tv Morning Joe MSNBC December 24, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PST
good morning and welcome to a special edition of "morning joe," we are on tape this christmas eve morning. we have plenty of great conversations and interviews we hope you enjoy. let's dive right in. there may be a partisan divide of young americans. someone who voted for the opposite candidate than they did. it's much higher for one political party. >> a new poll finds nearly a
quarter of college students say they would not be friends with someone who voted for the presidential candidate than the one they voted for. 71% of democrats in college would not date someone who voted for former president trump. 41% of democrats would not shop at or support a business of someone who voted for the other candidate. 37% of democrats say they would not be friends with someone at the opposite party compares to 5% of republicans. 30% of democrats also said in this poll they would not work for someone who voted differently from them. this is disheartening joe. i hate to see this. do you have an experience in your life in college and we went to school and lived in places where people saw the world different than we did and we worked in a place in congress, we had a lot of friends who saw the world differently than you did. this does seem to be antidotally
and donald trump is an exception here and we are talking about him individually and republicans at large of a trend that's happening with young people. >> i sat down and, friends with john lewis and elijah cummings who married us, maxine waters. but, we build these relationships and a crazy thing happen. we figured out there were things we agreed on and bipartisan
legislation. i worked on long-term care and guaranteed long-term care for federal employees. it became law. that's because we sat down and engaged. willie here you are talking about these idealogical bubbles where people won't date somebody that's within the party and this is really shocking. it really tilted to one side. it's democrats more likely not want to be around republicans than the other way around. >> it's clear republicans are tolerant than democrats. sam stein, i wonder how much of this is about donald trump and one thing for a lot of people in this country to look at republicans, mit romney and john mccain and h.w. bush and go down the list. a decent guy who serves the
country and with donald trump you look at some of the things he's done and everything and i think some democrats say i don't know how he can support that man and be on his side. i think what we are seeing in this polls is a lot about donald trump. >> yeah, i think it's all about donald trump. if you are a young muslim kid on a college campus and you support of people who want to ban you from entering the country, that's a legitimate right. i am not an expert on dating or anything. politics come into who you want to marry or date. >> that's crazy. >> the last thing i am thinking about -- you guys have to share most people who are in
relationships do share general worries. on the other stuffer is crazy. the real elements here are how we consume our daily news. if you look at any studies, if you are a liberal, you are likely to unfollow people who do not share your views. if you are conservative, you are much likely by every study to consume media outlets and created gated communities around us. it's really problematic. >> it's a problem though. i can say with mika and me, i think we still have political differences. >> oh yeah. >> we look at the world differently. >> you are too optimistic. >> she thinks i am too optimistic. >> oh my god. >> in lala land. >> what i am saying is we cover each other's blind spots.
i will go into a show maybe being too little optimistic that america is going to be okay. i will say that maybe the fact that you saw gum on the sidewalk that does not mean the constitution is going to collapse tomorrow. >> one of the things you see with young americans -- they send tend to have a lot of these because they look at the way and climate change that's going to have in their lives and they look at the insurrection of the last four or five years. with donald trump what they're thinking and saying i can't be around someone that thinks like that. what they see is a republican party they see antidemocratic and dangerous for them. they see a party that they think is racist and homophobic and
sexist. it says a lot about these young democrats and how our party proceeds. we have to figure out as a country because it's unrealistic to think that if you are a young democrat, to go to only places of democrats. >> so many of these democrats seeing barack obama for eight years and they were stunned and shocked by donald trump's election and personal experience with my children, they don't have any long-term perspective, they see this as the end of the world. it's happening right now. they don't see the ups and downs of american politics. these are pretty big ups and downs right now. >> dangerous time. >> they don't see 50 years of the -- there is been second
world war, there is horrible things that is happened to this country. anybody that's young and think this is the worst that we have been through, look at 1968. look at ken burns' documentary in vietnam. for people thinking this is the most racist time we have ever been through. hah! we didn't even move towards the promise. >> there is a total lack of perspective, let's be blunt. i grew up and when i had friends who were on the left so many
times they are only friends of mine because they did not think i believe what they only believe what i believe. to think this is all new. i look at the upper west side when george bush was president, you could not go five feet without seeing him dress as hitler on postcards and t-shirts and hats. george w. bush was hitler. if you voted for him which i did twice. i remember telling somebody in an airplane that, she gasped and threw down her drink and asked somebody if she can sit some where else. this is not new.
i always tell people that the best thing is you can leave whatever your bubble is. burst it and go expose yourself. it's harder now because people do live in their own ecosystem. every one of my friends was from a town i never heard of. cleveland tennessee and places through georgia and alabama and mississippi and tennessee. i lived in atlanta for seven years after that. it makes you aware of other points of views and it makes you respect the people who have them and also sorts of help you blow up cartoon version and in my case what the south was. those were my friends. when i went to college i was looking away where i lived. i know that we were talking
about sam's dating life at dartmouth. the lonely forest in new hampshire. i have a different experience but to your point, it was just what i say to people as go challenge yourself a little bit and don't change who you are but expose yourself a little bit. does not mean you disagree with those people but it helps you be sympathetic to them and humanize those people who hold those views. >> i would be honest with you, i had a little bit of problems with my dear close friends and family members, voting for a guy who accused me as murder. mika have not worked through it.
>> i have not. we are continuing to talk and tried to work through it. >> i am starting to find out and sort of this relaxing. before it was like we can't talk politics and now six or nine months later because we keep talking and this is our neighbors, too. i don't know anybody voted for joe biden in our neighborhood or in my family or with old friends. in time people are sort of kind of like -- we both look at each other and say americans love their country. we mercedes agree but we can come back together again. >> it's an issue where we are
more in social media and people can find their own tribes and they don't have to be exposed to people. that's encouraging of what wu heard of your own personal experience. my question is does it last. we are coming up a year of insurrection and we'll have that at the forefront of people's minds. does it last for donald trump to be a public figure. >> we always have these ups and downs. i remember when we got into congress. we all thought the world is coming to an end because of bill clinton and everyday we'll go on the floor. if this bill passes, you know about the 10th or 20th time on the floor. the sun is coming up and you got to stop doing this. >> there is catastraphizing
suggesting that the world will come to an end tomorrow. yes, i believe that donald trump have pushed us to a place we have not been. >> coming up-- our next guest says to be a conservative today, we have to oppose much of what the republican party has come to stand for. columnist david brooks joins our conversation straight ahead. d br conversation straight ahead. ♪♪♪ my name is austin james. as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre 2 system.
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for the world view of the right is a set of resentment animosities, a partisan attachment to donald trump. i wish i could say what trump represents has nothing to do with conservatism. in the trumpian world, disputes are settled with raw, power. trumpians live in a state of perpetual war, they need to continually invent foes -- >> one of the beautiful statements of conservatism is russell kirk.
it's his last edition where he wrote this beautiful introduction where he says conservatism, we don't believe in ideology. we believe the path to hell. we believe in custom. we believe in the constitution. we believe in sort of small conservatism and we look at the world around us and because we are conservative, we have to figure out are we the party that protects those customs. are we the party of progress. we do not get locked into a rigid set of ideologies. that's what marxists do. >> i was a socialist and i came a police reporter in chicago i cover all sorts of bad social
pops. these were all designed and well intentions. they ended up hurting the people. they didn't talk to the people. they just impose plans. holly crap, that was what this guy who i read in college is writing about, the idea that the world is complicated and you should be cautious to think that you can plan it and understand it. he's the founder of conservatism. you should gradually and do it constantly so that humility was so core and i find it so attractive that we are not going to try to impose our will, we don't know everything. we'll be humble about it. the second thing i found it super attractive is about moral formation, you can't create a society in which the people in it don't have to be good. how do you create good people?
