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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  January 5, 2022 1:00pm-3:00pm PST

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hi there, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. tomorrow's is the one year anniversary the deadly insurrection at the u.s. capitol means dramatically different things to america's widely polarized population. as we near the anniversary there is a cascade of breaking news to update you on. this afternoon, attorney general merrick garland delivered remarks at the just department regarding the investigation vowing the d.o.j. hasn't taken enough action against those responsible for the insurrection, that there is no higher priority than holding all involved accountable. >> the actions we have taken thus far will not be our last. the justice department remains committed to holding all january
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6th perpetraors at any level accountable under law, whether they were present that day or were otherwise criminally responsible for the assault on our democracy. we will follow the facts wherever they lead. >> garland's speech is likely to be judged against the backdrop of a newly public and newly aggressive phase from the 1/6 select committee, that committee yesterday asking fox news's sean hannity to cooperate in the january 6th inquiry and revealing text messages that he sent to white house chief of staff. they indicate he was aware of and deeply concerned about what trump was planning for january 6th, embracing for a possible mass resignation of top white house lawyers as a result. last night, the first response to the committee from sean hannity's attorney who said
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this, we are evaluating the letter from the committee. we remain very concerned about the constitutional implications, especially as it relates to the first amendment. we will respond as appropriate. we will be waiting and watching for any response, but today we are joined by one member the 1/6 committee who was also the lead impeachment manager in donald trump's second impeachment trial, congressman jamie raskin, who has made january 6th a central focus of his work in congress in part because the attack, deeply personal for everyone present in the u.s. capitol on that day, also for him, collided with the darkest and most shattering event of his life, the loss of his 25-year-old son, tommy, to suicide just days before. tommy was laid to rest on january 5th of last year, one year ago today on what we now know was to be the eve of the insurrection. congressman raskin describes the two events as permanently and inextricably linked in his mind. in his new book, aptly titled
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"unthinkable" on january 6th his daughter tab that and son-in-law hank came with him to the capitol, the family unwilling and unable to leave each other alone in their grief. it was to them that raskin's mind first darted as he learned that rioters breached the capitol and that untold danger lay ahead for all of them. he recounts the scene. all i can consider now is tab that and hank. i am worried sick for them, they are the only children of members in the capitol today. i call my chief of staff. she says they are behind a locked door barricaded with furniture in steny hoyer's office. tell them i love them. guard them with your life, i tell julie. i'm picturing them under steny's desk and about to call tap that to hear her voice. then, boom, pulmo, i hear the sound i will never forget, a
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sound like a battering ram, a sound like a group of people barrelling up against the central door with a huge hard thick object hell bent on entering the house chamber. raskin writes wrenchingly about what he felt as well as what he was unable to feel as he and his colleagues fled for their lives with insurrectionists closing in on them. quote, i feel do you remember yosity, anger, resolve. but there is one thing i do not feel as we travel down, down, down, faster, please hurry, an officer escorts us into the dark complex basement ways of the u.s. capitol. i have felt no fear today at all, for we have lost our tommy raskin, and the very worst thing that could have ever happened to us has already happened. but i'm still in the land of the living. and tommy is with me somehow every step of the way.
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he is occupying my heart and filling my chest with oxygen. he is showing me the way to some kind of safety. my beautiful son is giving me courage as we flee the u.s. capitol building for our lives. my trauma, my wound, has now become my shield of defense, and my path of escape, and all i can think of is my son propelling me forward to fight. wow. if you can write that. joining us now, it is a privilege to speak to congressman daniel raskin of maryland, member of the house select committee on january 6th, as well as the judiciary committee. the author of that new book, unthinkable, trauma, truth, and the trials of american democracy. i finished your book last night and i found it unbearably sad to read. and i have to ask you, how is it for you to be out talking about it now, today? >> well, people have shown a lot
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of love and a lot of affection for our family. and people are saying wonderful things about tommy. and that's great to hear. we continue to be in the fight of our lives for the democracy. and for me, the struggle to keep tommy's memory alive, and his spirit alive, has fused in with, you know, my purpose of defending our democratic institutions. >> i mean, the book makes clear that these weren't, you know, twin towers of trauma, that they really did get, as you just said, fused together. will you talk about that a little bit? >> well, yeah. i mean, tommy was a young man of exceptional moral and political passions. he was -- i hasten to say he was a very funny young man. he was not any kind of a prude or any kind of a sermonizer. he was really funny. he was a poet. he was a playwright.
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he was the life of the party. but he was extremely serious about human rights. and he was a great champion of peace and opponent of war. and he was also a staunch defender of the rights of animals, and animal welfare. he was a vegan, and he didn't like guilt tripping people, but he did like recruiting people to the cause of not eating meat. and you know, he would say in the age of impossible burgers and beyond sausage, there is just no reason for anybody to be spending on the slaughter of animals for their protein anymore. >> we are dabbling with some veganism in our house. it is a challenge. but i think about how much he wanted you to carry on. and i think about that letter. it's impossible to separate out your work in congress right now from the way you and your whole family hold tommy out and up for
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people who didn't get to know him in his life to know him now. you write about that. i wonder if you could talk about what sounded like marching orders that he left for and you the whole family in that note. >> tommy left us a farewell note that said, please forgive me. my illness won today. look after each other, the animals, and the global poor for me. all my love, tommy. and you know, each one of those words was measured carefully, i think. and the most important words to me were, all my love, because he was a young man who gave awful his love to his friends, to his family, and to the world. and ultimately, it was the pain of the world, the suffering of the world, that he could not abide and tolerate with his depression. it was just too much for him. and i think that the period of covid-19, the isolation, the
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demoralization, the separation from friends and so on, was just too much for him as he struggled with his depression. and he had doctors, and he had medication, but he succumbed on that last day of the year. and we think that he probably had resolved to do it by the end of the year, which is why it happened on new year's eve. >> and he had you and the most loving family that you can imagine. but write, and you relive, and you share in the book -- you relive that last week. and your hindsight is very different than the way you experienced it. you look back and see things that you didn't see at the time? >> yeah. well, tommy, as i was saying was ordinarily the funniest and most relaxed and convivial person. and there was a certain kind of formality about him.
