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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  January 10, 2022 1:00pm-3:00pm PST

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hey, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york city. and it's 2022. i'm john heilemann in for nicolle wallace, just for today, though, at a pivotal moment in the january 6th investigation. there's a standoff brewing between the select committee and trump world that could determine the probe's next phase. the latest development centering on one jim jordan, republican congressman, gop attack dog, and of course top of the heap trump towed toady, a man so unfailingly loyal, he's believed to have spoken to the president maybe
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multiple times on january 6th. jim jordan put out a statement signaling his refusal to cooperate with the 1/6 investigation in response to their request for testimony about his conversations with trump on that terrible day. the committee also seeking information about conversations that jordan may have had with the trump legal team, the war room at the willard hotel, and white house staffers in the days and weeks leading up to the insurrection. but jim jordan in his response, he said this about the inquiry. quote, your attempt to pry into the deliberative process informing a member about legislative matters before the house is an outrageous abuse of the select committee's authority, end quote. that makes jim jordan the second member of congress to refuse to cooperate with the investigation, the first of course pennsylvanian congressman scott perry who was involved with trying to get the justice
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department to overturn trump's loss. that makes jordan the off-key canary in the coal mine for the investigation's next phase. punchbowl news, our friends, today put the committee's options this way. quote, do they subpoena the republicans and attempt to compel their testimony? what if the gop lawmakers refuse to comply with those subpoenas? would the democrats initiate contempt proceedings? or would the select committee go to court first? committee chair bennie thompson has said the panel is reviewing whether it has the legal authority to do so. it would be an unprecedented step and opens up some sticky legal questions for this and future congresses. all of this comes as we wait for more impending developments from the committee. it could be crucial, specifically related to how it might handle republican leader kevin mccarthy who is also in touch with trump on insurrection
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day, back to punchbowl, asking, is the select committee going to invite mccarthy to testify and what happens if he says no as he inevitably will? what all of this may amount to in part at least is practice maneuvers by the select committee as they get in their sights their ultimate target, the former guy. punchbowl one more time, adding this quote. the two sides are already in court over the select committee's attempts to obtain trump's white house documents from the national archives. if the panel eventually seeks to have trump testify, what happens when he refuses? does trump get a subpoena too and a criminal referral if he doesn't as mark meadows, trump's former chief of staff has faced? those questions and many, many more lie at this critical fork in the road for the january 6th committee and that is where we start today. joining us now, jackie alemany,
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"washington post" correspondent, yamiche alcindor for the pbs news hour, and peter strzok. yamiche, jordan's devotion for trump will be revealing in certain ways, but why do we care a lot about what jim jordan has to say? >> we care a lot about what representative jim jordan has to say because he was one of former president trump's closest allies. he was loyal, he was also a very good friend of mark meadows who we now know was really the key person that anyone who wanted to talk to former president trump on january 6th, that was the person that so many people were texting. so what we really want to know is how much did jim jordan know about sort of the planning of january 6th, how much did he know about the president's thinking, former president trump's thinking on january 6th? was he privy to the idea of how long it took the white house to respond? bennie thompson, of course the chair of this committee, says they're laser focused on 187
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minutes, that's how long they say it took former president trump to do something, to send the national guard, to really respond and speak up about what was happening at the capitol. those 187 minutes, which are really a black box into the white house, jim jordan could be a key figure there. of course because he's close with mark meadows, it also means he is someone that could also talk about what mark meadows was doing at the same time. lastly, he's also as we know a sitting member of congress. one of the key questions has been how do lawmakers factor into this, sort of how were they involved in planning the rally, how were they involved in mobilizing, how quickly do they know this would get violent? jim jordan could be one of the key lawmakers to talk through sort of what was the role of members in congress, some of whom of course were in the chamber, including jim jordan himself when this attack happened. >> jackie, i will reserve commentary on what i would say about the state of any client who had mark meadows and jim jordan planning out their legal theories for how to challenge a constitutionally mandated action
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on the part of the congress. but i will ask you this. beyond the questions of what jordan could actually testify to, the facts that he was involved in, what is -- it seems to me there's another element to this which is what it tells us about the committee and how it plans to handle other stonewalling members. is that sort of how they look at this, that there are two purposes here, one is we got to get these facts from jordan but we're also trying to set up precedents for how we deal with all the other people who will refuse inevitably to cooperate. >> that's exactly right, john. how the committee decides to handle the case of jim jordan and scott perry will essentially serve as a roadmap for the rest of the gop lawmakers that were in touch with the white house, the willard hotel, outside legal operation, and various other components that led up to or occurred on the january 6th insurrection. i spoke with several committee sources, trying to map out and understand some of these legal arguments they're having themselves right now as they
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figure out the best way forward to get recalcitrant sitting lawmakers like jim jordan to comply with the committee and answer those questions. and the subpoena question is what we've seen the committee previously resort to when it comes to recalcitrant witnesses. but that's not the only thing on the table for these discussions this time around. that is because of some of these thornier legal questions and these precedents, political precedents that the committee might want to avoid in the case that democrats lose the majority in november. that includes potentially holding things like lawmakers in suspension or censure. there are other powers of congress that go outside of -- that stay within congress and don't necessarily rely on the judicial process. in that response we saw from jim jordan, he referenced something called the speech and debate clause. but there are also a lot of legal experts who have said that jordan -- that the committee should go ahead and just issue
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subpoenas because jordan's legal argument is moot. so that is something the committee is currently figuring out and that we're watching closely. >> peter, there's a lot of discussion always in that town of yours about kind of the -- well, if republicans take control of congress what would they do to us, they'll be mean to us, they'll use the same weapons if we take them out of the closet. this is a pretty important committee, it seems to me. if the committee is taking seriously its remit, which is to get to the bottom of what happened in and around january 6th, this insurrection, this terrible day for american democracy, historic, do they have any real choice other than to pursue every legal avenue to try to get to the bottom of it? because in addition to the political -- potential political consequences, there are legal precedents here and precedents it seems to me that kind of factor into how the legislative branch keeps the executive branch in check and also keeps
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insurrectionists in check down the line. >> i think that's absolutely right. i mean, look, one of the issues is that congress right now in good faith has in front of them one of the most significant political acts in our nation's history in the form of the january 6th insurrection. they have an obligation, as you said, to use every tool at their disposal and to try to get to the truth, whether or not it will be fought, whether or not work will be ground to a halt before they complete their work. it doesn't mean they should stop trying to get the information. we're talking only about the january 6th committee, so a lot of those questions internally about what they can or can't do with their own members, what's covered by the speech and debate clause, are separate from the parallel ongoing criminal investigation that the department of justice is doing right now. so it is politically expedient for jim jordan to say i'm not going to comply. but if he's faced with a grand jury subpoena issued by the department of justice, that's an
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entirely different set of considerations that he has. and again, refusing to comply with an option. now, he certainly could invoke the fifth amendment and claim that he doesn't want to engage in any sort of statement which might incriminate himself. but there are a number of things going on right now that just because we see the january 6th committee ask for him voluntarily to speak and he declines to do so, that doesn't mean that this debate is over. this doesn't mean at all that jim jordan for all intents and purposes is never going to provide or speak to the truth or what he did on the days leading up to and true january 6th. >> jackie, i want to read to you the committee response to jordan, and then what our friends over at punchbowl in a very good newsletter this morning, what they took from it. i'm curious whether you agree. the quote from the committee is this. mr. jordan has previously said that he would cooperate with the committee's investigation, but it now appears that the trump team has persuaded him to try to hide the facts and circumstances of january 6th. the select committee will respond to this letter in more
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detail in the coming days and will consider appropriate next steps. here is what punchbowl says about that. the select committee response suggests the panel could be heading toward a showdown with trump at some point. note the panel's response says jordan was going to speak to the panel but the trump team intervened to dissuade him from doing so. we've seen, it looked increasingly, and liz cheney was suggesting possible criminal charges against the president in her sights for sure. is it your sense that is the end game here, that the committee is increasingly clear in its mind that all roads in some ways lead to trump? >> well, look, the former president has been interfering with the committee's work at every step of the way. his legal team has been stepping in and trying to advise former allies and those closest to the president not to participate with the committee's investigation and has invited them to claim executive
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privilege, the argument that all of their conversations with the former president about this issue were protected in trump's capacity as the former president. that has not stopped a number of people from voluntarily cooperating. it also didn't stop former chief of staff mark meadows from putting forth and waiving executive privilege himself, with documents, text messages and emails. but in some cases trump's pressure has been effective as we're seeing with jim jordan who previously said he would cooperate with the committee, that he had nothing to hide here. i think it's unclear whether or not the committee is going to ultimately call the former president. you've had members on the committee publicly say they didn't think that they ultimately might need him to come forward and testify himself, because they have so many -- so much information from first person witnesses who have given them new nuggets, providing more insight on the