the conservative answer is in families and it's in communities and it's the custom that molds us. the kind of people that's worthy of freedom. when i encounter conservatism back then it was about humility and moral formation. how does that lead to donald trump? there are long answers to that. i went back and reread the books i read when i was 22. i loved them. >> all of them are beautiful books. i sit here and i think and i hear liberals, i read liberals on twitter and say conservatism is always what it's today. you knew what you were apart. again, you read these books that drew you to conservatism. and, you understand that again there was the humility and not
the regity of what you are talking about. you don't assume that every social ill can be fixed by a program that they design on capitol hill. you are not at war of every second of everyday. >> one, conservatives never reckon about race. you should not be concerned of race in america. >> buckly was for segregation and he regretted that and he went back on that and -- >> you go back on youtube and go change on buckly, you will see baldwin crushes him. buckly looks like a jerk. he was my mentor and my hero.
i say that with love but he looks like a jerk. they never dealt with it. that was ignorance or whatever. by the time i got there -- it was not dealt with or talked with. the second problem is conservatism. it's based on a basic confidence and faith that we have inherited the greatest country on earth and we want to preserve what's basically trust. a lot of conservatives feel like they're threatened and they're out to get us. >> how do you get from ronald reagan's farewell speech where reagan said when we stop allowing immigrants to come into this country, we stop being the country that we all know and love. >> i think it's fair. you had a sense that we were
immigrants and immigrants made this country and there is enough to share. it's not a zero game here. if you come from india or china or whatever, you are going to make us a better country. if you come in and you are taking it away from us. >> did the incredible rise in the united states since economic inequality since the 1970s also suggest that conservatives did not deal with in terms of policies? they were happy for their share of the pie to get bigger and bigger without addressing. >> i would say this, i thought capitalism worked in the '80s. what reagan did was right. then the final and the big things won't make progressive happy. you have highly educated people going to highly educated schools
and they move to new york and san francisco and d.c. and came to control the media and the big tech sector and all people were left out of this and inherited this hypocrisy and this class that says screw that people. that's a lot of resentment. >> we have more ahead of your conversations with columnist david brooks on whether donald trump has changed conservatism in the united states forever. how far has the far-right changed the gop? we'll try to answer that question next on "morning joe." t question next on "morning joe. subway's eat fresh refresh™ has so many new footlongs. refresh! here's how they line up. we got the new chicken & bacon ranch, new baja steak & jack, and the new baja chicken & bacon, aka “the smokeshow”" save big. order through the app.
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conservatism." >> you have opinion covering the washington for a long time and we have seen a lot of changes over the past 20 or 30 years and a lot of changes in conservatism. what rings true to you of what david said and what were your thoughts? >> i remember the republican party last year renominated president trump and adopted no platform. reagan had a platform. he stood for something. john mccain, and mit romney, they stood for something and bill clinton and barack obama. donald trump's party didn't adopt a platform. i was struck by mark meadows' book. he's saying donald trump is willing to help people run for office. if they have not committed felony or drag trump into the
mud, he'll help them. that's the trump's endorsement. this they loyal to him? it's about trump. none of those things were mentioned in mark's book. have they committed felonies and are they loyal to president trump? that's extraordinary. people that came on january 6th, if you try to figure which counties they keep them. it was not trump's counties. that was the barometer we found. they came from counties where white population has dropped substantially. that was it is one demographic key that you could do to predict or judge where people came from on january 6th. it's this resentment and a cultural world. it's not about ideology or issues. it's about ideas that somebody else is getting ahead. the country is changing underneath me.
>> more importantly the people they think, black and brown people. not dealing with issue of race at the beginning here and modern conservatism does not have this. i think this world looks a lot different. maybe you don't get donald trump because that's for him to pick out when it comes to fearing the others. the conservatism in a way especially democrats look at conservatism now because you are talking about how liberals think and how they think about it is. i talked to people earlier this week about sort of this issue and what they said is that the american dream was alive. the american dream that was presented to people by conservatives was something that was not available for everyone.
there is resentment about that in black and brown communities because they felt like there has not been help there. when you have a republican party that embrace the politics of contempt and politics of trying to fight others at all times, you end up with the country that we have now. it's unclear how conservatism and the republican party change from here. >> i would go beyond black and brown people. i would say women, too. it was 90% white and 90% male. the threat is white men feeling and producing a lot of anger. toll your point of donald trump and no policies in the republican party, you think of kagan's piece in "the washington post," it was precisely that. is trump the person, it's not what he does. that makes it very hard to counter him because you can't recounted him on any policy
grounds. he does not even deliver. it's not that he has to provide anything. >> david, understanding that there are no constance. politics is constantly changing and new england used to be solid republicans and solidly democrats. republicans used to get at least a third of the black votes. do you have any hope for the republican party and if you don't have hope, maybe you project hope onto a direction that they may go. >> i am known as an irrational optimist. >> we must be true conservatism. what i am about to say should make people feel good but should not be taken seriously.
>> as a multi-racial working class party. it has become more of a working class party. gender does not matter and income does not matter. education sure matters. the republican party have become a party for the less educated, the people of college degrees and they see their rises among those people. people with working class roots have certain interests and party could become a party that serves those without college degrees across race. you can see the beginning of that. the problem is, you have a policy for those people. in my view joe biden's say the infrastructure bill, 80% of the jobs in infrastructure bill goes the people with college degrees. they are serving republican voters by and large. so the republicans have to have
an answer, here is the policies we stand for to help those who are not voting for us. >> before we go let's talk about the great irony of donald trump running as a populist that last two or three minutes ad he ran talking about monetary system are rigged against wondering class americans. he ran as a populist and he gave massive tax cuts to the wealthest americans and multi national cooperations. the night he signed the bill, he went down at mar-a-lago and sat at a table with billionaires and said i just made all of you a lot richer. >> yes. what a working class leader would do. >> disassociated from policy and specific ideas and programs that
would benefit or target the people he represents. it's fascinating to watch. i actually thought while covering trump for years that he switch and said i think we should do the exact opposite. >> he had credibility with him. there were times we see more with the base than the other way around. a new york republican may want to do. he talked repeatedly from his life. i am for gay rights and diversity because i am from new york. he pivots when he runs for president and becomes president and tackles hard right. he had credibility with the right to make change but he never did. he felt that was what he needed to do to keep the base behind him.
>> he was always scared of his base when he suggests a couple of months ago that people go out and vaccinate, they start to boo and he backs off. >> yeah, awful. >> we have to bring this incredible conversation into a close. david brooks, thank you very much. your new piece "i remember conservatism" is the special issue of the atlantic, incredible two issue topics. thank you very much for sharing with us that morning. the last best hope for a divided america. our next guest argues the country is not split into two camps but four. our conversation with the atlantic's george packer is straight ahead, we'll be right back. e packer is straight ahead, we'll be right back
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welcome back, we bring you now to our conversation with author and atlantic writer george packer who joins us recently for his latest book. why he says inequality is at the heart of the fracturing of our country. >> joining us now is michael beschloss and george packer is with us. he's the author "the last best hope," america is in crisis and renewal." it's good to have you on board and it's great to be here on the table. you can hear us talking over each other, just like the old days. >> george, i would like to go around and tell people at the end of the day, we are really one america. we are the united states of america. you say no. we are four americas, free america, smart america, just
america. >> obama tried the say we are one america and we got the back of the hand of the other halves. it has been tried and failed. we are certainly two countries. those two countries are split into two's. start with three americas which is reagan's america. it's libertarian america, low taxes, de-regulation and getting business out of the way. it had a run in the '80s and ' 90s. it helps create a lot of inequality. smart america is the america of the autocrats, they believe your talents and efforts will take you as far as they can. that class starts to believe
that we have a chance to become aristocracies. real america is trump's america. the right-wing populist america, the hartland. it was a kind of rebellion against free america. the promises of older version conservatism failed a lot of the country, the top of the republican party from the masses and it's dark and it's xenophobic and does not want immigration. the millennial generation who says you have been lying to us, the country is not progressing. we have to fight for justice
which never comes because this country is born in an original sin. those are the four narratives. they leave out a lot of americans who don't have the voice to shape dominant narratives. and why the past 40 or 50 years? what was the triggering point that caused the division and what you see is splintering? >> i think it began in the '70s and really two things. one is the rise of a multi ethnic, multi cultural democracy that we live in today which has open doors for some and threaten others. the second is the end of the industrial age and the beginning of the economy. i think inequality is at the heart of our fracturing. americans have a passion for equality. they all want to feel as if they're as good as anyone else.
