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tv   Going Underground  RT  December 11, 2021 2:30pm-3:01pm EST

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illegal immigration and that's how it's he's well these attend with me, kevin now and thanks for watching this. we can stand by for various programs and your part of the world here. after the break you ah. ah i ah with i'm ashley resent senior wasn't going on the run 57 years to the day, the che guevara address. the united nations coming up in the show is u. s. president joe biden playing chicken in kiev hours after abiding self styled
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democracy summit condemned in china and in the week of the putin biden summit. what chances of nuclear war we don't do, you know, we don't rule out 1st use nuclear action, and apocalypse again or doomsday delayed as us politicians argue for nuclear strikes on russia. we explore why and times a predicted time and time again, and who see all of them all coming up in today's going underground at 1st 57 years ago today, che guevara addressed the un general assembly during the height of the so called cold war. and this week vladimir putin and joe biden, arguably try to avoid nuclear war in a private virtual summit between the 2 supervisors. these are nation media predictably centered on ukraine rather than the legacy of failed was in iraq, afghanistan, syria, and libya. joining me now from canterbury is kent university's professor of russian and european politics and the author of the pigeon paradox. professor richard sackler. thank you so much. sure. profess tacro for coming back on. we're actually talking about armageddon and bought 2 of this show bible and i just finished
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democracy. summit selected the democrats being invited there to virtual as some it you said last time you were on going underground. that biden would be an exceptionally dangerous leader. i'm endorsed by the washington security establishment. you said aside from him sending liam 7th fleet. i think it is to china along with the british washer being sent there. obviously the 6th fleet in the black sea right now. what do you think about it in the context of russia imminently about to invade ukraine? what do you think of the virtual putin biden summit this week? well, when we last spoke, i think we were anticipating what the biden currency was going to look like. and it's early days, what is actually happened since it is now coming to the end of his 1st year in office and what's emerged is that term, even though he is, you know,
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a long time individual dealing with a foreign affairs at, in income u. s. d u. s. congress and vice president. he's turned out to be a bit of a more mixed picture it. so what's important is that he has engaged with putting in with russia twice. there was the june 20 this year's summit in geneva, which it was important for establishing 2 things and arms control process and cyber or some sort of perfume work for managing cyber conflict. and of course the virtual summit that this this week. so it's, it's important that he's actually talking, i think the big picture is, is that the idea was that they would stabilize the relations with russia and then focus on the conflict with china. you mentioned interestingly, just not, you talked about 57 years ago. the so called code war, it was not,
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it was not so cold, it was the cold war. and of course i meant i meant so cold because it was hot for many of the developing world in the glass. oh, in that sense? absolutely. in that sense, it was pretty hot in all sorts of places, of course, the vietnam war except you. but it was ultimately a cold war in that the major powers did not come in to get confrontation. i argue that that was indeed cold or one. and that we're now in cold war 2 because of the unsolved unresolved issues at the end of the 1st congo after 108991. and of course, that's how we need to understand the ukraine crisis today in that context because no inclusive equitable piece order was established after 1991. and instead of which the atlantic power system nato. and of course, the european union both advanced and in the sense it wasn't so much the enlargement
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of these 2 organizations. it is the way it was done, which has established a negative security dilemma. or let's put it this way and intensifying security dilemma in which russia feels more and more challenged. and this is what the crisis over you going today is all about. well, as you know from a more hawkish share, think tanks here in london, let alone across the pond in the united states. they probably reject that kind of analysis. after all, what we have here is a question of what a 120000 of hooton's troops on the border with that ukraine. we talked last time of the script. paul's, we talk about human rights abuses in russia, in good in russia. are we talking about am, what rusher is exerting as a malign influence around the world? the occupation of crimea, as is constantly