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people who didn't know him who see him as acting normally. but that wasn't really normal for him. and we think that he was kind of putting on an act and that he had decided what to do. our friend whitney told us, from having done some research on this, that -- that lots of people who make the decision to commit suicide feel some relief in it in the last few days, and they are able to, in essence play act like everything is okay. i mean, tommy didn't want us implicated in his decision, i think, custom is why he didn't talk to us about it. he didn't want to be talked out of it. and tabitha, said tommy above all was a utilitarian, he wanted the maximum good for the maximum number of people and animals as well. but he must have made the judgment in his mind that the pain that he was under from his
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depression was so overwhelming that it outweighs the pain he knew we would suffer in his absence. and he knew that we would have each other, you know, and we would have our friends, and we would have a wonderful community here in maryland. and so we've shared that pain. you know, the only saving grace is we know that tommy is no longer in pain. but we still miss him desperately and we want to be with him every day. >> i believe it's in an ceo magazine interview when you have almost an epiphany of what the disease felt like. not that you didn't believe what he was battling, but you write about panic claustrophobia inside an mri tube. i think if it is on the outside and it is someone you love and
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you can't permeate it. it is a beautiful moment of understanding. i wonder if you can talk about that. >> one of the things i had a problem with, never having suffered from depression was understanding how you could get to a point where you would think that death would be an answer. you know, i had been really sick once in my life. i had colon cancer more than a decade ago. all i can remember is wanting to live. i did radiation. i did chemotherapy. i did surgery. all i could think about was wanting to live to see my kids grow up, see them get married and have kids and so on. so i could never understand it. then i went in -- this was after we lost tommy, but i went in for an mri for a little thing on my stomach that turned out to be nothing. they did an mri and i was stuck in the machine for 37 minutes
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staring just at the top of the machine. and it ended up being such a terrifying feeling of being trapped that for the first time, i began to think about what tommy must have felt like. and i had been tormented by the question of whether or not mental illness took his life or he took his life in response to the mental illness. and i realized that for somebody going through an experience like that, it's really the same thing. he felt he had no choice. so when he asked us in his farewell note to forgive him, of course we said, we forgive you, dear boy, you know, to the air, we said that. but we felt like it also was him forgiving us for, you know, whatever we might blame ourselves for. >> i spoke to senior white house official about the book and about all that you share and are sharing even in this moment.
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and i -- and they are so protective and private of their relationships with you. but i said, to me, it's service on top of service. it is this extraordinary body of public service in the congress. and then it is touching the third rail that no matter where you are, at this hour in the pandemic, you cannot be untouched by mental health crisis at this point. and it is so many kids. and i wonder what the reaction has been to putting it out there and being willing to have this conversation about the most dear person to you. >> well, you know, if you turn on some the news and you look at the internet, you would think that america is just all about violent polarization and mutual hatreds and so on. and that's not been our family's experience. we have had wonderful messages, thousands and thousands of messages from people all over the country, all over the political spectrum reaching out to us. we have had veterans who have
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battled mental illness, veterans' families who lost people to suicide. we have had other families whose kids are going through depression or who have lost kids reach out to us. i mean, there's a lot of pain out there. 800,000 family lost somebody in covid. we have lost tens and tens of thousands of people recently to gun violence in the country. the mental and emotional health crisis is out of control. the opiod country. so this is a country that's in pain. this is a country that's wounded. and the way to deal with trauma is to speak of trauma, for people to be able to express their truths, and to use the trauma as a bonding mechanism so we can connect with other people's pain and other people's loss, and then move forward. and i think that's what's going to get us out of it. otherwise, we are going to get into cycles was pain and cycles
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of violence and depression. and we don't want that. for me -- my wife sarah makes fun of me because i don't distinguish between public life and private life. that's kinds of what you were touching on for me, too. it's just life it. want life to get better for every american. we can do so much better than we have done over the last few years. all of us can. >> i want to just share with you something that one of your impeachment managers said. they said that your grief and what you had just been through was never an elephant in the room because it had just happened, that you almost had all of these partners in terms of being in that trauma that you are describing because it was so new, and that they coexisted, and they -- like you are saying, they were not -- it was not your private life and you had to leave it when you went to do your public duty. does that sound right?
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>> well, yeah. i mean, i felt tommy with me. sarah was coaching me the whole way through the senate trial. tommy obviously i talked about a lot. i talked about tabitha and hank a lot that day. and ryan, who dropped us off that day. i invoked hannah at the trial. the impeachment managers were absolutely extraordinary, and they were essential to the successes that we did have on that day. so we have hung together. you know, i say at the beginning of my peculiar, this is not a book about donald trump. these is a book about the kinds of people who allowed us to survive donald trump and get through this period. >> i think that's exactly right. i want to ask you more. there is interwoven -- there is an incredible story about, really, both the work on the 1/6 committee and the work on the
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second impeachment, the farthest anyone has to holding donald trump accountable. i want to ask you to stick around and talk about that after the break on the other side. >> great. >> we will ask the congressman about the committee's work, where the investigation goes next, who they are still hoping to talk to as they move into what has been described a new more public phase that could even include primetime hearings. plus, what the white house is doing to ensure the safety of americans not just in washington, d.c. but the threats that are growing all across our country. we will talk about the secretary of homeland security coming up. later in the hour, more from attorney general merrick garland and his pledge to defend democracy and to hold all 1/6 perpetrators accountable and fighting to ensure every vote counts. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.
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congressman jamie raskin was the lead impeachment manager who oversaw the most bipartisan kbreechlt vote in u.s. history. 57 senators voted to convict donald trump for inciting an insurrection. just not the two thirds majority need to bar donald trump from ever seeking public office again. raskin still expressed regret in his book that the outcome didn't go far enough. he write, quote, as i sat in my chair and imagined talking points for a press conference, the post bipartisan impeachment vote in history, seven republicans from every part of the country joined every democrat, robust, bipartisan majorities to impeach and convict in both houses. trump convicted in the court of
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public opinion in the eyes of history. i wassic shaen down by a sense of having let everyone down. i worried i should have pressed for the non-partisan alphabetical seating arrangement i favored. i should have used all of our argument time rather than returning any minutes. we are back with congressman jamie raskin. this sense of having let people down is something that one of your former impeachment managers shared with me. that after presenting all of the evidence, that you had some disbelief that people ostensibly doing their jobe could look at that and not vote to convict. do you still feel that way? >> well, i thought we could end up with a 100-0 verdict. the evidence was so overwhelming it was irrefutable. at the very least, it was totally unrefuted. they didn't even try to lay a glove on the evidence we
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presented, which was so overwhelming of the president's guilt. and i really thought that at a certain point that within the republican caucus they would say now is the time for us to disengage from this madness and we can put this chapter behind us. they didn't do it. not enough of them did. we did have brave republican senators who institute up. of course in the first impeachment only myth romney cast a vote on one count to convict. it was a dramatic improvement over that. it was a crushing disappointment the me right in that moment although i have come to see it the way my colleagues see it, we convicted him in the court of public opinion and in the eyes of history and he will go down in disgrace as the first twice-impeached president and who as a legislative fact bipartisan majorities determined, engaged in
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insidement of violent insurrection. >> i was reminded you faced pressure from democrats and republicans not to let it drag out. that there was a keen interest in getting to president biden's agenda. so there wasn't much of a debate about denies. do you wonder if you had been able to read mark meadows' text messages if that vote might have been different, if you had tipped from seven to ten or more republican senators. >> well, that never would have have happened because that would have taken months and months and months. and there is no way that anybody in the senate was going to allow that to happen. i go into great detail on the witness question. that is one err, interestingly, where i feel no retroactive doubt or self reproach. i think we did absolutely the right thing.
