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tv   Velshi  MSNBC  January 22, 2022 5:00am-6:00am PST

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"velshi" starts now. good morning to you, it is saturday, january the 22nd. i'm ali velshi, the property to overthrow the 2020 election continues to unfold before our very eyes. it turns out that the deadly january 6th insurrection carried out by a violent mob of the failed president's supporters a little over a year ago was just the most clumsy, obvious attempt to overthrow democracy. the house january 6th committee has now obtained over 700 pages of documents that include visitor logs, speech drafts, presidential diaries, and handwritten notes. this might put the committee one step closer to figure out what the ex-president was up to during and after the january 6th attack. perhaps the most shocking of the hundreds of documents is an unsigned draft of an executive action obtained by "politico," that executive action would have
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allowed then president trump to authorize the secretary of defense to send national guard troops to seize voting machines around the country in the weeks following the 2020 election. now, "politico" also reports the draft order would have given the defense secretary 60 days to write an assessment of the 2020 election. that suggests that it could have been a gamut to keep trump in power until at least mid-february of 2021, end quote. nbc has not reviewed these documents. in a moment i'm going to speak with betsy woodruff-swan, one of the reporters to break the news. and focusing on whether the ex-president and his cronies were behind the republican electorate to send the fake slate to deny joe biden's win. in seven key states, pro trump electors, including many local republican officials submitted fake documents awarding their
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state's electoral votes to trump despite biden's legitimate victory in those states. but we're now learning that this just wasn't some coincidence. both "the washington post" and cnn are reporting that this attempt to overturn the election results in several states was actually part of a full-fledged scheme. and take a wild guess who was, allegedly, at the helm of this patently undemocratic plot, hmm, "the washington post" reports, quote, the trump electors gathered in plain sight assisted by campaign officials and trump attorney rudolph w. giuliani who said publicly that the rival slates were necessary and appropriate. internally, giuliani oversaw the effort end quote. meanwhile michigan republican party cochair was parolly corroborating the story and said the trump campaign directed hem
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to seek fake gop delegates, according to audio obtained by cnn. >> we fought to see the electors. the trump campaign asked us to do that under a lot of scrutiny for that today. >> it's hard to hear but that's what he said, under a lot of scrutiny to hear today. scrutiny is what you get when you try to overturn an election in a democracy. as we can see now, beyond the january 6th riot, the country came perilously close to losing that democracy, and the thing is there's abundant evidence that trump and his followers are still working on this plot, still trying to install election deniers into key roles, trying to figure out how to fix the flaws that sunk the plot in the first place, and there are approximately zero new safeguards to stop them. for more on this, i'm joined by betsy woodruff-swan a national correspondent for politico, and msnbc contributor. good morning to you, thank you
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for your excellent reporting on this. we had been speculating for some time what might be in the 700 documents that trump didn't want the national archives to give to the committee. you have discovered a few doozies, including which looks like an extra judicial attempt to have the military seize ballot boxes and have an examination of them go on for two months that would have passed the inauguration date. >> that's right. not just illegal, but legally incomprehensible. one expert i talked to said it was the equivalent of it looked like it had been written in crayon. at the same time, there's content in this executive order that i obtained a copy of that's deeply disturbing. we don't know who wrote this executive order. we know that trump didn't sign it. we also know, however, that feasibly there's nothing keeping the president from putting his name on a piece of paper like this. one thing that i find uniquely sobering about this executive
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order comes in the very first paragraph. in the first paragraph the author of the executive order lays out the authorities that were justified, the president telling the defense secretary to seize voting machines, things like the constitution, things like a very well known executive order governing the intelligence community but it also refers to two documents that caught my eye. they're called national security presidential memorandum 13, and national security presidential memorandum 21. the fact that a document called national security presidential memorandum 21 even exists was not public information until we reported on the this draft executive order. i saw it in the draft executive order, made some calls and learned that both of these memoranda are classified. they're not public documents, and the case of 21, it was a small universe of people know that the documents exist.
