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tv   Cross Talk  RT  March 12, 2021 4:30pm-5:01pm EST

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hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle according to secretary of state blamed and china is the only country with the economic military and technological power to seriously challenge the stable and open international system all of the rules values and relationships that make the world work the way we want it to is china really a threat to washington's global system. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest says coarsely in washington he's a senior fellow and director of the center of american sea power at hudson institute
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also in washington we have sort of ghouta he is asia pacific international relations specialist at the institute for china american studies and in london we crossed when he came she is a policy analyst and senior lecturer in chinese international political economy or across up rules of the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it when it's going to set in washington i found lincoln's statements about china quite remarkable because basically what he said is that he didn't say and complete words but basically the international system that the united states has built since the 2nd world war designed by the united states directly by the united states everyone must conform to it and china must too and if it doesn't conform to it and that's how they define the threat is that a fair thing to say said no that's not our sort of like what it ought to jim in the beginning my introduction. was not international or exists right now. and which he has faith has been. a party
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to along with other democratic countries is under threat by china and weapon chinese call everything with chinese characteristics so that means that free trade freedom of navigation. certainly free enterprise and non mercantilist system. one where there is something right multiple radical cooperation on trade and where there is not an acceptance of our intellectual property stuffed full stereo that that's the kind of world to 9 states seeks to preserve an increase not to enforce upon others which had been barely barely getting if they pay him a pretty good game today and lincoln is saying is that china is challenging it well i mean it is a multi-ethnic polar world right now one party doesn't make the rules or should
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make the rules because then it will cause conflict when he let me go to you mean it seems to me number one the world that the us is the architecture that the us has been in at the at the meeting since the 2nd world wars hugely benefited china china likes a lot of those rules ok so you know i i think also during that after the 2nd world war all the way up to now the united states has never really had a peer so it has to start thinking about how the internet with international order is going to exist with the peer power go ahead wendy i'll only be with china has vanished from the currents there with her or they will not be not was that faith it's not eternal issues to change it or to challenge them for think it's own statement in his speech because i have read the speech it's very interesting to see . flight is that it suggests a america is alone. i think that it's
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a towering nation basically trying to. fight against. that you know how could this obviously isn't true china is not able to challenge america who is here we know how to do we not only in this region not home we think that the fact that america has allies and it has nato from when it comes to economics china has roots cordoning to the rules and we gain that has been sent out here and it is still considered on an equal phone and there were a lot of demands in america putting on screen here at this time far demands that we were part of a developed upon the american really should be doing the assessing that step it's found that's a place to be again i think it's also important for really to highlight that. while the speech really really emphasizes the fact that the end society and prioritizing american values interests the american people is that you are no no longer who we
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think this is an international system that's. were really after world war 2 this is their own system that actually is very true at its own. so the game is very much seen this you know blink and you know also you know he talked about it and i'm glad when he brought it up because i stopped in my introduction how it benefited the american people absolutely right i was a continuation of it when said meaning china also has its national interests and has to look after its own people i mean why can't the chinese jhoom what went down in the washington must do tyrants on people china do for example i mean it seems to me it's like our party and if you want to cook if you want to participate you have to do exactly what we say but the united states doesn't own the international or it's a member of the international red sox you know there are no diagram often show if a united stance is that china is a moral. yes playing by the rules of the game that the united states to lay down
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and china playing by those same rooms is going to go boss create a head of the united states in terms of material capabilities particularly economics just think about it this way you know talking of decades hence if china gets to the level off productivity that south korea is the act today china with china's economy will be 2 and a half times the size of the united states playing by the rules of the game that the united states laid out china will be wait ahead off the united states and this creates a fundamental di lemma of how to manage china and the problem has been that china does not want to change the setup because it works more or less pretty well for china but for the united states something needs to change in strategy and that's not yet figured out how to change that in strategy and so instead we have this