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we got congressman jamie herrera butler's statement in there, stipulated in the report. that was essentially stating what these teches have shown. that was the case where kevin mccarthy called donald trump begging him to do something to intervene. and he said maybe they just care who about the election than you do, kevin. the problem was that there was a significant bloc of republican senators who were not going to vote to convict donald trump under any circumstances with any number of witnesses. and they used the hook of hanging their hats on the idea that donald trump could not be tried because he was a former president at that toint despite a very clear history of trying former officials and despite the fact that the framers were really clear about this. we won that point on the first
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day of the case when the senate voted to reject that argument. at that point they should have put it out of their heads like in a criminal prosecution where someone says the evidence was illegally seized and the judge says no, it wasn't. at that point you forget that and move on to the evidence in the case. they refused to do that. and despite mitch mcconnell making a public statement of donald trump's guilt went on to say, alas, we couldn't convict him because we didn't have jurisdiction. it was a phony argument. it was an exit ramp, as they were saying a safety valve. >> and mitch mcconnell's most recent public statement is he is going to watch very closely the fruits the select committee's work. i wonder if i could turn to you on that briefly. we were on the air when the letter from -- asking for sean hannity to spend quality time with the committee came down. do you have a theory on a line
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of questioning what it was he knew on january 5th about what donald trump was going to do in the next 48 hours that would result in all the white house lawyers leaving. >> well, donald trump clearly had a kind of porous power elite and cadre around him. there were a number of media people would enter and act as strategic advisers, as sean hannity was doing. what is interesting about his text is they indicate he knew what was about to take place in terms of both the attempted coup against joe biden's majority in the electoral college, and also the violent insurrection to shut down the counting of electoral votes. and he intended to interfere and turn things around there. he knew about it. at that point, he's just a fact witness. it's as if you were walking to work and saw a car accident and you were subpoenaed to come to court to talk about it. you couldn't say i am a
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reporter, you can't have me testify because i am protected by the first amendments. everybody has to testify whether your reporter a cop, a doctor, a priest, whatever it is. if you are a fact witness, you can't assert your professional identity as an excuse for not testifying. >> are there other fox house hosts? liz chain read from mark meadows' text messages that were read to the committee. are there other fox anchors that you would like to speak with? >> there may be some other ones. i don't want to jump the gun on that. but what is interesting is the way they were playing a double game. on the one hand they knew that this risked completely destroying whatever legacy donald trump had. they knew that it would be an absolute self-inflicted wound on the republican party. but of course, publicly, they have stuck by donald trump's side, you know, even participating in his whitewash
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of the events, saying that the protesters arrived with hugs and kisses for the police officers, which is presumably how 150 of them ended up with wounds and injuries and traumatic brain injuries and post-traumatic stress syndrome and so on. i mean, it's just ridiculous. they knew what a nightmare january 6th was but they were willing to play along with donald trump's fantaies and his attempt to pull the wool over the american public's eyes. >> you are looking at two areas of the criminal code, one is obstructing an official proceed asking the other is using the lie about the existence of fraud that they all knew was a lie, it would appear, to raise money. is there anything you can share about what the evidence is pointing toward on those two fronts? >> i think all of that will come out in due course.
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i mean that's what the hearings are about. and that's what this, you know, documentary production process is all about. we are going to write a complete report that lays it out as we see it. the important thing for people to understand, i think, nicolle, is the big picture. if i could take a second to do that. >> please. >> what happened on january 6th was -- i'm sorry? >> please do. take your time. >> there was a mass demonstration, a wild demonstration called by donald trump that turned into a riot. okay? that was the outer ring of activity. the middle ring are of activity was the insurrection itself. and that was the proud boys, the oath keepers, the three percenters, the militia groups, first amendment per torrian, a bunch of organized violent extremist groups that were training for battle, that broke our windows and began the assaults on the police officers that the rioters filled in on. but the scariest part of the day
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was really the inner ring of the coup. and there, the whole point was to try to force vice president mike pence to declare completely lawless powers to unilaterally reject and reputiate electoral college votes from arizona, from georgia, and pennsylvania, and a handsful of other states. the point there was to lower joe biden's total in the electoral college of 306 to below 270. at that point, under the 12th amendment to the constitution, the whole contest is kicked into the house of representatives for a so-called contingent election. now, you ask, why would donald trump and his flunkies want to get the election decided in the house of representatives under nancy pelosi and the democratic majority? well, under the 12th amendment, we don't vote in such a contingent election on the basis
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of one member, one vote. we vote on one state, one vote. even had liz chain defected from the republican caucus on this, and i think she would have, they still would have had 26 votes to declare donald trump the president and to call the contest over. at that point, i think trump would have been ready to invoke the insurrection act and declare something like martial law, call in the natural guard and pronounce himself a hero for putting down the violence and the insurrection that he had organized against us. that was the plan. >> how -- >> that's what was really going on. and people have to understand those three levels of activity, the riot, the insurrection, and the coup. >> let me just -- can we talk about the coup part? because it feels like the pieces
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that have become public so far, some through investigative reporting, robert costa and bob woodward refield the eastman memo for the first time which was -- these people put these things in writing and passed them around amongst themselves and shopped them around on capitol hill. in investigating that third ring how important are what donald trump described to d.o.j. as his gop allies. he says, you just declare it corrupt and me and my allies have the rest. how much of this is in your sights as an investigator? >> well, they were integral to it. i think many of them have spoken publicly how they were prepared for a contingent election and ready to go in and win it. the question is how deputily enmeshed were they in the plots for example, to install clark as the attorney general and to
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overthrow the trump appointees who refused to go along with it? how much were they involved in the plot to try to coerce mike pence to step outside of his constitutional role and to declare these extra constitutional powers? so those are the things we are still trying to track down. chairman thompson said we are going to follow the evidence wherever it leads. we are going to look for the facts of who was involved, how they did it and which elements were coordinating with which limits. i am particularly interested in how the coup plotters were coordinating with the insurrectionists. how the outdoor violence and the indoor strategic operation against mike pence were coordinated. >> it is an incredible thing to watch from theous. you guys as a committee never fail to shock us with what you have learned. the book is just so important on both levels. it also exists in multiple rings, if you will,
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"unthinkable: trauma, truth, and the trials of american democracy" is out now. congressman jamie raskin, thank you not just for spending time with us today but for everything you do and everything you have shared. i think it is well beyond any of your current partisan divides. >> and thank you. it has been a great pleasure talking to you today. >> thank you so much. when we come back, a warning from the capitol police chief that after a brutal year for his force, they will be tested again. that's next. mobile app? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board... and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪♪ looking to get back in your type 2 diabetes zone? once-weekly ozempic® can help. ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪ ♪ oh, oh, oh ♪ ozempic® is proven to lower a1c. most people who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it.