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it governs the way the u.s. relates to cyber attacks. these are sensitive secrets, and whoever wrote the executive order is someone who bought into some of the wackiest conspiracy theories, and something who knew something nonpublic and sensitive regarding sensitive u.s. government secrets. it's sobering. >> you talk about the authorities that the executive order cites, many we have talked to, including chris krebs who oversaw the election, and called it one of the safest elections we've had, brought up the whole concept that militaries are for work outside the country, and should not be involved in civil administration. goes back to roman times about why generals were not allowed to cross the rubicon river under command of an army coming back into rome. it seems obvious, every member of the military knows this rule, you can't be involved in civil
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stuff inside the country. how did the administration think that might have even possibly been legal? >> to be clear. we don't know that this executive order was produced by someone in the administration. in fact, the draft executive order, what it most closely recalls are proposals that sidney powell, an outside lawyer who did work for president trump was advocating for at the time. the draft executive order is dated december 16th. two days later on december 18th, sidney powell, michael flynn and the former ceo of had a meeting with president trump in the oval office where they urged him to seize the voting machines and to appoint sidney powell as a special counsel to supervise essentially the relitigation of the 2020 election. again, i don't have confirmation as to who wrote this executive order but if we're looking at sort of the universe of folks who were very close to trump, very influential and pushing
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ideas in that fragile time in american history between election day and january 6th, what we see in this executive order has the most overlap for what sidney powell was advocating for at the time. >> you and i have known each other for a while. you are an excellent reporter. this is a whole other level of stuff. as an observer, not a reporter but an observer of politics in this country, my mind is blown by this stuff. we thought something was happening in december and january of last year, it's substantially worse than we thought. >> the document is jaw dropping. as i saw reading it, i sort of had to pause every minute or two and think what did i just read. i would recommend that people read the document for themselves. it's a real trip and it's extraordinary that it was in the white house. >> i would agree with that. i would also recommend reading the letters that the january 6th committee has sent out this week. they detail a lot that they know. thankfully our viewers know some
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of it. you have joined us regularly to keep us up to speed. we appreciate your reporting. betsy woodruff swan a national correspondent for politico, also an msnbc contributor. joining me is the democratic congressman, juaquin castro of text. served as a house manager in donald trump's impeachment trial. warm welcome to you. it's very good to see you again this week. this week has been remarkable, between the release of these ar archives that have shocking information that you heard us just talking about and the subpoenas, and information and letters that have gone out from the january 6th committee, i think this whole landscape looks incredibly different than it did even a week ago. >> absolutely, and to me, it signifies that the january 6th commission is doing its job. bennie thompson is getting to the bottom of what happened on january 6th, and who planned it. it wasn't just a group of people
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who suddenly got upset, and couldn't constrain themselves and decided to break into the capitol building. it's becoming clearer and clearer that donald trump and his minions orchestrated this at every level for a long time and ultimately the january 6th commission is going to have to make sure that every single person that helped plan that attack on the capitol, including members of congress and if the evidence bears out, including the president of the united states are held accountable. >> let me ask you about this, congressman. at this point people have been intractable, they decided they know what they know, and it's not clear anything the january 6th committee does is going to change their opinion. except in my opinion, this week does change things. the documents out of the
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national archive, using the military to seize voting machines. i wonder if that changes hearts and minds of those who sit across from you, those republicans who have refused to condemn the big lie. >> i think, ali, that a lot of them understand there was something deeply wrong with what donald trump and his folk ds, and suspect that some of that conduct may have been illegal. the question is whether they're going to act on that what i think are private beliefs that they have. you know, it's one thing for them to believe and to know that something wrong happened, but it's entirely something else for them to risk their political futures and i think at this point a concern for the safety of themselves and their family members to actually go against donald trump and try to help hold people accountable. >> congressman, i want to ask you about your home state of texas, we are seeing the real life effects of the state legislative voting restrictions
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taking place. there are people on the voting roles in a number of counties in texas. tens of thousands of people who have wholesale been removed. they might not know they have been removed, by the way. >> that's right. texas, they have been building up to this for years but have accelerated their voter suppression efforts, the state has, over the last few years, the last year in particular, and a few examples, as you mentioned, removing people from the voting roles where people don't know where it's going on. you get to a situation you show up to vote, and all of a sudden you're not on the rolls and not allowed to vote. they have made an excuse, the secretary of state, they have run out of paper, so they can't provide registration forms to these voter registration groups that are trying to go out and do the hard work, the grass roots work of registering people to vote, and then as i'm sure people have seen these stories about bear county, which is my hometown of san antonio, dallas, harris county, and others,
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reject ago large share of the mail ballot applications because of the new laws passed by the republicans in the state legislature, and you know, just one clear example of something that's very pernicious, it's a small thing, but gives a concrete example of how they're able to do this. when you submit a mail application, you have to make sure you write down either your driver's license or social security number, and you have to use the one that you originally used when you registered to rote. and if you don't use the proper one, your ballot can be rejected. it's a small thing, but a concrete example of how they get away with this kind of voter suppression. >> it's exactly the kind of thing that would cause my ballot to be rejected because i go to buy something, and they say what's the last four digits of the credit card you used. i don't know. >> it's little pieces of confusion that dissuade people from registering and the voter
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may say this isn't worth my time or i have to get back to work. this is how it happens. this is how democracy unfolds. good to see you this morning for all the wrong reasons. democratic congressman juaquin castro of texas. the situation on the ukraine border intensifies, experts are saying a russian invasion seems not just likely but imminent. admiral james breaks this down. after the break we will head to ukraine for a report on the ground from nbc's correspondent richard engel. ground from nbc's correspondent ground from nbc's correspondent richard engel. ♪are you ready♪ when you really need to sleep. you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most.
