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tv   Going Underground  RT  December 13, 2021 5:30pm-6:01pm EST

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the country, your reaction to the overturning of a decision. there was to disqualify safe, i'll get off it. well, this actually confirm what i have been saying through this very program for years that the will be and people will be victorious. and then what is happening now is that will it be a tri, cities and towns are coming together slowly, but in a very fast way to liberate their country from foreign intervention, especially that of western europe. and islam is increasingly seen by mos libyans as they way out of this crisis. but it presents the good history of libya and he is a young man, and he's project for the country is that of truth and reconciliation and peace
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for libya. and so we are very excited, unhappy, and this is not a step forward towards authority or the throne of libya. it's a step forward towards liberating the countries we have a machine 10 foreign military bases in libya, according to the united nations itself. and we have 20000 or in fighters on libyan land at this very moment. this is a country and the accumulation of our 1st task is deliberated. obviously, that's denied by the general authority back by the un security council. power is what about the fact that the general have to also be allowed to run planes a report on election issues in the next few hours i. he comes 3rd in a pool by the d one institute. i don't know what you think of them. we all know about the think tanks and,
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and jo's in their views that arguably capitalize the destruction of your country. they've got, i'm in debate, but you might have to explain who that is. save how good after the world knows who is actually for half a 14 percent after 7 percent, 49 percent a and 25.5 undecided? well not just for everyone knows that you cannot conduct any truthful and opinion pose on. i live in libya because of a security situation. many to be in cities and towns are under the control of violent malicious. so these are supposedly the beast pinion. polls are done by p. r. companies and conducted by western capitals the scene for the eventual victory. they hope for the agents, libya, if you actually listen and watch libyan media out from all political science,
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you will hear a general agreement on site that islam can that he has a wide popular support in the country in islam is the only political candidate who speaks about for him and for once was against foreign intervention and who wants to be at united, peaceful and democratic. i want to ask you, who general after is, is a pharmacy i said in the nation, media is often talked about as being supported by egypt in russia. and i understand that there are reports that he tried to stop the ruling on save. i'll get after his ability to run by sending fighters to locate the court. and so, but i just have a direct french not to the people but to the ones who control the point. if you can, let's see and, and the country and who are connected foreign powers,
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you will notice actually and that i always go back. 5 to mention in for an intervention, because this is the equation simply in libya, you cannot talk about the issue of democracy. all police can activity piece of prosperity for libyan without actually mentioning the major cause of what is happening in our homeland, which is military and political intervention from powerful nation. have the baby basha and many, many other name. they have clearly aligned themselves, not with their own people at their own cities, i'm tried, but with, with foreign powers, they pick and choose between britain, france by the 8th, or germany, or any country. this will only lengthen the crisis and libya as lamb is not against collaboration and understanding
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with the international community wants to stablish the rim and strong libya that can have been official relationships with everyone in africa and in europe as well. but no prospect of a deal with, with his father's old, the ally who then they say, will link to the ca with united. i will come out and eat for himself very soon. but my understanding from my discussions with him and other people around. 4 him and that he's heart is open for any libyan wants to truly create or bring back actually a, somewhere in libya for olivia if how do you even live in the nato back candidate? i mean, baby, when it was part the libyan government even before 2011,
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not in a high ranking position, and he was a business man involved in some developmental projects in the country. and we know him very well. and if he decides to work for a united southern country as he goes back to his roots as a truly being citizen, back as a patient in the libyan process of development in the ninety's and the 2000, then he is one of them. you see, we are not against individuals. we are against agenda. if you work for a liberated these for him. okay, i think libya, then we work with you. but the problem is, isn't it given the interior minister and said that security threats in cyber put the christmas e election is in doubt? i'd have to are, has a kind of veto, only used to do is send fighters and then the interior minister in the g, and they will just go, i know elections of christmas eve. well, think about this,