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doubling down in rhetoric that china's cheating china's doing this love love love love 2 love trying to create a coalition against china but the fact of the matter is one needs to have a better criteria one needs to have better accusations against china to be able to create that coalition against china and that's not looking at i think this is to some extent trust tradition and ceo at the u.s. and and that should not be the case because china as as we just said is just still end up home including income economy and it is not a given that the chinese communist party will be there for her that's not been the case in taiwan that we have hardware in systems have come down it could could have been in china and we could have a much more tour of i set up at some point of time in the next couple of decades in a decade or 2 and that could completely change the conversation so the u.s. needs to stay true to its values and hopes of the rules of the system that it itself laid down and of course court others who. well the seat to the fire to
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sunday to do some of the same sets you want to reply to that go ahead well you are . wondering whether there are clashes on the border between china and india cost to rot here in studio international order but the other guests are saying the united states and now. it doesn't strike me as the . congo border i'm not into the united states or any other democratic country or non-democratic want you know what should the united states do if there was a conflict between india and china what should the united states didn't i don't think. that statesmen have the luxury of making plans based on what could or what might happen i think one has to look at what is actually happening and judged by that. china represents
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a threat to national the international order liberal and national order and what did i did to set what one should try to do me and he would mr plank and what should china do if just. agree to any kind of demand from washington i don't think that agreeing to demands from washington has nothing to do with how the chinese treat the weavers in their own country or threaten tyrone with force or are flashes with very with the indians on there are on the road a lesson from that if it's go to war with china no of course not ok winnie go ahead jump in i see what it says what you're suggesting is number line that you that america wants trying to achieve just saying here what your rights for i i receive the team who are who are the injustices there are fans we will keep on board with us that he was out for i think that there's a bigger. this posse that we were talking about the fact that you're aligned with
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the current situation in india the poor fashions the how. they've been having territories she was rejected it's funny i had clashes going on for decades and they have is oh it's so nice for now regular people you know how they want to do it since we were in hock out. there in the fashion south or potentially current 53 who are going sure sure to call out what america is doing you know to control the hurleys am i'm not saying i want to take it there but if you are going to for china or for america what so-called china it's who the insurer is then it's necessary for america to fully itself should we who is of the international think we're safer as you say america is not a leader america is not trying to control everything 'd that is just part of a chuck of the knife not a question of holding trying to the rules of the american order. it's
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a question now what sort of a warder exists in the world the united states is not even this part shall now understand that the threat to the international order is recognised not simply by the united states but by europe well is demonstrated by the fact that the british are sending a carrier strike the south china sea the french are sending a submarine the german hurst the germans you sending us your friendship is a growing awareness of what china's aggressiveness and your inhibitions well who ambitions mean not just united states or for europe as well and i expect that will continue sort of to the end washington sort of that it is china a military threat and became a miner the british going all the way around the world to to the south china sea which from the stars i know has that be it where china is the south china sea is called that for a reason here i mean if. it seems to me that we're seeing so much of
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a military response i mean is i would think that's a kind of the last thing you would want to be presenting while there are so many things you can diplomacy that you can have before that i mean you know when this is all that this is all that has nothing to react military let's go to our other guest in washington mr. you know that it's sort of. the perfect point 01 talks about globally expansionists in terms of china being doing this this globally and then all the issues that we talk about a frankly right acted stirfry in which something many of which it has already pretty legitimate claims i mean if i come to such an a c. you think about they didn't go china india border dispute actually china prior to what happened on the border at. boundary resolution proposal with regard to a certain segment off the bottom 3 what do they need to the eons instead went and declared the cashier was a union territory not even ok as
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a certain area which is also disputed by china because china does these things everybody jumps to the side even when when the other countries do not sorry to jump in here we have to go to a heartbreaking if about heartbreak or discussion around us china relations say with. some control for a middle class to homeless of a night most of them are very hard working people who want to get ahead that have either have some some health issues or have some of how this trick about luck the whole time joel moon told me his pay for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get you a victim to gun point if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted by anyone that's homeless is history like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the
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case see how it is to be pull in the world's richest country. the 2021 variant of a housing crisis is to pump money into the economy so that all the assets held on the balance sheet of war a boss. it in public banks go up in value and the people that lost a lot of wealth in 2008 the rally people of color are now getting break over the coals again through disinflationary that pass their assets. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered and peter is about to remind you we're talking about the u.s. china relationship.