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a constant reminder on an nation media. you see, you don't see it as a even, or do you see this article or 2 that we should have where these one us politicians send it to roger wicker 2nd, eyes ranking republican on the armed services committee and congress saying that we mustn't rule out the 1st use, i 1st used nuclear strike on russia and was he, britain is a nuclear power, as well as to nuclear power versus moscow. well engaged. this is just that sort of crazy talk is just a sign of just how weird and how dangerous the 2nd cold war is. because i don't think you'd have had many people talking in fact to loose and wild manner in cold war one, which was a more disciplined conflict. a more cry, a more straightforward one, communism versus capitalism, 2 blocks power to power blocks. it seemed to be so much simpler, almost naive in those days. the 2nd cold war. you're absolutely right that,
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you know, defenders of nato enlargement will argue that it's benign and that it, nothing. there's nothing for russia to be concerned about. now, you know, i've always sat suggested that is, you know, that that's a valid argument is absolutely no reason why nato could not have been lodged. but the point was that ultimately there had to be a way in which the enlargement dealt with the russia security question. now it's not a question of pretend it's not a question or whoever comes after him because it also concerned who came before him . yeltsin and measured it. and of course, whoever comes out to head, it's a finding a sorry to interrupt them, but there's no written evidence that james baker gave an undertaking to the russians. that nato would not expand eastwards as a there is pine cio heating evidence, survey surveillance guy. i know the national archives material show not only james baker on, in february 1090, but a dozen western leaders said the same thing. plenty of documentary evidence in the
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memoirs. and in the minutes of those meetings, there was no tracy of course. so that in that sense, no, it was not formally made as a political so plenty of written evidence, no substantive negotiated drawing, catastrophic error in the whole history of states. since of all of the roman empire committee by russia. and hasn't putin committing yet another mistake, allowing it to get to the stage where he's worried about the russian rushes biggest naval base and the poring over weston arms and, and troops? i mean, i don't know why they're on the us. national guard troops are from california are already in ukraine, british troops, apparently on stand by descent, $600.00 special forces. how to put and get into position like this, forgetting the errors made by go, but you haven't yelton. yes indeed. i'm included, just stand off at the moment. is, you know,
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on the one side you couldn't hear in some people have argued, it's as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis. in october 1962. i don't think it's quite at that level. but what it does show is that to, you know, the for, this is the 2nd time this year that has been this military builder. i gotcha. of course you mentioned one figure. we don't know what the figures are. they seem to vary between 70000 and a 120, if not 850000, but certainly to our forces along the border. i was saying that we're hearing daily in a donation. meteor about numbers of troops and munitions and the pas personnel and the material. yes, i mean these numbers, as you say, keep changing and don't forget, the whole issue began in washington at 1st the, in the, you know, the how you can, you know, for the care of leadership. i'm dismissed at an event that now joined it. you know, i'm talking about a few weeks ago. it's a very interesting, i'm going to say one word about the suggestible base. it isn't just
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a question of nato enlargement, of course, because even nato enlargement was off the agenda at the time of the obama presidency. yet we're talking about the fact that the u. s. forces will be, as it were, defacto part of it will be advancing into you again already this is putting, made this point in his bow our speech in october. and of course, he's not the only one to pointed out that nato enlargement is only one part of the advancement of an atlantic power system which excludes russia. so as i say, you know, what's happening now is that russia is pushing back in his state of the nation speech earlier this year. putting argue this was an april, he took that red lines. and so what's happening there is quite clearly the ukrainian crisis is an impasse and that, and this is why i'm to say it was positive that in the by didn't put in virtual meeting earlier this week that this was talked about. and he said
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no red lines biden will not accept. and he was the redlands, they weren't exactly is guidelines by putting whether they accept them or not. they're awesome. i. and the question, is that, what does the russia do about it? you know, i don't think, i mean, clearly invasion talk i think is while talk as gotcha is not planning to invade. in part, this was a plan to move in case there was going to be a push against on bass. but even that was unlikely. but what we're now seeing is an attempt to, if you like to cut the ukrainian gordian knot, that in minsk, that the game and on the stages of don bass is not going to be implemented. then let's find a way of trying to deal with this issue so that we don't get into this question again. women's hasn't mentioned much on nater nation media. i don't know about whether that leaders like by blue bars, johnson,
