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tv   Cross Talk  RT  July 9, 2021 10:30am-11:01am EDT

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top stories in half. no. i i i hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. alas, the end appears to be near washington's 20 year effort to nation building f denison was always going to end this way. a complete and total failure, it is doubtful. the corrupt government in kabul will last long after the american withdrawal have denise and remains broken and the american people poor and no one is held to account the
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cross talking up dentist. and i'm joined by my guess, marvin wind bomb in washington. he is director of afghanistan and pakistan studies at the middle east institute in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and the united nations weapons inspector. and in kabul, we have will start with him, he is a conflict, peace and security expert or a gentleman, cross talk, rules and effects. that means he can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate when you go to scott, 1st, many of us watching this conflict for 2 decades expected this outcome was only the dates that mattered most here. made my introduction, i said, i call it a complete and utter failure. the american people are poor and no one is held account. and if no one is held account, scott, then it's going to happen again. go ahead your thoughts. of course it's going to happen again. it's in the it's, it's in the d. n a or the united states. so when we intervene, we intervene using
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a american centered template that is designed to placate domestic political factions. here in the united states, not to solve problems overseas, we've seen this almost everywhere. united states intervenes afghanistan was doomed to fail from the start because we didn't respect our student, tribal sensitivity as partial wally. nothing we, we didn't understand the area we came in. we impose our will and then we start to build f ganesha in. in, in our model, especially their military. i mean, what we try to do is, is build a miniature united states army of miniature united states, security services, trained equip, like u. s. military. and they can't function. why? because you can't take it american style, military templates, and impose on corruption. and that's what we have. we have generals who inflate
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their rank still money to treat their soldiers poorly. there's no motivation at the end of the day of the soldiers, not willing to die for a cause. then the army that she's part of isn't going to fight, and that's where we see the united states without a touch. we've had military leaders who have deceived themselves and deceive their civilian leadership and saying that they have a solution. and yet every year, every 2 years, we rotate these military years out defeated. we rotate a new series of military leaders. we say the same thing. time with us become obvious, we weren't going to when we weren't going to prevail and it's time to leave. it's going to be ugly. going to be very ugly. the only way to get out my stuck and let me go to and you and couple, i mean we all we, this was known, this was known to the politicians and this was known to be american military. all you have to do is to read the asking papers and it was one big cover, up sham corruption operation. and we know it. if this is knowable, fax,
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it's in the afghan papers. it didn't get enough coverage and the mainstream media. but this is knowable information and they knew this from the very beginning. it wasn't something that slowly got out of control. it's your country, it's your government here. i mean, what are your reflections after 20 years? i mean, what has been accomplished here after through 2 trillion dollars, a $100000000000.00 to train the afghan army and police. and now we have reports on a daily basis. they're just dropping their arms and they're fleeing if they can, across the border. that's a lot of money down the drain here. what did you get for it? go ahead in kabul. what i thing it's a really harsh analysis or saying it has gone down or drawn or draw are green and everybody is dropping the guns. and i don't think that's the case. yes, we have had corruption prevailing, a lot of money has been spoilt. but that, that, that was expected in a, in a scenario where you, you have starting from scratch all on the ashes of the conflict left behind
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by the russian withdrawal and late eighties. that's hard to happen. we had the institutions and a lot of money was pump in all of the sudden. now let me come to the point of what is that we have achieved, mainly, you know, honest on and 2001 was in tatters. we had a civil war wing on whole of the country was a failure. and after 2001 institution was stablished, we have a democratic system established. we had 4 rounds of residential elections, 3 downs of parliament elections. provincial councils were selected elected. we have a large gallery of one strained at home and abroad on, on in the morning of more than institutions. we have a very strong special forces that are defending the country. i mean, dropping the arm is all around most talk. i mean it, hey hang on here,
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but there is growing reports. is that one providence after another falling to the taliban? after a 100? i'm sorry. excuse me. after a $100000000000.00. ok. all you see is the creep of the taliban. here i limits. let's get marvin into the, into the program here, marvin and washington can hang on. let's get, let me get. let's get everyone in the conversation 1st. then we can, you know, jump in. marvin, let me go to you. we have heard you have heard the program. so far, i know you probably don't agree with me or scott, your thoughts, my friend, please. i know i have differences with you in scott, not that would you say doesn't have some validity. but i think you've joined some of the conclusions 1st of all, when the international forces came in, remember, this was an international effort. this was not led to be sure what this was in the national weapon that was supported by the u. one. my point here being is when they came in, there was
