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tv   Cross Talk  RT  April 23, 2021 4:30pm-5:01pm EDT

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for this hour but don't worry because next stop para latina cross-talk tulips russia's red line sit back enjoy the season. when those truths seem wrong. but old rules just don't hold. any you get to shape out these days to come out to it and in games from it because betrayal . when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. is you'll be a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe.
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day or thinks. we dare to ask. hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle in his annual address to the nation russian president vladimir putin reminded his citizens and the world in fact russia has red lines when it comes to foreign policy interests and those red line. it's need to be taken seriously and there lays the problem the west refuses to acknowledge russia has its own national interests.
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cross talking russia's red lines i'm joined by my guess and washington he's an r.t. column this and baloney and we have petro he is a visiting fellow at the institute band studies at the university of belonging and here in moscow we cross to andrew career he is a moscow based american political analyst all right gentlemen cross talk rules and effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate you let me go to you 1st here i'm sure you either read or watched putin's address yesterday to the nation and i was quite struck how he actually used the term red lines i think he really wants to get people's attention here there are red lines here because it's always western countries the nato alliance they have their red lines no other countries allowed that it seems the president of the russian federation is making it in vatican clear that there are red lines on russia's side what are some of those red lines go ahead. well he specifically didn't say what you were
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and he said that russia would determine whether they were for itself in some respects i see this as an indirect reply to president mother calls statement that the european union and the west should get its act together and determine what it sees as its red line respect russia a lot of the headlines that i saw here stressed that the west was going to be enunciating some sort of red lines and my promise was calling one of them in fact phobias as an indication of a bit of a chastising if you will of much call by a macaw of western institutions. arguing that the west needed to come to a clearer vision of what it wanted from the west before talking about red lines
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in general and bush and i think was indicating that indeed if you want to go down that road this is a 2 way street exactly and if i share i mean it's the problem is over the the last 2 administrations it's you know it's either democracy promotion or. certain norms and they never make it very clear clear exactly what they want until somebody crosses what they think is a red line and they and it's you know i can understand strategic ambiguity sometimes i understand that but when you have the tensions rising to the level they are now you don't need ambiguity you need to know where what you want and what you're going to settle for and i'm and i'm very very frustrated i know on this side of the pond people are very frustrated as well of course we're all talking about ukraine in this instance here some red lines so where you can go where you can't go where you shouldn't go if we better start talking that way before it's too. go ahead in washington well you would imagine that there were red lines outlined in
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the u.n. charter and the actual rules of the world order that were start up in 1985 except that the u.s. and its allies or other vassals have been ignoring those rules and applying them as they see fit much as the u.s. is doing domestically right now since about 1901 and so putin's message was literally we are a sovereign nation you will respect this i was struck by how he left this for the very end of this speech and he spent most of it on internal policy just to just to sort of make it clear to the west where his priorities are and then that yes he basically said oh yeah and by the way if you will crack us we will end you but the fact that there is a man there is a phenomenon that i observed recently that the u.s. acts as if only it was the only software a nation in the world yeah basically the american government makes decisions everybody else obeys and who whoever doesn't obey is declared an outlaw
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and sanctioned or punished or you know bridging changed or whatever and i think putin speech was a clear message that no russia is a sovereign nation you will respect this and if you don't well look at our shiny weapons yep yep and i mean bush mentioned to date let's go with 991 i mean if you look at american foreign policy from that time to the present all around the globe it just it punches down all the time on countries that could hardly defend themselves now they're come up with the situation could anyone spell and korea and now we have what's going on with ukraine i mean there are countries that can say no and they have made it very clear that they will defend their sovereignty and what they define is their national interest and there is a word called diplomacy i know we haven't heard it much because it certainly hasn't been used much that's when diplomacy comes into play what do you want what do i
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want ok that's why we need to plough mysie it's a word that is gone that is retired from the american lexicon right now it needs to come back go ahead ender. no i definitely agree about that i think that one of the issues is that the west hasn't really given a fair arum to russia as a national interest and not only when russia's national interest might seem on divergent the west but most interestingly even when the same and stress converge in a perfect example of that can be seen in russian is revered relations in a western political parlance israel is seen as the ultimate good in russia as the ultimate evil but these 2 eating game so to speak they cooperate very very closely and they're practically allied in syria to a very large extent now you can't talk about that openly because that raises the very uncomfortable question of well israel is seen as the so-called ultimate good cooperating with the so-called alton of bad well maybe it's really isn't that good and russia really isn't all that bad that's fine either democrats or republicans will talk about this shares or teach a convergence between the u.s.