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actually. it's the only candidate who is insisting that the elections should take place in 2 weeks time. every other candidate is hoping for the elections to be postponed. now everyone else, every, every kind of has security very good security. they have malicious with them. they have armed groups, different islam is the only one who does not have malicious supporting him. i'm 2 groups and he, it with the security situation being very hard. 5 for him, he insist a support the elections on the 24th of december. this is because he is so confident that the libyan people as well will be victorious. why the others are scared of the piece for you. but if you can seen, and they want to postpone the elections so they can make agreements with each other, they can consult. therefore in start as they can come back with the new ideas. so
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listen that a stay in power. i was there groups in the east and the west of the country, quite apart from the military and catastrophe in libya, the thousands untold thousands drowning in the mediterranean since britain bomb your country along the channel with england and france as it beat any contact between the good every campaign and the total. any or shell? i mean it's refugees, but it's also about oil on the mediterranean. that's why you presumably unsafe, believe britain bombed and the stabilized libya in the 1st place. not about humanitarian intervention at all. is no secret that libya was formed because of its a free can liberation project. and because of what he did inside libya, in terms of liberating the libyan economy, liberating the oil from 4 in control in the future. we seek
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to bring back libya that, that is for libyans is of course, does not mean that we seek style or ations with the west or the east. we seek to work with our out rather this we new contact rather than as we no contact here, as i understand. and we spoke to the boss of black petroleum b, and i denied that. he denied it was about a is in lithia, they have their guys and i'm hoping for either candidates to win over. but i assure everyone that they're in the newly, via, when islam reaches the position of the president, this new libya will be a piece for land and a member of the international community which would include economical gratian political corporation. but all based on a sovereign country, not on
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a satellite country belonging to the western powers of izzy nato nations deny that they have ever wanted to control the oil. it was all about humanity. i'm going to ask you, given that you are information minister to mama get effie and he was of course, brutally murdered on on camera. we're, we're, we're going to actually be talking to someone about thomas and car or the quino far so leader who was a voice for the global south was assassinated for some people said link to the see i have this biography says that it was a good efie who said, you have to eliminate sign kara, according to libby an interpreter. things are going well with her, and the u. s. embassy reported it. he was disaffected with sunk are included on the plan killing because son car would want to see to live in demands for someone who is behind the green movement on the liberation of africa. you believe that your old
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boss had anything to do with the killing of africa, che guevara reputedly? absolutely not. i actually even consulted with the leaders who worked with my son comp is com, probably, and other african leaders from the late seventy's out of the eighty's. we supported the revolutionary movement and working our fast so for years and years and the illusion that the leaders of working on a train in libya, in typically under the supervision of daffy himself. from the very beginning, we realized that there were internal conflicts between the leaders of the board. i solution and we tried our best to the extent that we condition our support and held on the intent on conflicts being eliminated and the unity of that illusion. but as time passed, it clearly as well as to the tribe and stuck child 14, if i so,
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and different conflicting interests of the revolutionary leader is that the assassination of mass and kind of took place that he was very upset and very sad. but what happened, but of course, decided to continue supporting a lucian and book you know, fossil because with our sadness for the loss of santa we had to continue the project of the african liberation. and we did that for many years to come. so this is just that, that he wasn't low and the assassination of such a great african leader is that it was abraham. thank you. thank you very much. actually after the break with 3 and a half 1000000, be in need of humanitarian assistance in the west african nation. it became a faster this christmas eve, africa che guevara, thomas and kara had not been assassinated,
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and who killed him. we investigate all of them all coming up a pot to have going underground. ah, the west relations with russia already record lows and there is no reason to believe this will change any time soon, however, is a grand bargain possible as some i'm suggesting also as a bait of join a song being c o. right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food. this is cathy and sugary and salty and addicted. not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change this obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm hm. what's