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nato leaders or pressured by the military industrial complex people are making money out of all of this, of course, the arms makers. but i don't know whether a zalinski is under pressure from the hard, right, right, sector, neo nazis. and this a in p of i better just quickly go to this threat of economic warfare, which it certainly as seems much more in horizon than in a nuclear strike. what can the russia do? i mean, what will it do? team up more with china. if it's a fab western authorities stop the swifter banking transfer scheme, whereby all businesses are able to trade money and send money abroad. what, what is putin to do? isn't this a massive own goal for sending in all these troops to the border rather than actually a vic, trevor booting and getting by them to the table virtual table? well, all these are, all these moves are threatened if russia invades, but since russia has no intention of invading unless, of course, you can move 1st, then these measures are hopefully won't take place. and of course, in addition to the list you've mentioned,
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there's nordstrom to that already it's being sanctioned, even without an invasion. it's been delayed by several years. and even now it's, you know, they, they will, i mean, jump the idea of defending yourself by cutting off your own gas supplies. what do you think? you don't think the new chancellor sholtes will will, will he just b roll over to the united states and stop energy security for germany and western europe? yeah, well this is in addition, 6 and stopping. it was increasing energy security and date by and showing more direct supplies and of course supply some yano which of course is far to the north of the ukrainian plank system. so yes, well indeed, date new german government has been signed in the 2nd week of december this year. so we'll have to see because the chancellor schultz, i would imagine we'll want to continue the pipeline. but don't forget, his foreign minister is that the lee,
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one of the coat ages of the kings who in the past has spoken against it. but of course, in our face, and this was an issue, carefully avoided in a, in, over a 100 pages of the coalition agreement. but yeah, it's an important issue. obviously, the big question is, why is the united states so concerned about european energy security? when, when would have thought europeans could handle that issue themselves? promise, richardson, thank you. ok. after the break, nuclear war play climate disaster his judgment day approaching or hasn't been misjudged again. we examined the history of the end of the world. all this more coming up got to have going undergrad. ah, join me every thursday on the alex salmon shore and i'll be speaking to guess from
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the world of politics, sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. oh right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that is fatty and sugary and salty and addicted. not at the individual level. it's not individual well power. and if we go on believing that will never change is obesity. epidemic that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm hm. what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate. ah welcome back 24 years ago to day kyoto protocols were sun in an attempt to prevent
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climate. catastrophe could be argued that the continuing climate crisis represents just one of the force horsemen of the apocalypse, that a bearing down on the 21st century alongside nuclear war, a global pandemic and famines created by new liberal policies. what better time for the end times again, 2000 years of the use and misuse of biblical prophecy? the new book by martin whitlock, who joins me now for both in england. thank you so much, martin for coming back on. you know, we have a new german chancellor, earl of schultz, a huge influence on the european union. there you better begin like you begin in the book about dissuading us of the you. parliament is not modeled on the tower of babel and there is no missing seat 666 dead all or it's deliberately kept empty in the european parliament in strasburg. yes, i can. i can reassure you about that. i was quite astonished in 2016 when i was part of organizing a meeting at west country time and looking at the arguments for the gates membership of the you. and we got in the and some extraordinary debates about
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people make accusations about it was much christian churches. i don't see many people that talked about economics and, and the politics of it. and so i've got some people that were, were very impressed and about the fact that the european union, they thought represented a new form of the 4th kingdom of daniel and ret, reflective things in revelation. and there was this, this, this disk accusations that, that align the seat 66 is kept free and ready for the anti christ. i was astonished by this a many of the other people. i was with his astonished but i shouldn't have been astonished because i have a back story in this. i was a kid on the 1970. i read the american books like late, great kind of earth by how lindsay another. and i was very much into this in the 19 seventies and felt that i was doing very much in the end times. we may yet be during the time i'm done. okay. convinced that within the christian church, this is very often a problematic area because although it's a core belief,
