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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  February 15, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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while josh hawley schools the biden administration for the evolving russia ukraine crisis, part of an ongoing fit to -- the administration's withdrawal from afghanistan, he's also blocked consideration of several top defense department employee appointees, including russia expert, celeste will launder. could become the pentagon's top international security official. so for actively stonewalling the biden administration's appointments with critical experience in the midst of an international crisis, and also for just absolutely terrible, senator josh hawley is tonight's absolute worst. that's tonight's readout, with chris haines starts now. readout, with chris haines starts now. tonight on all in, -- >> we are going to take our power back, we are going to seek the electors. >> hold it hold, it i think we've got some breaking news here. >> breaking news, new subpoenas for the phony elector fraud. >> december 14th, the true electors for the presidencythe e
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electors for the presidenc
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the committee notes in letters to roman and round, they have evidence of their involvement in a coordinated strategy to contact republican members of state legislatures in certain states and former president trump had lost and urge them to reclaim their authority by sending an alternate slate of electors that would support former president trump. committee also subpoenaed the
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former chair of the michigan republican party, it woman named laura cox. committees interested in this event from december 2020 was one of a number that rudy did around that time, where she was a witness to rudy giuliani pressuring michigan republicans to disregard the results of the election and again, directly appoint electors who would vote for trump. three more subpoenas went to people who, while not exactly household names, or some of the most prominent figures promoting donald trump's big lie conspiracy theory. big lies conspiracy theory. you you've got pennsylvania have state senator, pennsylvania state senator doug mastriano, doug who's actually now running for pennsylvania who's governor running for governor -- . mastriano is a darker trump excuse me. supporter, the former he president's is a die hard point man as he tried to trump supporter as he overturn the results of the tried to overturn the election in election pennsylvania. after results in pennsylvania the election in late. the november 2020, senator mastriano -- a public hearing on suppose election fraud in the state. as a committee notes and
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elector today, mastriano participated in a plan to arrange for an alternate slate of electors to be presented to the president of the senate on january 6th. again, they were not >> -- this plot, right, they were doing this fully out in the open. in fact, he told steve bannon all about his plan to introduce a resolution in the state legislature that would allow them to seat a phony slate of trump electors. >> the resolution was, like we are going to take our power back, we are going to seek the electors. obviously, we are going to need the support of the leadership of the house and the senate. we are getting there on that but we need to act like -- >> hold it, hold it, hold it. i think we've got some breaking news here. you are saying you are going to get a joint resolution to actually go forward in the republicans control of the house of the senate to go forward to basically take the power back from the secretary of state and put it in a slate legislator, to put forward the electors? >> that is exactly what we are going to do. >> say what you will about bannon, once in a generation broadcasting talent. and doug mastriano was in
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direct communication with donald trump about those plans mentioned on the bannon podcast. he was among a group of republican members, the pennsylvania legislature, that trump summoned to the white house in november 5th, 2020. although astronaut had to leave the meeting abruptly after being informed he had tested positive to coronavirus. mastriano recovered in time for the planning of the january 6th insurrection, where he spent over $3,000 of his own campaign funds to bust trump supporters to washington, d.c., and he attended the wright himself. mastriano is not the only prominent insurrection attendee who got a subpoena today. the committee also wants to hear from arizona state representative, mark finchem, you can see here, circled in red among the crowd at the capitol on january 6th. finchem tweeted his support for the attempted coup that day, hosting a photo of the rioters and writing, what happens when people feel even ignored and congress refuses to acknowledge rampant fraud? he helped lay the groundwork out of the january 6th.