when we end up in rigid classes from which you can't broke out and you will born into it and die into it. a frustration and resentment and a bitter conversation for status and resources. inequality is at the heart of these ills. >> you know, michael, one of my favorite books in the mid-80s, "the reckoning," what he's talking about really started there. i think it really began when you would have general motors and more people working and assembly lines living the good life, living from flint, michigan and you name it across america. more people working for general motors than they are working today for apple, google and facebook and microsoft. you name it. with that hallowing out of the
middle class, a lot of things. >> i think that's exactly right, joe. just what george was talking about and what you guys talk about almost every single morning. we are living in a country that's almost a rebuffed of george washington's dream that's one nation getting more and more reunited. of course it was not one nation when george washington became president with obvious reasons but it was always ideal. now we got a political system that capitalizes on these kinds of divisions. this is the way you get to raise money and the way you become leaders of your party in congress depending on the party. as long as this is going on with social media and the system that we are living in, this is likelihood is to be more pronounced along the lines that george is talking about.
willie. >> i want to dig in a little bit. sarah palin and that you had a great line that she was john the baptist to the coming of trump. talk about a little bit about what she started, governor palin started and what she responded to in this post 9/11 world. >> she said it at a fundraiser which is places where politicians on the campaign trail tells the truth. he said she loves coming to the real america where the hardworking patriotic people grow our food and fight our wars. she was dividing us into the real and fake america which presumably is where we live in new york. but, she was in north carolina in the piedmont area which suffered tobacco textile and
furniture making. the same kind of hallowing out that is joe was talking about. it was a place of many pathology and social ill and multiple generations and it did not look like the real america of sarah palin's imagination. that america had become hostile to elites and experts and institutions and disbelieving of vaccination campaigns, for example. sarah palin gave it an identity. it was not a set of an idea. it was as kind of white identity politics. she was a trailblazer which trump then rose to and brought to a new level and made into a winning political program and so i think palin is a crucial figure even though she became a failed party.
she would not forget she was the turning point of the republican party. a breaking up of business and evangelical christians which we see in our politics everyday. >> you know willie, i talk about "the reckoning," when you talk about sarah palin, you want to talk about a divided america, i think of that "saturday night live" sketch from the new york times and "the washington post," nbc i am sure and the skit, they were all sitting there and talking about being assigned to alaska and they were horrified and curled up in fetal positions and they were asked the most idiotic question where did they get their soy lattes.
between what sarah palin would call real america and elite america. >> yeah, you can ask our friends nicole wallace where the energy of those campaign events were late in 2008, michael beschloss, a lot of those crowds coming out to see sarah palin, she was exciting and talking to them in a language they have not heard before at least out in the public. as george describes, she started something we are reckoning here today. >> absolutely right, willie. i think i agree that nicole would be delighted of reminded of her role of the sarah palin's rise. >> i am waiting for a text from her right now. >> exactly with smoke coming off of her. >> that's what george wallace was talking about in the 1960s when he talked about
intellectuals and peanut butter sandwiches in their briefcases, these people do not live like you. i was living in illinois and we were by no means a family of george wallace. the part of it did ring a little bit true was decisions that affected your life are being made in new york and being made in washington, d.c. we knew to a large extent they were not made in illinois. >> michael beschloss, thump. >> i think george's these is fascinating. joe biden has a theory of the case of how to fix this. the theory of the case is start at home, deal with covid, get the economy growing fast and these terrible problems of inequality and unfairness anger will begin to resolve themselves. i am curious to ask george whether he think that theory,
the case is going to work? >> i agree, david, joe biden does not belong to any of those four americas. he sorts of perceives them which is to his great advantage. he's not locked into the bitter divisions of the four. he's more like a roosevelt or truman democrat. i think equality is at the heart of biden's domestic program. changing our lives and our material conditions for the better. across the board and roots and showing that government can play as positive role in people's lives. that if he has an ideology which he does not. that would be it. to me that's our only chance. at the end of the book, i talk about equal america which is america that everyone feels they have a place that their status is the same. their condition is not exactly. at least we won't be locked into classes from which we can't escape. that's biden's goal, whether he
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leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. good morning, it's christmas eve morning, we hope you had a wonderful day. if you have not finish your holiday shopping yet. the next two hours, we'll give you a lot of book ideas for gifts. first up the investigation of the january 6th attack at the capitol continues. >> scott mcfarland posted this exhibit released by the justice department that appears to show what happens as police tried to protect a closing door at the
u.s. capitol complex on january 6th. you see people throwing chairs and anything they can at police officers and as the door goes up, you see a trump flag. and some other notable revelations from those court proceedings and indiana man charged with carrying a loaded firearm to the capitol on january 6th. he was targeted house speaker nancy pelosi. according to politico, 56-year-old mark maza is the latest of about half a dozen january 6th's defendants charged with bringing a gun to the capitol. maza told investigaors that he and pelosi would hit it off. >> you remember that image. a federal judge said former vice
president al gore had better standing than donald trump to challenge the outcome of the election he lost but was quot "a man" of what happened to him and he accepted it and walked away. what concerns me, sir, is that you are gullible enough to come to washington, d.c. from florida based on a lie and the person who inspired you to do what you do is still making those statements and my concern is that you are gullible enough to do it again. here we have another judge putting a line in the sand, i am not worried about what you did a year ago but i am worried about what other people may do going forward. >> and again and other federal judge who's pointing the finger and pointing the blame at donald trump. let's bring the chief washington correspondent for abc news, jonathan carl, his new book is entitled "betrayal."
it's fascinating we met two judges talking about the betrayal of donald trump against the people who were gullible enough to believe his lives up in their life and come to washington, d.c. and had their entire lives recked by the fact that they committed crimes against the united states government. >> i mean they were doing his bidding. that's crystal clear these proceedings. donald trump's activity did not begin on january 6th. this was sketched out in a methodical build-up to january 6th, using all means necessary, everything out of his disposal trying to stop the transition of power. it was not a protest or a violent protest. it goes far beyond the actual crimes committed at the capitol on that day. the assault police officers to break into the building and
vandalism and all of that. this was much more than that. this was much more than a violent riot. this was an effort to stop the central mechanism of american democracy of the peaceful transition of power. it did not start with the president's speech that morning. >> yes. jonathan, we have of course had robert costa and woodward talking about what happened the night before. on january 6th, though, you take us inside the oval office with the president and talk about even when finally pushed to make statements to these rioters and people that were beating the hell out of police officers with american flags and brutalizing them into inches of them losing their lives, donald trump, you note donald trump was not asking them to stop the violence. >> no, he was not.