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a great deal of support for the foreign forces. they didn't see them as occupiers at all because this life under the bond was rather sad. i was there when the only one for period when the troll problem and it was the proverbial graveyard. so it was a big change. and as we started pointed out that have been accomplishments, but there's no question at the ball was dropped. well, 1st of all, we went into iraq and that took pm. so we never really united states what contribution and those early days we are, we allowed the in churches to rebuild. and by the time we woke up to the fact that there was an insurgency that we would deep into iraq and did not respond and didn't really effectively respond until later. but it was already too
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late. they had established themselves within the country. let me just add to that much to pointed out a great deal was accomplished. this whole generation of guns came, you know, came into being here with an investment in this country, a strong investment. unfortunately, the leadership and to some extent the united states and some of his taxes, let them down. but don't ever get to says that the guns tribal society are not d r yearning to see the taller one return. because i mean to say what that is. because when you do, they're going to be millions of refugees, of people who cannot possibly survive in that kind of regime. ok, well scott, and i mean from what we've heard from our other guess here, there could have been other outcomes. it's very hard to convince me that could have
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been any other outcome than the one we're facing right now. after 20 years, after 2 trillion dollars after $100000000000.00 to train the military and the police force as a can you see in a counter argument how this could have been different because it seems to me that there is no other way to see the outcome that we seeing that we other than what we see now. go ahead, scott. well, in order for there to have been another outcome, we would have had to approach entry and afghanistan differently. meaning that, well, it doesn't mean that we embrace the radical elements of the taliban in their id. ology and how the govern. we needed to understand that there were, you know, there was a moderate taliban at the time. and had we engaged with the moderate taliban? and we in both the pastor wally it comes to, you know, and the sound in london saying, you know, and in speaking in the language of islam that you know, these are foreigners have betrayed the, the, the, the, the,
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the trust and confidence that the gains gave when they gave host to them that they, they betrayed them by attacking the united states. and we worked with, you know, atkins, neighbors, morgan in a more concerted trash and respectful of the fact that they live in the region. we don't, we might have been able to come up with an outcome that was different than what we have today, what, what, what's going to happen. but anytime that we see to impose our will, that we see to project american sensibilities an american way of doing business in a foreign land, especially one like afghanistan, you're doomed to fail. yes, many institutions were built. i don't disagree with this. i. we recognize that there are hundreds of thousands of afghans who are trained in the military, trained in the police force. we understand their institutions. but these institutions all exist with foundation and framework of provided by the united states. and now that we're withdrawing this framework and foundation is collaging,
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there's nothing there. well, i am saying this is scott, just to reinforce my question. i mean this is what happened to the british. this is what happened to the so we, it's why did the americans think it would be different? because we're american, man, we do it better. we always when, you know, we're very optimistic. whatever you want to say in the bottom line is we delude ourselves more often than not by believing that we alone have the solution. there is a humorous and ignorance on the part of the united states when it comes to international nations and especially the internal domestic realities of these nations. when we seek to impose our will. don't understand them. see them through a veil driven by domestic american politics. i mean, when you have to explain the congress what's going on, can spam not explaining the re, the about the dentist and you're explaining how we spend money in afghanistan. you create this artificial reality look at david portrays, is repeated testimony before congress will get it today. through the filter with
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reality that we know it today and you'll realize that he was lying and deceiving and just plain wrong about everything. look at the crystals counterinsurgency program. failure from the start wasn't going to succeed. but even if you didn't come in with a different military strategy or you're going to do is kill afghans more efficiently. that's not how you went to war. you went to war by getting the people tonight. we got to have the jump in here. i had to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break gentleman. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan. space with our the ah, ah, ah, ah,
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shoot, don't leave. it will move a new. she will tell which she was ready to love me because she knew she wouldn't be a little girl. but what i can do, i tell me that if you come to the traditional moving machines etc. if you see the one you need from me was over. she said for me and lasted with metro. okay, sure. yeah. the chest. so this is what i need from the new
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new new new which is the new i see executable football once he caught up on that got moved up when i got it up on that, got up on me . ah, people with the number raises, whether its not adequately managed or that they have some immune problem. then their risk of infections and something like the coven 19 pandemic, was very bad news. the people diabetes. and we consider it as one of the very high risk situations in terms of people being infected. ah
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ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, remind you we're discussing afghanistan. ah, okay, go back to much talking in kabul. i mean, let's, let's go back to the very, very beginning of all of this, the, the, the reason why the united states attacked and occupied afghanistan was because of the role that couple was involved with al qaeda in the attacks of september 11th. i think a counter of factual history could have come out very differently. per afghanistan . i'll kind of was there being given aid and comfort. it should have just been a police operation. go in, take care of that and then leave was occupation of the country absolutely necessary . because we listened to scott here, almost every other scenario you can think of. and i think all of this is actually