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as a committee wrote today, finchem advance upsets of substantiated claims about the election, including that it was rigged, the american people had been robbed, and that the country was under assault by foreign powers. he also helped organize a purported hearing at a phoenix hotel, representatives from trump's legal team spoke and wrote advanced on claimed -- the biggest players -- today was another arizona official, and that is the state republican party chairwoman, kelly ward. now ward is something of an infamous figure, i've got to say. you've got to remember, she began plotting with donald trump just days after the election while the votes were still being calculated, right? we did not know who won. the call had not been made. on november 7th, she texted the chairman of the maricopa county board of supervisors, quote, we need you to stop the counting. okay? that was just the beginning of a weeks-long pressure campaign. committee notes in its letter toward that she also asked the official to contact a lawyer, representing the trump campaign, and said i know you don't want to be remembered as the guy who led the charge to certify a
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fraudulent election. kelly ward also use her position to push out bogus claims of election fraud. she said, fund writing fund raising messages talking about the, quote, stolen election. she posted this video about a conspiracy theory about voting machine software. again, asking for donations. then as the committee writes, kelly ward herself acted as a purported electoral college elect or to meet and ultimately transmit to congress a set of alternate electoral college votes. she, herself, was a fake electoral. she signed the phony document that was sent to congress in the national archives, she admitted this publicly. >> december 14th, the true electors for the presidency met yesterday. yes, the republican electors. we gather together, we took a vote for president trump and for mike pence, for president and vice president, we have transmitted those results to the proper entities in washington, d.c., who are in consideration by congress. we believe that we are the
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electors, for the legally cast votes here in arizona. >> now, kelly ward kept pushing for donald trump's fake electors speech all the way through january six. with the capitol was under attack, while mike pence was hiding in a secure location, we were all watching this happen on tv, kelly ward tweeted, quote, congress is adjourned. send the electorate choice back to the legislature's. like, oh look, we've got it, it worked! they are cowering, now we can actually steal it. now the january 6th committee wants to talk to kelly ward about her role in the former presidents attempted coup. they also want to hear from mark finchem and dog masters, three others who -- all have important information in the investigation. we will have to wait and see if any of them will break the pattern we've seen from so many of donald trump's other associates and cooperate. -- is a national correspondent for politico, where she's been extensively covering the ongoing january six investigation and she joins me now. betsy, does seem that the fake electors plot is squarely at
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the center of this latest round of subpoenas and clearly in the eyes of the committee, a very fruitful line of inquiry. >> yeah, no question. and it's also clear that the committee already has collected a lot of information about this scheme that is not yet public. throughout this batch of letters, they repeatedly cite documents on file with the committee and in fact, in the letter to gary michael brown, who is the deputy head of election day operations from the trump campaign, they only cite documents on file with the select committee. gary michael brown is not even not a household name, he's not really a person who's been on the radar of hardly anyone closely tracking this stuff. so that is an important signal that this select committee is really multiple steps ahead of the level of public knowledge when it comes to the extent to which this scheme was planned, coordinated, and orchestrated at a central level. kelli ward it's also just a
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truly fascinating character in all of this. we can expect she's not going to play ball with the committee because they already tried to suit, subpoena her phone records and she sued the committee a couple weeks back to try to keep them from getting those records. so that sends a pretty strong signal. kelli ward is sort of, she was kind of a precursor to trumpism. in 2014, she held it an event in her district to address her constituents, concerns literally about chemtrails. mitch mcconnell's allies called her chemtrails kelly for a long time because they saw her as just too crazy and too fringy to be someone who could ever carry the mantle of the republican party. fast forward a couple of years and according to this letter that the select committee sent toward, they also have documents on file showing that in the lead up to january 6th, she was in communication with trump's staff and with trump himself. again, i know a lot in the
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ascent of kelli ward to really extraordinary access is just a super interesting parallel to trump's own assent and the durability, frankly, of what he's been able to produce. >> well i mean, it's a very good point that kelli ward's trajectory over the last eight years is largely sort of the republican party trajectory. i mean, i covered her in 2014. chuckled at the cantrell kelly line from the mcconnell allies, the idea was that this person was a god fly, fringe, you know, a ridiculous character. she's a chair of the republican party for the state of arizona talking to the president that at that point, the sitting president of the united states, it appears, about how to overturn an election. and this is the kind of person, i mean, it also speaks to the fact that along with kelli ward, you've got to elective representatives. again, these aren't randoms who walking from the street, these are not people that, you know, are just like around floating around the capitol, in finchem and mastriano, these are elected republican officials who are exploring means
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according to the committee, of using state power essentially to overturn the will of the voters in their states. >> that's right and not just elected officials because lord knows there are all sorts of interesting characters who get elected to sleep legislators, these are officials who had reached leadership positions in their parties or positions of significant power in the wake of the january 6th attack that they were both president present outside of the capital building for. doug mask reno has regularly polling second in the republican primary for the pennsylvania governorship. it's going to be really interesting, this is going to sound cynical, but it's going to be interesting to see what happens in these poll numbers, frankly. in the wake of this. is he trying to capitalize on what's going on? mark finchem, he's running for secretary of state in arizona, that would make him the states top election administrator. he's campaigning largely on these, you know, fantastical claims that the 2020 election
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was fraudulent. and trump has endorsed mark finchem for that role. these are not fringy characters, these are characters who are central to the future of the republican party in their states. one thing about finchem that's really interesting just to note through your intro, you had that quote of him talking about how the elections were under assault by a foreign power. that argument was a core part of the case that sydney powell and michael floyd made to argue, to call on trump to have the military seized voting machines. they said, we've been attacked by a foreign country and a foreign country has changed the number of votes that were cast. and therefore the military has to go in. these kind of things sound like hyperbole until they are not. >> betsy woodruff swan, great as always. the rundown on today's -- we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> democratic congressman jamie raskin, of maryland, a member of the january six committee, he was also the lead impeachment manager of donald trump's second impeachment.