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and russia when it comes to israel and some but unfortunately not all middle eastern affairs and i think that if there was more focus on convergence these as well as a russia being against iran's suspected nuclear weapons program for which it contributed to un s.c. sanctions about a decade ago although they have a different approach nowadays i think that maybe the russian audience to realize that they've been put in place for a very long time and then you know aren't a simple as they've been made to believe they are in this new cold war yeah i mean mikel i would that the the biggest problem here is that you know we over i think ever since 2014. you know i remember reading in bloomberg you know the administration is working on a road map for the russians to have an off ramp to you know get the russians out give them a way to come over to our side here which i think is actually delusional here i mean again if we go to the address from yesterday putin still said our partners i mean i'm i was really surprised by that actually ok because the the way it's been
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presented in you know the russia gate hoax is done that's it's bled into policy. is that because of what has been said you know putin's a killer in from the president of the united states i mean how do you dial that back where you can actually at least you can talk to each other like during the cold war i mean if we were arch enemies but we had summits we had treaties we had meetings we had meetings of minds we had disagreements we can't even even get close to that right now go ahead nicholai the thing that struck me about yesterday's speech and if there were shown on television and discussed more in the west i think western audiences would see it as well he said you don't need to shout from the hilltops go about how important you are if you just. have a mastery of the situation you can set your own agenda and khujand of that
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masterfully he is clearly in command of what he wants and he knows what his country stands for and is willing to. do assert those interests going back to a discussion of red lines what strikes me about the use of that of that term in this especially in the west but also begin it up a little bit speech is that it's not very helpful it's it's as a it's a euphemism for don't step on my polls or don't push me too far but it really doesn't clarify anything it's meant to clarify i haven't been 100 i'm sorry nicolay doesn't but what is an important also to say is that you know we there are certain things you can do that we will tolerate and there are things that you can do that we will not tolerate i think that's very important to send that
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message i'm sorry to interrupt keep going nowhere and it's gotten the sad. are where we are is that it's become necessary to say that whereas previously it was understood as part of what normal diplomacy was. and the bunch it will reflect upon that i totally agree i mean we're where we have it's like you know the u.s. has to get on a 10 step program to get back to sobriety in dealing with international affairs where you know i mean it's really issues of war and peace i mean when i when i was growing up that was kind of important these people seemed to lose you know about that go ahead of bush or totally delusional but i think it's important to notice that. putin did say so-called red lines and we will determine what they are so that was sort of i mean for somebody who parses playing bridge for a living i took that to mean ok here putting you on notice that you know we have
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we're a sovereign nation that's the terminating boundaries and we will set the boundaries and will communicate that to you if in so far as i have an objection to this is that i think putin's message was still too subtle for the west because and it went over to heads of many couldn't considering the reactions in the western press that i would serve yesterday from complete lack of coverage to quoting a snippet out of the speech and saying oh my god we need to spend the jillions of more dollars to upgrade our nuclear arsenal and whatever because that was the big take away hero give him money to straight no point the boy said let me interrupt your report we go to the break here i mean again it seems to me this amazing patience and i question my russian friends about it all the time why are you so patient go ahead we go ahead before we go to america and he did say but he'd also did say do not mistake our politeness for weakness and then he spoke about the weapons so i mean again i think it's must be
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a cultural thing because i would have been more direct but then again i've lived here for 25 years so maybe i'm too used to the american or our government our guest maybe the bombastic nikita krushchev. haunts them here ok maybe they don't know that that's a bad memory for them here are gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break about a short break we'll continue our discussion on russia's red line stay with our. l. look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. must obey the orders given by human beings except when such orders to conflict with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful about official intelligence and the point is to create trust.
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cha seen with artificial intelligence will summon the demon. the obama's protect its own existence and. some certainly that china disagrees of america's foreign policy or the china disagrees with america's domestic policies that china disagrees america's monetary policy they don't want all that money printing sell a few things are going to happen number one it's a hash war or a global race to procure as many big quite as possible now on the geo political level china is leading the way this is the sputnik moment for a big point america can answer that last race or can be left behind.