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go back to mr group in washington d.c. we're talking about perceptions of chinese aggression go right ahead yes exactly perceptions of chinese aggression you know let's let's be clear about it you know the chinese are plush it in tones of the way they handle many of these territorial aspects sources is an extension off diplomacy and politics but force within certain limits this is not force which is going to be used on the other side of the world and phobia so that cetera et cetera it's a very limited use of force and those that don't use of force has done more for political reasons think about it in time from 979 to 2021 china has had little bit of all that so should we see any movements on its territorial fronts you've had less than 150 casualties those last 40 years now think about it with regard to that you know legal wars if go home any easier as we have to add
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to that in terms of casualties but let me get to a larger point don't you let's regard to china it's again china is very territoriality oriented and their fault china is not a military threat to the wooden floor seats but in terms within those sorts i mean she and the 2nd i don't share. in the western pacific china has based serious territorial claims and and strategic interests and in regard to those interests it will ensure that there is an anti access anti denials fact that she has to prosecuting a conflict of contingency which might arise within these waters but that also means that deep beyond these geographies this actually no basis whatsoever for china to be involved in a hot conflict and that includes places like the south pacific all the string off forums in the e.u. notion there is no question of conflict military conflict happening out there but
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a bet is obviously with taiwan it is especially and you can see that that conflict is potentially possible there so again it's a it's a qualified out saying tons of military it's not in the streets fact of the earth but it has military interests and there is a potential for a very serious questions in zoos that you have the odd man out so i'd like you to reply to what we just heard go ahead well but. you know this is. there's a certain amount of speculation here which is understandable. but when the question is asked or when it's asserted that china is not a threat. that may or may not be true but i think that it's important to look at what kind of ships. trannies are building because ships are the way that the principal wait for a country to project our china is working on is working on laying the kio for its 4th. aircraft carrier which will be a very large aircraft carrier
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a very modern one with the electromagnetic catapults and all the attributes of a modern ship. you don't need 4 aircraft carriers for south china sea you need aircraft carriers for one reason alone and that's to project power how used well that's a question for speculation resisting people turning a civic is a pretty big place. but to say that china is not a threat or who are merely concerned with regional issue is the ride by the fact of building amphibious ships which are meant to project power and building aircraft carriers need creasing numbers which are meant to be the same ok india spending 3 aircraft carriers already has and will have 3 aircraft carriers by 2030 i don't know anybody saying india is being expansionist and going to south america going to somebody so i mean we need to have
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a little bit of shared interests in this in the context of this to. mean that we got any air limits but when and if you know we just have we have the quad you know we have in the events being. being designed at least by some people in washington to be kind of in asia nato obviously to contain china and so i mean when you see this containment policy being encircled encouraging the quad to even to to militarily cooperate which i i find really problematic i i don't i just can't see how the australians are going to get involved with a i just beat this out koreans out with the we've with china and you think you know south korea is going to really come to the aid of japan and i doubt that too ok but i mean if it does in this containment these are real ok we have ships you know going into the region here ok and obviously making it clear they see this is all
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i'm projecting power against china not for freedom of the seas but you know they're keeping their eye on one target and one target only go ahead when so the idea of the chinese containing this weekend in 89 bills after. we still have the major come this hour with you for the for oh thank the rise of the chinese economy naturally means it's more concerned with the americans as to what you might mean for the region where you have. which is a major ally who are americans foreign as well as now reality are concerned about whether my poor creative in consumer stevie need to figure out where it comes to have idea how china has a military brain in this they ask it's easy for them so our events are how an idea china and the major military power engine the onset for ups plane. from we're talking about with south reserve the fact that china's trying to develop it for a fresh carrier america has to be 3 so sense that we yes china and idea of china
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being a major military power and growing but it's in terms of challenging america is exactly the sense of power this is not exaggerated in terms that you can see there says how china is prioritizing its concerns and its its south as it ends in the region it is fundamentally focusing on defense of power trying to ensure that nothing happens of course one if hearing within this issue because the so and see these fancy things that these he. that you have been trading routes in the malacca straits is one of the reasons why we have to go through initiative because china recognizes that night you chinese the team in is one team prioritize potential it with one of the treatments and therefore you need the hostler and there's a growing discussion of how the airwaves right where you can stop arms exports america and nationally at least that is the world's leading events for orange 100