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president's actions and demeanor on january 6th and leading up to then. so that's, again, you know, a bit a ways away in terms of where the committee is going. i think they're going to continue to focus on building and painting a picture as much as possible around the president before they ultimately resort to calling in the biggest fish of all. >> so peter, for a lot of people, this notion that the committee is homing in eventually on trump, that there's a case to be made here, potentially a criminal case to be made as cheney suggested late last year, to many, it's obvious that trump has broken the law. as someone who has investigated criminal activity over the course of your life, think about the dots we have here. we know about trump's inaction on january 6th. they say they have firsthand testimony that trump was watching on tv as this was
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taking place. we lost peter. i'll ask this question of yamiche. yamiche, what's your sense, think about this now from the standpoint of an investigative reporter, where do you think the dots that we have, what are the connections that you still want to be able to see in order for this committee, if it is trying to demonstrate that donald trump did something immoral, unethical, illegal, what are the dots that need to be connected by this committee? >> it's a great question, and it gets into the heart of what the committee is doing. there's a team looking at the money, who funded this rally, who was involved in getting people the financial aid they needed possibly to assemble? there's also people looking at the arm of the trump campaign, whether there were people in trump's orbit who were talking to these rallygoers. the number one thing is how much
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help, how much collusion, how much coordination was going on between the white house, congress, and these people who ultimately became the insurrectionists who broke into the capitol and tried to stop an election that was free and fair from being certified. so that's really what it is, because right now what we have is former president trump saying of course go down to the capitol, he's saying people should be peaceful. that's the thing that's tough, former president trump has a way of saying things so that when something happens such as thousands of people breaking into the capitol, he can say, i told them to be peaceful. that's the real connection. you have to go back to the 187 minutes. what was the president doing, what was former president trump doing during that time period? lawmakers have said they were trying to reach out to the white house, they were trying to get help there quicker, there was not enough police to ward off and to keep people safe, to keep the building safe. and this was of course an event that ended in people dying.
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and of course in some officers tragically taking their own lives thereafter. we have a connecting of the dots and all the things we haven't seen. we know the president wanted the election to not be certified. but the question is sort of did he have the mechanics and the people around him, did they actually put the mechanics in place so that people had maps of the capitol, so that they had the tools necessary to carry out the violence we saw on january 6th. >> peter, while you've been reconnecting to your feed, we've been trying to connect the dots in the investigation here. two things i want to point out, the fact that we know, there's a headline in "the hill" the other day that said trump told mccarthy that rioters are more upset about the election than you are. we also have a quote from npr where the chair of the january 6th panel that the committee will ask mike pence to appear. in terms of dot connection, if
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donald trump is the ultimate end game here, what can kevin mccarthy's testimony or the effort to get kevin mccarthy's testimony and with a can mike pence and the effort to get mike pence's testimony, how can that help the committee get, so to speak, donald trump if that is the end game? >> well, i think there are two things to think about there. the first is that independent of their testimony, there is a lot of information out there that the committee has access to. whether it is phone records, whether it is records of texts, whether it's the contexts of those texts and emails. there are things and sources of information outside of the testimony that are going to be very valuable to the committee, whether or not an individual chooses to speak with the committee. but when it comes to the individual testimony, the most important thing that you can get as an investigator is talking to somebody about what their state of mind was, what their understanding was, in this case, that donald trump, president trump then, was trying to do. what was his intent? was his intent, did he
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understand it to be undermining the certification of the vote? did he go in and ask for particular things to be done? because when you start looking at violations of the law, separate and distinct from the political process of the january 6th committee, when you look at violations of the law, what somebody understood, what they were trying to achieve is a critical, necessary element of proving most any crime. and so that's the sort of information that vice president pence, that's the sort of information that speaker mccarthy could be invaluable in terms of providing what their understanding was and exactly what then-president trump was trying to achieve. >> we have a minute and a half here to go, i want to do a whip-around and get you three on one last question which relates to merrick garland last week who gave a speech at the justice department that was a rorschach test. people frustrated with garland for not moving fast enough still think he's not moving fast enough. people with faith in him think it was a judicious speech to give and laid out tracks that
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suggest he could be moving with all deliberate speed, as the supreme court said in a different context once upon a time. the "washington post's" e.j. dionne says this was good. jackie, some democrats in congress want to see donald trump brought to account to the fullest extent possible for 1/6. >> i think at this moment in time democrats are not trying to -- at least democrats on the hill, lawmakers who are currently serving, are not in a rush to apply pressure on merrick garland. they're waiting for the committee to collect as much evidence as possible to make as strong of a case as possible and then pass that on to doj. i don't think anyone's trying to get ahead that have here or merrick garland to make as well-informed a decision as possible once the committee's work comes to an end. >> peter, i'll ask you second,
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peter, in your view are you in the frustrated, man, these guys aren't moving fast enough camp, or are you in the wait and see, be patient, i believe in merrick garland camp? >> look, investigations take time. complex investigations take even longer. folks need to understand that when you're looking at something the size of january 6th, it's going to take a while and there will be a lot of things going on that you don't see. now, i think all kinds of investigators and prosecutors are doing everything they can to move these cases forward. i hope that sense of urgency translates all the way up the chain. i think as far as investigations are concerned, as far as i know, you know, that was the speech i expected to hear from the attorney general. i think it was the right message to the department. so i would caution folks, let's wait and see what's coming because these things are going to take some time. >> yamiche, my last question to you, real quick here, obviously the white house will say, the justice department is independent, they pursue their investigation, we have nothing to do with that. but we both know there are
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people in the white house watching the doj very carefully. was there applause? was there hand-wringing? was there something other than one of those two things or even wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of senior white house staffers when they saw what merrick garland did last week, and said? >> based on my conversation with white house officials, they're trying to stress they're independent. but the sense is the president has confidence in the attorney general and that he understands that january 6th was a stain on american democracy and will try his best to pursue the people that should be held accountable, both people at the capitol breaking in but also the people who orchestrated it that weren't at the capitol. >> jackie alemany, peter strzok, thanks for starting us off. yamiche, stick around. coming up, the president goes to georgia to make the case on what the white house is calling ground zero for voting rights and drawing a line between those who are fighting for democracy and those pushing the ex-president's big lie.
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plus top ranked tennis star novak djokovic seeking his record 21st grand slam title next week at the australian open. and also right now maybe the most famous vaccine skeptic in the work. as australia continues to investigate whether to send him him or not. and later in the program, more on what should be a busy week for the committee investigating january 6th. we'll talk with one of its members, jamie raskin. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. please do not go anywhere. please do not go anywhere. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition
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it's now or never when it comes to voting rights with senate majority leader chuck schumer vowing to bring up a vote on the matter by martin luther king day on january 17th. if republicans filibuster that legislation, schumer says he will try to change the rules to rein in the filibuster. the very future of american democracy, some say, is at stake. politico reports, in his remarks in georgia biden is expected to not only echo the themes of his address on january 6th but to expand on his endorsement of a filibuster carve-out to pass voting rights legislation in the senate. joining us, ensay ufad. ensay, do you feel like you're in the belly of the beast, and
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what do you expect to hear from joe biden? >> belly of the beast, behind enemy lines, there are a lot of ways to frame the context of this work. i'm excited to welcome the president of the united states to our great state tomorrow. but we've also been really, really clear in our expectations that we have been asking for a filibuster carve-out or a complete dismantling of the filibuster for at least a year and we've been asking for increased federal protections for voting rights. i remember the speech from philadelphia. i kept the notes. and if it is a repeat of that, then i don't know if that's the best use of the president's time. what we're excited about and what we're looking for is, a, not only a recognition of the crisis moment that we're in and these massive attacks on american democracy, but a plan to pass enhanced federal protections for voting, not now, but right now. >> nse, this is very
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straightforward, you basically said i heard the speech in july, it was a really good speech, i like that speech, they were good words, nice words, but they're not a plan. you want to hear tomorrow not more nice words and more urgent words and more high blown rhetoric. you want to hear a concrete plan for action to get rid of the filibuster and get the voting rights legislation passed, is that what you're saying, anything short that have will be a disappointment to you from the president? >> i'm the only daughter of a pastor and a poet. i absolutely love a beautiful turn of phrase. what i am telling you is what we're witnessing right now is more than just garden variety democrat versus republican bickering. this is an existential threat. this is an attack on our elections infrastructure. and that nothing on the biden/harris agenda is going to move if we cannot secure americans' ability to participate in our elections. today is the first day of the legislative session in georgia.