keep in mind the one video message he put out that night was after the riot had been underway for hours. he had been begged and kevin mccarthy went public that day to say that he was begging donald trump to come out and give a message to the country and to the rioters to stop and stand down and go home. i went through and i talked to everybody i can get a hold of who was in the white house that day. everybody who saw the president and everybody that i can find who talked to the president that day and he was getting this message from several quarters. you got to get out there. you got to stop this. when he finally agrees to give the video tape message. you know how dreadful that message was. he spends more time praising the riot rioters. he said i love you to the rioters but he does tell them to go home. the thing that blew me away and
looking at what happened in the making of that video is that they bring the cameras in and i talked to somebody who was there for the taping for that message. he does a video message and he forgets to tell them to go home. so they rejected it. he does it again. once again he does not include the only line that really matters, go home. this goes on for several takes until he gives the take that's deemed acceptable which was of course anything that's acceptable because he's praising the rioters. >> because he was flattered by what they were doing on his behalf. >> he was. >> we focus so much and rightly so all the people who enabled january 6th, who went along for the ride and fanned the flames and supported donald trump. those who stood at the door and
and vice president pence was the one on that day who stopped and did not do what the president wanted him to do. who else as we look at history and as we look at someone or people helped to stop the darker moment in america's history. >> there are several surprising figures. nothing in the background many of these people lead you to believe that they would have been the one to stand up to donald trump. bill barr is one of the most controversial figures in the trump's universe. his statement coming out saying there was no fraud was extremely important. more important than that was his steadfast refusal to use the power of the justice department to go out and do things like seize voting machines and force a rerun of the election and force states to send new electoral votes in. he refused that.
you can tell the importance of that because the day after barr steps down, the acting attorney general jeff rosen was summon d into the white house and of course he said no. trump going into the scheme and putting in jeffery clark as an attorney general and he was going to pressure georgia and other states to send new electoral votes. every other senior official makes a pack that they would all resign. that was a major moment. but, also you know raffensperger himself and there were a lot of names that fit this.
one was official, a member of parliament's office. rioters were already in the building and the senator was rushed and wait a minute, we got to grab those boxes, boxes that carried electoral votes. what would have happened if those boxes destroyed? it's not clear because the constitution has clear rules that has to be originals, they have to be signed by the states by a certain date. we should have another element of a constitutional crisis if that relatively junior employee had not said wait a minute, we got to save the boxes, too. >> mike barnicle is with us. what's so important about jonathan karl's reporting is that he takes us back to my new thing that happens during the
insurrection itself talking about the difficulty to get the president to say the words "go home," how terrifying that is as the world was watching our united states capitol building get desecrated and our lawmakers, our leaders and politician lives threatened and trump himself. his participation in this and not just in the days leading up but on that day, begging people to go to the capitol waving his arms and sending him on their way and tricking them and saying he'll be there too. it's kind of hard not to look as who was directly responsible for this very dark day. >> well, that's true. as expected from anything jonathan does, there is nuggets of great reporting in this book. one of the elements he just commented upon was the fore
thought of taking the electoral ballots out of the senate. it's a reminder of how close we came that day to losing our democracy. jonathan, i know that you have known donald trump well prior to his presidency. you sat down with him for this book mar-a-lago: post presidency. my question to you, an editorial opinion. when you sit with donald trump at mar-a-lago, did i occur to you, my god this man was actually president of the united states? >> you know variations of that occurred to me not just in that interview but many days before. it was striking to me that my first book on trump, i recounted my very first interview with him
which was in 1994 in trump tower when he was just a kind of you know the big self-strive and real estate mogul and how little the guy has changed and all that transpired. he had been president and not only he had won the most offset elections in history. he brought us to the type of crisis we have seen and i am still trying to get my head around all of that. i think we are all. >> you mentioned somebody who stood up by the president. what that did was lead a hall out of the west wing.
your book had reporting of some of the ideas were batted about inside the oval office by those theorists to justify trump keeping power. can you explain to viewers what just happened? >> these are the kinds of stuff you would read if you go to the dark web of qanon land. it was discussed right there at the top level of our government. this was a phone call that was made from sidney powell to one of the top officials that trump put into the pentagon, the under secretary of defense for intelligence and security, the civilian official in the line of authority over special operation troops. somehow sidney powell had gotten this guy's direct line, unpublished line in the
pentagon. this is a number that only the west wing would have or fellow officials at the pentagon. by the way, the people i spoke to were convinced it was mark meadows who gave out that phone number. who knows? but, she calls and she wants him to dispatch a special operation team to germany and capture the cia director gina haskell who was there trying to seize destroy evidence of a server form that was used to switch all the votes in the election. it's nuts that we read it on the internet and we would go by and laugh at how insane it was. this idea that powell that gina haspal had been hurt in germany and got out there so widely that the cia had to issue a statement saying no, gina haspal is in her
office and she's just fine. i mean it's insane. it happened at the top levels of our government. >> it is. >> jonathan, i look back over those four years and yes, as an american, i am grateful that donald is no longer there. the further we get away from it, i am just as grateful that the grifters and the third tier losers are the drags of washington, d.c. that they were taken out from the top levels of government when donald trump was defeated. those are the people who again who is as much as trump caused
grave damage to this republican. >> and still do. >> and by the way, they're still making money off of it. one of the things that the january 6th committee is looking into is the money trail and the way in which this whole effort was used to raise money on essentially fraud and a lie. it's still happening and they're still raising a lot of money from a lot of people that can't afford it but sucked into believe these lies. >> why would donald trump ever stop running for reelection when we have known him for a long time. the guy is driven by money. he cares about money. he raised tens of millions of dollars to challenge the election. he does not spend the money on that. he can raise millions and millions of dollars being a grifter on a national scale whether he decides to run for president or not. one point that mika brought up
to me, you know, these people you bring up who helped save your republic, they're not going to be around in '24. >> he's just going about trying to destroy anybody that defied him at the moment whether those voted for impeachment in the house or raffensperger who stopped him at the state level. he won't be able to take them all out. i don't know if he's going to run again. as you know i have said i think he ultimately won't run again. but, he certainly be telling us he's going to be running and until the moment comes he's going to make it like he's running again. he's not going to rule it out. another significant development we learned about in the last 24 hours that the rnc is now paying
more of his personal legal bills and the reason why that is significant to me, one of the things i have learned in this book is trump did say he's leaving the party. i am gone, i am creating my own party. he said he didn't care when ronald mcdaniels that you are going to destroy the party and you will never win again. the only reason he backed down because top rnc official threatened him that the move would cost him tens of millions of dollars. part of that equation was legal bills and now you see it's not just legal bills associated with the elections but they're paying legal bills associated to new york. >> his new book is entitled "betrayal," the final act of the trump's show. up next, something special for the book lovers out there.
125 years of literary history from the new york times book review, i love this special edition, we'll talk about it when "morning joe" comes back. tt when "morning joe" comes back. m. ...demands a lotion this pure. new gold bond pure moisture lotion. 24-hour hydration. no parabens, dyes, or fragrances. gold bond. champion your skin. (burke) this is why you want farmers claim forgiveness... [echoing] claim forgiveness-ness, your home premium won't go up just because of this. (woman) wow, that's something.