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and we will be tested again, senator. i mean -- i don't know who it is going to be or when it's going to be, but we will likely be tested again. what will be different is that we will be paying much more attention to the information that we gather ahead of time. we will be putting together a better plan. we will be getting the help that we need, preplanned, here, on campus, before we need it. not making panicked calls later on. >> we will be tested again. that was the chief of the capitol police, tom manger, telling senators his department is better prepared for the polktd of another attack on the capitol w. the anniversary of the insurrection just one day away the threat of another january 6th sill looms over the capitol police and whole host of agencies responsible for national security. the "washington post" reports this, quote, senior biden
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administration officials have concluded that the government's january 6th preparations were hampered by a lack of high-level information sharing and a failure to anticipate how bad the day to go. lessons they say they are applying today in an effort to prevent another attack. liz sherwood randle president joe biden's homeland security adviser says since the inauguration, quote, we are stronger today than we were a year ago though we can never be complacent about the threats we face from abroad and at home. joining us now, alejandro mayorkas. what is your understanding of whether january 6th could ever happen again? >> nicolle, thank you very much for having me. let me take a step back and say that one year ago tomorrow, it was not just an assault on the structure, on the capitol, but an assault on our democracy. individuals in that building who were working on behalf of the
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american people feared for their lives. law enforcement officers, heroic individuals, some lost their lives as a result of that assault. it's our job in the department of homeland security to work with state and local officials, to work with the american public to make sure that another day like that does not occur. and that's what we do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. >> mr. secretary, a lot of law enforcement officials have tried to explain some of the challenges around countering domestic violence extremism which the fbi and your agency still contends is the greatest threat to the homeland are that unlike a foreign threat we cannot designate them as threats. they make it more difficult to pursue and disentangle from americans' free rights and association. how do you untangle those
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challenges? >> so, the challenge here -- and we are very mindful, i should say at the very outset that we are very mindful of the fact that one of our core principles in this country is the right to free speech. it is not the expression of an ideology, however offensive it is, that is of greatest concern to us, that is our focus. it is rather the connectivity between on ideology, between false information, and violence. it is the violence that we are very focused upon. and what makes the challenge so difficult is the fact that we are not necessarily dealing with organizations that are very structured with a set hierarchy, but rather solo actors, lone individuals, or loose affiliations of people. and what we do is we use publicly available information. we use analyses that others
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provide. and we disseminate that information throughout the country. and we prepare and practice to address any threat that materialializes. but our first goal is to prevent that threat from ever surfacing. >> you have one third of the american public who believe that violence against the government is in some cases necessary. this is senator schumer at a hearing today on the root cause. >> the biggest threat to our capitol, our capitol police, and our democracy is the insidious motives stemming from the big lie propagated by the former president and many of his republican allies across the country. we can and we will continue to make sure the capitol is safe
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from a security standpoint. but without addressing the root causes of the violence on january 6th, the insurrection will not be an aberration. it could well become norm. >> how emboldened do you feel to deal with a root cause that is associated with the other -- sort of the other side of the aisle's political leader? >> words married. the words of leaders matter a lot -- words married. the words of leaders matter a lot. there are three causes that are of concerned to us. there is, as the leader mentioned false information, false narratives. there are ideologies of hate, and there are personal grievances. and we look at those communications and how they are propagated on social media so widely, and we look to see if
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there are indicators where people are taking those elements and connecting them to violent acts. and that is where we are focused. but words do matter. and we need leaders to be responsible to the american public and only speak truth. >> secretary mayorkas, that's a big job, and a big day tomorrow. we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today. thank you so much, sir. presenting their case. the committee investigating the insurrection is considering televising upcoming hearings in primetime. this comes amid a year of disinformation that continues spreading among some americans. could this help? we will have that conversation next. sation next now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.
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testimony about what happened on or before and after that day. the feeling behind the committee's need to present their case is only amplified by a country still skeptical about president joe biden's election victory. in new polling, only 55% of
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americans believe president biden legitimately won the election. that's more than four in ten americans who have doubts about his victory. let's bring in jackie and charlie sykes is here. editor at large of the bull work as well as an msnbc contributor. it is depressing the lies are finding so much success, charlie. what a travesty that only 55% of americans believe chris krebs lifelong republican and bill barr. more than a republican. a trump, loyal trump servant up until his final act. what do we do about that? >> well, first of all, it's more than depressing. think about what the worst case scenario was a year ago. the delegit mization. people will not accept the results of these elections so what do we do about it? i hope that the january 6th
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committee does have the prime time televised hearing because they afford things they need to do. they need to tell the story. show the pictures, connect the dots and hold the ring leaders accountable. and i think all of those things are absolutely necessary. you know, don't give into the frustration. don't be exhausted by it all. keep pushing it. i do think that the images of the testimony of the police officers, the videotapes of the level of violence. what we now know about what the president knew and what he failed to do then of course raising the question what are we going to do about it? are we just going to indict and jail the people who entered the capitol? what about the people who incited them to enter the capitol? so those are the four main things this committee needs t do. >> i think the invitation to
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sean hannity is if not intended to deal with some of this, could have the affect of maybe eating away at some of this. jackie, what's so remarkable about everyone that the committee has already talked to, i've been admonished by committee members. we focus on the two that didn't talk. there are a whole bunch of others who did without incident, drama, court appeals. what we know is they are deep inside the oval office. deep inside the west wing. they were in the room with donald trump during the insurrection and they know that for his part, you know, it's almost like a joke how bad was it? it was so bad that sean hannity on the 5th said if he goes through with it, the entire white house counsel's office will leave. what is the sense of the power of the closeness to donald trump in terms of these witnesses? >> yeah, nicolle. i think that the committee
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realizes that in order to successfully make a criminal referral to the department of justice to prosecute potentially former president trump, they need to flesh out a lot of the details of what exactly happened inside the oval office and strengthen that case as much possible with as many eyewitnesses who have firsthand accounts of the president's actions that day. they need to make sure they know and have solid evidence showing that the president's action or inaction amounts to what they've been calling a dereliction of duty and that's going to be largely dependent on getting the opinions, sorry, the testimony and depositions and interviews with people like sean hannity. especially now that mark meadows might be out of the picture because remember, the doj does ultimately decide to take up the criminal prosecution, that will preclude meadows from actually handing over the, more of the information and providing an
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interview that the committee is seeking. the committee is saying they have a lot of this firsthand information, but in interviews with lawmakers, including bennie thompson, that is information they're seeking to flesh out. but the information that goes beyond president trump, and that is top of mind for the panel members is also the bigger picture here. as you mentioned, charlie, it's not just about punishing the powerless but getting to the root of why the powerless ultimately acted on these ideas being spoon fed to them. why these americans were exploited. that was a question a committee staffer posed to me a few weeks ago, and understanding that exploitation. what allows people to continue to eat up these lies and go so far as to actually breach capitol security. yes, january 6th in and of itself was a monumental day.
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the largest assault on the capitol since the british army destroyed the building in the war of 1812, but it's also a, i think, an important data point in sort of the democratic backsliding that we're seeing that the committee is seeking to prevent. >> all of it happening in one political party. the republicans. jackie, charlie, thank you so much for spending time with us ahead of tomorrow. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a short break. don't go anywhere. arts after a t break. don't go anywhere. more energy ! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. are you taking a statin drug to reduce cholesterol? one gram of sugar, it can also deplete your coq10 levels. i recommend considering qunol coq10 along with your statin medication. the brand i trust is qunol. they say durable is the new black. okay, no one says that. but, it's true.