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been tried and with the same conclusion. so do you think it was a good idea and the 1st place to have african is span occupied by outsiders. go ahead and couple, you know, bob, i was not allowed to finish earlier. just a couple of sentences on that. don't look at things from black and white perspective, there's always an on an honest on as well. there are great areas. i want to proceed and response to the 1st question that there were significant mistakes. made the 1st and foremost during the born conference, a lot of leverage and space was given to the warlords. the taliban would not not engage in the conference. they are not going wider, did miss lamb, but then it was not. and why did? and that created a situation where a certain group was left out of the whole process and they felt like they had grievances better later on when americans came now coming back to the retrospect, you know, we can go further into retrospect and think of 19808990. when the russians left
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unilaterally, without consulting the partners here in cobbler had at that time and effort was made on international communities part. we may not end up in a situation with 911 happened. so one can really deliberate on the boss and can be there. but what i can tell you is that i've honestly did have an opportunity even after the american envision, you know, where in the one conference had everybody had an inclusive bit inclusive piece process. their inclusion of all parties, whatever the situation were, all would have to be part of the process later on. the americans pushed for military con guest bush administrator administration. didn't allow. 7 a peace process to, to begin. and that continued the policies ship happen unilaterally. the one government stake wasn't taken in the whole process. so i mean, one can look at in high night and talk about so many things. but now the situation
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is as that, yes, we had mistakes, we had achievements a lot of accomplishments. but now is the time where the international community and the regional powers, including china and russia, but have to chip in and contribute to the peace process. the past can be deliberated a lot. we have lost the reason why i bring it up because you're going to have to face that. ok, i would be american withdrawal, so you're going to have to face those reality. marvin, let me go to you. i mean, is it really, really over over? because if you look at the chatter about contingency plans and out beyond afghanistan's border is american military might be close by. i mean, is it ever really ever going to come to an end because there are too many people institutional interest that would like to see this keep going on? obviously, the government in kabul would like this to continue on. so we can, we've talked about the past, let's talk about the present and let's talk about what's going to happen after the
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final american troop. if that ever happens, leaves up canister and go ahead. marvin and washington is not going to be any return troops. the question is, what the united states is going to do is say our power. and the truth is it hasn't decided. it's just going to, to the extent that it has any capacity at all because from the gulf is too expensive. and difficult operation is certainly not going to be a timely kind of response, which is what is most needed cost in support for our target for our son's forces that are in jeopardy. so know if there's not going to be that the question then comes down to as the situation worsens, is be united states going to then use whatever capacity it has to try to to slow the process. i don't think it can stop, but it can only slow it. my sense here at this point is that it, it may do so,
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but it is that point. it will be too late because if there is infiltration of the cities, it's going to be impossible to use it a power effectively without killing innocent civilians. let me just go back on one thing. what there are no. margaret. how are we going? what they are on track matic, on recognize les and again that there was a diplomatic route to getting what they have always wanted and that goes back to the very beginning. they always want to restoration of the ambridge in bond. they could not have been violated because if they were, they would be no agreement there. as it was a bond, it was impossible to put together with them the launch of the 1st, any kind or agreement and were not for russia and iran, as well as the united states. they would as sitting on them. they would not have
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agree if you throw the top of on into that there would have been no agreements. so it, we all will all looking for that magic thing that might have worked if only we done that. in that same vein, there was no way in which the now tory is warlords, were going to sit down with the people who when they had as far as they were concerned, defeated. so i, yes, it's the really never was a moment. you're not one last thing. ok. and i did stage. remember george bush made a great deal of the fact. we're not there for nation building. he wanted to pull out as quickly as possible because your rock is what he was on is my and that was the whole point of another another. another. another mistake, okay, i mean, scott, i mean again, the reason why i ask this question about what's happening now moving forward
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because there's a moral hazard issue out there. if the government and couple know is american error power is going to be out there and they can call upon it. and of course will be people in the pentagon to be more than willing to do that. because raytheon and everybody else, you know, they get, get a get paid to. i mean, the moral hazard thing really bothers me because i visited couple. i talked to officials about corruption and you know, was always about the degree of it. everyone agreed that it's there. and, and so you know, there's this moral hazard slippery slope issue here. that's why i keep asking, you know, we really, really leaving, leaving go ahead, scott. well, i mean, we need to understand that while we were in afghanistan and we had air power based in afghanistan, we had the ability to search more air power from aircraft carriers. busy or maybe and see, and from bases in the, in the middle east through got you see any airspace there was permissive. right now
