, when the guy gave a litany of policies. but he and we, you know, i just don't see these people as competent and i think it's on both sides of the
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atlantic. and i, i look at them the, by the ministration. i look at what is really turned into a person is turned into political buffoon boris johnson. i mean, why should we have faith in these people because they invoke something called science. now, science has been negated. it's been deleted as something that we can make a common preference to go ahead while now in, i'll speak just as far as this country goes. i am waiting for somebody to tell me a jumper to get a point that this is a joke that they've been pulling this off just to for me. we have a president enough can't be said who is absolutely he is sun setting and and, and he is going to be speaking about something. he knows nothing about. he comes out, he is pushed out and i'm not trying to be a cute about this. he literally actually and truly does not know where he is and what he's saying. and at every level,
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we have some new iteration of this. we have another example. we have lost the ability to show any kind of critical thinking whatsoever. nobody seems to want to understand the bear rudiments of how vaccine transmission or shoot me a virus transmission works. you have groups of people who are saying that whatever we're doing right now. as an example, we have 2 senators who just had all of the vaccines and i would venture to say they probably had the best available and the boosters, and yet they have quote tested positive. and instead of people saying, wait a minute, there was something wrong with the system. this is like a car where the brakes don't work or something where the, where there are some product liability. instead of people saying that they just said back as they do whenever they hear something like, for example, inclement weather in the st. wow, that's really interesting. and there's this sense of acceptance. nobody cares nobody, nobody is repelling this. nobody says, wait
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a minute. i want my freedom back. this doesn't make any sense. we're not, i'm going to go elsewhere. i don't think the people telling me what's going on, but you know what you're talking about. and this, this insouciance is his intellectual torpor, whatever you want to call it. but it see idea that my biggest problem, yes, i understand the politicians that they're corrupt. i understand it, but my fellow citizens, there are the people. i have the biggest gripe bigots because i'm in this prison ready to escape. i see the door open, i'm say come on, let's go. and nobody wants to leave. they see him in a very strange way. not only accepting of this, but, but almost not even in the slightest bit. many of them, not all, but not even bothering by this. they're saying, well, this is the way goes and if you want me to go inside, i will, if you want me to wear a chip on my skin, which we're going to go do next. as we're doing in sweden, if you want me to walk around with a tattoo or q r code on my, for it, i'll do whatever,
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because whatever the will to resist that people normally had. it's been lost as a version of this, or as a consequence. when you're gentlemen and the 1st part of the program, a little bit depressing. now we'll see if we can pick it up for the 2nd now or a gentleman. i'm going to jump in. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on site guide state with our te, ah, ah, ah, pandemic. no, no, board is under slide to tease a new fresh as emerge. we don't have a therapy, we don't have a vaccine. the whole world leads to take action to be ready. people are judgment,
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common crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive, so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with ah, took a forced to chill, just as cool as the child begins with each one is a bad though it was just my william let he's
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a curriculum was left the keenest that with water with a couple of minutes when you was, wasn't that the good for them saying that if you change, cuz you machine that you with no, i mean logical for that amount with a female power. so any with ah, welcome back to crossed up. were all things are considered? i'm funeral bell. this is the home addition to minute we're discussing site guys. ah, okay, let's go back to john in france. i'm gonna use another extended metaphor for our,
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for our program here. you know, looking for the root origins of something is very, very difficult as academics, it's kind of, it's very important exercise when you know, where are we in the way, the way you see change going about, are these tremors were feeling right now? have we already had the earthquake? are we feeling the aftershocks up origins? we could look at like regulated in the advent of trump. ok. because we've seen so much reaction to both here because i'm trying to get a field where we're going. now. you can, you tipped your hand in the very beginning. the problem my saying is enter, which i think is a very good description. but i mean, is, are we going into a more massive change? are we viewing the after effects of a huge change that's happened in the last 24 months? i call it i call 202020. and 2021 is belong 2020. a lot of things have happened in that time. but it's the same. fight guys, is that the name of this program go ahead, john? well,