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welcome back. crosstalk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle we're discussing russia's red lines. go back to enter here in moscow and i hope i really really hope that some of biden's foreign policy advisers actually read the speech or watch the speech. because you can look at that speech in many different ways and i think nicholai has already brought this up is that is that you know we we're in a position of strength we know what our interests are and we will defend them but at the same time again going back to this kind of patience and politeness is that these are the terms and conditions of engagement now do you want to parlay yes or no because i think in a way it's an invitation if you if you want to be invited go ahead and.
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yes you the way that i see it i think a little bit differently i feel that the red lines were unnecessary long overdue and actually pretty clearly communicated because if you look at the context in which he said them he had preceded this statement by talking about the belorussians scenario that was just fought over the weekend where a western agents were reported to have been planning the assassination of president bush on a card revolution a military coup and on top of that some of cheney asli a cyber offensive operation to cut the capital off from the entire national grid and when you keep that in mind and you pair them with what putin said about red lines i think it becomes pretty clear to all foreign policy observers and especially those that are formulating the policy they have putin's red lines are pretty simple don't attempt any such hybrid war attack on russia don't try to assassinate me don't try to launch a car revolution against my country don't try to co-opt my military to stage a crew all these are impossible in modern day russia and definitely do not launch
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a cyber attack against russia and they can come off national grid for example and i think the reason why he spoke in this way is because i'm now a days we're in the middle of a hybrid war which means that all methods of pressure just short of conventional military attack are being employed to course russia into unilateral concessions and across the board and russia finally recognizes how serious the threat is especially in light of last weekend's events and i believe that president putin want to make it very clear that while the west is saber rattling internationally at the same time behind the scenes they're actually moving forward with this hybrid war offensive he's in russia's backyard in a country that a civilization is similar to it as unusual defense treaty and is part of the so-called united states therefore i think that russia regards that is a pretty crucial law national security threat to its own interests and fears the possibility of these scenarios preparing into its own border and that's how i ensure president bush is right and i'm staying i mean i'll of us here. took the
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address seriously and i think. a lot of people around the world did but nicholai did anyone in washington take it seriously i mean it's seems to me that the you know they have an agenda and nothing can be said and i think andrew is absolutely right i mean they're just going to find their way because they have their objective they want to see a defeat go ahead. yeah you really. and his assessment that there was again an implicit offer to negotiate as i recall there was a segment of the speech where we didn't mention that again we have russia many times offer to start negotiations on a cyber treaty but not received any response my concern is as you and others have pointed out on the other side in washington. we have
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a copy of essentially the obama administration in terms of u.s. foreign policy today but it's a it it's a copy it's essentially a redo of ideas from more than a decade ago in a situation in which the united states as i lost a great deal of its leverage and the influence of the world as a result of the same formulas that marginally perhaps worked for obama and then there's obama himself who really added the charisma to that and led to that foreign policy which is totally absent in the current foreign policy i'm just afraid that you know if you're paraphrase marks the 2nd coming of. of the values of discourse and red lines is going to be a farce you know it in the bush family again there's so many different ways he
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could interpret interpret the address here i mean it's certainly a warning ok that he said it's sending out a fire you know is shooting over the bow they're saying you know you know if you want to if you want to go down this path we're ready ok i mean you know make my day i mean i don't mean clint eastwood like ok because i i i really have a very very low opinion of this foreign policy team ok they think it's like in the middle of the ninety's not even though obama they're acting as if it's in the ninety's and they can have their way the unit polar moment and history is on our side workers were woken all of this i mean they're talking crazy stuff ok they're not talking foreign policy they're not talking geopolitics they're talking in a very different dimension that i guess only inside the beltway can understand because i don't and that terrifies me go ahead in washington what i'm inside the beltway i've been inside the beltway for 20 years and i'm struggling to understand it but and my have assessment obviously not in their heads but in as much as
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anybody can be it's almost like a messianic zeal. the what's driving this administration is a kind of religion or religious like fervor and although they're mostly focused domestically on completely reinventing the u.s. as. anybody knows it foreign policy. they're you're right they're basically a fusion of well in so much as obama's foreign policy was basically clintonism revved up it's a clinton us foreign policy you know weird we're the only sovereign nation we're global empire we decide who's good or bad you know we can we can sanction anybody without due process what is due process that doesn't matter and they go about the world acting like this and i think i would disagree with andrew that the warning applied only to russia. i think it applied to bella as well and putin specifically mention it as an example of something that shouldn't be done by anybody ever