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. the world is watching and waiting for russia's next move, as president vladimir putin positions his military for a possible invasion of ukraine. u.s. officials say it's not really a matter of if russia is going to invade, it's rather an
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issue of when. russia is toughening its stance by announcing more military drills in the region, while more than 100,000 troops are already amassed near the ukrainian border. the u.s. state department has approved the allied shipment of anti-armor missiles. yesterday, the u.s. secretary of state antony blinken met with russia's foreign ministers who had some demands. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel is in ukraine with the latest on those discussions. >> reporter: what we're seeing is the ukrainian government and the biden administration trying to get back on the same page. there was a bit of a riff after president biden's initial comments suggesting a small incursion could trigger one kind of response as opposed to a full russian invasion. the government responded anxietily, there's no such thing
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as a small incursion. after clarifications, a phone call from secretary of state, antony blinken, the ukrainian government said they're thankful of the u.s. efforts now. they're working on diplomacy. and they seem to have ironed over whatever dispute happened, and that's important because the ukraine, the united states, and nato, if they're going to prevent a russian invasion and get vladimir putin to back down and pull his forces back without giving up major concessions are going to have to be or at least appear to be as united as possible. what we are sort of all waiting for right now, what russia is certainly waiting for, is written responses, and it sounds easy, russia has said it wants written answers from the united states to address its security concerns. but it is far more complicated
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to write down specific answers to russia's very broad requests. russia has made a request that nato never expand into ukraine, never expand into georgia, and that it shrink away from russia's borders. so how was the u.s. going to respond to that. is the u.s. going to respond by saying, yes, we will never include ukraine. it's not going to say that. it has said many many times, nato decides its own members. but if it writes too harsh of a response, and lays down too many red lines, that could just give vladimir putin ammunition to show to his people, look, nato won't give us what we want, and nato intends to expand. so the u.s., russia, it seems, by demanding written responses is trying to box the u.s. in, and it's actually quite a smart diplomatic move. now, the u.s. has promised to
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give russia some sort of written answers whether it just cut and pastes previous foreign policy statements, and previous u.s. positions, and hands them over to russia or it crafts new policy is something that i think certainly here in ukraine they're going to be watching very very closely. >> richard, thanks as always for your reporting. we'll stay in close touch with you. nbc's richard engel is in ukraine. president biden says russia is going to pay a heavy price if it invades ukraine. biden needs to look no further than his former boss, putin doesn't respond to threats. we'll dive more into this intense situation after the break. more into this intense situation after the break.