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and not only did senate bill 202 add 50 additional attacks on voting for georgia's voting rights. they are coming back again today with trying to get rid of dropboxes, et cetera. we're thinking about midterms in terms of just the politics of, you know, getting -- maintaining a governing trifecta. or if we're talking about voting and voting rights as a domestic agenda priority, nothing is more important than protecting the right to vote and securing america's ability to elect our leaders and to self-govern. >> so yamiche, i know you have sympathy for that point of view because we've talked about it many times on television and elsewhere. does the white house understand that the expectations that they are facing for people like nse who are in the belly of the beast, on the front line of the belly of the beast, if i can mix that metaphor, do they understand when they go down there that there's a feeling if
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he just gives another speech, a very good speech like the one in july, but if he just gives a speech and doesn't have a plan, that their allies will be let down? >> my sense in talking to white house officials is they have felt the urgency and are really feeling the urgency of people like nse who really articulated what i think many in the democratic base are asking for, not just words but action. jim clyburn who was instrumental in getting president biden elected, he's been saying for months there needs to be a carve-out for the filibuster, there needs to be a civil rights carve-out so democrats can get voting rights legislation through. president biden has evolved on this issue. at first he was really reluctant to talk about changing the filibuster. he was talking to a talking filibuster but wasn't really talking about a carve-out. my sense is in talking to officials, he will be more forceful in advocating for a carve-out, that congress needs to be given the tools to act. the problem that really joe biden is facing is a problem he
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faces on a number of issues, that is joe manchin, the other joe. he is someone along with senator sinema of arizona who has said they don't want to change the filibuster. when i talk to folks on capitol hill, they say the prospects of the filibuster being changed are minuscule. again, what democrats, especially african american voters in particular who got their right to vote from the 15th amendment which jim clyburn reminded people was not a bipartisan vote, it was a party line vote, that the democrats not be focused on bipartisanship on this moment when african americans and many others are having their rights to vote restricted in dozens of states. 19 states have already passed laws making it harder to vote led by gop lawmakers. president biden has said the right to vote is the most urgent sort of issue of this time. that said, you have democrats who say there is also
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infrastructure talks and so many other things on his agenda. but now it seems in talking to white house officials they understand the urgency. >> here is clyburn, i want to read this, nse, jim co piece ab talk about the belly of the beast, clyburn, third ranking house democrat, took offense to manchin's argument that senate rules changes should be bipartisan. he said, quote, we just don't have enough democrats who are in touch with the history of this country where they stop saying some of this foolishness. i am, as you know, a black person, descendant of people who were given the vote by the 15th amendment. it was not a bipartisan vote. manchin and others need to stop saying that. that gives me great pain, for someone to imply that the 15th amendment to the united states is not legitimate because it did not have bipartisan buy-in. all three of us agree with jim
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clyburn on this, all right? my question for you is based on that, that sense of moral urgency and historical context, you said at the beginning you want to see a plan. what do you suggest that joe biden do about joe manchin and kyrsten sinema other than what jim clyburn did, which is call them out, rightfully so? if it doesn't change their mind, what should the white house do to force their hand in some way to get this filibuster rule changed? >> so we all agree that bipartisanship isn't a virtue in and of itself. it's not more important than protecting our democracy. i haven't given up on the fact that there isn't a single patriot in the republican caucus. so there may be an opportunity there, if there's something that someone wants. if we carve out the filibuster and it's a straight up and down vote, that it is possible that there is one, just one patriot in the entire gop criminal
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caucus. that is a possible path to getting this done. >> yamiche, i ask you this question just to close real quick. do you think that there's -- you know, the thing that has struck me throughout this debate, they dropped the filibuster rule to raise the debt ceiling. it was last month. the debt ceiling was obviously really important to them. joe manchin did that, he voted to raise the debt ceiling. i'm sure it frustrates the white house enormously, i know it does, that they can't just say to joe manchin, you did it here, why can't you do it here? what is the thing that moves manchin and sinema in order to get this done? >> it's a great question. when i talk to white house officials there is no clear answer to that. they're not quite sure what will make senator manchin and senator sinema change their minds. i should point out republicans are in the ear of joe manchin and so many others saying that this is a slippery slope and it could end up breaking the senate, essentially. >> nse and yamiche, let us know
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how it goes in georgia tomorrow, it will be interesting to hear your reaction. thank you both for being on today. this morning supporters of tennis star novak djokovic celebrating in the streets of melbourne, a lovely city down under, after the man, novak, no-vax, won a court battle to stay in the country and play in next week's open despite being unvaccinated against covid-19. whether or not djokovic can play is still an open question. we will talk about that, next. we will talk about that, next. ugh one of my favorite supplements is qunol turmeric.
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i think it's ridiculous that no one will protest. i think it's ridiculous. known cares this much about anything else except for a tennis player. it's so dumb. >> granted it's one of the biggest sports stories on the planet right now. but at its core, what's unfolding between australian authorities and the number one men's tennis player in the world is really about special treatment. another word for it, entitlement. as of this morning, novak djokovic is out of immigration detention and an australian judge has reinstated his visa, at least for now. there's still a chance a top immigration official could revoke it again. but at this moment, no-vax says he'll compete in the australian open this week. in case you had better stuff to do this week than monitor the musings of a vaccine skeptic in
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tennis shorts, here's how we got here. djokovic last week traveled to australia for the open amid a record surge in infections there. australia reasonably expects for arriving travelers to be vaccinated. no-vax is not. but he claimed he deserved to be exempt from that rule because his lawyers say he tested positive for covid last month. another head scratcher. we will address that in a moment. when he arrived, though, the government canceled his visa, put him into a hotel quarantine right until this morning. that may seem like a resolution. but the story is far from over. let's bring in sports genius commentator and columnist will leach, contributor editor of "new york magazine" and msnbc journalist catty kay. will, when i'm confused by sports, i turn to you. can you tidy up the timeline?