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he joins me now. congressman, what do you think people should conclude about the direction of the investigation or at least the sphere of the fake electorate plot and its significance, based on today's public documents from the committee subpoena-ing documents? >> well, all of it flows out of the big lie, of course, if you started with the premise that donald trump won, then of course you are going to need to go out and certify these fraudulent electors. and we should note that a lot of republicans refused to participate in it, refused to participate in essentially a fraud on the public. if it's a crime for people to go into the ballot box and impersonate a voter for one vote, what do you call it when people come forward and say their electors representing the whole will of the state and they know that that is fraudulent? so this is one part of the overall picture that we are investigating. >> yeah, you know, you make a good point. when i was looking at the names
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today, mastery auto and finchem, the two elected representatives are familiar to me because of their prominence in kind of maga world, the fact that they are running for higher office, the role they play in the election, i guess the glass half full version of this is, there are hundreds of elected republicans across the states and a relatively small amount that were actively plotting along with the president who, as far as we know. >> that's right. there were people who deliberately defied him, like secretary of state brad raffensperger and georgia. there were dozens of election officials who refused to just nullify and vaporize the actual votes of the election. what's interesting though is that donald trump's only consolidated his control over the gop, which now operates like an authoritarian political religious cult. and the people who said no to him are being systematically opposed and purged by his
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party. so you've got entire political party which has positioned itself outside of the constitutional order, which is attacking the outcome of our elections and our basic constitutional processes. so it's a very dangerous moment for our democracy and so, we want to look and see what every element of the attack on the 2020 election was. >> what can you tell us about the former lawyer to the former president, rudy giuliani and his cooperation with the committee? >> well, we expect him to cooperate. you know, basically every systematic defense against cooperation has been shot down by the courts. there's just nothing valid there. if you want to plead the fifth amendment because you have an authentic and honest belief that you might incriminate yourself, well, we respect that but we respect it in the way that the courts have upheld it, which is, it has to be something that you assert in person to specific questions
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and not some kind of magic wand that you try to wave over the entire proceedings. so, you know, we are willing to hear what giuliani has got to say but he has an obligation like every other american citizen who participates and again, the big picture here to my mind, chris, is the vast majority of people, whatever side they were on in these horrific events, the vast majority of people have come forward to participate and are cooperating with the committee, which is why we know so much. >> yeah, final question for you. there's an op-ed by former federal judge, michael lug, a conservative judge who consulted with mike pence, told him he did not have the power to rule in the fashion that donald trump was urging or commanding him to. he wrote an op-ed basically saying look, the system we have, the electoral count act, is just plainly unconstitutional and we have to fix it. did you find that encouraging? >> well, judge lueck was brought in by the former u.s. attorney richard collin who is
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acting as a private counsel to then vice president pence and he played a positive role in terms of the pouring water all over john eastman's fantasies. you know, everybody on the trump side understood that there was no merit to anything that eastman was saying and of course, more than 60 courts had already rejected all of the claims of electoral corruption and fraud. you know, it was based on. i guess i would say, you know, their problems historically with the electoral count act but it's too easy to say, well let's make a few adjustments to electoral count act and call it a day. i mean, we have a movement that's based on fascist politics and ideas, and just declaring what we all know already to be true under the 12th amendment, which is that the vice president does not have the power to repudiate electors but instead just officiate over the proceeding. i don't think that gets too far and i would hate to see that
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used as an excuse or an alibi for not doing anything else to correct the situation. >> that was an interesting reaction, i don't know what you are going to say. congressman jamie raskin, thank you so much. >> thank you so much, chris. >> coming up, allow me to introduce you to the newest candidate for colorado secretary of state, tina peters. >> i, tina. my name is michael -- >> i wish you would investigate this ballot and election fraud. >> a wild tale of the troupe trump loving county clerk under -- investigations who is running to become the states top election official. after this. to become the states top election official. after this after this
