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tv   Cross Talk  RT  July 7, 2021 10:30am-11:01am EDT

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the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interests. what you see in this, these techniques is the state devising message to end to essentially destroy personality of an individual lifetime. means this is how one doctors, theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against the prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, disseminated within the us intelligence community, and worldwide among allies for the next 30 years, to the victim say they still with the consequences today
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the with the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we're used to hearing he will leads messaging about the importance of values. not everyone in the block agrees. in fact, a growing number of conservative and populous forces are speaking out against what some called brussels colonial outlook conservatives and populace. talk the language of family and culture in leaks, talk a values to create a european superstate the the cross sucking the e u in crisis joined by my guess i'm scared in london. he's america's professor of
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international history and former convener of european studies at london school of economics. also in london, we have donald, so as soon he has ameritas, professor of comparative european history at queen mary university of london, and in case we cross glen morgan, he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright gentlemen, cross groves and effects, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always let me go to alan 1st. in london, the slovenia prime minister recently condemned the eas, western states for imposing, quote, imaginary european values without respecting local cultures. how do you react to that? because we had a letter come out with 16 major figures representing parties all across the the block. very agitated and pushing back against what they think is brussel brussels intruding upon their local affairs. how do you react to what the us will be,
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the prime minister had to say? well, it doesn't cause any surprise because there's a great device in your opinion, just matters of culture, particularly. ready all gay culture and various other things casting culture, the big protection of the catholic church and cohen. ready does who writes of family rights and po. ready and discriminatory legislation hungry against gay and lesbian people. and this is creating a cleavage the letter that you refer to. it's a strange because it criticizes the european union for being going forward. the federalist pass to, which is that still committed by funding treaty. a close to union is a criticism by the didn't know what was called populace parties, but this is leann to bureaucratic parties. you don't want to see the sent to expand,
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but it's going to get anyways, it's just a political gesture as far as i could see. ok, but it is a political just speaks to the divisions in new york inside the ok. let me go to donald. that's the same question here. i mean, it's interesting what alan had to say is that it's a lot of noise. a lot of light now, but not much heat. would you agree with that? yes, for one say i agree with that. it's a lot of noise and also it's, it's as usual, giving the european union the more important. so then it actually has, when it comes to values, there is not very much the you have imposed. i mean, one can say, for instance, you can't be a member of the repeat union. it's jeff capital punishment. that is that best. so the thing as for european values then use, historically speaking, are always constructed. you know, people talk about british values or french values. and they seem to have
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a list of stuff that i think is good and then they put them in the basket, says our, our values. but otherwise, there is not very much. the european union has very limited powers. for instance, it hasn't got any power on foreign policy, it doesn't go to any power on the taxation. it hasn't got any power on welfare. so the 3 most important powers of the state are actually totally absent in europe and union. ok. what's interesting, let's go to sarah case here, but at the same time we have europe in union lead, threatening to sanction people. and countries like hungry prime minister wrote about what his reaction is, is that he's elected on his values on his platform here. i mean, this is an obvious tension right here, because urban will say we, i know you don't like me. you know, i know you don't like my politics,
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but i repeatedly being elected because of my platform. how do you square the circle there? go ahead and say, well the you is committed to certain basic values around liberty, democracy, and the rule of law. and countries like hungary and poland knew about that when they signed up. unfortunately, over the last few years, all that in particular has violated various dimensions of the rule of law. and you has discovered that it is embarrassing the weak in its ability to force or band, and also the polish leadership to live up to their commitments. and now we're seeing a, a conflict which i fear the you will lose because it lacks the, the power to, to force poland and hungary to comply with their commitments. ok,