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driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate in scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. can we distinguish? the real signs from the one being imposed upon us, we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in fighting information, fighting scientific evidence, and discrediting even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals, launch corporations, a challenge strongly by scientific evidence. if you're emotionally invested and free markets, them climate change is a serious emotional threat because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries are on the war bond attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science,
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fighting science. that's how ignorance is manufactured, their attention only seeking to the rail science ruling using cy against itself. with welcome back. in the past few days, a prime minister affiliated to an ex president of the west african mineral rich nation of became a fair so suddenly resigned. christoph debir, i worked with blaze compar, whoever, through a man known as african che guevara, thomas and cora. joining me now from new york is his biographer, brian peterson, who's booked on the san cholera. a revolutionary and cold war africa is out. now. thank you so much, brian. for coming on just before we get to the man man himself, we were talking to the information minister of mammography. now advising safe gadhafi ahead of christmas eve elections in libya. he category me denies any
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libyan involvement in the assassination of thomas and kara, before we get to who he is, why in your book do you claim lots of links to were? so the statements, one saying the elimination of st. kara was on the market of his raider. where do you get all that from given? we've had this denial. yeah, i mean, i've, i've, you know, read through a lot of us embassy cables and talk to revolutionary leadership. a lot of the colleagues, us and car from us. the car's uncle was the listen car was actually broken, ave ambassador to libya during the revolution and was, was very close to lot of the action it was going on there. and we know is it, you know, some cars relationship changed over time with you. i mean, initially cannot be tried to, you know, helps, and car resolves, certain economic problems cannot be helped us on car take power by providing weapons via gonna and you know, so the relationship was pretty solid initially,
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but it deteriorated rather rapidly and, and, and mainly because some car didn't want to allow libya using berks burkina as a training base for a plan to warn liberia. and also some car refuse to accept the green book to sort of a guiding source. so you know, cut out, he was taylor, and also you mentioned that i'd want to hear it. i better say this in a donation media. we don't even hear about africa except as regards charity and and g o z and basically they're poor. we see the loads of minerals, 4th largest gold exporter in, in africa, and i'm sure they will be campaigns, given the 2700000 have been forced to free their homes, 30 and 4400000 in need of humanitarian assistance. today, ad of ad of christmas, you're gonna have to tell us a, you know, the pandemic. mm hm. catalyzed, concerned about i m f, restructuring plans of health services, who, who was thomas and kara. and why i suppose most relevant today to the global south
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as we suffolk, sharon of iris. why did he detest the idea of age from rich countries? i think that it was, you know, part of his policy to, you know, bring about a fair society, right. and so he had a vision that was very global and orientation. he saw the poverty, you know, in his country being rude and corruption that facilitated by french, neo colonialism by extension. what, what he called imperialism which is to say, the capitalist world economy. and so, you know, he was fighting and the ways in which, you know, france used economic, military power in africa to maintain control over resource and political systems. and so obviously he blames, you know, the internal leadership, you know, but he soccer ups as being in strictly linked imperialism. and so, you know, he was obviously taking on the world capital a system, a system that you know, had ensnared african countries in indebtedness. and so he took a stand against the repayment of the went back to the colonial period. so they're paying, you know,
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high interest rates like 20 percent interest rates on loans and debt. and so, you know, car wasn't against honoring debt, but he was against illegal or immoral debts that have been accrued by for our leaders. so actually, you know, i mean, he argued that france of africa money, you know, so he was calling for african countries to come together in the united front to oppose debt repayment. while the i m f, a r a because of cove it relaxing, some of the debt repayment. you mention france. i don't know whether there was front trench involvement in this so called african che guevara. when you're writing this book, we you surprise the trans? yeah, i mean, you got us cables that france still wants to keep sun, kara, and kara darcy, a secret. now, i mean, i'm not surprised at all. what do they know? i, it's a good question. i mean, in terms of francis roll, i mean in the crew of october 15, 1970. we have to see the evidence obviously. and what i've seen in the u. s.