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coming out of the investigation out of january six, is that ultimately, as i was saying to the congressman, a very small group of people are the most gotten collaborators on donald trump. most people rejected his sociopathic ideas. it's a safe thing. save american democracy from its most serious threat since the civil war. that was also brought the truth at the state local level, people like raffensperger, maricopa county officials -- had an anti authoritarian push. there are a few outliers, and there's one story that's particularly worrisome does it shows the officials actively collaborating with trump's
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claim of fraud well after the ballots were counted. this is the story of messi county clerk tina peters, she's a local official in charge of elections and mesa county. she's also a major proponent of trump's big lie of the stolen election. she's currently under federal alice investigation for alleged involvement in security breach of the states voting machines. quote, in may of last, year miss peters and two other people entered a secure area of a warehouse and meza county where crucial election information was stored. they compete hard drives in election management software from voting machines. peter says she was making copies on the hard drives for backup. additionally, las vegas, they were banned from use after stolen machines made their way to a conservative blog. but the office of secretary -- they leaked. peters brought an associate to secretly recorded a routine maintenance procedure on voting machines.
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after investigating the machines, peters and her associates tempered with, ironically, they were left less secure. that's a -- according to the court filings, they found two altered settings that made the machines vulnerable. okay, not great. more than not great. but a legit offenses don't and. their peters made headlines again just last week, you might have seen this, after she tried to kick a police officer in connection with a another alleged crime. this time, she's being accused of using her ipad to illegally records the court hearing of her colleague who is been charged with felony burglary for -- in the voting machine data breach. in a photo released by law enforcement, you can see peters there on the ride with her ipad propped up, facing the proceedings, as peters being arrested, she accused the police officers of deep speed conspiracy against her. >> let go of me!
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let go of me! >> you understand? >> stop it! no! let go of me! do you really know what you're doing? you're assisting merrick garland to not show the truth of what the election shows -- >> okay, scoot over. >> do you really know? >> hi tina. again, my name is michael strew and i work for the da's office. i wish you would investigate this ballot issue an election fraud. >> this is what's -- >> okay, that happened. last week i think. last, year the colorado secretary of state sought to remove her from her role because, again, she was accused of stealing data from the voting rights jeans and letting associates getting into the machines, and finding its way online. the last thing you want from a person in charge of the elections in your county. in response, she responded by saying she would be running for secretary of state herself. secretary of state can't remove you from your position if you are the secretary of state.
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it would come with the added bonus of overseeing elections for all of colorado. she made her announcement on, where else? steve bannon's podcast. >> i am the wall we to claim your vote and nationalized of elections. they are coming after me because i am standing in their way. of truth and transparency in elections, bringing hope to the people. >> okay. i know what you're thinking. i want to, and peters as a ridiculous figure, mired in scandal. colorado was not a solidly blue state. this year's elections are expected lead to heavily favor republican candidates. look, she can win the primary and, in a tough year for democrats, can she win state in colorado? yes, there's a possibility. this lady who is currently under investigation for tampering with election machines, who pushes donald trump's big lie, who goes as far as to speak at the conference of that mike pillow dude, that women could
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conceivably be in charge of overseeing all of colorado's elections in 2024. don't delude yourself into thinking it cannot happen. jena griswold is the current colorado state secretary of state, she said today that tina peters is unfit to be the secretary of state and is a danger to colorado elections. she joins me now. i guess i want to start with asking -- i mean, you reacted to her getting into the race. how seriously should i take this declared entry into the race? is this an actual campaign? >> well, thanks for having me on, chris. and time will tell. but i am the first democrat elected to secretary of state since eisenhower was president. so that's in 60 years. and frankly, tina peters is a danger to colorado elections. she compromised her voting equipment, costing her county nearly 1 million dollars of replacement. she's under criminal investigation, she works with election deniers like mike lindell and steve bannon. she was just arrested last week
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and try to kick a cop. she is unfit to serve. and i am running for reelection to continue the work of making colorado's elections the best in the nation. so dumb -- and if your viewers want to help me defeat tina peters, and to stand up to these big lie candidates, they can join me add jenna for colorado.com. >> there are many counties and colorado and many clerks that oversee boards of elections. i don't need to keep turning our attention to an optimistic account, but, you know, how much of an outlier is miss peters behavior both in which he says, in her role over suing? i'm sure you're working with county election officials across the political spectrum. how common is this kind of thing in your state? >> we colorado has wonderful county clerks. the majority of our county clerks are republican and they do everything they can to make