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the justice department remains committed to holding all january 6th perpetrators at any level accountable under law. whether they were present that day or were otherwise criminally responsible for the assault on our democracy. we will follow the facts wherever they lead. >> hi, again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york on the eve of the one-year anniversary of january 6th, merrick garland making clear there that the justice department's mission to follow the facts in its investigation into the insurrection. notable, upholding all perpetrators accountable. for months, criticism has been mounting over the justice department's seeming reluctance to go after those who spread the big lie. mainly the ex-president and his
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inner ring as congressman raskin describes it. we saw military generals to quote, show more urgency. a harvard law professor wrote an op-ed where they said garland cannot prevent future violence without a robust investigation. even one of the judges points out the need to hold in account those responsible. a judge described -- as a quote, pawn. who was being punished even as those who quote created a conditions for the insurrection in no meaningful sense of the word, have been held to account. for his part in the speech today, ag garland addressed those who want to see more action. >> because january 6th was an unprecedented attack on the seat of our democracy, we understand there was broad, public interest in our investigation. we understand that there are
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questions about how long the investigation will take and about what exactly we are doing. our answer is and will continue to be the same answer you would give with respect to any ongoing investigation. as long as it takes and whatever it takes for justice to be done consistent with the facts and the law. i understand this may not be the answer some are looking for. anything else jeopardizes the viability of our investigations and civil liberties of our citizens. >> joyce vance offered this analysis of what those comments mean saying quote, this is prosecutor speak for game on. the actions underway at the department of justice taking
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place as the investigation is moving ahead swiftly. a committee has already indicated it may refer some individuals for criminal prosecution. during the committee's vote to hold mark meadows in contempt, liz cheney signalled a focus for possible charges of his boss, the ex-president. >> these non-privileged texts are further evidence of president trump's supreme dereliction of duty during those 187 minutes. and mr. meadows' testimony will bear on another key question before this committee. did donald trump, through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede congress' official proceedings to count electoral votes? >> as we wait to see just where the doj's investigation leads, its probe of the rioters themselves has advanced. more than 725 individuals have been charged so far with various crimes according to reporting in
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"the new york times," quote, the government estimates that as many as 2,500 people who took part in the events of january 6th could be charged with federal crimes. that includes more than 1,000 incidents that could be assault. whether the doj holds them into account is where we start this hour. matt miller is here. he served as chief spokesperson for the justice department. now an msnbc contributor. also with us today, former rnc chairman, michael steel and politico national correspondent, betsy swan is here. matt, your take. >> look, i thought it was a good speech. an important speech in many ways, especially the parts where he called on all americans to join the justice department in trying to protect democracy. i thought in a way, i'm going to disagree with my friend joyce a little bit. i don't think this was a game on speech by garland as much as a get off my back speech.
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he's heard the criticism from judges about the department not doing to hold more of the ring leaders or inciters to account and the criticism for judges for maybe not in some cases, the department not pursuing more serious charges against the rioters and he's heard the criticism from capitol hill and probably those of us who talk on tv from time to time. this was his way of saying look, i've got this. i would say though, i don't think we should read too much into this line that's getting a lot of attention. because that's what attorneys general always say. i believe it's true. i believe if they do find evidence that donald trump committed a crime and they believe they can you know, make those charges stick in court, they will bring charges against the former president, but i don't think we know anything more about that investigation today than we did before the speech and as he said, it's not appropriate. he's not supposed to talk about the charges that the department might or might not bring in the future. he's not supposed to talk about
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the investigations they're conducting in any detail. so this was more him i think pushing back against the criticism and saying give me time and give me space to do my job than any kind of real signal about what the department may or may not do in the future. >> all right, let me push this through the raskin frame. the congressman detailed three rings. the rioters themselves. 700 of them have been charged. then there's the next layer. the extremists. they're also under investigation. they've been charged with most serious crimes. conspiracy. the third ring is the coup plot. it was on paper. it was presented to donald trump in the oval. it involved the crime of overthrowing the election. is the coup plot under investigation, matt, yes or no? >> this goes to actually if i have a criticism of the speech, it's right here. we don't know what they're investigating, but we have not seen any signs publicly that they are investigating the coup plotters themselves and as we've
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talked about before on this show, i think we'd know if they were calling people to the grand jury. it's hard to think that you could conduct that kind of investigation without it becoming public. so i have this question for the department, which is do they think they have the criminal tools necessary to defend democracy in these instances? it may be they're thinking without an actual nexus to violence, what the president, the former president, and those around him did wasn't actually a crime. it's a threat to the constitution. a betrayal of his oath of office, should have been convicted by the senate, but may not be a federal crime under the criminal code and if so, given that this is probably not the last coup we're going the face and look, it may not be a crime because our criminal code doesn't have a lot of experience dealing with coups, but if the criminal code isn't sufficient for dealing with it, i'd like to hear from the justice department that very fact because as long as there's a democratic congress, they ought to be looking at changes, maybe not to
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address what happened on january 6th, 2021 and the days leading up to it, but the next time donald trump or someone like him is on the ballot. >> well, ding, ding, ding. michael, the coup is not under investigation. we're at the one-year anniversary. i think matt said it in the kindest way possible. but what congressman just described the is the third ring. the plan on paper to overturn the will of the voters. the calls to brad raffensperger. to the michigan state election official. i know we know a lot about what donald trump did. he had a bunch of leakers and attention seekers and on fox news, they were heroes so it was hard to keep the coupy stuff secret, but we know that the coup isn't under investigation. what do you think about that? >> i'd agree with that. i'd accept both ends of his
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analysis with respect to what joyce vance said earlier. i think this speech was a form of get off my back. i got this. also a form of gun shy. you talk about a justice department that's been under a lot of pressure politically over the past few years certainly in the face of not one but two impeachments and all the information that was born out of those efforts and i think that there's a level of cautiousness here that is hard to bear for citizens looking at this saying can you please do something or give me an indication of somebody's going to pay a price here. but that's not how our system works. so i'm willing to give the justice department a little bit more runway. because you're talking about bringing heavy level charges
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against some heavy level individuals. we've never been in this space before to go you know legally after a former president, chief of staff, members of congress, some former, some currently serving. so there are a lot of pieces here that i think the justice department is gun shy maybe strong, but certainly a little bit more hesitant to go after if it were just you know, you or me or some other citizen, if you will, that didn't have title and position and a connection to the government the way some of these potential individuals who are under investigation have. >> i mean, let me just stipulate. the perception of a criminal investigation of the highest member of the other party is a banana republic. that's bad. and what the right has successfully done is made this administration, and i believe