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we have the world's most respected writers, the times is reflecting on its own history with a book of its own. the new york times book review 125 year of literary history which is now deputy of new york times' book review. tina, i got to say, i open up my sunday new york times a couple of weeks ago and i got this and i flipped through it and i did it for one reason alone, i wanted to see who got the most
horrendously wrong take on any book. i died laughing through the entire review of many considered to be the book of the century. reviewers said a reader of that of intelligence was going take nothing from this book other than confusion and disgust. i love at the end the viewers said i hope he's doing this because i may be the only person in the world other than him who'll read this twice. now i have blabbed about how fun it was for me, how much fun was it for you to put together? >> it was so much fun that i suggested to my boss on several occasions it just allowed me to spend all my time in the
archives. my god, so many books which are now classics, poor anna green gables who got slammed and "catch 22" got the most negative review of any book in the 20th century. it really has been fun. >> so, let's talk about history. history of the book review of the new york was fascinating. >> it went on for months and the fascinating thing about that to me is that authors were such pop culture icons. like they were the beyonc of their days. the news about them whether they were going to a party or taking a cruise or dying was often
front page news. >> oh -- >> yeah, we are looking at that cover. >> one of the things that fascinated me about this entire exercise and looking through this supplement of the book is actually what essential place books have had literary greats have had in our lives through the generations. >> it's true and the book review itself, the paper and the book review itself really functioned as much more than a place to find the next book you are going to read. i mean from the beginning it was about bringing the world of ideas to the american readers and that's what i love about it so much.
i think that it's nothing less than history of american letters. of course the past 125 years o f the book review, it's like it almost stimulated so much discussion. >> tina, i am not going to ask you if you created anything in the file from joe helick complaining about "catch 22" and the reviews was brutal. i am going the ask you back in the file, there has to be some point someone making a decision to have reviewers of some note basically being given an op-ed column in the new york times book review to review a book and insert their own feelings and views about the life they are leading with regards to the book they are viewing. i mean some huge heavy weights have done this. >> huge heavy weights,
presidents and nobel winners. i am stunned when i look back at the people who reviewed over the years. i would search in the archives by name sometimes and oh my god dorothy parker, or oh my god theodore roosevelt reviewed a paper. it seems to start in the early 20th century, around 1905, that's when the book review made a conscious decision to go after big names to review big books. not all books but just big books. i will say the decision to require actual by lines of our reviews didn't come in until the 1920s. you saw a lot unnamed viewers taking shots at books. >> it's interesting even on this show, some of the reviews have been so sparkling and so steler that we would actually ask the
reviewers to come on instead of the actual book they reviewed. what do you want me to talk about? just talk, you are brilliant and you have a way with words and going back five years for the last book they wrote. again, you are drawing the leader in and even for a book that is with great writing and so important. as far as the presidents, theodore roosevelt and jfk and clinton and yes, presidents have written reviews. >> hey tina, it's jonathan. and words of advise from some favorite authors.
here is my favorite, mark twain's review was recommended. it's friday and that seems to be a good recipe for success, what are some others in there, fun little things you found as you went through the archives and went through the reviews. other tips that you can share. >> there is a front page story of 1905 of tough jack london attending a birthday party for a dog named fluffy ruffles. it was front page news. shortly after "winnie the pooh" came out, wait until father sees the poem it going to write about him when i grow up. just obvious. there is an interview with scott and zelda fitzgerald's daughter
complaining that flappers made terrible parents. they just sit around on their fat hands. finding those news stories was great. there is fitzgerald. i love this photo. we had an amazing photo editor for the book. i have never seen this photo before. this was early '20s. the fitzgerald, just look at that picture. >> it's great. >> it's remarkable. >> this is gene robinson. how do you as ed contador of the times' book review, how do you deal with the responsibility of being the book review in this country. everybody writes a book wants to be reviewed, was i reviewed in the times or did they like it or not. that sense of make or break, and that power being in your hands,
how do you deal with is that? >> we have such a group of smart passionate editors at the book review, i will tell you there is nothing we like better than finding that book that no one ever heard of or that debut novel and like turning our fire hoods on that when it's a great book. that's such a great feeling. we are careful to do what we call, we survey the water front, we are looking at everything, trying not to miss anything. we are also really working hard to be as diverse ideologically as we can and to push ourselves and to say to ourselves, i am not going to agree with this book but it's important that we
review it. >> you also do valuable service for "morning joe," you help us bookings. i go through it every sunday and we always find great guests on the books that you selected. tina jordan, thank you very much and congratulations. >> the new york times book review, 125 years of literary history is available now and for everybody that asks, what do i want for christmas in my family, make sure one person gets me this. still ahead on the ground in fly over countries, also called scarborough's country a few years back. we have a look on a recent documentary that paints a picture of small town america, it's inspiring. keep it right here on "morning joe." ght here on "morning joe. ...and dry, cracked skin. new gold bond advanced healing ointment. restore healthy skin, with no sticky feeling.
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they'll look at you and say well, this is a cell phone. you never seen one of those before? just that belief that somehow by living out here we are not as metropolitan and savvy to what's going on in the world. ill argue perhaps we know a little better because we take the time to focus on it. that makes us a whole lot more worldly than people believe. that's probably one stick jab if we will go to a big city and somebody finds out you are from a small town, they just assume that you have not been paying attention. >> that reminds me so much of my mom, the first time she went up north and asked repeatedly in pennsylvania, how long she's been wearing shoes. they were shocked. she was wearing shoes. that was a look at the new hbo's documentary titled "our town" by the same name written by our
next guest james and deb fowler. they are my nominees for our lives live well. deb, i want to start with this review, it's a beautiful review really summarizes the project you have been doing. there may not be a purple mountains in this good news of documentary but the majesty everywhere. the sardine canneries in maine. and really the stars are everyday people. it sounds tripe but you have seen it. you have been there. it's the reality. tell us about this beautiful story. >> you are right. the majesty of this film is
amaze amazing. it's all due to genie jordan. it was quite an experience for us and jim and me to see those thousands, tens of thousands of words we wrote turned into these beautiful visual expressions of places from maine and the deserts, we went to mississippi with them. 100 days of filming they managed to capture into this documentary was a fleet of miracle. >> just beautiful. and james, i remember after 2016, people said hey, we got to get out to middle america and see what we miss in the 2016 election. some reporters in new york city would drive to eastern
pennsylvania two hours away and said okay, got it and drove back. explain the process that you and deb have been going through for the past decades. >> we mainly and we travel all over the country, the crucial they think was having a luxury of time. the other thing was not asking people about the subject, most likely to divide them. mainly how they felt about national politics and where you are not going to learn anything more than what you already know but rather what engrosses them and the drama they with part of and their school districts how they are managing their fisheries and farms in the long run. there is all this richness and wisdom and parts of the country, they are portrayed as objects of things happening elsewhere. it's apart of the country, it's
the face of america that people don't get to see. >> jonathan lemire has the next question. >> congratulations on the film. i want to talk about pivoting forward slightly obviously every part of this country from big city to small town have been touched by the coronavirus pandemic. i was curious if you have talked to some of the people that you have gotten to know during this project and how their communities are holding up in terms of the impact of the virus and in terms of cases but also how to reshape their lives and what the vaccine roll-out has been because there has been such concerns not reaching the small town as quickly as it needs to. >> yeah, we tried really hard throughout the last 15 months or so to keep in touch with the people we met and know in this small town and to make new
friends. it's harder like everybody else. it has been over zoom or phone calls or e-mails. we do have this set, i would say the most important thing that i have learned on this is how some of the public institutions in the country have become so resilient in turning and changing what they have done to new versions of that. i have to call out the libraries here which have gone to a very important moment with what they do with the internet. we all and when you live in new york and d.c., you think if there is a little blimp in your service is terrible. if you are some of the 35% of the people don't have internet connections or go to places like libraries to get it, you know how badly -- sending volunteers