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well alan, what is, how does that for both, for the european union moving forward? because if the polls in the hungarian can just, you know, say we're not going to follow your edicts, should they remain members of, should they be welcomed in the european union? because they'll be other populace and conservatives. they'll say, well, the gary ends in the pulse can do it. why can we, i mean, you don't, you see the me, the slippery slope possibility here. not that i'm particularly against that either . i believe in the democratic process. ok. people elected these officials go ahead . alan well, the trouble is that you will be in union is a non elective bureaucratic institution, which is run by an assortment to be transferred. no democratic monday along with the people that are opposing the pose on getting. so whoever do a democratic monday, so it makes life very difficult. i mean, the doubts probably minister said the calls and get and she just quit. but you know,
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there's no way of making these people quit the snow mechanism whereby they can be for night. and again, it's not just them, i mean, the german sweets i'm from a monetary policy. the german constitutional court is link markers and saying that if you opinion central bank persists was caught to dive using to a large extent, the german constitutional court may say that germany will no longer take part in any of this. so the germans are also saying that for democratic and constitutional reasons, germany kind of becomes to sneak over it and that cannot make matches by the european central bank and by the commission. so it's not just the hose and the games on culture. the germans are also saying that, you know, make matters them in the u. p. in banking system to carry on the
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way it is. so there are also tensions, but there is no mechanism live by the european commission. can actually force national governments if it's a key issue into following its lines. so it's not obvious how things are going to be patched out. i'm just surprised that many of the circle pop could, as part is still want to work within the european union. i don't see why they don't do well, vision didn't come all together. but i mean, i mean, i would need to have you k provides. if this was happened, they wouldn't lead to the so called pop the british party. i could never sign up to because of policy was to come i all together. well, i want to, i want to get to the read. i want to get to the british example in a 2nd here. let me go to donald here. i mean, in light of what allen just said there, i mean, if the germans that want to go follow through on monetary policy, the polls and gary and subcultural issues, i mean is,
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is turning into the you of optionality where, you know, there's no downside. there's no punishment for it. i mean, how is, how do you keep cohesion? then if people can pick and choose go ahead donald. this is, this is the old issue. some people are skeptic attribute to the p and union enormous powers, then complain that these powers are there from non elected people. but the reality of the thing is that the vast, that the electrons in europe are loyal to their state to the nation state. they vote for national policies, even when they vote for europe and parliament, they voted to punish or give a prize to their own. m p. 's to their own petitions. in other words, it is still the goal used to say no help, but the tree it is the, the con, is a union of nation states. the nation states have kept all their powers. if they
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don't want to be entangled, they're not in shang, and if they don't want a single currency, they don't have a single single currency. and there's nothing anyone can do about it. so further for many years, including in britain, in the last 6 britain, join the, the european union has always been a terrain of dispute. when in fact there was very little the europe and union could impose on britain. it was good, it's good, it's eric is here. i mean, you know, one of the issues, particularly if we can focus on the hungarian from the polls, is that they focus a lot on families here. and so you have this kind of odd juxtaposition where, because of demographics for the union, at a whole, they need a population growth, but then they would say the hungarians polls, for example, why don't we just be more friendly to families and have population growth organically, naturally, within the european union, instead of importing it and so,
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and then the hungarians, and polls and others in each year. so we just don't want your immigrants, we work part of that process of having people come in. so why should they take them in? for example, go ahead and fair cues. well, they have to take them in because if you decide they're going to have a common boundary, a common border, they will state have to live up to their obligations. i would want to say something going correction to what alan said, i don't think it's the commission that runs it is the member states and also and also to the question why don't hungry impose leave. it's because they got a sizable chunk of gdp from you money. there's no conceivable way they will let you hang on. hang on, hang on, finish up. go ahead. keep that's. i mean that's, that's the root of the matter. the hungary and poland are desperate for you. money and they're trying to take the money and not live up to their commitments. ok,
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well allen, you want to jump in there real quick before we go to the break, go ahead. allen. just one thing this attention between was being said inside accused what's being said, london told is saying that they use no problem whatsoever. it's just a collection of nation states. the company, i don't know, i said my powers on the cisco web. there's no power to defend gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the e. u in crisis. stay with our team. the to be with me.
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ah ah, i use this is your media a reflection of reality? in a world transformed what will make you feel safer? tyson lation, whole community. are you going the right way or are you being somewhere direct? what is truth?