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the problem comes when people assure they are in the end times and start interrupting events as being due to biblical prophecy being fulfilled. and they may, will be right in some cases, but in other cases they can be woefully wrong as 2000 years of history are shown. so i was, i was shocked to that meeting. i wrote this book party as a wake up call to people to just be cautious in how they approach the core area of christian belief. well, i mean there are plenty of you is out there who probably think we are in, in times and probably do think the european union is a satanic. i don't know much more seriously. as we approached, i christmas looking to the holy land bethlehem. you contend the trump's decision to move the u. s. embassy to jerusalem amidst all the ongoing violence or because we've had a riff violence in may this year at the support for israel, occupational series golan heights. this is not for you for a united states or jewish people. it is for the even jellicoe people. that's what
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that's all about us is raining jumps on the record of saying that he is supporting these areas. does not come from american jewish but they come from members of what we might in the evangelical, right. i evangelicals within the u. s. a who see israel as a fulfillment of prophecy, and therefore see what can sometimes amount to unquestioning support for, for actions by as early as radio administrations as being in line with that support for prophecy. and it is quite clear that when trump moved the embassy, i'm not support full as a santee over the golan heights. he was not, he was not appealing to american jews. he was appealing to us evangelicals who, of course, as we noticed, something lightened 53000000 voted for him. 81 percent of wife juggles urged for
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him. but in 2016 and in 2020. so he was appealing to a call based there who basically view middle eastern politics you through and what you might call an eschatological lens. and clearly see trump for is for some filings are delivering in this area. so this, this is the logical position has come. so quite extraordinary impacts on modern geo politics. yeah, you who you cite the wasn't both quoted based about 33000000 voters, but even the creation of the state of israel and 48, i did presage the 2nd coming of of christ. but in venice to trump, who are going to that citation meant that he kind of knew this is to tit for electoral reasons. jump and bind their support of israel. i mean just the other day this week, a little care in syria, the resort town was bombed by israel in fans to us feet as they come in a long line of leaders around the world in history. charlemagne, use a pope herb and the 2nd frederick the 2nd. who used the apocalypse?
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yes indeed. and basically within christianity, as when it asked within his long, there is a belief in the end times. are they the the 2nd coming of cry? the coming of the, of the saw in islam, but obviously within, within christianity, there is a core belief that christ will return again. and although actually the new testament counsels in fact mom that we're not the guest the times, not the estimate the times. nevertheless, christians find it very difficult not to do so they kind of be tempted to do so. our curiosity, i'm going to just look also wanting to see happen on the call. the problem with that is instead of waiting patiently for something that's in gods hands, one tends to interpret the signs of the times in one's own day. i want to see 2000 years of mistake in speculation, of errors, literally from the end of the roman empire through to them the viking attacks, look, god is being out for us and to create them migrant. asians. you can imagine what
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people sang during the crusades. is this tussle between christ out in his long and how islam was regarded as being then in league with anti christ. from the crusade point to view, it exploded again during the reformation and when christianity fractured and then you can see posters calling the pope. i'm to christ, for example, it was very, very big in the english revolution, this country. it then goes quiet for a while and explodes again in the 20th century. where since the 2nd world war, in many ways, particularly united states, it has become, what we might call a, an s, gotten logical counterpart to the cold war politics that we divide in the middle east and divide in the world. now, after 945 famously, famously gorbachev seen as president that yeah, you mentioned the english revolution. i thought the dig as in 1649 were revolutionary, didn't believe in god, but you,
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you say something different there. but actually when it comes to revolutionary politics, you say that there are people who say that the later church may have a finesse to jesus his message to say, whereas a jesus, it was talking about the end times in his own life. the end of the temple they may, for instance, had just where it's further away the apocalypse. well, no, no certainly debates, monks, biblical scholars as to what was meant by jesus teaching about the end times. and clearly it does appear to be many layered ah, some part of it simply talking about coming catastrophe with regard to conflict with rome. and nevertheless, as he talks about himself as being like the son of man and daniel, he was look talking in eschatological terms, talking about that the longer term as well. one, michael cosmic change. but what's really interesting is that within the new testament there a clear commands not to guess the times to leave it to god, to not touch what to predict the times. but it was, it was as soon as the canada scripture is closed from 2nd or 3rd sent you onward.