around in shot spots and families can drive their kids and doing school work in their cars. examples of things like that show a strength in some of the public institutions are responding during this pandemic and making it better and probably not going back to all of the traditional ways but learning from what is happening. >> victoria has the next question. >> first off, thank you for this as someone who grew up in rural southeast arizona, 28,000 this. thank you for this portrait and this documentary is on what unites rather than this constant division, what are the notes that our leaders on the coast and especially in d.c. can take with them and amplify it out. >> thank you so much for that
question. the country has always been a land of strives but there is been effort to bring people together. what we would like people to know is how vast a source of tested ideas and willing participants and new approaches to institutional life and community life and cultural life that exists through the 50 states of america that now had a chance to be applied nationally and including the central role of america becoming more inclusive diverse version of itself as it has been the saga of our century. >> the new documentary "our towns" is beautiful and important, it debuts tomorrow on hbo and hbo max. james and deb fallows. thank you for being us. up next n the role of the
battle of the sox's on and off the court. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." court. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ 'tis the season to break tradition in a cadillac. don't just put on a light show—be the light show. make your nights anything but silent. and ride in a sleigh that really slays. because in a cadillac, tradition is yours to define. so visit a cadillac showroom, and start celebrating today. ♪ ♪
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andy murray back in 2017 correcting in in 2017 who corre the accomplishments of women like venus and serena williams by focusing only on male players in tennis. >> the first u.s. player to reach a major semifinal since 2009. how would you describe -- >> no. >> beg your pardon? >> male player? >> yes, first male player, that's for sure. >> that moment and many others may never happen without the trail blazing leadership of our next guest, billie jean king, and that is just part of her legacy. billie jean has emerged and
beyond and the legendary tennis champion joins us now, author of the new autobiography "all in" and joining us, an msnbc contributor, errin haines. billie jean, it's great to have you back on the show. >> hi, everyone. you have a real team there. i like it. >> we got the full squad for you, billie jean. what was it like toe sit down and capture your life and your career and now your legacy? >> whoa. it took over four years, it was a lot of work, i had a lot of help, obviously. i had researchers. you think you remember things and they go, well, there's a newspaper clipping from, you know, 1960. and i go, whoa, i'm not even close. i had to go back and really dig deep. some of it was very painful to relive. especially when i had to go in studio and read it for the
audible edition and i had to stop a few times. at other times it was great to reflect on friendships and relationships and why things happened the way they did and how -- you know, because the players, you know, stayed together, we were able to change things for the positive. it was fantastic. so, it's been a roller coaster, it's been hard. i thought, you know what, everyone's been bugging me to do it for a long time. the last time i did this type of book was in the '70s. i just hope that maybe -- i talked about sexuality, i talked about my eating disorder. i talked about all these things that i hope will make a difference in maybe somebody's life that will help them become their authentic self or just look at life a little differently for themselves and maybe be positive. >> billie jean king, good morning, thank you for being here. it's jonathan lemire. as you were talking, we showed clips of you standing with superstars of today's game, the williams sisters and naomi
osaka. i wanted to get your thoughts on the state of the game, not only on the court and off, ms. osaka and her mental health, and simone biles at the olympics. talk to us about the progress you've seen on issues like that since you were playing. >> well, first of all, as a 12-year-old, when i had my epiphany, i wanted tennis to be a platform. what i love about the young players playing today, they're using tennis in a positive way to make the world a better place and talk about issues that matter, black lives matter, or in this case, mental health. naomi is fantastic, what a great champion. of course, simone biles, can't say enough about her. i think it's great they talk about it. now that we have social media, in the old days we didn't have this. there's a way to communicate faster, sometimes better, sometimes not so good. it can be -- that's a
double-edged sword, as we all know. but i think it's good. we're all talking about it. that's what is always helpful and maybe it will help them get some help. i'm big on therapy. i'm very big on -- i've had a lot of therapy. and it's really helped me a lot. so, i hope they reach out. also, i think we need better rookie schools and that when you want to become a professional athlete or top athlete or olympic athlete, there's a lot that comes with that. it's not just playing tennis or if you're a gymnast, do what you do. there's a lot more to it. and the media is a huge part of why we make the money we make today. and i don't know if they have that connection. but we also -- money is not everything. your personal health is the most important thing. health is wealth. i hope that everyone takes a break. if it's too much, if it's too much, don't play. take good care of yourself. >> right. >> i've always thought about privilege -- i've always thought
about pressure is a privilege. i had a saying, pressure is a privilege. i thought about pressure as you can be a friend or a foe of it. i always -- i try to welcome it. >> and it's mika hi. >> hi, mika. >> hi. money is want everything. at the same time, women, talk about equal pay. in our day, it was untoward to ask about equal pay or even ask for a raise. >> i know. i keep encouraging women to follow the money. boys are taught to follow the money and girls are want. i want girls to follow money because that equals power, choice, freedom, mobility, all these things. it is important. that was one of our fights in our sport in 1970, all of us signed a $1 contract and that was the birth of women's professional tennis. without us, they wouldn't be making the money. without all the businesses that have gotten behind it and believe in us, you know, in
2007, we finally got equal prize money in all the majors. the men and women get equal prize money today in tennis. that's why we are the leaders in women's sports. >> the new autobiography is "all in." billie jean king, thank you so much. in." billie jean king, thank you so much -hey tex, -wooo. can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ age before beauty? why not both? visibly diminish wrinkled skin in... crepe corrector lotion... only from gold bond.
♪♪ good morning and welcome to a special edition of "morning joe." we're on tape on this christmas eve morning, but we hope that you're having a great day, a great holiday. we have plenty of great conversations prepared for you. let's dive right in. a few document's ever generate a tidal wave of hype before its release but this year one high-profile film did just that. certainly in my eyes it did not disappoint. peter jackson's epic "the beatles get back" is a six-hour masterful journey that will
capture the hearts and minds of even the most casual beatles fans. today there's more than one mccartney making headlines. i recently spoke with photographer, author and vegan chef mary mccartney. we had a wide-ranging conversation about her fantastic new show on discovery plus, meatless mondays, and we talked a little about her famous dad. paul mccartney is back in the spotlight thanks to a new docuseries and this incredible book, but he's not the only mccartney taking over the television screens. mary mccartney is back now with season two of her own series and it's on discovery plus "mary serves it up" and the author, photographer and chef joins us now. let me just say, a massive fan of your father, so i apologize -- >> i am, too. >> -- for the billions and billions of fans who have made your life more difficult through
the years. also a big fan of yours. >> thank you. >> can we talk first about instagram and your photography, because, you know, we grew up seeing your mom's photography. i just think it's so cool. >> thank you. >> that that legacy lives on. her legacy lives on through you. >> i love instagram because it's instant. i love the way you can stay in touch with people globally. >> talk about your portraits. >> that's my -- you're talking about my mom. i grew up watching her take photographs, so i thought everybody had an eye to take pictures, so i never thought to do it as a career. and then one day i was looking at one of my best friend's holiday pictures and they were awful. i thought, well, maybe i can actually do this. not everyone can do this. i phoned my mom and i said, i'm going to do it and take the leap and be a professional photographer. it's quite challenging.
when you pick up a camera, you're so comfortable here, when i pick up a camera, attitudes thing. what i love about it is collaborating, putting someone at ease. it's like the cooking show, the same sensibility. it's like cooking for someone, making them happy. my photograph is not to go in and overpower. i love going in and being invited into people's homes and taking pictures of them. i love that you touched on the lyrics book, dad's lyrics books because i have a few pictures in that as well. as i've grown up, we collaborate more together. >> what's so cool about the lyrics book is your dad is always -- and i can't imagine being yanked at like that throughout your entire life and asking questions. you can tell he's kind of like, okay, i've answered this 8 billion times -- >> no, no, no. >> but here's the lyrics. >> it is like that. >> usually it would be like, what happened when -- well, you
know, it's a lovely day. >> i like that impersonation. >> it's really scary. i've been listening to him my whole life. but in this book he talks about his dear dad and his mom, who you're named after. it really is -- it's extraordinarily revealing and beautiful. >> it's very honest and intimate. you know he's a guest on one of the episodes of the show. >> awesome. >> i do my celebration meal for him. >> of course i know because we watch your show. >> so, that's really cute because going back to what you say about the lyrics, i make yorkshire puddings, so we have a plum protein instead of meat protein. and i think you call them popovers, yorkshire puddings, and so his mom would always keep -- serve them as a dessert with golden syrup. we have them with gravy for the whole meal.