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this justice department, so afraid of anything that approximates that, that it's not clear they're looking at what seem to be clearly criminal acts. the call to raffensperger to find 11,780 votes. meadows is on the call asking him to do all sorts of things. go to signal. who was he talking about signal? all of these people were involved in a corrupt attempt to overthrow an election result. there are all sorts of election laws on the books anned what matt made clear is that none of that conduct is under investigation. >> that we know of. or yet. and so i think as the or yet piece that we have to really kind of you know believe is going to come. the other piece of this and matt can confirm because i'm a corporate guy, not a prosecutor. my perspective on these things from a legal standpoint are a
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little bit different, but there's also the reality of what i can prove. what i take into a court of law that actually will lead to a conviction and then there's also as you just reported in the last hour, nicolle, your jury pool is beyond a little bit tainted. you got 51% of the people who believe that the president was, you know, not legitimately elected. so or legitimately elected. so you're still, there are a lot of legal considerations as well as others that sort of feed into this narrative of investigation that we have not had to confront before and i think it's a new test area not just for the politics, but certainly for the justice department. >> and you know, betsy, i guess my point is it seems to only have taken into consideration the political. judge, federal judge after federal judge after federal judge after federal judge
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appointed by democratic presidents, by republican presidents, have said in almost every sentencing that the person responsible for the criminal acts of whomever they're sentencing is donald trump. and if the federal judges see it and the evidence that's presented before them in those trials, and donald trump did all these things so brazenly, we know about a lot of them. what we know about seems sufficient to at least look into. i guess my question to you, betsy, are they waiting for liz cheney to subpoena all the phone records then they're just going take an evidence dump from her? >> that's a good question. we know garland is allergic to any sort of political pressure, but we also know that just because he and his spokespersons at doj bristle at political pressure doesn't mean they won't do what the folks pressuring them want them to do. the biggest case in point is the indictment of the criminal charges against bannon. in the weeks before, i spoke to
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people in the justice department who told me garland would green light bringing those charges because within the doj workforce in certain quarters, garland is viewed at as much lower case c conservative when it comes to his approach on these very politically controversial cases. he doesn't want the department to be viewed as an arm of the democratic party, but at the same time, going after bannon, even though the facts in law to just about every observer were very much cut and dry and it seemed like an easy case, even then, garland going after bannon was something viewed as uncharacteristic given his particular deposition. of course, i've seen zero indicators that doj is investigating the people close to trump in relation to their efforts to overturn the election and as you pointed out, these are some of the leakiest people who have ever lived in human history. i think we would know if doj
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were scrutinizing them. one to keep an eye on are the fulton county district attorney's office. there have been signals they're looking at trump's phone call with brad raffensperger where he asked him to commit voter fraud. yes, right now, no signs of doj that they're looking at trump and his inner circle. no signs at this point that's about to change. >> betsy, you have a scoop out, i'll read the headline then tell us about it. capitol police intelligence analysts worried a member of congress was actually encouraging violence in the days leading up to the attack and because there are so many potential suspects, i'll give away who this one was. lee gomer. explain. >> that's right. i obtained an intelligence assessment written by the capitol police intelligence unit and dispersed on january 3rd. the whole focus of this
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intelligence document was gearing up for the certification vote and the document itself raised concerns about white supremacists and people with weapons endangering lawmakers and law enforcement officers at the capitol building on january 6th. in that context, i've got the document here, it said, i'm reading from it. representative ngomer seems to encourage violence as a means to this end. meaning as a means to what he characterized as saving the republic. the document quotes him as saying that the bottom line is the court is saying we're not going to touch this. you have no remedy. basically in effect, the ruling would be that you got to go to the streets and be as violent as antifa and blm. that's a quote that's found in this document i obtained. the context of him talking about the court was that a federal judge had just thrown out a lawsuit that would have gotten
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pence to overturn the results of the election after ngomer lost in court, he went on news max and made these comments that capitol police characterized as seeming to encourage violence. i have to add, he said at the time and his spokesperson reiterated today, his view was not encouraging violence. not every person hearing them is not the most sophisticated news consumer. when you have lawmakers making comments along the line of you've got to go out into the streets and be violent, that's the kind of thing that worries people who work in the intelligence space and it worried people in the police department just three days before this violent attack on the capitol. >> it's unbelievable. back to our other conversation as to whether trump or any of his allies are under investigation as part of this. thank you so much for starting us off this hour. michael sticks around. we have breaking covid news.
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another group could get access to the booster shots this week. the cdc's advisory panel endorsed pfizer's third dose for 12 to 15-year-olds, the first booster shot for people younger than 16. the fda gave it their okay on monday and it now goes to the cdc director for final approval. it also comes one day after the cdc green lit pfizer's booster for younger immunocompromised kids and shortened the booster timeline. recommending a third shot after the first two five months instead of six, after the second shot was administered. when we come back, how dangerously close we came to a full blown constitutional crisis on january 6th and why the threat to future elections is only getting more real by the day. jonathan carl, author of the book, betrayal, will be our guest along with january 6th committee member, pete aguilar. plus, our political panel weighs
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in on the stark divide between democrats and republicans when it comes to how they view the january 6th insurrection. and later, what ted cruz' outrageous talk about impeaching president biden just cause says about him. don't go anywhere. cause says about him. don't go anywhere. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom ♪ ♪ for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ a rich life is about more than just money. that's why at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner so you can build a future for those you love.
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maybe the last five years you even had one. a stress test. a common way for doctors to evaluate how well our hearts work during stress.
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january 6th and everything that led to that day were essentially stress tests for the health of our american democracy and its institutions. just like putting our hearts through the ringer. every what if associated with donald trump's attempt to overturn the election helps identify areas of concern. what if mike pence had followed trump's orders and nullified millions of votes? what if georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger had found the votes donald trump called and asked him to find? chad wolf and the voting machines, judges and the big lie lawsuits, jeff rosen and those massive threats of resignation at doj, each and every one, results of a stress test. something jonathan carl addresses, writing quote, none of these people had the authority to do what trump demanded, but there's no guarantee the orderly transfer of power on january 20th would have happened if they had tried to do what he demanded.