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i think unfortunately what the cobra crisis shows is the very deep based sense of freedom which many citizens had perhaps on noticed. certainly on noticed by me at the time when the 1st lockdown measures were taken back in the spring of 2020 and everything else has confirmed that the all the subsequent events have confirmed that what i mean is that people, as lionel said, in the 1st part people regard it as the liberation to be false, to have a vaccine, which allows them to go up to a nightclub. well, if your vision of liberty is to go out to an is the right to go out to a nightclub, then you have, or a pub, or whatever. then you have a very debased version of liberty, its infant tile and almost animalistic notion of liberty. it's a very long way from the proper notions of political liberty that we, that we used to hold death. so i think that's been
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a long decline upstream as it were. and then we had these extraordinary measures announced which seem not to be going away because a number of countries are now getting more and more vicious. i mentioned australia already britain, the netherlands is just come back into lockdown. and all these things i think, show they bring to the surface trends, which perhaps we haven't properly taken the count off before. and one of those trends, there are many of them. one of them is short termism. you mentioned incompetence. peter, in your, in one of your questions, i think that's a very big problem. i think we all go up and buy by fools by chances, by opportunists, by people who come into power without having any real sense of the responsibilities . and these people have been taking the can down the road for a very long time. as we all know, all our states will,
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our countries are heavily indebted. and yet, the repayment is always, as i say, kicked down the line to all these things have been building up slightly on to the surface. but with this sudden explosion of totalitarianism that's i think is, is what you said. because it shows the extent of all decline, it brings it into focus. it brings into focus the fact that what people want now is not freedom. they don't want, they don't want freedom. they don't want to be able to do what they want, at least not in a noble sense. they may want to have very sort of basic freedoms like to go to a restaurant. they don't want to freedom in any noble sense. instead, they are afraid of freedom, and that is the beginning of totalitarianism. it is precisely when people are afraid of freedom and when they actually don't want it, they don't want it to themselves and above all, they don't want it for all the people. because these 2 tele, terry and states that we need, we, we saw in the 20th century, they didn't come from nowhere. of course,
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there were dictators and police and everything. but there was a substantial level of political support. and when you have citizens denouncing each other as you do now, only this morning i went to buy some milk and the, the farm. and the woman was afraid of being denounced, but not wearing a mask. you know, when you have that level of corrosion of society, the soviet experience, i'm sorry to mention that again and again. but that was largely predicated also wanted nancy ation. that is the social or sociological situation that we have reached and which fills me as i say, with, with a great sense of foreboding because it's not just a matter of the governments. it's a matter of the society that we live in, nor the societies that we live in, which have become deeply, deeply degraded, illegal. it's very interesting if you look at a lot of the poll results over the last couple of years of the public's trust in, in traditional institutions is eroded away immensely. even in particular the united,
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particularly the military. um and then we have this and we've already mentioned here, this culture, snitching and denunciation here. i mean, it's in how can a society be healthy and move forward if you have a suspicion there of the institutions in rule over you. and on top of that you have suspicions of your fellow citizens. you know, i'm, i can be kind of a digressed through january 6 um commission, which is looking for scapegoats for all the ills of society. um, you know, it seems to me that the social fabric is very it being torn apart here. and just to reiterate, you know, it's been said in this program here. it's really i'm, i think i find it very, very tragic that so many people in brace since because that, you know, john and i and you know, i lived in eastern a communist eastern europe. a john is a scholar of the soviet union at the echoes here,
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so familiar. it's so troubling line. when, when a physician sometimes don't know how to explain the death of a loved one, they say organ failure system failure. and we're in the midst of kind of a system failure, right now, i'm seeing our society take on a mutation of variant, if you will. there used to be something which i thought human beings inherently fountain energy ability to express themselves. and if you told, if he told somebody you can't say this, whether a child or an adult, you automatically rebel and repelled that. something happened with the advent of social media and other aspects as well. first of all, we came in the we were the idea that i can shut you down by claiming that what you're saying is a conspiracy. and before that was a description, but now it is license to stop you. then i can say you are providing this information, what you were doing right now. and there was this idea at one point where what ever you said, if i didn't like it,