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sure we have great elections. they succeed. we just had 86.5% of active voters turn out to cast a ballot in the middle of a pandemic. with that said, we are really seeing the effects of the big lie in various ways. one of those ways is insider threats. where election officials try to destroy from within. tina peters was the first case, but we've seen subsequent cases. two in michigan, one in ohio, and i'm currently investigating another county for breaching security protocols. so this is spreading along with fake audits, along with the voter suppression. and we need strong people as secretary of state to make sure that we are protecting election so that american voters gonna have their voice heard and choose their elected officials. >> so i'm clear on this, what you're saying is, people close to election machines, who are trusted by the public, whether by civil servants or elected to some position, coming under the sway of the big lie and essentially mucking with the machines, in pursuit of
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uncovering it. >> so we are seeing extremists like steve bannon recruit people into local the fischel administration, i don't think that it's a coincidence that tina peters announced on his show. the washington post has reported that election deniers have been recruited into civil servant positions both in my office and the pennsylvania secretary of state office. we are seeing attacks on election infrastructure. that includes the vitriol in that both republican and democratic election workers to get them to set down. and that filled the offices with election deniers. so it's something the country has to be aware of. luckily, colorado has some of the best election security in the nation. and i'm running legislation working with our legislature to make sure that regarding even further against insider threats. but it underlines the need of that oversight position. the secretary of state position, to make sure that the great county clerks get the support they deserve in the voters, in
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counties, like mesa county, where the election official is not doing her job. that there's over sides to make sure those elections still function very well. >> all right, colorado secretary of state, tom jena griswold, thanks for joining us. >> thanks chris. >> coming, up the families of the sandy hook victims reached a landmark, a $73 million settlement. the gun manufacturer, ranked an arms. by a legal loophole to hand hold them accountable. more after this. loophole to han loophole to han for people living with h-i-v, keep being you.m accountable. more after this. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test.
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extremely tense as the world waits to see if russia will decide to invade ukraine. they began on an optimist note with the russian president vladimir putin announcing the decision to pull back some troops. the u.s. officials said they had not verified any withdrawal. a series of cyberattacks knock out the websites of several important agencies in ukraine, including those of the defense ministry, the foreign ministry, the culture ministry, and ukraine's two major banks. today, president biden expressed a desire to find a political -- diplomatic solution that will avoid bloodshed. >> we are willing to make practical steps that can advance our common security. we will not sacrifice basic principles though.
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nations have a right to sovereignty and territorial integrity. they have the freedom to set their own course and shoes with whom they will associate. but that leaves plenty of room for diplomacy and for de-escalation. we have not yet verified the russian military unit if they are retaining to their home bases. indeed, our analysts indicate that they remain very much in the threatening position. the fact remains right now, russia has more than 150,000 troops in circling the ukraine and belarus, and along ukraine's border. an invasion remains distinctly possible. >> joined now by democratic senator chris murphy, he's a member of the senate formulations committee he traveled to ukraine, senator, good to have you on. what did you think of the presidents remarks today? >> i think there were smart, clearly leaving the window open for diplomacy. but making it clear, we are not
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going to trade away basic principles of democracy and sovereignty. it's up to ukraine whether they want to be oriented east or west. it's not up to russia, nor's it up to us. i don't have any intelligence to confirm that the russians are leaving, but i do think it's important to remember, an invasion is putin's last worst option. frankly, he's been very publicly building up troops on the border in hopes that he would have to use them. his hope was that he would either collapse the zelensky government and a panic. he would create fissures inside the transatlantic alliance, or he would maybe get a deal with the west in which we capitulate. he has none of those things. now, the only option he has to go forward with an invasion that is likely going to be cataclysmic for his own army and his country. i don't know whether he turns around, but i think he has lost already by not using this threat to change the reality