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the system held. democracy prevailed. but there were many steps along the way where we were perilously close to a complete breakdown. a true constitutional crisis. joining us now is jonathan karl and congressman pete aguilar of california is here. a member of the house january 6 select committee. congressman, i start with you. your colleague, congressman raskin, was on at the top of the last hour describing these three rings of your investigation. the rioters themselves who committed a lot of the crimes for which doj is prosecuting. some of the extremist groups, your cross hairs, are under scrutiny by doj, but this third ring, all the folks that john karl's reporting has detailed who were involved in a very, very detailed and specific attempt to overturn the results
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of the 2020 election, do you have any sense that doj is investigating any of those individuals? >> we don't. we believe in accountability. that's the work we're undertaking to preserve and to protect democracy to find out what happened on january 5th and 6th. what led up to those events. now we expect the department of justice to also hold individuals accountable and to uphold everything they needed to do in order to do that. but we're concerned about and we're focused on specifically telling that story, telling the truth, gathering the facts and we're in that stage right now. >> your investigative process, i'm not asking for any specific witnesses, but we know from some of those witnesses lawyers
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outbursts, that your process includes searching for phone records and other meta data. is it your sense that if you were to forward a criminal referral that you would share all that evidence with the justice department? is that how it works? >> it's our expectation we're going to gather the data and put it into a public domain. and if other agencies feel compelled to pick up that information, then that is something they can discuss and work through. but our responsibility is to make this public. to tell this story and to make sure that we are doing what we can legislatively to ensure that we preserve and protect democracy. >> jonathan, your reporting is really skd to none and i wonder as you hear this one-year mark, what you make of what the select committee has done and what is
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so far public facing from the justice department. >> well, i think it's critical to remember as i know you constantly remind us that january 6th was not just about an attack on the capitol. it wasn't just about a riot. it wasn't even predominantly about the storming of the capitol. that was a horrific, terrible event, but the real high crime of january 6 was an effort to go right at the heart of american democracy and overturn a presidential election. it was an attempt to stay in power by the outgoing president by denying the certification of an election that had been completed and certified by all 50 states. so it's kind of when you look at the prosecutions of the people that stormed the building in that outer ring, that's important. those were crimes. terrible crimes. but it's a little bit like going after the drug dealer in the
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park. and not after the king pen that supplied the drugs. the real issue here, the reason why we care so much about that riot. there were riots all over the country in 2020. the reason why what happened on january 6th is so important is because of what it represented. a direct assault on american democracy. my sense is the committee very much guessed this. and that their investigation is focused on that broader effort to overturn an election and not simply on, and simply, i mean, it was horrific, but not solely those that went and stormed and rampaged through the capitol. went through the desks on the senate floor. that was bad. there was something that happened that was actually worse. >> i think you've articulated it better than i have in an hour and a half. the other thing that makes it worse in the high crime is that it's all in bill barr's words,
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i'm going to quote you accurately, bullshit. quote, my attitude it was put up or shut up time. if there was evidence of fraud, i had no motive to suppress it but, my suspicious was that there was nothing there. it was all bs. it's not just that the high crime was this effort to overturn the election. it's that it wasn't true. and you now have just 55% of americans who believe the truth that according to bill barr and lifetime republican chris krebs in the most secure election in america's history, joe biden won. the corrosive effect of the lie and the ultimate high crime is that we have a country so fractured around truth and lies now. >> well, and despite the audit and investigation that was done by the michigan republicans, the senate republicans in michigan and their report showing that the allegations about fraud in michigan were bunk, the investigation done in arizona by
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the people hired by those questioning the election that showed no, there is no evidence of fraud that would have changed the result of the election. the efforts in georgia. the count on election day. the machine recount. the hand recount. i mean, the evidence is nonexistent to what donald trump has alleged and i think the big central challenge to this committee and whether or not they can pull it off is an open question, but as a way to present the facts and to challenge these myths and you know, it's one thing for bill barr to tell me that and for me to write it in a book or magazine article. it's another thing for barr to be in front of the cameras in a congressional hearing, whether it be prime time or whatever it is, but in front of the cameras to the nation to say exactly what he told me. it may have an impact. bar is somebody with credibility
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among the trump base. they actually see him and hear it directly from him in that kind of a context, maybe it has an impact. >> congressman, will you ask barr to spend time before the committee and say this to them? my suspicious all of the way along was that there was nothing there, it was all bs? >> i'm not going to get into specifics on individuals who we have talked to or plan to talk to, but we are concerned about that timeline. from the election day until january 5th and january 6th. so that's the time period at which we are looking at. we are talking to a number of people who were in the former president's orbit around that time talking about the pressure campaign. talking about the aspects within jonathan's article that were mentioned. all of that is fair game and part of the story that we will tell and convey to the american public. so that piece is fair. i do think that the committee is working through what the next schedule of hearings looks like
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and the chair and the vice chair will announce that when the time is right. but we are interested in making sure that we clearly articulate this case to the american public. >> is the sean hannity invitation part of that timeline? notably there are two dates in your letter to him. january 5th, where he seems to know the following 48 hours will be so awful that the entire staff of the white house counsel's office may leave then on the 10th, where he has made clear he's spoken to trump again. how important is he to understanding what those conversations with donald trump and others were about? >> it's important to understand the former president's mindset and what was happening in those 187 minutes that he went dark while the riot was progressing. and so that's an important piece and clearly individuals who may have some thoughts into what was going on in his head and who was communicating to him is
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important. and that's where sean hannity comes into play and not just the two text messages you mentioned in the letter we sent to him. we also talk about a text message where he was concerned about the next 48 hours and that text message went out one year ago from today on january 5th. so he clearly had advanced knowledge while he was conveying to his own viewership that things were fine and that nothing happened and continued to foment the big lie. he clearly new something was afoot and understood more importantly the power that the president had getting up to that stage on january 6th and we saw where that led. >> unbelievable. it's a privilege to get to talk to both of you. thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, how a steady diet of lies and conspiracy theories has created a gaping partisan divide over how americans think of and see january 6th. our panel joins us after a quick break. don't go anywhere. l joins us afk break. don't go anywhere.
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i didn't know what my case was worth. so i called the barnes firm. i was hit by a car and needed help. i called the barnes firm, that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is worth. let our injury attorneys help you get the best result possible. ♪ the barnes firm injury attorneys ♪ ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ as we look ahead to tomorrow and back at the what ifs, the dangerously close calls a year ago that would determine whether our vulnerable democracy would make it or if the big lie would prevail, we're left with the disastrous consequences of those lies a year later. among them, a nation heavily divided over what is at stake. a new poll finds that while the majority of both democrats and
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republicans are worried, they disagree on why that is. only 53% say january 6th was a protest aimed at overturning a legitimate election including 85% of democrats. meanwhile, more than half of republicans think it was this, quote, a protest aimed at preventing a fraudulent election. on the select committee's ves gags into that day, 88% of democrats say it's important for the future of our democracy. 78% of republicans say it's a waste of time. joining our conversation is msnbc political analyst, former republican congressman, david jolly. also kimberly, senior opinion columnist for the boston globe and msnbc contributor. michael steel is still here. kim, what are you thinking about as you look ahead to tomorrow? >> yeah, it's amazing that one year out, you know, watching that in realtime a year ago, i would think that was the floor.