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i'm having trouble following this, i'm not that good in terms of linear stuff anyway. where does this thing actually stand right now? >> one of the problems with this is the lawyers claim that he was sick at a certain level but he was around. there were pictures when he claims he was sick when he was doing events with sick children, unmasked. there's all sorts of strange timelines, things that are confusing about when he was positive and when he wasn't. the judge in this case, really what the prime minister is doing is trying to in the midst of this surge in australia, he's trying to make it clear that the rules apply to everyone, we don't care whether you've had this, you don't get an exemption for this. the judge, judge kelly, one of the most amusing things the judge said in this case, he said, listen, i don't know what more djokovic is supposed to other than get the vaccine. i think djokovic, you talk about entitlement, i think that is a part of it. you see him basically not being up front about when he had covid, why he's not getting
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vaccinated, where he stands on this. he's all kind of shady and private about it. you see the immense popularity he has in australia that's become this massive issue. so i think he thinks he can get away with it. if you look at what the judge said on monday, he may be right. >> catty, no one who has ever watched or cared about tennis at all would deny that no-vax is a great player. there were a lot of people who didn't like him before this and now they don't like him even more. he's kind of on the path to aaron-rogers-dom because he seems to have lied. the timeline, as will said, is still unclear, has he really been sick? the day before he tested positive he was at a live streamed public event. the following day he was at a public event not wearing a mask. you have a well-honed bs detector. do you believe that djokovic was
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telling the truth about having covid, irrespective of whether he should be exempt from the rules? >> there's also a french magazine saying they did a photo shoot with him two days after he says he tested positive. djokovic was all over the place when he says he tested positive. that may just be that novak djokovic doesn't feel that he tests positive and needs to quarantine. i'm now in my eighth day of quarantine. most of us who tested positive are quarantining. he may feel that rule doesn't apply to him. but he was certainly out and about. you said it's about entitlement. it's not just djokovic's entitlement here. this is victoria state in australia which wants their star player there because this is a huge tournament. and they also seem to feel that they can bend what may be slightly fuzzy rules in australia that allow somebody in who has just had covid. but there's a distinction here between the state, which wants to make as much money as they can out of this tournament and if that means having djokovic
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there under slightly shifty circumstances, then perhaps they'll bend the rules in order to get them there, and the prime minister, scott morrison, who is up for reelection, surprise surprise this year, who wants to show he can be tough on the country's borders. a lot of other people have enabled djokovic. >> will, in "the new york times," lindsey crouse writes, the conversation is as much about fairness as it is about public health. why should a player get a free pass when other players and the fans that keep them in business have to be vaccinated and abide by travel restrictions? workplaces around the world are filled with no-vaxes, i'll call him, who expect special accommodations in order to come to work. i'll stop there and ask you, this feels to me like the aaron rodgers story all over again. a, there's the question whether he told the truth about certain things, and b, this picture of
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entitlement. those are the combination of potentially lying and this sense of entitlement, those things can be toxic. i ask you, is that kind of playing out again here when it comes to novak, just in the somewhat more genteel world of tennis? >> yeah, i mean, the thing about aaron rodgers, there are players throughout sports, the vaccination rates are high, but generally speaking there are some players not vaccinated. the thing about it is they're up front about it. the thing so infuriaing about rodgers is he got caught. katty is right, he could totally be lying about having covid before just to try to get around the rules. that's the thing, he's probably going to get away with it. i'll put it this way. if you tried to get around a rule and everybody knew it, and you looked out in the street and there were a bunch of people protesting your right to get around the rule, you probably feel pretty entitled. i think that's pretty much
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what's happening here. >> katty, the notion of especially in the last couple of years, athletes who have decided to come out and become -- have bigger voices in politics and social issues, in a lot of cases african american athletes in the united states after the killing of george floyd, the racial justice stuff they got involved in, we all said that was great. now you have novak and aaron rodgers using the platform, the notion of player empowerment, to spread misinformation. it seems like it's the nasty other side of the coin. >> yeah, i mean, look how much good novak djokovic could do in the world's hunt to get people vaccinated and to get us beyond this pandemic, if he used his enormous platform to come out and say, this is for the good of society. you may have some reservations about it, talk to your doctor about it, get the information about it. but in the end you're not doing
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this for yourself, you're doing this for everybody else and to keep everybody else safe as well. that could -- he has millions of followers. i have very little doubt that some of them at least would be swayed by him coming out publicly and saying that. and as you say, part of this is slightly duplicitous because it's being a bit of a hedge with him. we honestly don't know his covid status. we don't really know his vaccination status either. and just a level of honesty is required from somebody who is in this public a position, who is going to say things and do things that are potentially harmful to society. >> great tennis player but as max boot wrote in "the washington post," djokovic is another whiney sports superstar with an exaggerated sense of entitlement. will leach, not a whiney sports journalism superstar. thank you for being here today. catty kay is staying with us. the day of high level diplomacy talks have ended. the u.s. taking steps to prevent the russian invasion of ukraine
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with the world watching russia's 100,000 troops marching right up to the border. that's next. to the border. that's next. well, would you look at that? jerry, you gotta see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks... gets a little old. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! ugh. unbelievable.
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we've offered him two paths forward. one is through diplomacy and dialogue. the other is through deterrents and massive consequences for russia if it renews its aggression against ukraine and we're about to test the proposition of which path president putin wants to take this week. >> that was secretary of state
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antony blinken, vowing massive consequences for russian president vladimir putin if he invaded ukraine again. today's meeting, one of three that u.s. and russian diplomats will be taking part in, in an effort to de-escalate the situation between russia and ukraine. as of today, russia has amassed over 100,000 troops along their shared border. wendy sherman said the united states was, quote, pushing back on security proposals that are simply nonstarters from putin's side. that includes russia's demands that ukraine not be admitted into nato and that the alliance end its security cooperation with ukraine. joining our conversation, the one, the only, the legendary jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense and now an msnbc national security analyst. katty kay, also one and only back with us. there's been a lot of saber rattling, a lot of talk, a lot of speculation and a lot of analysis about where this thing stands and whether we're on kind of an inexorable path to ukraine
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or whether putin is bluffing. what's your take on where we are right now? >> i think we're at the highest level of tension, john, that we have been since the cold war era and that's because russia is a declining power, and i think they fear the fact that the united states has 29 other countries in our alliance in europe, and that alliance is going to meet tomorrow in brussels, that's the nato alliance discussions that will be held and throughout the week, what i think deputy secretary wendy sherman is saying to her russian counterpart is that we're not going to discuss european security without europeans. we're going to do it only with our allies, and no, russia, you can't dictate to other countries who they can be allies with. and yes, we could possibly talk about offensive missiles in ukraine or things like rejoining the intermediate nuclear treaty that russia abandoned but we're not going to talk about slamming the door closed to nato and i think this is a very strong, deliberate, calculated move by
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the united states to put russia back on its heels so i think the united states played this exactly right in their talks in europe. >> katty, you always have a sense of how europe is reacting to circumstances, a little bit clearer because of your background, your history, your connections, your sources than some of us do sitting on the other side of the pond. whether you're there or not, i'm curious what you think europe is thinking as they watch this unfold. >> i agree with jeremy. there's a general consensus. we don't know what vladimir putin is planning to do. we don't know whether an actual invasion of ukraine full scale or part scale is planned but there is a consensus in europe as there is here that this is very serious. europe has a more complicated relationship with russia. it's right on its border. it's right there next door to it. it also gets a lot of energy supplies from russia and energy prices in europe, 300% over last year, so it can't afford totally to alienate russia, at least not its energy supply but there is a realization that vladimir putin is playing a really tough game
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here, and he has managed in some senses to score a win just by virtue of the fact that he's already had two meetings with joe biden himself and he's had this raft of security meetings this week, first with the americans, then with nato, then with the european union. that's a win for vladimir putin. vladimir putin doesn't have very many cards to play, but he's playing them well, as he has done in the past, and he's getting the west to come to the table. that makes him a player, part of the global conversation, which, by some metrics, he shouldn't really be. russia shouldn't really be. as jeremy says, it's a declining power. and that causes concern too. >> so, jeremy, i mean, you got the russian deputy foreign minister saying there's no reason to fear some kind of escalatory scenario. you've got 100,000 troops on the border. you've got the history of georgia and moldova and ukraine back in 2018 and so it seems like there's lots of reasons to fear an escalatory scenario.
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what's the way out here? what are the concessions that you can imagine if you play out the diplomatic end game? what are the concessions that russia could give, and what are the concessions the united states could give to make sure this thing doesn't escalate into a very ugly place? >> well, first, i think the way russia could de-escalate is to remove their troops from the border, take the gun away that's pointed at the head of ukraine. and i think that's the -- that's vladimir putin's way out. he doesn't need to invade ukraine to guarantee his own security and in fact, it's going to undermine his security if he takes a step over the border. i think for the united states, in terms of concessions, look, i think the united states said that they're willing to discuss things like rejoining the inf treaty, which russia abandoned, and obviously, offensive missiles elsewhere in europe, but no, we're not going to talk about exercises close to the border of russia. no, we're not going to talk about troop deployments. no, we're not going to talk about slamming the door on nato, so there's certain things we're
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just not going to do and russia, if they want a secure way out, they're going to have to back down here. >> jeremy, one-word answer. what's the percentage likelihood that russia ends up invading ukraine? >> 50%. i think it's very serious, at least 50%. >> that's a big number. jeremy bash and a big and worrying number, and when you think that, it gives me the chills. jeremy bash, katty kay, thank you for spending this time with us. the next hour of "deadline white house" starting right after this quick break. our of "deadline whe house" starting right after this quick break. ugh as a dj, i kno l about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪
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if you've got no more information submitted to this committee right now, how much of the story do you think you have?