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inside ukraine are inside the west. >> i want to follow up on something you just said and said last time you are on, something about self determination. i want to stipulate that it's obviously monstrous to use a buildup of 150,000 troops and threaten invasion to get diplomatic concessions. it's obviously cataclysmic and monstrous, to just invade a country, because you don't like what they are doing. that said, the head of nato today was talking about the fact that ukraine is very unlikely to ever achieve nato membership. the nato alliance doesn't have to be -- the nato can change -- it can choose its own members, it doesn't french on democracy. talk about turkey getting into the eu. it does seem a bit crazy that the point of conflict here is ukraine -- ukrainian membership in nato which i feel like everyone knows is not gonna happen anyway, why doesn't matter to not just say that, i guess, is what i'm asking? >> it's not going to happen in the short term because ukraine
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hasn't qualified for membership. they still have to do work to clean up corruption. but what -- putin wants is a binding document that commits nato countries and ukraine to never have ukraine as a member. that's giving up not only the sovereignty of ukraine, that's giving us giving up our own sovereignty. and that's for putin to mount troops on the border of bulk and countries for instance and tell the european union, unless they drop plans to bring, you know, countries there inside the u.p. and union, there will be an invasion. once you get from those, it's hard to understand where it stops. and it's not just about ukraine sovereignty, it's about our sovereignty. if europe in the united states decides that we want ukraine inside the european union, it should be vladimir putin who gets to decide. but of course, this is all presupposed by his belief that nato is a threat to him. nato is not a threat to him. he's on the defensive, it's a defensive alliance. we have to push back the idea that russia is harmed in any
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way by the nato alliance growing bigger. we are not looking to invade russia. we are simply working together to protect ourselves. >> let me ask you about the settlement that was reached today. i know it's something you have been following closely, i know that your close to the families that suffered that horrible loss of a decade ago. this was a long time in the making, a lot of people thought it would come. what is your reaction to? it >> you know, it's interesting. this settlement is the maximum amount that riminton was insured for, they had tried to make an offer earlier for about half to one third of this amount. it's important because it's gonna signal to the insurance industry that they need to raise rates for the makers of ar-15s, because now this president has been said there are likely going to be a lot of other air ar-15 makers that we're gonna be forced into similar settlements. second the family's got trevor trove of documents from
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bloomington that they have the ability to release under the settlement, that will explain to the public how these companies have marketed these guns to the kind of unhinged individual that used it on these kids in sandy hook. so, the tale of this lawsuit, the ramifications, the consequence of the settlement, are going to be significant and they're gonna last for a long time. my thanks to those families and to their legal team for holding out, frankly, for a lot longer than many thought was possible in getting this pretty important landmark settlement. >> all right, senator chris made free, i hope the next time we talk it's about the de-escalation happening in eastern europe and russia. coming up, thank you very much. coming up, doctor anthony fauci says we are heading out of the full blown pandemic phase of covid-19. all asking what comes next after this. covid-19 covid-19 all asking what comes after this we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps.
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coronavirus pandemic is almost
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as old as well the pandemic itself. two years ago, february 2020, when the virus was just taking hold in the u.s. was the first identified cases. donald trump was already telling us it would be over soon, remember quote, a lot of people think it goes away in april with a heat, as he comes in typically that will go in april. the virus did not go away in april on april of that here or april of next year, or go away the other times that it look like we might be finally turning the corner on the pandemic. so tonight, the optimism is rightfully cautious, but the facts are covid cases are falling across the country. and even doctor fauci is now say the full-blown phase of the pandemic may be finally coming to an end in the u.s.. and doctor anthony fauci, director for the -- infectious diseases, chief medical adviser, prided enjoys beau joe biden joins me now. okay, i've been covering the pandemic for two years now, i've had a lot of turning the corner moments, i'm none of them have quite panned out. is there a reason to think that
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something deep structurally has shifted to put us in a different place right now? >> well, chris, as i've said multiple times, we are going in the right direction. if you look at the number of cases, and the number of hospitalizations, they clearly are on a rather steep decline down. but we're not out of the woods yet. and would i have said, hopefully, we are coming to a phase now where if the infection dynamic goes way down and we have protection for people who are vaccinated, people who are prior infected and hopefully would get vaccinated after, and continue to get the people who've been vaccinated fully to be boosted, together with the availability soon and more and more as the months go by of any viral drugs testing, that hopefully will continue that downward trajectory. and keep it at a level where