>> i'm excited about your recipes because they're vegan. if you're experiments and you want to eat less meat, it's hard to get started. and having good recipes can be such a good help. your sister is one of my favorite designers. i don't have much of her work, but i admire. she also does not use any animal skin. you are also committed vegan. what is it about how you were raised that give you such an awareness of animal welfare. >> we were brought up as a vegetarian family. it wasn't like rammed down our throats. it was something we enjoyed. so, when mom and dad sat down, they were like, kids -- mom particularly didn't want to cook meat anymore. mom and dad made the decision together. they were like, we're not going to have meat in the house anymore. because as a family we talked about food, we thought about how something gets to your plate. we grew up enjoying it rather than -- where i come in, why i did the cooking show, it's, as
you say, people do meat free monday or want to reduce their carbon footprint or for the environment or ethical reasons. i have grown up that way and sustained it because i really genuinely enjoy it because, like i said, it's something stella takes into her fashion. it's very much ingrained in our family ethos. i'm proud of mom and dad, they didn't make us do it. we do it because we want to. that makes it more genuine. i never want to be that preachy person of you can't eat what you want. you need to do it because you want to. >> it's a feature of your new show. oprah winfrey, reese witherspoon. how do you decide what to cook with them? how does that collaboration come about this is have you found people that are not vegan but into it while doing it with you? >> well, oprah and reese aren't vegan. a lot of my friends aren't, but
what i'll do is think, if i'm cooking for you, get a feeling of the favors you like. have you in mind, imagine you coming over to my place, and then i'll sort of just think of flavors for you. so, with oprah it was about entertaining. i was imagining her inviting friends around a cocktail party. all bite-sized things. reese witherspoon had messaged me saying, i want to learn a family-style meal i can put down on the table so we did a big pasta dish. i think of that person and get inspired by them. >> sounds like an invitation. >> it is. your dad's episode, the first of the second season, he actually shows his drink, the macarena. >> macarita. >> it's a margarita with a twist. >> by the way, i noticed -- you get the shot. i'm like, okay, that's great. and then another, and then another. and then he helpfully tells everybody, only drink one, but
you've had more than one, right? >> yeah. it's one and two, if you're eating with it is the right amount. but no more than that. it packs a punch but it's so good. what was really sweet with the show, because i said, do you want to come on? he said, let me think about it. when we did it, we set it up like we would at home so the lighting is quite soft and the meal, i'm sort of like -- he tests all the things i'm making for our christmas dinner. and then as we do at home, he is sort of making the cocktail while i'm finishing off cooking. it's chilled because it's all made ahead. i'm just heating it up because i've made it before. >> that's perfect entertaining. >> the show is full of shortcuts and make ahead. because i want to hang out. >> because when you have a dinner party, you don't want to be in the kitchen finishing up. you want to have your cocktail and hang out. >> jonathan and i hate when we're in the kitchen. everybody is hanging around. it's just awful.
>> we would get you you working in the kitchen. it's a group collaboration. >> i did want to talk about the atmosphere. because really -- it was such a home atmosphere. your dad, you almost forget for a second that he's like, you know, our century's mozart. he's just your proud dad and it's so cute. but the whole thing has this very mellow, homey feel to it. >> did you get that feeling with my dad? >> i did. >> i like that. >> especially at the end when he walked out and he's like, okay, i'm done here. you asked him a lot of cool questions. the three people he wanted to have dinner with. i thought that was neat, which people will love on the show. your plan-ahead, though -- >> plan ahead. >> it's a brilliant concept. you showed -- and then you put it in the freezer. >> what was sweet, going back to what you are saying, we set it up -- i want people to enjoy any food experience i'm involved in.
whether i cook for you, i want you -- i'm feeding you, but we made the setting so that dad literally -- we were chatting and cooking and then i'd start talking to the camera and he's like -- he forgot we were on the set. i was like -- it was so cute. and then he started talking to the camera. yeah, mission accomplished. >> the only time there was a problem is when your dad had to get the orange -- he's like, wait. mika always -- >> yeah. >> that's what he does. >> so mary gives -- he's like, i have to do this? it was like 1954. >> the glass blown and he's like -- i said to them, this is going to be a problem because he's an electric squeezer guy. >> exactly. that was funny. that bit. he was tipping it on the table. >> by the way, i saw while he was doing that, i saw some very good edits. >> you watched very closely. >> he's going like this, and i'm
going, he's not going to get enough. the next second you go, and now we pour in the 12 gallons of orange juice. >> that's so funny. >> i want to talk about your mom and how she's influenced this and how proud she would be. i remember first time i get to see your dad alive was '89, flowers in the dirt tour. >> and she was there. >> she was there. >> did you see her lava lamps? >> yes. it was the first chance i'd get a chance to see your dad, who was my biggest influence growing up on anything. so i go to the store and they've got the mccartney store and paul mccartney ear muffs and paul mccartney clock. i get all this stuff -- >> did you really get ear muffs? >> no. i'll just tell you this, whatever they were selling, i bought it. and then i saw your mom's cookbook. i put down my hamburger and i
said, well, this is interesting. what was at that point pretty revolutionary still is -- my 13-year-old son last week, this big, strapping baseball player, he comes home from school, he goes, dad, i think i want to be a vegan. >> what? >> and what i thought was, first of all, how cool, he wanted to do it. >> how great for you to say, how cool, because in the past it was like, how are you going to get your protein? >> exactly. >> that's so amazing. times have changed so much. >> that's what i was going to say from '89 to now, the fact that my southern, athletic, baseball-loving son and he wanted to do it for animal welfare, he wanted to do it for his health and the environment. your mom would be so proud to see your show, wouldn't she, and how this is all mainstream. >> lewis hamilton, the formula 1
racer, he's vegan. there are more vegan athletes. the guy who won wimbledon, he's vegan. do you go to the cooking show for ideas? >> i actually am. this is what i've wanted to do for a long time because, i'm not going to lie, i'm a southern, meat and potatoes guy. >> no judgment. >> thank you very much. i appreciate that. but what i've always wanted to do and what i thought would be a cool start, you don't have to jump all the way in. you always have been pushing meatless mondays. i always thought, well, that's cool. if i could just figure out how to do it on monday and then i could do it on a friday. now i have a 13-year-old son who's going to require it. talk about meatless mondays, too. >> it's all about -- me and stella and dad started promoting it about 11 years ago. we love it because it's a really simple idea. it's a community, word of mouth thing. stop eating meat on a monday and
by doing that you reduce your carbon footprint -- i think it's like not driving a car for a whole month, reducing it one day a month for a whole year. it makes a difference. >> your show gives people ideas. for people that haven't seen the show, talk about what they're going to see in terms of planning meals out. >> in each episode i do four recipes. at the end of the episode, i have a great guest i cook with. i'm a people person and a portrait photographer as well, so that gives me a chance to interview with people. the recipes are plant-based, really quick, simple, and i use as many shortcuts as i can. >> we like shortcuts. >> it's hearty and delicious and satisfying as well. >> thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> before we leave, though, have we figured out what we call her dad? i asked, is it sir paul? she says, well, that's -- >> heel actually was given
another honor after. commander of honor. >> commander? >> commander, sir? >> it's one above a sir. >> sir is not good enough. >> it's not. >> but we just call him paul. >> all right. the new episodes of "mary mccartney serves it up" are available now on discovery plus. thank you so much. >> thank you so much. >> it is great to have you here. >> thank you. >> and we will prepare for meatless mondays. my son jack thanks you. up next, two music legends talk about their new album and more ahead. it will be a treat for fans of both led zeppelin and country music. we'll be right back. ♪♪♪ my name is austin james. as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre 2 system. with a painless, one-second scan i know my glucose numbers without fingersticks.