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>> i think a significant part. i think, where we're at right now, we know a lot of the narrative, and as i've said, i think the most important thing is not even the day of january 6th, it's what led to it. we have a lot of what's out there in the public venue, what the president himself said, so i think if everything shut down today, we'd be able to put out a powerful and substantive narrative. we still have more information, obviously, we want to get. >> aloha and namaste again, everybody. i'm john heilemann. the january 6th committee is moving with deliberate speed and purpose as it investigates the assault on our democracy that took place more than a year ago. detailing what they were doing on the 6th and leading up to it and examining whether crimes were committed, including potentially by the former president of the united states, all of it even more critical as we enter this midterm election
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year. even senate minority leader mitch mcconnell often doesn't pay attention to things like this. he's paying attention. and as you just heard from republican committee member adam kinzinger, while substantive and powerful narrative has already been gathered, the work is far from over. just yesterday, a speed bump in the committee's efforts, republican congressman jim jordan, who has admitted that he spoke with trump, possibly even more than once on the day of the insurrection, he said he would not voluntarily cooperate with the committee, leaving an open question now whether the panel will subpoena a sitting member of congress. there's also the committee's interest in former vice president mike pence, whose team we know has been particularly cooperative with the 1/6 committee. we learned late on friday that the committee plans to ask pence to appear voluntarily this month. all of this pointing to an investigation that is not slowing down but rather ramping up. committee member congressman
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jamie raskin told cbs news that primetime hearings are possible in february and the hope is to wrap up the committee's work by this summer. as important as exposing the details of january 6th are, the committee recognizes that its work is key in protecting the future of american democracy and preventing another day like january 6th from ever happening again. president biden spoke to the existential questions before us in his speech last week, marking the anniversary of the insurrection. >> this isn't about beingbogged down in the past. this is about making sure the past isn't buried. that's the only way forward. that's what great nations do. they don't bury the truth. they face up to it. so, at this moment, we must decide, what kind of nation are we going to be? are we going to be a nation that accepts political violence as a norm? are we going to be a nation where we allow partisan election officials to overturn the
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legally expressed will of the people? are we going to be a nation that lives not by the light of the truth but in the shadow of lies? we cannot allow ourselves to be that kind of nation. the way forward is to recognize the truth and to live by it. >> recognizing the truth and living by it, that is where we begin this hour with congressman jamie raskin of maryland, a member of the house select committee on january 6th as well as the judiciary committee, author of a new book, "unthinkable: trauma, truth and the trials of american democracy." congressman, i know you were on here last week with nicole, but i said, you know, nicole did a great job but i got more to ask jamie raskin. so thank you for coming in again today. >> thank you for having me, john. i'm delighted to be here. >> it's always a pleasure and it says something about a guest who can be on this program two weeks running. got to be a pretty good guest for that, so don't blow it.
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my first question for you is about jim jordan. what happens now? when you've got this kind of rebuke from jordan? he initially said, i've got nothing to hide, nothing to keep from this committee, and now he's saying, i won't cooperate. what happens next? >> well, to answer jim jordan, i would quote jim jordan from the views that he expressed in the final benghazi report where he said that all of the truth must come out. everybody needs to testify, and nobody's got the right to hide anything from congress. so, i think he had it right then. jim jordan, more than anybody else, knows what dogged, aggressive investigation is about, even when he's on a wild goose chase, he demands all the information he wants, and we're not on that. we are on the central investigative mission certainly of this decade, if not this century, to get to the bottom of this terrible political crime that was incited and to a substantial extent organized by donald trump. >> lot of time is spent discussing the question of kind
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of the unprecedented nature of what it would be like to subpoena a sitting member of congress, one of your colleagues in the house, and people debate it back and forth. many people have the view, why not? i guess the question i have for you is, do you expect to be subpoenaing jim jordan or other sitting members of congress, and if not, what would be the argument against doing it? i understand it's unprecedented, but on a matter of principle, law, and trying to get to the bottom of what happened, why wouldn't you? >> well, our committee hasn't discussed it yet, so i will reserve judgment on the specifics of mr. jordan's case, but i will say this. article i of the constitution gives each house of congress the right to set the rules of its own proceedings. we are also -- have disciplinary power over members, including the power of censure, admonishment, all the way to expulsion from the body and the speech and debate clause says members of congress should not be questioned for their
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legislative work and judgments outside of congress, clearly implying they can be questioned inside of congress and of course that's an habitual occurrence with the ethics committee where we call people all the time so there's nothing remotely extraordinary about the idea that we can call and demand the presence of members. when they've got fact evidence relevant to an investigation that we're doing, the claim that we don't have a legitimate legislative purpose was soundly, thoroughly repudiated by the d.c. circuit. if congress doesn't have a legitimate legislative purpose in researching an attack on congress for the purposes of self-preservation, then there are no legitimate legislative purposes. so we got to put that lie to bed immediately. >> i hear you saying that the committee hasn't yet discussed whether you would subpoena jim jordan if he continues to stonewall, but i want to speak to the principle here. is there -- it sounds to me, if i parse what you just said right, it sounds to me like you're saying that you don't
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have any either political, legal, or principled reason why you wouldn't pursue a witness who was a sitting member of congress to the full extent of the law, and that could include subpoenaing criminal contempt charges against your current colleagues. >> well, i mean, the judgment we have to make is whether they are relevant fact witness and we need their testimony. now, obviously, on any particular investigative move we make, the republicans are going to say, if and when we get back into power, we're just going to do that to you. i heard ted cruz say that. we're going to impeach joe biden, not for a high crime and misdemeanor, but because we're had about the house of representatives impeaching donald trump for inciting a violent insurrection against the union. so that's obviously juvenile if not infantile conduct on the part of politicians, but that probably would be the major political component that we need
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to weigh in this whole process. does this -- just become a game of tit-for-tat, because they refuse to acknowledge the reality of what took place on january 6th and its utter gravity in america's experiment and democratic self-government? >> so, i want to put a graphic up here of all the work you guys have done on this committee so far. what they've accomplished to date. 350 witnesses interviewed, 35,000 plus pages of records received, 250-plus substantive tips received, 2 criminal referrals sent to the doj on mark meadows and steve bannon, and 52 subpoenas sent. adam kinzinger talked about it in that sound that we played. there's also been this news about the fact that mike pence may be headed your way soon. you guys may be calling mike pence in. how full a picture do you feel like you have at this point of what happened on 1/6 and leading up to it and the immediate aftermath? how much more do you feel like you need to be able to make a report that gives us that -- people a real concrete sense of
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what happened? >> well, let me just add one other thing to the little progress report you just gave to us, john. we've also contributed a lot of hope to the country, because a lot of people have been very despondent about the idea that they could get away with attempting a political coup for the first time from the white house in american history, that they could incite and help to organize a violent insurrection against the congress and interrupt the counting of electoral college votes for the first time and get away with it all, and i think we are giving a lot of hope to the country that we have been effective, bipartisan committee that is working day and night to get at the truth. so, how much more do we need? well, i think you can see what's happening. we have overwhelming cooperation from everybody we want to talk to, except for a small coterie right around donald trump so
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we're closing in on that particular target but the good thing about this investigation, unlike the senate impeachment trial is it's not about one guy and it's not about one crime. it's about the whole sequence of events. it's about hundreds, perhaps thousands of crimes that took place against us, and we are giving a report to the country not just about what happened and why, but what do we need to do to fortify democratic institutions, both in the most literal, physical sense, how do we fortify congress so our windows and doors can't be smashed in by fascists in the future, and what do we need to do to fortify the electoral process so as president biden said the democratic will of the people is what is registered and transmitted there you are our institutions. >> i gave a bunch of facts that are empirical and concrete and you went to a subjective thing, which i think is fair, the notion that you've given a lot of people hope. certainly, it's the case that
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when liz cheney, in december, suggested that donald trump might have broken a federal statute, and she cited that federal statute, and suggested, therefore, kind of implicitly but not very implicitly, sort of explicitly, that it was possible that a criminal charge could be brought against the former president. that gave a lot of people hope too. i'm curious if you could talk about that from your point of view, whether you endorse that view that liz cheney was propounding, which is that this is in play, the question of whether the former president broke a federal law and whether or not he might be charged. is that on your mind right now, and how do you, as a very esteemed lawyer, think about the questions of law that are on the table there? >> here's where you'll find me a little bit more conservative than liz cheney. it's just because i think the congressional role here is to assemble all of the facts, including facts of potential crimes that have been committed, and put them out there in our report for all of the world to see, including the u.s.