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his faith in a world corrupted. you need to defend the join us in the depths will remain in the shallows. ah ah, welcome back to cross back where all things are considered. i am peter. well, remind you we're discussing the e. u in crisis. ah ok, let's go back to donald in london so far in this program we have 2 contradictory ideas . the e u is just the all power comes from the member states. and then just supposed to that we have this all powerful commission. what is it because that's what the arguments i hear all of the time. it's not democratic, faceless bureaucrats. but then the other argument is no,
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all the power comes from the member states. ok, how do, how do you, how do you balance that donald? go ahead. but it's obvious that the power comes from the council of ministers because it's an agreement between states the states get together, the council of ministers appoints of commission and the commission then. and the commission then an actor, a number of propositions which obtain a majority the that is the way it has been. the idea that the commission runs european affairs or interferes in hunger and culture. is absolute nonsense? well, i mean they, the are about, and the hungarians are being threatened with sanctions. i don't know. phil ever come through with that. it's good. it's eric is here. i mean, is that just bluster ok? because i mean, watching that would come from the states from the other state. ok, fine. well, i mean, alright. and then then what, when you say no, what is the,
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what is the remedy if, if we've already agreed in this program, that there's really no penalty, no sanction. you want to stay with that donald in london. yes. the, the what the, what people say would petition say about the repeating union is largely determined not by the european union, but by domestic considerations. but what is it that will work well with their electorate? the euro, skeptical extra, is increased the enrollment fee over the last 20 years. it has increased in including in countries which were enthusiastic about europe, such as italy, which now the largest parties, the euro, skeptic party, in france, marines up, and has made me nearly 50 percent of the of the vote. she's the euro skeptics and i want to leave. now, what you said to me is that you are a skeptic. so the increase in your skepticism can only increase the number of times, but it, titian is. it will say it's all in the photo brush, and it's so much better to say solar both addresses than to say. so my fault, well,
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it's going to therapy. you're not in your head an agreement, go ahead, explain why? well, i think that the politicians do tend to blame europe for their own failures and deficiencies when you're a salt mcdonald is right there. and now you're a skeptic. coffee's like be nice lager who do embrace robust? you're a skeptic positions. so the one wonders whether when push comes to shove, they will really actually carry through efforts to pull out to meet the leg. it's heavily dependent on financial capital in venice or region. and it is not in their interests to pull out of the european union, and i suspect that the lady with back down which comes to shop. well, i mean if i, if i can stay with you, i think that's a very interesting gambit because it's a good electoral platform. if you win on i've been, what do you do? because that is really an appetite appetite to take
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a break that move here. and there's not a lot of indication there are, let me go to you. i mean, has the european union learned anything from briggs? it trying desperately to, to beat britain into some kind of post colonial status in regards not, not as a sovereign state, but is a renegade problem. so i mean, it looks on britain just the same way the china loops on taiwan. it resents bitterly. the state is left and i'm on, i mean, life is difficult as possible for the british. but unfortunately, britons doing very well without the you are pretty and you and you know, ready? and this isn't it. is trying to destroy the city of london is trying to make life as difficult as possible in. ready loveland, and it still has this imperial complex it and it's very, very frightening that the example of britain will spread elsewhere. for example,
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macro was asked if the french had to refresh them, how would the vote? and he said they would put to leave the european union, but he wasn't giving them a referendum. and i think the pen is now offering affects it referendum to the french should to be elected president of france. ok if i go to donald, how do you, how do you feel? how do you feel about that? i mean, if, if the, if there a chance were given to the italians or to the french, that they would go that direction to go the direction of briggs. it because there's, there's that there's the, there's a school of thought out there which because of brags, which i think is really quite interesting. and it's coming from europe. is that ban referenda. but since you don't want to hear a democratic vote, i mean the people are interpreting that referendum and very different ways. one is, is too much democracy, which i find rather peculiar coming from europe. but other people say it's dangerous because people don't understand what they're voting for. donald, how do you reply to that? well,
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if the italian and french i think it's unlikely that we'd have a referendum on something like breakfast because that might to lose it. in the sense that italy and france might actually leave the big mistake david cameron made is that you're not calculated what the results might be, he thought, or rather he thought he was going to win and put a stop to the sniping from the right wing of his party from the euro skeptic from those john major, call the bastards. he lost. he lost the referendum. that is the lesson that may be the italians when it's interesting. that's actually the saline. they go north, which is now called lego. since they've been in this government, this big, large coalition has changed slightly. he's june over europe because he said he got money. he knows that it's not very good at this stage to talk against europe,