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i just dismissed it. now what's happening is that people are becoming more and more acclimated and habituated and used to, to, in condition to having certain things shut up and shut down. especially if they are deemed to be not good for the whole, not good for us misinformation about back of but viruses, misinformation about history. and though ike and also for the 1st time we met you january 6, we're actually suggesting that sometimes speech ideas are so incendiary, by their very nature, which every good idea is that we have the license to shut you down a priori without anybody saying. and in conclusion, we've all said, not anybody here, but too many people have said, well, that's the way it goes. that's the price you pay for orator. for some semblance of order or in com will give up
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a little bit so long as everything is smooth. whatever our master says, well, that always ends in tragedy. there is a long, a tragic rec, historical record of that. in it, john went with it. i'm glad they know this misinformation thing. i mean, i will express my own humble opinion. it's the mass media, legacy media or the biggest sources of misinformation. and we in part of the, the great liberal project, which i mean with, with us a large l. a is tolerance, i mean we, it, we have freedom of speech of i can use the american example. it's, it's, it's an popular speech that needs protections, not popular. people are speech. and i think we've lost sight of that. people have lost sight of that. we have a 1st them it protect people that have opinions that are not popular and it's actually a fundamental, it's part of the pillar of, of western civilization. and so many people trivialize it. yeah, i mean, and you know,
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that's why i say that we are worse off than before because these issues were, for example, well explained and argued in what to me as an irrefutable way by john stewart male, in his famous essay on liberty in the middle of the 19th century, when he said that even a true opinion needs to be confronted with false hoods in order for that true opinion to be reinvigorated and to be known by the public as a living truth. not just to be, you know, sort of shot away in the cupboard. so john stuart mill argued that full, sued as it were. dialectical strengthens truth if, if of course the truth is allowed to respond as it should be. so we have now lost that understanding or not, not we perhaps here on the show, but many people have lost that understanding. and what i think is even worse is that the narrative about this information means quite simply. this is an obvious
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point, but it means that your political rival, your political adverse, it is a liar, your political adversary is somebody who is lying. and of course, that greatly increases the intensity of the political rivalry. and if he is lying your adversary, then indeed you have the right indeed duty to shut him down. and again, that's why i think that this social and political climate is so poisonous because you mentioned the 6th of january and the others. what have we, however, we refer to those events. what those events encapsulate, of course, were a distrust of institutions on the part of the people demonstrating. but the counter reaction demonstrates nothing less than a hatred of those people a hatred of the people who feel distrust in the institutions. and that is the great cleavage of our day between on the one hand, these elites whom we rightly denounce as being remote. and those leads whose
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feelings towards people like us, people like you, peter and me, is one of hatred. and that's why the whipping up of hatred and suspicion in society against, for example, the non vaccinated as, as to been done recently in france and in other countries where they are blame, does it work for the, for the virus. these are anthropological, extremely dangerous passions to unleash and once again. that's why i feel so pessimistic about the times that we live in because when these passions of scapegoating are released and it really is genuinely, i'm not trying to be alarm as it is genuinely, very difficult to know where they will end. it's right in the wrong leashed, and legitimize by authority, it's almost impossible to make the turn. i want everybody to know my audience. i took the vaccine because i thought it was the right choice for me. and i, i firmly believe in freedom that people should make their own choices as well.
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coercion always ends badly or gentlemen, that's all the time we have want to thank my guest from new york and embarrassed when they were watching us here to see you next time. remember prospect this? oh, ah, this isn't an orphanage even to see children have been kid for at the fountains? house. i take my much mamma, a nice medical michelle in the middle of the issue. a violin mom on is violet, but dana, mom, yes,
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a lost me a shuttle. i can medina, i who and stacy are in mexico and re heading south and we're getting closer and closer to the epicenter,
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the global center point now of the big coin for revolution. ah ah, i have given the order to open fire and kill terrorists without war. she's the catholic, president claims $20000.00 extremists of attack of the country's biggest city, amid deadly anti government unrest. the also thank to allies, including russia for sending in peacekeepers per his request. we have questions about the nature of this request and whether it has it was a legitimate invitation or not. we don't know at this point, washington questions where the context on had the right to invite its own allies just by the con, drooping part of a mutual assistance fact under the c s t o defense law. the british prime minister boris johnson, admitting failing to disclose text to a sleaze watchdog in which he asked the donor of funding to renovate its flat. and
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he seemed a hint good favors in return. opponents. meantime,


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