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department of justice and other prosecutors that may be out there. one of the traditions that donald trump trashed, of course, over his four years in office was the tradition of deference and respect for the independence of the department of justice, and he would, you know, lecture his attorney general, william barr, on who should be prosecuted and who should not be prosecuted and leave his friends alone and so on, and of course, none of us, including liz cheney, has gone anywhere near any of that. i think liz cheney is just making a logical syllogism, and that's fine. i think it's fine for us to set that out there, but the main thing is, we've got to tell the story. we will let law enforcement do their job, and we have no doubt they will do their job, and we're going to play our role in getting all the evidence out there. but it's not just about individual accountability, remember. it's about institutional and collective accountability. it's to make sure that we preserve our democratic institutions, because there are authoritarians and despots and
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bullies all over earth, vladimir putin and orban and duterte, every thug on earth is rooting for donald trump to come back because they think it will be the end of political democracy on earth. they think once america goes down, they will be able to drag it down everywhere, and president biden has talked about that, so yes, it's important that donald trump and other individuals face whatever legal consequences they deserve, but even more important than that is that we fortify american democracy going forward. that's from my perspective. >> so, again, i want to come back to hope, and i want to come back to another thing you said a second ago, you talked about telling a story. everyone in my life is bored of listening to me. i'm like a broken record on this question of the need for this committee, if its goal is to get to the bottom of what happened, it also needs to be able to tell that story in a way that cable coverage mid-afternoon on a thursday is not going to break through and there needs to be some kind of elevated
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efforts, storytelling if this committee is really going to break through with the american people so when i saw you talk to cbs and say that primetime hearings were being considered, i was heartened by that, not in a partisan way but just in a, this story needs to be told way. talk about the challenges there. what kind of -- how beyond even the question of, is the hearing in primetime or the hearings in primetime, what the kind of narrative challenge is if you're going to tell the story and break spt through to people who are not already convinced that this was an insurrection and not already convinced that donald trump is a criminal. there are tens of millions of people out there in the country who don't believe it. what do you have to do to break and is through to them? >> well, let me go back and make a comparison to the senate impeachment trial where we also understood the compelling necessity to tell america a story about what happened with a beginning, a middle, and an end, and i, you know, describe in my book how i said to people, on
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the extraordinary team of impeachment managers, we are telling one story. we're not getting up and making disconnected speeches. we are going from beginning to middle and end, pass the baton to each other but that was a relatively easy task because we were telling the story of donald trump and how he set about to attack and impugn the results of the 2020 election from the beginning and then he tried to get republican legislatures to nullify popular results and replace trump electoral college slates. when that didn't work, they tried to intimidate more than 30 election officials, including secretary of state brad raffensperger, and just get raffensperger to find me 11,781 votes. that didn't work. then they went to attack vice president pence. that inner story of the attempt at the coup will be part of what we tell in far more detail now with far more documentation than we had just several weeks after the attack. back in february of 2021. but it's a larger story, because
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we have to tell the story of the role that social media played and the attempt of whistle-blowers there to stop the involvement or the facilitation of facebook and twitter in helping the extreme right organize these events. we've got to tell this story of domestic violent extremism and how it was coordinated with the inside political coup going all the way to the top levels of the white house. so that involves the oath keepers and the three percenters and the proud boys and the militia men and the first amendment praetorian and all of these groups. how are they mobilized into a mass violent street movement, coordinated with people at the very pinnacle of power in the united states? so, that's an important part of the story, because everybody understands that donald trump used these violent elements, but they used him too. when they gathered back at the unite the right rally in august of 2017 in charlottesville, they were just 500 people.
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then they assemble several thousand strong as the vanguard front line to smash our windows and to begin the attack on our police officers and never forget that 150 of our officers were hit in the face with baseball bats and hockey sticks and fire extinguishers and american flags and confederate battle flags. they started that, and then the larger demonstration, the outer ring became a mob involved in a riot, okay? so we got to look at the dynamics at the street level. so there's a lot more going on, but we have to put that whole thing together in a story, as adam kinzinger says, what led up to january 6th and then the explosion on january 6th and how close we came to losing our democracy on that day. >> congressman, as important as doing this investigation is, the telling of the story is equally important, maybe even more important. i hope all of your colleagues are taking things as seriously as you are in terms of how to break through to the information
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bubbles and pockets in the country that are vast that aren't watching this program right now and don't watch television and get their news from -- get their news from other sources. >> i agree with you and i want to make one other point. there were real heroes along the way. >> of course. >> brad raffensperger was a hero. vice president mike pence refused to buckle under and he did his job and those cops saved our lives. so there were heroes and we want to tell their story too. >> congressman, thank you. if we had more time, i would like to talk to you about the electoral count act and new laws against presidential dereliction of duty. maybe we'll have you back next week, you can become a regular on the panel here. congratulations on your book, which i haven't had a chance to tell you. it's fantastic. everybody's got to read this book, "unthinkable: trauma, truth, and the trials of american democracy." jamie raskin is not just a great lawyer but also a great author. when we return, new reporting by "the washington post" that shows how tightly entwined the hosts of fox news
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were with the trump white house. they were essentially a cable cabinet of advisors. that new reporting is next. plus, the biden administration under pressure by some of its own former medical advisors to shift the way in which they're approaching covid as case loads and hospitalizations soar. we'll ask dr. ashish jha what it will take to reach some sort of new normal. and right now, a group of ex-trump aides is meeting to plot to try to take down the ex-president. one of those former aides will join us when that meeting ends later this hour. "deadline white house" continuing after a quick break. "deadline white house" continuing after a quick break
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brand-new reporting on the work of the january 6th select committee in the last few weeks has pulled the curtain back on the so-called cable cabinet of unofficial advisors as "the washington post" puts it, a small coterie of fox news channel hosts that played a role in practically every major decision made by the trump administration. one senior administration official telling "the post," quote, trump would dial hannity and lou dobbs, whose fox business show was canceled in february, dial them into oval office staff meetings. stephanie grisham, former press secretary to president donald trump, remembers the challenges that came from so many fox news hosts having the direct number to reach trump in the white house residence. there were times the president would come down the next morning and say, well, sean thinks we should do this, or, janeane things we should do that, said grisham, referring to sean
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hannity and jeanine pirro. fox news announced today that jesse waters will be the host of the 7:00 p.m. hour. waters, another favorite of trump's, the former president even issued an endorsement of waters's book earlier this year, one that -- i love this endorsement. it cribbed lines directly from the book's publisher, a classic trump blurb. waters's past is littered with a list, an array, an endless stream of racist, homophobic comments, most recently his call for young conservatives to, quote, ambush dr. anthony fauci, a man who has received plenty of death threats. that led fauci to call for waters to be fired and instead, jesse waters today, promoted to primetime. now, we have coming in with us the following guests, phil