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ian union. so he hasn't said anything against europe union in the last 6 months. i mean, you may not last, you know, was these publications or a bunch of opportunities to who would use whatever is there, you know, the to get votes, nothing new here. why calling politicians opportunity is an understatement. i completely agree with you there. say something worse, but i'd say something where it's a bit. i can't say it on television. let. let's go back to say, rick, you hear, well, you know, one of the claims, again, these populace in conservatives have, with the e u writ large, is that it's attempting to create a super state. how do you fall down on that? because, you know, explained to me once by a very prominent eurocrats, is that a crisis is always an opportunity for the you to deepen integration, crisis integration. how do you feel about that? go ahead. well, i think historically that has been the case and europe has integrated come together
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through a process lucky of self. it was an elite lead process that didn't involve the dean of the de moines of europe. to great extent, i think that process is now come to an end, and i think that any further integration will have to be undertaken openly and debated, evolving all the people of europe. and i would hope that they would, they would commit to building something like a united states of europe because i think a, a, europe of nation states would likely return in europe to, into war levels of dysfunction and economic misery. so that's a very strong statement there and how do you feel about that? because that is the charge and we've, you know, and it was all around the break. the debate here is that the brussels wants too much power and it is tried to one size fits all. i mean, it was at least the claims that were made by the briggs. it tears ok. now i ask you,
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did they learn anything from it? because there are there, we've all agreed on this program and said euro skepticism is on the rise. what is exactly means is very unclear to me because it seems to me, it is more of a demand for reform and not to got the entire project. go ahead, allen. well, i do understand the letter being signed by the circle populous parties. like you is the bull, you integrate, the less efficient it becomes gross becomes less. most of its major policies of fail, the years fail, europe stagnate. 100 is since a year was introduced, the italian economies patent students still says in touch of the are the more in depression you have actually achieved the less efficient, less them aquatic, less economically viable. the whole thing becomes,
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and if it wants to go towards fiscal union, then they'll be a huge political battle, which will divide it up. probably if it wants to do much, but the euro situation, there will be a bond prices and you might end up with the disappearance to the use. and i think you are very fragile european union say, fred job. i think of the divisions of a severe, the ones of a culture of the ones who been discussing their konami programs to the worst ones. and i think the euro itself is a currency. it's enormously fragile. and if that goes, then the whole thing goes, donald talk, we're talking about the fragility of it all. but at the same time, one can make the argument, it does have this staying power to muddle through. i mean, again, i mean, some people will say, you know,
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it's not completely broken. that's why you don't need to completely fix it. but i mean, that's not particularly a, something that you know, you should be proud of. i mean, just muddling through, i mean, where is the european project going right now? because as, as we heard earlier, more integration will have to be more transparent. there is, there are many people claim that there is a democracy deficit. where, where does the, how does it move this project move forward? where people can find affinities with it. go ahead. donald, when, when people talk about the super state to my reaction is to start a bit of history. the creation of states has always been from the top. a state then imposes on the role of the population. a single language. there are more than one lang, which is an education system. a police force, an army, and a bureaucracy, and
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a system of legislation. and then battalions become italians of french become french to the british, become branches, and so on and so forth. so for the european union to become a super state, it will need to be conquered or something that has i mean, with the exception of yugoslavia, this sunday, an example of states which have come together by the the accession of different existing states. as for the future, i know that people will blame the present economic circumstances on the p and union . but the fact is that the global downturn of 2008, which has been the most serious economic or crisis, to affect the global most of it. as of any they tend to do with european union or we are a gentlemen of freight. we have run out of time. we've. we've been fascinating discussion here. i want to many thanks to my guests in london and it's eric hughes . and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time and
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remember prospect the ah the ah, today industry prefers and millions of you know, the regulations. i will be thinking about making money. i think it's about a big corporation. international markets import export. do you imagine the number of the diseases are in every family today due to new viruses or new microbes?
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it's not true. so it is due to environment that can take either the momentum, much trouble with the tech you've got on the come in today. mostly they don't allow us. the food industry is it will create more jobs, it will create more value added. it will create more. so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interest something into that we have regulation. we want the regulation of the industry and if we don't behave then yes, that's fine. ah, when i would show the wrong, why don't just don't the yes to see out. the thing becomes the after kid and engagement equals the trail. when so
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many find themselves, well, the part we choose to look for common ground in the washing off fee international. in our headlines this, our, the carbon nation of haiti has imposed a martial law to the shock assassination of president at his home and then use a leading scientific journal, a new keiko's versus new job safe and effective. stressing the lucky to the side effects, such as a ledge, blood clot links to well, the code with back to the right. we're from the german, red crossman, who's racing, the law over growing number of those, skipping their appointments for a 2nd dro norris job and hesitancy. trend continues to spread will wife ah.


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