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we're talking about a situation where there will be no american aircraft based in afghanistan. everything has to come from abroad, which complicates the delivery of munitions greatly in terms of a timeliness factor. and in terms of a sustainability factor. so anybody who understands if we didn't win the war when we had everything going for us from an airpower perspective. and suddenly things that were going to somehow put our finger on the scale of an outcome with this ridiculous concept of surging air power from, from the, from, from the gulf region. doesn't understand how air power works. we've lost its over. it's done a will be no cavalry riding to the rescue. busy the air bar will not ship this thing when the last american troops leave. when the last foreign troops leave, we're talking about a survivor factor of weeks, maybe months, but at the end of the day, the collapse of the couple government will be as rapid and decisive as the collapse of the south vietnamese government. between march and april of $975.00,
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that's just the re, scott, you'll be much surprised. that's what the name of this program is it saigon in afghanistan. let's go to our guest in kabul. how do you think? how do you think about the prospect of the government collapsing over the next few months? because it seems like almost inevitably it was there propped up because of us power and money. if we leased the power drives up, i don't know about the money because, you know, we've heard these politicians say they'll continue to support it. but i think the saigon analogy is really good. i mean, can remember very well scott, you probably well as well. and marvin, of course, the debate, you know, should they continue funding on south vietnam and cambodia and even the congress said, no, it's over, it's over here. so let's go back a couple here. how are you thinking about the collab potential collapse of the government in kabul? you know, the cognitive government,
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the government did not collapse after 989 when the situation was much worse than it is in a situation was much worse than what we have worked right now. and the resumes survived with a very little support from the struggle struggling law school, which had so many grown the issues. the situation is much different than at that time right now. so that is one thing that you have to keep in mind. secondly, the other one says, you know that the, this, the thinking of collapse comes from the mindset that the caliber have. people know a certain districts in certain parts of the country and they might be marching forward. but then look at the last week or last 10 days. confrontations, there has been a lot of clearance of the 80 as from the taliban president. so the one forces have been able to stand up to the challenge and keep the taliban at base. what i want to emphasize yet, any war of any scale is going to cause destruction couse for any country, even for
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a very well sector. strong can be forget about a 3rd street like a modest on. but the way and our is really the peace process to succeed. any, any level of insurgency, continuation of warfare is going to try to stability of a lot of them. there is no doubt and i believe that the only way out for us is the peace process to succeed. so instead of really counting the months and days, let's think of the possibility of the peace process to proceed. hey, let me jump on that that just given us the hope for a continuation of the peace process. okay, we're almost out of time, you're marvin. i'll give you the last 30 seconds. go ahead. okay. i'm a little bit more pessimistic that we're starting on this. i don't think there is a piece that tell him i have to are convinced that they were on the verge of a military victory. the united states is not the loser here. the loser in south got
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us than see i've got people and i think we have to keep that in mind. united states will go on without done, although we will have replications. it's looking all the parts of the world to invest a military lee. and in other ways, so it's gone, people who are going to suffer here, and that's the tragedy that well, we can all agree on this panel. it is a tragedy here many thanks them, i guess in washington del mar, and in kabul. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c you next time. and remember the the financial advisor guide. i don't buy a i by mom a few years. that's not an almost friday. that's the last time i buy it from the
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the industry prefers to millions of euros in the regulations. i will be thinking about making money. i think it's about big corporation, international markets. import export. do you imagine the number of per, the diseases are in every family today due to new viruses or new microbes? not true. so it is due to environment. last not going to take either the momentum much time with abilene accumulate got on, we come in today. mostly they don't allow us to, like the food industry is successful, create more jobs, it will create more value added, it will create more growth. so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the
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interest something interesting that we have regulation. we want the regulation of the industry and if we don't behave then yes, that's fine. ah. ah, taliban celebrate sweeping game because i've got this done, including another border crossing the prison. some concerns that america will be out of the country by the end of next month. leaving it to fend for it. so you know, mission accomplished with the right and the responsibility that can people alone to decide their future and how they want to run their country. while as refugees continue to flee the country and say, can you life in europe, the brutal rape and murder of a 13 year old girl, austria at the hands of an afghan, migrants again to see issues. immigration back in the spotlight, plus a wind of discordant belgium. the french plans to build off shore turbines is how is the ice and tell.


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