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$75000000000.00 for 20 for china exports $9000000000.00 per year over the last decade not a challenge not in that sense there in the big picture yes china i can see why there are concerns but it's regional for the mentally regional interims are where china is trying to protect its interests whose didn't disappoint about territoriality absolutely china has never wavered from day one about what is its own heart. mr go go go go go back to i mean it seems to me you know what linkage between the rise of china the international scene has been actually spain calculator if you look at the course of history i mean unbelievable and if i can just really give a really broad picture here i mean this is the 1st time in 500 years that a none european power is becoming a peer when the only single superpower in the world this is what blinken is talking
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about i find it really insulting it's all couched in values and democracy considering all of the illegal wars that the united states participated in in this century alone ok and it's just because china is becoming a peer and nobody in washington understands how to deal with that and because it's this whole exceptionalism nonsense starts short circuiting because there's someone else out there that is growing in power and there's really nothing they can do about it and that's why they do fall back on these barrel things that i you know i think are hypocritical if you look at american foreign policy and nato also go ahead mr. perfectly correct on that on that trying to you know the fact that we are going to have a non west our which is going to be sitting atop the mountain all summer and thereabouts is of sacked that is very hard to digest because the one that we live in is written has been written by the judeo christian west frankly and it's not
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it's absolutely not easy to accept the fact that chinese have been immense part of the cost they're coming back to that to that in $2.00 to being that that sort of talk and they're doing it at a time when the rest of the water actually says 70 ish employer or safe is rising and doing very well so this is a rice i'm like japan but it happened at the expense of asia it's happening with the asia and that that makes it that much more harder and that's why i mean even in yes try r.p.c. are pretty. questionable i do not take it for granted that he has just stuck in the quad let me expand in trenton 19 the. pacific forces come and never come on to say you know what you need to kind of quit on this floor business because it's not really going anywhere because that senior naval head of the indian naval command cordon like you know what we're really not too much keen about this business because the intention we're doing having a good relationship at that point of time and of course relations have gone down
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inside of you know quite has gone up and it might just go the other way around but coming back to china as i do the important takeaway from china is to do it in terms of its prices not so much to focus just on the military element you know that the chinese run from 2000 years of conflict that's for free is that it is not what it's trying to squash your enemy because you will not be able to do that better to play to that after a safe and greed and trying to find divisions within them and that is what china is going to do as a 50 trillion 70 trillion dollar economy it is going to find differences but then branches off the west as it did with branches off the mongols and best practice of i think the u.s. needs to be needs to get its game together and frankly as you're seeing out here the comprehensive agreement on investment if china's going to play by those rules advanced country rules and you know the subsidies they are going to say hey let's give the energy to shake hands and into that also what happens that in that case
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where you go in with that well i think if they think that's very interesting i'm going to south to the last question here i mean it a neo liberalism what the u.s. did was financial eyes its economy you know just got the industrialization part of it and the chinese an embrace a very different neo liberalism there the factory of the world and they make all kinds of things we saw this you know these production chains during the that and the ongoing crisis here i mean the ad they've been braced neo liberalism and come out on the winning site when the middle class in america came out on the losing side of the same ideology go ahead sir. of course the. contest between nations. is not it certainly should not be considered in terms of military balance or economics but rather the combination of. an acclaimed russian a moment ago. i'm writing. about defense of character.
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china's regional see these blinded by their treatment of the show genomes should be and can easily get me these japanese but there are threats to use force to take taiwan most are not the 1st sorry i have to jump in here but that of times i sincerely apologize for interrupting that's all the time we have one of them i guess in washington washington and in london i want to thank our viewers for watching this iraqi see you next time remember. that's rather stand. alone one has. i know that i know right now i think that i rather doubt that i was
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a kid and that. i'm going to let them battle right and that's when they can keep an eye on what i. call that and. make them. that. unless and until the whole. if it's call for. i knew they had to pay i think time in theory has said. a. mile farther. mr hate to throw jim and then i hope that our family.
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was a pandemic no certainly no borders and just blind to nationalities. as american people to be we don't look back seem the whole world needs to be. judged as commentary classes until. we can do better we should. everyone is contributing way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges create the response has been masked so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.
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