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rucker. also with us, charlie sykes, columnist and editor at large for the bulwark. all three are msnbc contributors. charlie, you have been as fierce and perceptive and scathing a critic of your former friends in the republican party as anybody i know, and you know you're not a big fan of fox news channel, but what does it say to you that jesse watters, a guy who last time we talked about him on the show, we talked about him because he was telling people they should ambush and take a kill shot at tony fauci, that that man's now one of the main faces of fox news in primetime? >> well, it tells you that the arc of fox news is bending toward more clown car, more recklessness, more extremism. anyone who thought you would have a certain sobriety or shift to the middle on the part of fox, look what the line-up is looking like. i mean, look, this symbiotic relationship between the fox hosts and donald trump is not really a surprise. there's been a lot of reporting about all of this, about the
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rise and the dominance of the entertainment wing and donald trump's obsession, but what's really extraordinary is to watch the duplicity, the, you know, the two-faced approach of what people like sean hannity say in private in their text messages and then what they tell their audience. laura ingraham saying one thing in private, another thing in public. so, i think that anyone who doubted what's happened to fox news, i think we're not learning anything particularly new, but it's certainly being documented rather graphically. >> kim, talk to me about jesse watters and what we can expect to hear from him if his brand of commentary that he has been spouting to the great offense to many people, many different persuasions and stripes, for a long time, if he brings that now to primetime, what are we going to hear on fox news in the 7:00 p.m. hour? >> you know, john, i can't even
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imagine. i don't want to repeddle or characterize what he has said in the past. i think you've done a good job of that. but what this says to me is this idea that fox news would try to recalibrate itself, post-trump, to try to return to something that resembles a news network is not going to happen. we have seen really qualified journalists that used to work there all abandoning ship within the last couple of years with chris wallace being the most, you know, glaring example of people who have finally had enough, even though they were trying to bring a modicum of actual newsworthiness and reporting to that organization. it seems that that has all been given up, that the network is banking on appealing to trump supporters. and by doing that, they are going to have every trump acolyte that they can sign to be on that network. i think they should drop the
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second word in its name. >> yeah, i think, phil, that's the -- if you read your paper's piece, it puts a very fine point on this reality that's been kind of evident for a pretty long time, that the fox news channel is not a news channel at all. it's a propaganda network, and i want you to talk about how it worked in those four years. you were covering trump as closely as anyone. your piece in the paper, not your piece, but your paper's piece lays it all out in detail. take us through the way in which, the kind of symbiosis between this cable cabinet at fox news, how it worked with the white house, how it carried its -- not only carried trump's water but how trump carried a lot of its water, in some ways, in the white house. >> yeah, john, it certainly was a symbiotic relationship, and my colleagues ashley parker and josh dawsey have this great piece delving into it and trying to connect some of those dots. what we know from our coverage of the trump white house over those four years is that the former president would watch fox
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news almost every night religiously, sort of addicted to sean hannity's show, to laura ingraham's show, to judge jenine's show on sunday evenings and in turn, those hosts would communicate directly into the camera things that they wanted the president to prioritize. policies they would want him to take up. rhetoric they would want him to use in his speeches, like the state of the union or in the tweets that he would issue on social media. and it worked both ways. trump, in turn, would get on the phone and talk to these hosts and encourage them to peddle certain messages on their shows and to their viewers. trump had this belief that fox was the voice, the id of his movement. fox only has a few million viewers out there in the country, but trump believed they spoke for his maga movement, for his supporters, and so he thought, in order to win over his supporters and maintain their loyalty and allegiance, he had to follow what the fox hosts were telling him to do. >> so, i want to put up a full
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screen here of hannity. we can move away from jesse watters, blessedly, and move on to sean hannity, so much more pleasant a topic. this is the 1/6 committee put out some of these texts. there's a bunch of them here over a bunch of dates at the end of 2020 and into early 2021. here's hannity writing to trump. or writing to people in the white house. december 31, we can't lose the entire white house counsel's office. i do not see january 6th happening the way he is being told, meaning trump. after the 6th, he should announce he will lead the nationwide effort to reform voting integrity, go to florida, watch joe mess up daily. stay engaged. when he speaks, people will listen. january 5th, pence pressure, white house counsel will leave. to meadows and jordan, he writes, guys, we have a clear path to land the plane. he can't mention the election again ever. i did not have a good call with
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him earlier today. ideas? so, you know, there's a bunch of these texts, also from laura ingraham, charlie, and again, it's beyond even asking the question of, like, is this a breach of journalistic ethics? again, they're not acting as journalists. they're acting as conciglieres to the president. the notion of a conservative echo chamber and the notion of a supposed liberal media, this is a different thing, that ideological symmetry between fox news and the president. this is a kind of co-conspiratorial relationship and it's at the bedrock of so much that's wrong with the way that information works in america these days. >> yeah, no, it became a feedback loop, you know? we've talked about jesse watters and sean hannity. could i just comment? think about the president of the united states listening to judge jenine and lou dobbs. if you think things were crazy, up that that for a moment.
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but the sean hannity texts, again, as i mentioned before, show that he was saying something to donald trump in private very different than what he was telling his audience on the air. but it also underlines something else that, you know, how crazy was the white house in that month leading up to january 6th? through the inauguration? you know, how bizarre was the environment there? even sean hannity knew that it was crazy. that's an indication that even the loyalest of the loyal maga types are looking at this, going, guys, this is nuts. we have to do something about it. but ultimately, they all went along. so, again, apparently, nobody is now any longer pushing back against the orange god king. they're not telling him, don't talk about the election anymore. and they are definitely not willing to tell their audience the truth. >> kim and phil, both real quick, the role of fox news in whatever trump's future is, is what? kim first. >> well, we know that he listens
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to them. yeah. we know that he listens to -- listen. that's not news. remember, even early in the trump administration, when kelleyanne conway would go on fox to tell her boss what she thought he should do. this has been that feedback loop, that echo chamber for a long time. and he still sees it that way. you still see him criticizing what fox is or isn't doing and them responding to him. >> phil, i guess the -- there's -- it's clear that that's -- that the feedback loop still exists, right? but do you think there's anything that can break it? and how much do you think, whatever trump's political future is, hinges on this symbiosis continuing? >> it's enormously important for trump's political future. i think without the fox megaphone, without this symbiosis, he will struggle to communicate directly to his supporters in the way he wants to, and so he needs fox for these next three years as much
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as fox is relying on him to create sort of energy and subjects to talk about on the air. >> to think there was once a time very early in the 2016 cycle when it looked like donald trump and fox news would have been enemies, rather than friends. then suddenly, the streams crossed. phil rucker, charlie sykes and kim atkins stohr, thank you for spending time with us. the white house is facing big questions about whether the time is coming to start learning to live with this virus. a lesson that maybe all of us have to learn. our medical expert weighs in after a quick break. ve to learn. our medical expert weighs in our medical expert weighs in after a quick break.on. the brand i trust is qunol.