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embassy cables and often talking to over a 100 people, is that, you know, frances, continually seeking to undermine the revolution. and what i see in the u. s. documents is this, this pattern of french interventions along the line to undermine the revolution, tv stabilized revolution. and eventually hoping to remove the car from power. i mean, we know that, you know, that the french government was considering military interventions from san car, from power. just a couple months after he took our himself. and so their concerns were very broad. i mean they were concerned about what was going on in shad libby involvement in the in the region. and shad oddison area of cooperation with americans are they weren't really not concerned about soviet expansion in the region, but they were concerned about libyan canal fi in shad, especially in west africa. i. and so we also have to acknowledge, you know, the neighboring countries called people, and molly were very concerned about the threat of the, the revolution this, of the contagion of the revolution lead way. can they come out of your book as the u. s. proxies i have to say, and you, you know, it's,
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i might say you're suspiciously nice to the cia in the sense that they see he's capricious with good afternoon libya. gorbachev doesn't like him very much and ok, washington politicians don't, likes ankara, but he doesn't pose a threat to cia activities in africa. i mean, you know, this is an extension of your sworn policy and we know that during the reagan administration, i mean, they just effort to roll back the so called threat of communism. and so they saw san car, you know, hanging out. fidel castro remark adolphe and they were alarm, and so for the americans and for the french, you know, the red line was really the expansion libyan influence. i mean, so they took, they took, they were there, they're hostile towards a car. there's no question about it. you didn't have major economic interest in burkina faso and they cut most the funding. the piece cor was gone, they've been expelled by some car. so, you know, i think that, you know, there's a hostility was there. i don't see evidence that the cia had a sort of a guiding hand in assassination of some car. i haven't seen evidence of that. and
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let me just added that some car was very diplomatically isolated during the final period. i mean, compar, i took advantage of that and you had a large number can be soldiers for part of us growing into some carfax, within the military that saw your state power as a path to self enrichment. he was really trying to oppose that. so he was fighting against corruption, and soldier saw a chance to make the most of being in power. yeah, i mean, clearly a humble man given what you say about his own life and the importance of fighting corruption. how you do say, michel, candace, who of the i m f. back then i met him once and the u. s. embassy in the year. bob, who is there pressured him to accept new liberal policies. he refused, but at the same time he and even jerry law rawlings, his thought was quite a good african lee. they died about a year ago in ghana. they were all they were getting aid. i mean, the st car are getting aid from paris as opposed to the washington
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d. c. i m f o. well bank. right? i mean it's, it's true and it's, it's, i'm, and i appreciate you complicating the story because it is, it is very complex. so many different points in history, france actually tried to work with some current, even tolerated quite a bit of revolutionary rhetoric targeting france. but yes, a car expected to be treated as an equal, as a peer head of state, you know, a fully sovereign country. so, you know, he refused to accept his country, being a vassal in this neo colonial relationship. and so some car, i mean, he knew that he couldn't break with, with france completely. i mean is seen are the revolutionary state, was still depending on foreign aid, as you suggest there, especially from france, about 3040 percent of the state budget came from france. right. so a transition to greater sovereignty to greater. you know, i'll talk you and i was going to take time, you know, in 4 short years i just wasn't possible. and so, you know, my research shows that it was in cars reluctance to accept. and i remember green 1970 eventually led to many of the economic problems and a lot of political support within it. the seen are and so he was hemorrhaging
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internal allies eventually not made easy for, for compar to take our what if anything was watching this became of us are thinking of starting a revolution like thing, cars, i suppose they should be informed that african joe biden soldiers are probably there right now. what do you think? um, what you think sicaro would think of the fact that africa, us soldiers a tramping down down the country, especially in relation to the fact that he knew. and he took inspiration from cobra, the crewman. lemme something in common with all these people, che guevara, that the, the marches as it were, of anti imperialist ideas in the global south. i mean, i mean, he was an anti imperialist. there's no question about it. i mean, he, he saw imperialism in a very more sort of complex way. i mean, you know, one of his, when in one of his major stays on appeal in imperialism is more of a cultural thing. i mean, obviously there were troop landings. there were military interventions, those things were all a concern. i mean, didn't, he didn't see, you know, bertina faso is potentially dealing with the military invasion by the united states