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when we look at what we are trying to make the parameters of how we can start to get back to normal, much more how do we protect against severe divvies disease and hospitalization, as opposed to the number of cases. but right now, where we are, there is a big caveat out there, chris. i don't want to give people any false optimism except to say is good news that it keeps going down. every day you see cases go down, and you see hospitalizations go down. i believe if we continue to do the right things, and again, i don't want to sound like a broken record, but the right thing is if you're vaccinated, get boosted. the boosters really work and protecting you against severe davies. this is an extraordinarily difficult virus in that it transmits very very easily. but if you want to protect against severe disease, and that's gonna be the parameter of getting out of this difficult phase, then that's where boosters come in, that's where therapy comes in, and
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that's where vaccination comes in. >> let's talk about boosting, this to me is a kind of stand out in a bad way. we saw -- we did not have -- we had elevated levels of mortality 4000 cases or residents compared to other places, and i think a huge part of that is hey, our health care -- we have bad health inequality in this country, worse than other countries. but also, we have a lower booster right. so right, now 64% of the country's fully vaccinated, only 20% is boosted. and look, i think you can chalk up our lower vaccination rate to higher levels of vaccine resistance. what is the answer to our lower booster rate, why are we not where we should be, what can we do to improve? >> well, i believe what we need to continue to get the message across, chris, that the data are so crystal clear. when you do the charts, the data don't lie, the real, there
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are facts. when you look at the unvaccinated, the amount of people, the rape or hospitalization, followed by vaccinated, by followed by vaccinated and boosted, vaccinated and boosted, if you look at that level, it's such an extremely low level. so we have to keep getting people to appreciate, maybe they need to hear more information. we've got to get people who they trust to be talking to them about why it's important. the data don't lie. and that's the thing that's so frustrating, because we have such a degree of diverse opinions here, when the data is constant. so you can't argue with the data. >> well, and i think, on the booster, we've had on this program you were very pro booster from the very beginning, even when there was dissension among the ranks of public health experts. this was a big ship fight. you came on my show and you said basically i'm right in the wrong, i think you prove to be right, there was early data in israel particularly. that data picture has just gotten clearer, and clear, and clear. we didn't know in the beginning,
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as well as we know now. there's just a ton of data on boosters. but it seems to me -- here's my theory, and i want you to tell me what you think, when you read about people being done with covid, i get that, i think we all do. like, no one wants to be an epidemic indefinitely. my fear is that done with covid it has meant people are just done with it meaning, i'm not getting my kid vaccinating, i'm not getting boosted. i'm not a 90 vaccine person, i'm not someone who's got some weird obsession with how doctor ifunny fauci is like the worst person in the world, i'm just done. and that's my fear is that that it is exhaustion is going to break us off at a point that is not sufficient to get the immunity of what we need. >> right. i think your concern is justifiable, chris. that when people say done with covid. done with covid means you want to get back to normality, to the extent that you can. but the fact is, you'll get back to normality when you have
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a certain percentage of people who have immunity. that immunity could either be infection, and hopefully people would get booster after, even though you get a good degree of protection from prior infection, but if you really want to get the epidemic behind you, put it in the rearview mirror, just saying you're done with covid. you may be done with covid but covid is not done with the united states, norris covid done with the world. we've got to do what it takes to get it to be done. but unfortunately, as you've given the statistics about the number of people boosted, we've just gotta do better to get people boosted. the protection is profound with boosting. >> yeah, there's so much of mask mandates and social distancing in schools. i just want to say, if you are watching this program and you're not boosted, please, please get boosted. if your kid is not vaccinated, i have personally of my kids vaccinated, i highly recommend that you do that. that is a huge thing people can
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do. there's still a lot of low hanging fruit there. doctor anthony fauci, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> good to be with you, chris, thank you for having me. >> all right, that is all in on this tuesday night. the rachel maddow no-show starts now -- good evening, alex. >> good evening, thank you chris. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour, it is hard to believe now that there was a time when being able to safely take a hammer to it was one of its biggest selling points. quote, hammer the hammer of a loaded diver johnson revolver without the fear of discharge, you take no risk. this gun is so safe, you can literally take a hammer to it, and it will not go off by mistake. and then there's this one. this ad has a gun in the hands of a little girl. papa says it will not hurt us. accidental discharge, impossible. given the aggressive sensational culture around gun ownershi

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