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we saw a lot of division, a lot of falsehoods, but oh my goodness, this attack on the seat of democracy of america would be the floor that would make americans up and make them realize how delicate our democracy is. remember, democracy isn't a state of being. it's an act and it's very fragile and we saw it there. so to be a year out and to still have this so many americans not recognizing exactly what it was is really disappointing. it makes you realize how even more fragile it is. a couple days ago, michael beschloss said that 2022 might be the year that democracy in america fails and that's something that i've been thinking about ever since and if it does fail, we won't be able to get it back so easily. i hope more americans come to realize that. >> you know, david jolly, i,
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when i was coming on to anchor that day, i came on early and stayed on late, but when they asked me to go on, i remember thinking, i don't know what i'm covering yet. i don't know what this is. what is this? a security story? a political story? someone said to me, cover it like a national security story because they are not, the building is not secure. and so i reached out to former cia official, former national security adviser, and a former pentagon official all who had worked for republican presidents, administrations, and they said i think i went on the air around 3:00. they said in that moment that the only people who can stop this are people from inside the movement. this is going to be a counterextremism effort from this day forward. there is nothing you can say to your audience of people that will see it as it is that will make this not happen again. and it is not clear to me that anywhere, anyone has engaged in a counterextremism effort, is
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it? >> there are voices that are pushing back and you're one of those in your reporting and i think garland's department of justice has filed charges over 700 cases, but do we see the volume of voices on both sides of the aisle regardless of partisan allegiances on this? no. i think it is more likely than not that the events of january 6th, 2021, will happen again and to your point, covering it in realtime, we had to recognize that as a national security moment, one of the fundamental pillars of our republic almost broke that day. meaning the peaceful of a certified election or the peaceful certification of an election and that can happen again. because the voices frankly on one side of the political aisle continue to deny the reality that donald trump is dangerous
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to the nation and i think for me, that's my takeaway going into tomorrow. the optimist in me says that america is a resilient experiment. that the republic survived last january 6th and ultimately on january 20th. and so we want to talk about the strength of the republic but the reality is what contributed to the events of last year still exist in our american culture today and it is more likely than not that we will have to face that moment again in the future. >> and the reason, michael steel isn't donald trump j. trump, the reason because the republican party is corrupted. the reason is the permission structure. if donald j. trump on november whatever date it was had lost and refused to say so but mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy said you know, being a sore loser is a stain on america. no matter who wins, they're the winner and no matter who loses, they're the loser and it's a tradition of our country to you
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know, be part of a peaceful transfer of power. 1/6 would not have happened? 55% of americans wouldn't stand alone as the only people who think joe biden was legitimate as america's president? and -- maybe he would, tucker carlson, but the rock is the republican party. >> yeah, you can frame it that way. and the elements within the party that will perpetuate this are well-known and documented and identified. but as i look at tomorrow and move into it, i'm going to move the lens out more because the numbers you put up in the polling says a lot. and i don't think we can just gloss by it or we can just put it at the feet of the republican party because lord knows they have fed that particularly ugly beast. but the question then comes back to us.
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and what does it say? and what does it mean? do you really give a damn about what happened on january 6th, america? take the pundit hat off. take off all the current and former titles. as a citizen asking a former citizen, do you really give a damn? are you scared enough for this thing we call america and this democracy that you care to respond to what you see happening inside a political party. what you see political leadership doing. i was having a conversation with a friend about this and this poll really reflects something important to the question he asked me. he said, how do you reason people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into? that's an important question. because there was no rationale. no philosophy. no fearing. there was no great argument. that compelled us into january
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6th. people didn't have a reason, you know, a reasoned argument for it. it was emotion. it was raw. and it was based on fear and anger and disgust and hate of others. how do we begin to fix that? on january 7th? a year later? how do we begin to fix that tomorrow? i mean, these are the, this is where we are. and as we get ready to go into another political cycle, my fear, nicolle, is that we revert to the old game. this is just another cycle. this is just another election. and you know, the outcome will be what the outcome is and oh, yes, potentially fixed and maybe we'll deal with that, maybe we don't. damn it, we got to care about this otherwise just shut up and accept what happens and don't complain about it because you have a chance at the ballot box this november. one party's already told you what they plan to do. you elect us, we going to get
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more trump, baby. you make kevin mccarthy your speaker, you're going to get more trump. mitch mcconnell, you're going to get more judges you're not crazy about. >> you answer that for me then. how do you reason people out of a position they reasoned themselves into? you're good at this, michael. what's the answer? >> look, i spent time in a monastery. i didn't get that far in the training. it's, it's -- it's complex. there's no doubt about it. it's personal. i think you have to accept people where you find them and some people aren't going to want to move off of their possession and you move on to the next person. we're going to have to do this one citizen at a time. we're going to have to do this one grandma, one grandpa at a time. one cousin, one neighbor at a time. we're going to have to commit ourselves to preserving this democracy very much to you know,
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the idea that hey, this still matters. and i don't know, i don't have all of the answers. i'm just trying to work my way through it like everybody else. but damn it, i'm willing to make the case for it. i'm willing to say as we've heard over the last hour or so, that this isn't the right course. this isn't for us. this isn't who we are. i get your fear. your concern. and i even understand your anger, but we can't let that consume us to the point where we're willing to go back to donald trump? are you kidding me? there ain't that much anger in this world, baby. come on, now. so there must be something else going on and we need to get into that what something else and i don't think we're there yet. i don't think we're there yet. >> kim, you want to take a stab at it? what is it? >> well, i think one element of the something else is something that we have seen repeatedly happen in our country when you look at one thing i was very
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happy to see today was attorney general merrick garland connect very clearly january 6th to the efforts to stop voting access in places and remember, january 6th was an attempt to stop not the acceptance of the whole electoral votes, but those out of pennsylvania, where black and brown and young folks voted for joe biden. michigan, where black and brown and young folks voted for joe biden in detroit. georgia, where black and brown and young folks voted around atlanta. it was a very specific effort we saw and this goes back to the voting suppression we've seen of black folks for many generations. we need to address that head on. >> we'll give david a break to think about how he would solve this. quick break for us. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. an independent organization
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we're back with david kim and michael. i mean, we're sort of talking around, david jolly, is race. the kinds of things they took away in texas were the most secure things. voting you have to show your driver's license, they were used in places where people maybe don't tend to vote republican. how do we have more blunt conversations at this point? and how do we keep it real?
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and how do we do what michael steele is articulating making democracy great again with the same fervor or emotion that donald trump ran his maga campaign with? >> nicole, more americans rather than not chose joe biden over donald trump because they wanted to stop donald trump, not because those voters wanted a bold, progressive agenda, but they wanted to stop donald trump. that's the most important political coalition today in the united states, the coalition that wants to stop donald trump. for those who still support donald trump, what i would say is i know you care deeply about the country, but you've elevated a man who does not and i think the corollary to tomorrow is -- because we saw a man in isolation, donald trump. not there by his own choosing. obama was -- supreme court and the leaders of the house and
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senate were all there. donald trump was not. he's not a man who cares about the republic. he approaches the republic as an asset that he can use or abuse. the coalition must hold in '22 and '24. it is incumbent upon, i hate to say this, democrats because they are the only responsible party in today's democracy to keep that coalition together. >> michael steele, democrats hate advice from people like you and the former republicans, but they're all we've got now. i voted straight party line democratic since 2016 since donald trump has been on the scene. i wonder if you think democrats are sort of sitting more comfortably in that pocket? congressman himes and was here and being aligned with the mission david jolly is talking. where do you think that stands, that coalition? >> i think where that coalition will find its energy, as much as
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we've seen on the light and what animates that energy is donald trump's willingness to fight, right? what they're looking for, that coalition that david refers to, is is this party, the democratic party which is, you know, articulated as, you know, the rational one who can help us through this? where is your fight? where is your fight? where are you ready to push back? where are you ready to test the system, not break the system? but test the system as it's being reconstructed by trump and republicans like mccarthy and marjorie taylor greene, et cetera? if you're not ready to fight, guess what? that army that was there in '20, they're not going to be there in '22 and '24 as david has just noted because they're looking for the leadership that helps them pull through and at the end of the day, there's only so much protesting you can do in the street. you take dr. king out. you take ralph abernathy out,
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you take a lot of those leaders out, where does the movement go? you lose that focus, that direction, that energy that's fused by the leadership that shows you why the fight is worth it. >> david jolly, kim atkins-storr, michael steele, thank you for spending time with us tonight before tomorrow. quick break. we'll be right back. and service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days! cold coming on? zicam is the #1 cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold!
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