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along the lines of granada or other place in the world, nicaragua, at the time. but i think that if you saw it was going on and burkina faso today is you're suggesting, i think he'd be deeply trouble. and i think you'd be wanting the country to come together to deal with insurgency in the northern parts of virginia fossa, without the help of say, france, united states with which in many ways and just made the problem a lot worse. i mean, on the other side of the country, eritrea now allied with the v o, b, a fighting a valuable nation back t p l f. in to grey. there's food security in eritrea pursuing an independent path with all the caveats that he thank ira did take 8. he took usaid really gimme the things that are not associated with great revolutionary and ever after all, um, do you believe that it is legacy really lives on the fact that he wanted more participation from women in african societies all across the continent. and his
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obsession with environmental politics, which arguably would fit in with good effie and the importance of green politics. yeah, i mean, i think those are really, really good points. i mean, i think that he has the car had a certain kind of vision of society, almost of utopian vision. you know, $11.00 in which you know, women to be equal to man. and which, you know, the citizens would be good custodians of their natural environment. as you're suggesting, he was in the kitchen. yeah, i mean, i think there was a lot of pushback against that. i mean, you had this head of state who was preaching feminine discourse and lobbying and pushing for women's liberation. but you had a kind of, a patriarchy from below that was, was responding to that. so it, it actually was a huge liability for him. and he didn't have a very strong male constituency, behind in the backing is feminist policy. but certainly that was one of the main pillars of the revolution was, was liberating women. and he went away, i don't align with this. and, you know, i think that, you know, one of the reasons why he's so popular today and, and why he has
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a certain kind of legacy in a rather pressure one that you're mentioning, their respect to environmentalism, feminism taking on the challenging debt repayment, those sorts of things i mean to the certain saliency there, that you see absent and other political figures from that era. i mean, obviously the situation that this christmas looks had to be terrifying. i suppose, a thought experiment. he was always supporting the anti apartheid struggle in south africa to building nelson mandela when he was in jail. if mandela had been released before his assassination during south african troops could have supported him and the story might have been different and millions of people wouldn't be starving. this chris was in beginning it's difficult to say, i mean, you know, when, when, when police compared to power, he didn't depend on any foreign troops. right? i mean, at the time, you know, because the franco burke and i'll be defense agreements, he only had like 25 french troops. who are there, there are,
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there is trainers or the national on the remaining burbridge law. so, you didn't have troops intervening, anything offered if you didn't have a library interest, it was mainly to pull them, but the military muscle of a computer that enables him to take power. i do think, however, if you did have troops, you know, being entered, you know, on the other side of things that could have kept the balance on car, say, or arguably, if you decided to play by the neo liberal rule of the game that the united states and france were trying to foist on my car. he probably still be in power to the day or and if he was corrupt and issues, crump good point. yeah. isn't. thank you. thank you so much. that's over the show will be back on wednesday when we investigate political violence. and colonial rule was one of the greatest living public intellectuals, my mood mom, donnie, until then, even touch my social media and tell us who you think murdered thomas on car. ah, i just financial survival guy would go through go by, you reduce the price,
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didn't el, reduce the lower that's under got it. but what's good for food market? it's not good for the global economy. blue right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or. busy obese, it's profitable to sell food that he's fancy and sugary and salty, and the dictum. it's not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that never change this obesity epidemic, that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment for what's driving the obesity epidemic. it's corporate in a
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the pentagon says it won't hold anyone liable for a botched drone strike at august that killed 10 civilians including 7 children just a day before the u. s. finished, it's pull out from afghanistan. vladimir putin calls for immediate talks to stop further nato expansion towards russia's borders and a telephone conversation with british minister boris johnson. that's a made ongoing speculation over the situation. ukraine and accusations towards russia up to $100.00 are feared dead after tornadoes ripped through central and southern parts of the united states. but the disaster also underlines the country's deep political divide with some politicians already trying to score points from the tragedy. ah.

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