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covid hospitalizations, again, soaring to record highs, more than 132,000 patients are hospitalized with covid in the u.s. right now. that is up 83% in the past two weeks, and cases including breakthrough infections continue to break records every single day. the situation is so dire among hospital workers that covid-infected staff in california can now stay on the job as long as they aren't showing symptoms. but six former top health advisors to president biden are saying that his administration must prepare a way forward that doesn't focus on these numbers alone and instead focuses on -- or that continue to focus on what they call a perpetual state of emergency. what they're advocating instead is that we adapt to a new normal of living with covid in perpetuity. here's one of those doctors, dr. ezekiel emanuel, yesterday
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on tv. >> we think that over the course of 2022, we will get to an endemic stage and the plan is -- or the proposal is we need a strategic plan for that. that covers vaccines, getting more people vaccinated. those are the kinds of things we need to put in place over the next three months to be prepared when covid is really just in the air like rsv, another respiratory virus, like influenza, like adenovirus, all the respiratory viruses. it's going to be here. >> that was ezekiel emanuel not just on tv but on "meet the press." joining us now on "deadline white house" is dr. ashish jha, one of my favorite people to talk to about covid. dr. jha, the numbers are really bad and we continue to have the story, which is that many of these cases are not as serious as they used to be in the old days. the thing i'm interested in, though, is the subtle shift that seems to be taking place in both the biden administration, in
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private -- in the private sector, and to some extent the cultural conversation, this notion of covid transitioning from being pandemic to endemic. tell me what you think about that and whether that's valid and justified right now and how we're going to get there if it's right and proper. >> yeah, so, first of all, thanks for having me back. i would say there are two sets of issues going on. right now, like today, we have an emergency. we have an extraordinary number of infections, more hospitalizations than we've seen, hospitals at the breaking point, and so we have got to manage this surge, and so it may seem funny to even talk about long-term living with it, but i think the point here is we, of course, have to manage the emergency. most of the hospital beds are filling up with unvaccinated people or high-risk people who did not get the booster. but while we manage that, while we keep infection numbers low, we do have to begin to talk about what happens when this surge is over, how do we stop going from surge after surge,
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emergency to emergency, and figure out how to live with a virus that's going to be around for the rest of our lives? >> i'm going to read a little bit from -- we played that sound of zeke emanuel. he has a piece out with michael osterholm and dr. celine gounder, all three people were early advisors to the biden administration as they were transitioning. this piece in the journal of the american medical association. here's what it says. covid-19 must now be considered among the risks posed by all respiratory illnesses combined. without a strategic plan for the new normal, with endemic covid-19, many people in the united states will unnecessarily experience morbidity and mortality, health inequities will widen and trillions will be lost from the u.s. economy. this time, the nation must learn and prepare effectively for the future. so, talk about -- i know you just pointed out, obviously, for a lot of people, it's like, wait, we're talking about this now? but it's also the case that a
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lot of places in the country, people are not freaked out about covid. what does the shift look like to you as a tangible thing, in terms of policy and in terms of how we talk about it, how we account for it, what the data is like? just go through the whole thing of what that shift to endemic would mean. >> absolutely. okay, so, let's say we've gotten through the surge, which we will in the next few weeks. what does that new mindset look like? the new mindset says, sure, of course, pay attention to covid. but also pay attention to influenza. also pay attention to rsv. think about the whole bucket of respiratory viruses that affect us, that land people in the hospital, that kill people. second, start putting in systemic things like improving indoor ventilation and filtration. that's probably the biggest thing we could be doing. figure out a strategy for more therapeutics across all of these viruses. figure out a data collection strategy that isn't just about covid but also those other viruses. put in policies like sick leave so that when people are sick, they're not going in and infecting people at work. like there's a whole set of
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things we need to do if we actually did those things, then come summer, come fall and winter, when all of this will resurge, we will have a much, much better chance of managing it as a bucket of infections and not focus on covid and ignore influenza and rsv and other things that also continue to be a problem. >> one more question for you, dr. jha. i woke up this morning and saw, it's often been the case, see a headline and go, oh, man, we're back. things just can't get better, even when you start thinking, maybe it's going to be endemic and we can start to normalize a little bit after this surge gets dealt with, i see this headline, which says, cyprus reportedly discovers a covid variant that combines omicron and delta. what do we make of that? >> yeah, so, what i would say is, we see a lot of headlines like that. most of them pan out to be nothing. i have not seen any -- first of all, that could have been a
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contamination. there are people who are pushing back and saying they don't think it's a contamination. i'm unworried. and guess what? our vaccines work against omicron and they work against delta, and if there is somehow combining of genomes, which i don't think there is, our vaccines will do fine. so, the strategy we have is working. if people got vaccinated and boosted, we really could get this pandemic behind us. that's what i got to keep focusing on. variants will come and go. we cannot predict and prepare for every single -- we cannot predict for every one of them. but we can certainly prepare, and we know what to do at this point to manage this virus. >> dr. ashish jha, man who combines realism with optimism in an unusual and refreshing way, it's always a pleasure to have you on. thanks for doing the show today. when we return, that meeting of extrump aides looking to take down the former president is now over, and one of the people in the room, so to speak, will be our guest. after this quick break. so you are not going to want to miss this. quick break so you are not going to want to miss this.
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with silversneakers, you're free to move. enroll today at no additional cost by visiting getsilversneakers dot com. with the 2022 midterms just about ten months away, the disgraced twice impeached former president has been trying to make his presence felt and is certainly going to make his presence felt more in the coming months in those elections with the goal of giving him a boost heading into a potential presidential run in 2024. but today, a group of former trump staffers got together to try to make sure of one thing and one thing only, that donald trump never holds public office again. those former trump employees,
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including former white house press secretary stephanie grisham, former communications director for about six seconds, anthony scaramucci, and others, they just wrapped up their meeting to take on that imperative, important, and some would say meeting's attendees, friend of the show, miles taylor. co-founder and executive director of the renew america movement. miles, good to see you here. what's the readout can you give us from the meeting? how did it come together? what happened? how opt mus tick are you about it working now? [ no audio ] >> miles, you're on mute, i believe. you have to unmute yourself. there he goes. >> that's fantastic, john. that happens to everyone in their work phone calls. but rarely do you get to do that on cable television. >> hopefully your voice is not muted in the meeting. i want to make sure you were able to be heard. >> there you go. i appreciate it, john. here's the big picture.
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i got to respect the confidentiality of the other folks in the room in that meeting. but i'll tell you this, it was more folks than we anticipated. i believe last week you all had mentioned that there was probably 15 or so former officials getting together. we had more than three dozen former trump administration officials at all levels, senior most levels and mid levels of the administration getting together to talk about this challenge, to talk about the ex-president's corrosive influence on our politics but also to talk about actually doing something about it. not just talking about it, not just signing statements, but getting out there and having what i call an elect toral effect. it was a productive conversation and one i think is going to lead to actions that the former president should be worried about. but john, at the top end you said the operative word and that is the midterms. this isn't just about stopping donald trump from running for president in 2024 which i think a lot of people who previously
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worked for him in his administration are worried about. they're worried about the impact that would have on our democracy, but one of the best paths to stopping him is doing something in 2022. so that's why our organization, the renew america movement, pulled this group together a conversation. we acted as the conveners to get the ex-officials talking about ways to put roadblocks in front of donald trump's political plan. >> well, without violating any confidences and understanding that you want to keep -- you're not going to keep everything that you talked about in the meeting, you can tell me off the record, tell me what the roadblocks could be. let's speak in the abstract. what kind of things? do you want to slow down donald trump the run away train down in the months ahead between now and november, what are the kinds of things you might contemplate that could be effective.
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those are his allies down ballot in races and in state offices around the country. and that's something we're going to take a really serious look at. now our organization has been focused on going after some of those divider candidates. you have to look down ballot. we have to look at secretary of state races. we have to look at state houses around the country. donald trump and his allies are looking to spend in those places. they want to try to pack the state house ands key state posts around the country with people who are going to defend his interests. people are willing to undertake reforms that are authoritarian
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in nature. and people are willing to follow his lead to undermine the democratic process and institutions. that's what we're working against. i think it is really important for former officials to come together, identify some of the crucial race ands try to go way in and have a serious impact to keep extremists out of public office. that's what i hope can be done, john. i'm just one voice of many in that crowd. >> well, it's interesting. many times, just a couple days ago, they say that steve bannon may have a point. one thing he is focused on don't focus on the money and attention. start thinking about the race for doing catcher and people that run county executives, state level. do all that sort of stuff. there is another thing though it seems to me that you can do which relates to something that happened over the weekend when mike rounds, the republican senator from south dakota came out and in what is now a shocking development in the republican party, saiting republican, federal office holder came out and said, yeah, donald trump lost in 2020. and his claims of election fraud are ridiculous.
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trump called him a jerk. rounds is now come out just in the last few minutes and says he's standing by his claims. that the 2020 election was legitimate. how can you make more and what can your group do to make more mike rounds on this issue? give more republicans that kind of backbone to basically say the truth and then not back down when donald trump calls him names. >> well, isn't it breath taking? that was a headline today. a sitting republican senator merely said that the election was legitimate. i'll tell you this, it first started with all we had today it fell. when i tried to do something sum lar a year ago, you know, i said to the folks on the call today, it was basically, a bowl of popcorn and a couple people on the zoom. folks were scared. they were scared to step forward and actually stand out against
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the ex-president. now those numbers are increasing. the best way to do that is show there is strength in numbers. right now there is a tribe of the tribalists who are in the republican party and opposed to donald trump. but the more that people who are on the fence see those ranks grow, the more willing they're going to be to hopping off the fence and joining that movement. so we hope that this will give air cover to more people like mike rounds and not just rhetorically, what we need to do is actually go give real air cover electorally to these individuals to help them in their races and protect them when donald trump tries to support opponents and that will have an effect, john. >> miles say lore, leader of the tribe of the tribeless, i would like to see that on your business card. thank you for spending time with us. >> maybe my tombstone, john. >> yes. don't -- keep that mute button
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thank you for spending time with me. but now, "the beat" starts right now. >> nice to see you, john. thank you. welcome to "the beat." this new week in this new year is kicking off with a bunch of news right now. the calendar is fundamentally an arbitrary way to organize things, right? 2022 not better than prior years in any number of ways. places w

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