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tensions remain high in anticipation of an invasion by russia. the united states and its nato allies are doing what they can to maintain diplomacy in russia and diffuse the situation. president biden didn't mince words this week about what would happen if russia breaches its eastern neighbor. >> if any, any assembled russian units move across the ukrainian border, that is an invasion. but will be met with severe and coordinated economic response that i have discussed in detail with our allies, as well as laid out very clearly for president putin, but there's no doubt, if putin makes this choice, russia will pay a heavy price. >> sorry about that, error. obviously ukraine is russia's western neighbor, not eastern neighbor. joining me now is a history professor at nyu and the author of the book, "strongmen" from
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mussolini to the president. tell me about what you make of what's happening in ukraine. i ask you this in the context of the fact that russia has made claims about ukraine, and why it should be in there, and why it is there to protect its interests and russian speaking people in ukraine. this is a very familiar refrain that we have been hearing for over a hundred years throughout europe to justify wars and invasions. >> so democracy is the enemy for putin, and having a democracy on his doorstep like ukraine is absolutely intolerable. putin is the product of the soviet system and the only way he's going to feel safe is to kind of revive a version of the soviet client system with belarus, you see how schenkon is playing his game and supporting him. the goal is not to prevent ukraine from having nato
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protection but destroy ukraine unless it's going to be fully occupied. he occupied crimea in 2014. with strongmen, it's about making the nation great again, and in putin's version this is reviving a version of the soviet empire. >> i want to talk about tactics right now. you said "time" magazine back in november of 2020, but it seems relevant now about putin. one thing that has changed in the 21st century is the play book that comes from putin, about censuring people, trying to confuse everybody flooding the zone with noise. that's a big difference in the 21st century, made possible but the speed of social media. you're making a connection between russia's traditional claims to the states in eastern europe, they call ukraine one of them and putin's methodology for underscoring his expansionist
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ideas? >> yes, so as we see from the build up near the ukraine border with tactical battalions and conventional forces, that's still very active, but putin is the master of political warfare, of informational warfare, of casting doubt on troops and making it very difficult to know what is the truth. at the same time, he recycles very old themes of victimization by the west, and of course that's a cover up for his aggression, and the thing that's interesting about putin is, you know, strongmen don't really negotiate, and i was against the june biden putin summit because i predicted it would make putin more reckless. the only time they like to negotiate, and that word should be between crisis, and then they can extract concessions. >> to be clear, the idea here is
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that the crisis of putin's creation is designed to get the u.s. to the table to give russia things they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. >> that's right. and it may be easy to extract, you know, that the uk not join nato because that was something that he was lukewarm about. the other thing is it's a way to prevent the real, you know, targeting of putin. you have to go after his money. you have to expel him from the international banking system. you have to go after the assets of his cronies, of his oligarchs, the people nearest to him, and creating all of these crises of militarily distracts from that goal, and also most important, stopping the certification of the nordstream pipeline, you see that germany is being very wishy washy about
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going after putin because they depend on his energy sources. >> ruth, we appreciate your time this morning and your context always. we appreciate that. ruth ben-ghat is a professor of history at the new york university, the author of "strongmen from mussolini to the president,". a shepherd who dedicated his life to peaceful resistance: he's small in stature, but his presence was towering, and posed a threat to the israeli government. ence was towering, ad a threat to the israeli manage your payroll taxes. cheers. 100% accurate payroll tax calculations guaranteed. once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry ans trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone.
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imagine this, you and your family live on land that you've owned for decades, maybe even close to a century. you live a simple, peaceful life in a small village within a community of people you have known for as long as you can remember. and then seemingly out of nowhere, a new group of people build their own village right on your village's land. not like neighbors, though, rather they are intent on displacing and replacing you. they build their homes on your land with the sanction of the government and the protection of the military. now there's barbed wire where your sheep used to graze. you live in the shadow literally of homes that look like they were transplanted from 21 century america to your rustic village, while your fellow villagers lack basic necessities. your home, humble as it may seem
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remains standing and for now you're still allowed to live in it. almost weekly, you watch government forces demolish houses, confiscate property and arrest your neighbors. that's what's happening to palestinians in the west bank. it's been happening for years. the west bank was occupied by the israeli army during the 1967 war. international law forbids to settle on lands they occupy as a result of a contract if there's no treaty in place about the transfer of control, and asserts its rights in the west bank, actively promoting what the rest of the world sees as illegal settlements on land taken from palestinian, often with the support of the united states. all palestinians in the occupied territories live under israeli military rule. even in those areas that are nominally under the political control of the palestinian authority. and as israel continues to confiscate what little
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palestinian land is left under false pretenses every year. now, according to the palestinian bureau of statistics, as of 2019, more than 688,000 israeli settlers live in 150 settlements which are spread disruptively across the west bank and east jerusalem. the man right here is el hodge sal mon, he was a shepherd and a well known anti-occupation activist. he was a small man with no weapons. he resisted the occupation through civil disobedience. when israeli bulldozers destroyed the homes in his neighborhood, he stood with his shepard staff. hodge solomon is an antiactivation activist in his late 60s who we have known our whole lives.