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anywhere and that in so far as you know any red lines where were physically mentioned in the speech that was one of them stop regime changing unfortunately i don't think washington is physically capable of yeah you know they can't learn any new tricks here because they're listen low octane thinkers andrew you know we had the case of august 2008 and georgia i mean is anybody in the in the by the administration saying hope well we have this guy's alinsky and it looks like it's playing out the same way they know how it ended feely and georgia are we seeing a repeat here i mean where's the learning curve it's terrifying go ahead ok i actually think that they have learned from history but in a very diabolical sense i think that there is a lot of thinking in the american ministration now very dangerously thinks that if our russia can't watch a defensive intervention in our protection of its own interests that that might kind of trap russia just an admirer or a catalyze a whole new set of scenarios of more financial sanctions and so on and so forth now
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of course this would be a ukraine sacrifice and nobody wants to see that russia definitely want to do anything like that unless it's an absolute promise to do so but i almost think that's kind of the line of thinking kind of what more than. a center that honeybees they want to intervention now i wonder whether or not they still think that's a day after russia proved. it will defend its interests and might explain the recent scandal in the czech republic which is nothing more than a spectacle designed to distract from a might be a defacto even if short lived deescalation by focusing on something else to get people's attention away from ukraine by bringing out the horse people saga and everything which is just a total farce and i almost kind of try to connect these things and look at it from their perspective yeah i understand the nickel i don't know if we could switch over to. ukraine here and the same people that were running the ukraine. desk portfolio under obama are back in biden i mean the way i look at is victoria nuland and tony
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blinken see the ukraine as unfinished business ok because they really screwed it up really badly because they didn't get what they wanted they didn't get the whole country and they didn't get crimea and they didn't and russia didn't experience or defeat however you want to define that so it's unfinished business they've learned nothing they they want this and you know what they want an intervention they want ukraine to be crushed because that way russia will be cut out of europe for a generation that's their goal if they win both ways they win both ways go ahead nicholai is there the scenario. reasonably excluded as a possibility i think it's unlikely to occur because that motivation is so transparent that i think everyone in the region is are derived from the senior levels of the russian government understands the danger and is prepared for
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know if they will not allow themselves to go and i think if you don't you have to try and. be. the person you're trying to lure about knows about it and can get around it. when you're left with a gun. yeah i mean you know bush i mean and this is what i find really quite insidious here because what they want is a trial the biden foreign policy team they want a tragedy because they see they see opportunities and tragedy and you know it's halfway across the world i mean and how many americans actually can find ukraine ok i mean this is like a perfect storm for them it's a very evil perfect storm go ahead in washington it doesn't matter how many americans can find ukraine or where it is and what matters is that the entire world is is america's possession and they're its rightful rulers that's how they think. the issue here i think which i'm not sure how much play it has gotten in moscow
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where it needs to is that the american government lives in a world of its own making they live in this propaganda bubble in which reality is whatever they say it is and it doesn't matter what i what happens or what anybody else does they will just conjure reality like with this check business to suit their needs and they do it every single time and ok fine they're not fooling everybody but they're fooling enough people for long enough to to you know do the damn age and then did they just keep going. in the ocean that voice i mean when we get down to the finish off with you here it is that is that we have you know putin's a killer an aggressor and all that i mean there's no interest in negotiating ok there's only demonization to get to their end game and that's very clear to me any other kind of words are just just duplicitous going 20 seconds later they're treating they're treating putin russian like he treated serbia and milosevic in the
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1990 s. accept that legally insane approach because that's it's a completely different situation and putin's trying to tell them don't be stupid and they're not getting the message excellent way to end the program and i want to thank my guests in washington bologna and moscow and thanks to our viewers for a walk. thing is here archy see you next time remember. when almost seemed wrong. just don't call. me. yet to shape out this day comes to educate and in the game equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. she still looks for common ground.
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it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't healed and you're going to see him going into the bottom is pretty famous. because only from you know. the bottom we suppose. you mean in the past at us it's mean older than just the same question to you know. ins of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption i don't really. feel that if i don't grow up or there's a feeling to this day mothers still search for grown children well look you know hope for their parents. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person. or
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