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we see people understandably, of course, because they're looking forward to this beginning to interpret their own times as fulfills the prophecy. and beginning a process of erroneous miscalculations and erroneous speculations, which lasted for 2000 years. so the kind of caution that new testament commands is often not the experience of ordinary people. yeah, but since this 33 minute arguably exert a disproportionate electoral influence on the superpower. and as you say, a george w bush are believed in the literal that the literal accuracy of a end times predictions of what does that mean for a nuclear weapons use in climate crisis policies, brazil that, that grew believe that you get violence in the middle east you get a new, the confrontation, you get a climate crisis. this is all
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a critical foretold. it can be very, very alarming. because if in fact you believe that you are fat on the brink of your pockets, if you like, of, of armageddon. them far from working for peace and harmony in saying if it doesn't work, at least it wasn't me that come to be towards it not working out. there can be that can be a dangerous tendency to step back to let things run to even if you like in courage of the apocalypse. i think one of the things we find within the american right is for example, on a refusal to engage with climate change. after all, it would have no future and why not be, you know, the why get engage with climate change on the that may be part of the plan for the times. that can be a distrust of nuclear disarmament. as i remember people saying these kind of things in 1980 for example. well, if this is going to lead to armageddon, then we shouldn't be kind of like stopping as it were. so they can be
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a very dangerous trend within particularly even alco roy in the states, but can almost be looking towards armageddon. and so he doing nothing to if you like, slow it down or, or, or to diffuse conflict. i think that is a very dangerous area. and it can, it can in fact encourage escalation of conflict almost as if people feel that they are kind of hurrying along the end times. and it reminds us that we do not live in a secular world as we sometimes think that we do and, and it's interesting how it can be used by left and right. you mentioned catholic liberation, theology of is in latin america. revolutionary ideas that draw something of the apocalypse, but in terms of class we're a you, you do say that 8 can encourage passivity. those empowers, empower, can say, we have climate, don't do anything about. yes, it's quite intriguing because it would be wrong to say that belief in
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n times necessarily goes along with passivity or that it goes along with brightening politics. that would just not be correct. you can find time again again in the history of eschatology in the christian church when it has accompanied radicalism, the sense of building the king on earth are over throwing the world in order to establish a kingdom of justice. you mentioned the diggers, monarchy man in the 17th century rebels during the german peasants war in the 16th century and so on, so forth. so it is not a foregone conclusion. that is a back passivity or even allowing imperialism and violence. but it, but it is certainly taken that turn, particularly in the usa since the 2nd world war on what worries me is that what's happened in the usa since the 2nd world war is it has become, if you like, a, an accompaniment to cold war politics. and the kind of divisive polarized politics
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that have continued with the end of the cold war. and that i think is, is, is so in, not in line with you testament radical radicalism. we talked about justice and talked about the care for the poor and talked about, you know, blessedly, the peacemakers and so on. i think it's not in mind that, but too often it is in line with imperialistic, militaristic outlooks which see themselves as being if you like, the ones who are encouraging your pockets. i think that that's not the inevitable outworking of eschatological belief, but that is where we are at the moment with regard particularly to the american evangelical. right. and that is, i think an area of real concern loving with that give, thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday, 18 years to the day iraqi president, saddam hussein was captured by us forces as part of an a donation war. the killed wounded, displaced tens of millions until then keep in touch my social media and tell us whether you think the n times more like now, than ever before. ah,
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ah. you as president joe biden is hosting a virtual global summit on democracy. apparently, washington intends a new we said to save the world for democracy, at least as the foreign policy blob understands this political term. critics of this claim,
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it's all about strategic polarization and an attempt at values based diplomacy the world has really turned upside down. and what we see now is blade and when was the last time you had a verifiable truth from the united states government that they put out to the public is being called a dark day for journalism. the julianna's sanchez support is lashing out of the london high court rulings will allow, is possible expedition to the united states. yet another hearings now needed to decide his fate. we all in our shop to return to diplomacy and to the escalating the west of his russia to take the heat out of the ukrainian crisis while sending at the same time $60000000.00 worth of military atm and is reportedly considering more plus the curious tale of the american 1000000000 it.

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