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every time go to his home, he greets us with a cup of tea and a smile. everyone knows him well, especially the israeli occupation soldiers, end quote. i met him on my last trip to israel, gaza, in the end of 2019. in this photo, we are standing in front of the village's communal bred oven. feet away, the israeli settlement encrouches on their livelihood. they did not appreciate the smoke that wafted from the bread oven into their settlement. they sent the authorities to demolish one of the only food sources in the village. israeli soldiers destroyed a bread oven to satisfy illegal settlers. the harassment continues, the goal was and always is to get palestinians to leave the land, allowing more israeli settlers to populate it. it came to a head days ago. on the afternoon of january 5th, israeli forces his village, and
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began con fi skating registered cars. he peacefully resisted and was run over by a tow truck. he was on the ground battered and bleeding, israeli officials say solomon charged at the truck. witnesses say and there were many of them, say otherwise. what happened next was the real tragedy. witnesses say the tow truck driver and their police escort simply fled the rural village. they did not render aid to solomon, they did not even call for an ambulance. the protester never emerged from his coma and he died of his injuries this week. solomon was a man with little to his name except for his land, his village, and his ability to stand up to an illegal occupation. this small man with just his words and his staff was a thorn in the side of the israeli occupation because he had become a symbol of the resistance, and an emblem of that israeli occupation. m of that israeli occupation
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times up on voting rights legislation, least for now, after democrats failed to change the filibuster rules and pass two comprehensive bills this week. that's a problem in many ways, but particularly because those bills were safety nets for democracy in peril, and now republican states can continue their deliberate pursuit to undermine democracy on a state by state basis. without those partisan senate bills, gerrymandering, voter intimidation, and intense voter suppression can persist, so much so that former attorney general under president obama eric holder told the reporter ari berman that the american experiment is under risk. this might seem like disconnected strategies, but as berman puts it's part of an insidious strategy that goes
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beyond efforts to suppression democratic influence. fueled by the big lie this effort picks up where last year's insurrection left off by systematically taking over every aspect of the voting process end quote. ari berman joins me now, a senior reporter for the mother jones and the author of "give us the ballot the modern struggle for voting rights in america", and steve, the editor of the maddow blog, and the author of the impos tors, how republicans quit governing and seized american politics. good to see you this morning. i have more than a casual affection for democracy, and i go to people like you who study how this democracy is coming apart for a road map on how we avoid it. week after week we're just talking about a new assault on democracy, and not so many successes in holding it up. >> good morning, ali, and thank you for having me.
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i think what we're seeing is what i call an insurrection through other means. where republicans fail to overturn the 2020 election so they're doing everything they can to rig future elections in 2022, and 2024. and they're taking over every aspect of the country's voting system. that's what's so disturbing here. they're doing voter suppression on the front end by making it harder to vote, and also making it harder to vote on the back end, by taking unprecedented control over how and whether votes are counted. and that's really the insidious part of this. at the same time, you have all of these election deniers running for crucial election positions. which the colorado secretary of state, jenna gris wald told me is like giving a robber the key to a bank. there's a multifaceted attack on
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democracy. the freedom to vote act would have gone a long way to stop these efforts. doesn't seem like these are going to pass now. we need a different strategy, and it starts with defending democracy at the state and local level where republicans are taking it aim. >> doesn't that start with citizens understanding and internalizing this threat. we've got a few problems, one is republicans are saying this is a power grab, they're actually saying the opposite of what ari is saying. the democrats are trying to federalize and grab power in elections. there's a mantra that we have to keep our elections safe, even though they are demonstrably safe. the majority of americans polled continue to say they don't have trouble voting so they don't sort of get what this is. they're not feeling this existentially. >> i think that's right. although they will soon. i mean, as ari has explained well, this relentless campaign is underway. we saw polls from 2020, people were satisfied with their access to the ballot.
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that's before 19 states that passed 33 laws that made it harder for americans to vote. americans aren't yet fully prepared for this situation, this antidemocracy dynamic, but in the coming months as they prepare to participate in early voting, and prepare to try and register to vote, those hurdles will get in their way and they'll feel it in a meaningful way. >> let's play that out. people go, we just talked to juaquin castro about the fact that they're making it hard to register to vote in texas for people who voted in the last election. what happens, i'm going to read from your article, if republicans prevail in rigging the 2022 election they'll be even more emboldened in 2024, especially if trump is on the ballot. the lies, exploited by republican lawmakers who know better are being used to lay the groundwork to sabotage elections for real. if everybody doesn't figure this out, to steve's point, before voting day in november, this might be the last election in which we can vote freely and
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fairly. >> that's right, ali, and people are already experiencing this kind of voter suppression. a lot of laws are going into effect. in texas, we are seeing mail ballot rejections in large urban counties increase by 700%. nearly half of all mail nearly ballots being rejected already just in a march primary and that could lead to tens of thousands of votes being thrown out in 2022 and also what's happening is people aren't going to have access to the ballot restricted and the question is whether votes will accurately be counted because republicans have changed the law like georgia to disband local election commissions to stop the steal commissions with more power and then they have the people who don't believe in free and fair elections becoming poll workers and election judges and running for secretaries of state and attorney general. even if voters get past all of the restrictions on voter access. the question is will their votes
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be accurately counted and i'm worried that big lie republicans succeeded in taking over the election system in 2022 is going to be very, very difficult to have a free and fair election in 2024. >> okay. all is not lost. both of you are acutely aware of the dangers. they are real. they are existential, but if you stay with me over this break i will come back and discuss ways that you both thought about that we can remedy this. don't go anywhere. we have it take a quick break because we do have to pay the bills. more on this conversation in a moment. conversation in a moment ♪♪ i'm getting vaccinated with prevnar 20. because there's a chance pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital.
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back with me now. ari berman senior reporter from mother joan and from the rachel maddow show, cnbc contributor. i go on and on and on about how everybody has to be a foot soldier for it and i suspect i bore people and even bore myself sometimes, but the bottom line is we don't have the luxury of being bored with this one. we will realize it like every country, every nation, every civilization that loses democracy, they realize it's gone too late. so now you know what we do, let me start with you, steve. what are the mechanisms available to stop this? >> i have an answer, but i'm not sure you're going to like it. ari has explained it very well and it's a problem and attack on
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democracy, and there are a number of things that can be done. steve bannon, who is not me, has increasing face strategy and advocates should emulate that as much as possible. number two, i think there is an outside litigation strategy. ali, you is talked to mark elias who have had success in this area and they should continue along those lines and it's an important dimension of this. there's a corporate development, perhaps and republicans in state levels are not paying attention, but they might pay attention to big business and the more pressure that they apply in this debate, the better. i don't think the door is closed necessarily on congress. i think we saw this week that voting rights fell short, but at the same time we saw 48 votes and democrats came awfully close and they could actually make some gains in the 2022 elections despite the odds that are
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against that. >> all right. that's some stuff. ari, what's your sense of it. what can and should be done right now? >> i think steve laid it out very well. i'll emphasize one of his points which is a mass mobilization for democracy at the state and local level. we saw so many people get involved in 2020 to become poll workers, to become election officials and to have people have their votes counted and some of that is still going on and a lot of people went back to their lives and the problem is the insurrectionists are filling the void. steve bannon is telling people overthrow your county clerks and run for secretary of state. become an election judge and so people when don't believe in free and fair elections are taking over these election positions. people need to defend democracy at the state and local level doing whatever they can, whether it's becoming a poll worker and election judge. whether it's helping people decide to make sure their ballots are count, whether it's deciding to run for office or
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volunteering in campaigns. we're not that far from electing a majority in congress that will protect american democracy, so we also need a political solution come is for people to actually believe in voting rights. it's amazing to me that joe manchin and kyrsten sinema voted against his own bill. how did joe manchin oppose his own bill so we need 50 democrats in the senate to do whatever it takes to pass voting rights and not just give lip service to it. >> steve, the historian john meacham said to me rather than polling the performance of the president, we should be polling our performance as citizens. this is a crisis of citizenship, but in order for people to understand that, is the mobilization in favor for democracy. you can do it around the muslim ban. you can do it around gay rights and you can do it around abortion and this is a weird one. we don't feel the slow erck roegz of democracy the way we
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feel the erosion of certain other rights. >> i think you're right and that's borne out in polls. we see it in all kinds of survey data that americans don't recognize the degree to which the democracy is in peril that the threats are very real and it's incumbent upon public officials and us as journalists to let them know, look, this is a serious crisis. our democracy cannot be taken for granted. if we're not vigilant it will go away and it will be very difficult to recover for the next generation. >> gentlemen, we appreciate your time and we appreciate your stark analysis of what's going on, but you still have hope in your hearts for democracy and we appreciate the most. author of the modern struggle for voting rights in america. steve behnen is the author of "the imposters" how republicans quit governing and seized american politics. this is now required reading for your future.
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don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. the former nato allied supreme commander on the ukraine-russia border and the latest bombshell developments in the investigation into the january 6th insurrection. another hour of "velshi" begins right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ . good morning. it is 9:00 a.m. in the east. 6:00 amp m. and 4:00 p.m. on ukraine's eastern border on russia. the plot to overturn the 2020 election goes far beyond the deadly attack on the nation's capitol on january 6th, while that was put on by a mob of former president's supporters, it was a plot to overthrow democracy that was quietly unfolding in the background. politico has obtained an unsigned draft that


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