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lead singer and lyricist of led zeppelin and robert plant and alison krauss released their first album called "raise the roof." i'm looking at my. notes here and, robert anthony plant, is an english singer and songwriter best known as lead singer and lyrcist, in all caps, led zeppelin. i find that amusing. this is exciting. you guys are back together again. talk about the new project. >> well, yeah, infamous. i don't even know what happened back then, but i do know i'm very glad to be where i am now in great company with alison.
we teamed up almost -- not by accident but by chance 15 -- 14, 15 years ago. we found that even though we came from ridiculously different musical appreciations, if you like, backgrounds, we had quite a lot of stuff in common. first of all, we like to be happy and we like to be liked and we like to sing. and the challenge was, how are you ever going to mix these two vocal styles. so, we went about it, did what we did, had a fantastic time. mysteriously -- well, we traveled for quite a long time together, didn't we, alison, and then our little project "raising sand" came to a head and we went about our previous business and was always looking for a reason to get back together and never found it until recently. >> alison, you guys came
together and it was just a natural fit. as robert said, it just came together when robert asked you to sing with him for a tribute at the rock and roll hall of fame. talk about that. >> yeah. well, i had gotten a phone call from him to come up there and play a lot of bluegrass songs, they come from the -- they come from different sources, too, and so ledbelly's music has found its way into bluegrass through the years and some of the tunes robert suggested that we play together were things that i knew, but i didn't know how it would be when he would arrange them. and it ended up being a lot of fun and intriguing. and the first conversation we had when i got there was about ralph stanley. and so i thought, oh, we'll be fine. >> alison, you worked with t-bone, who i thought was very interesting. i love what t-bone said about
the new album. he said, there are -- dispute the fact these are old standards, there's no nostalgia in this album because you two put your own stamp -- your own interpretation onto it, so it's very new, very dynamic. >> well, you know, like a great song and great poetry, there's countless lives that it has. you know, just when you hear somebody read a piece of poetry, depending on the person reading it, it's going to have a new life from there. it's the same way with these beautiful songs that we've got to do and just to have our own interpretation, it has a very personal feeling to it. we've enjoyed it. >> robert, talk about working with t-bone. >> yeah, well, t-bone is a little bit of a grand viseur.
he's got a hell of a presence. he's a big, tall, looming character who has all sorts of tangential ideas and a bag of mystical music, and so do we, too, as well. so, really, yeah, it's like -- it's like a christmas cracker. you pull it and sometimes you make it a funny hat and sometimes you get a great joke and sometimes you get a great piece of music. he's a miracle man. wish he would pay a little more attention at times, but he's really a fantastic guy. i love him very much. and i never really had a brother, so i adopt him a few years ago, but sometimes he won't come home for tea. >> but you're saying you wish he would pay attention a little more. does t-bone have problems focusing in the studio? >> no, not at all. it's just a tough gig to be the guy who's actually not taking all the -- he's almost like a shepherd, kind of wandering
around. these quotes are going to kill me. he's going to kill me. but he's got to keep the interest going while we're me meandering around trying to figure out what key to sing this in and having a good time. it's a very difficult gig to keep going. so, i think he does an admirable job and he's really helped by some spectacular musicians who are omni present in everything that we do, and i think quite a lot of things that he could, if he has the audacity to work without us. >> i was always hugely a fan of british music, led zeppelin, the kinks, i never understood how much these country singers meant to all of my heroes who seem to be from this extraordinary land far away, whether it was zeppelin or the beatles. talk about that. >> life was kind of different in
england. we didn't have any -- we didn't have any fancy stuff. at the end of the war, it was a pretty gray place to be. we didn't know about anything at all except for these amazing bursts of color like little richard and carl perkins and the whole deal. perkins was leaning like johnny cash coming out of, you know, south tennessee around memphis and heading up to nashville. but we were much -- i think really a lot of us were really into the rockabilly side of country, like conway twitty, so we were really digging something that was a little further south. nashville was very polished. when elvis went up and signed to rca and started cutting those great records, then our concentration moved more towards nashville by the work that he did, and glen campbell and that sort of thing, charlie rich. people were moving always to the
better recording studios up there in nashville. as far as country went, i didn't learn too much at all about it, just like alison said about a lot of stuff she didn't comprehend from my world, i didn't really learn a huge amount until i met my friend there, who's sitting in that studio 5,000 miles from me. >> all right. well, it's an incredible new album "raise the roof." robert plant and alison krauss, thank you so much. can't wait to see you live when you go out in june of next year. up next, a look at one of the most iconic basketball players of all time. larry legend and those 1980s boston celtics and how larry bird and magic johnson changed the game of basketball forever. "morning joe" is back in a minute. firefighter maggie gronewald knows how to handle dry weather... ...and dry, cracked skin. new gold bond advanced healing ointment.
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brings it down. you see two seconds, one, and the world champions, the boston celtics. so, the celtics with their 14th -- >> the buzzer sounded at the end of the 1981 nba finals, few knew it was just the start of what would be one of the most successful dynasties in nba history. with us now, sports columnist and associate editor for the boston globe, dan shaughnessy, "wish it lasted forever: life with the larry bird celtics." thank you for being with us. i don't have to ask you the question i usually ask authors, why did you choose this subject. it seems like a pretty obvious subject being a sports writer in boston. but what an extraordinary story
to tell. >> it was. i was the beat guy for "the boston globe" for four years. that was no small thing. bob ryan, lo and behold, went to work on tv and left the celtic beat so "the globe" asked me to take over for bob, and it ended up being four great years. i know you're a basketball fan, joe, s.e.c. fan. larry bird grew up an s.e.c. fan, rooting for kentucky a little bit. you had this reign when bird and magic came into the nba in the 1979 and the league was in trouble then. you know, the finals were on tape delay, you know, there was drug issues in the league, 17 out of 23 teams losing moeb. these two guys kind of rescued it. the bird/magic nba finals became like the ali/frazier fights. it allowed the league to take off. >> looking back, i watched ncaa basketball finals year in and year out. a few stand out in my mind. of course, '84 and '85 are two of those. another one was larry bird and
magic johnson, when larry was at indiana state. i never really knew the story behind that. why indiana state and why not indiana? why indiana state and not kentucky? were they not interested in him? >> he was from rural southern indiana, so kentucky was the destination. he and his dad went to lexington. hall, the coach of the wildcats, he determined larry bird was not fast enough to get his shot off in the s.e.c., so he did not get a scholarship offer. no offer from kentucky. bobby knight did come down to the southern part of the state, recruited him for indiana. knight was at the top of his game then. when larry got to campus, nobody treated him that well, he was intimidated by the kids' cars and clothes they wore, his roommate had nice clothes. and the upper classmen, they kind of big-timed him. he couldn't work out in the gym. he was kind of lonely and poor and he hitch hiked home. he just left. showed up in his grandmother's kitchen and took a year off.
that's when he worked on a garbage truck and did maintenance for public works. then indiana state came around and said, now come to us. he did. fast forward, he led them to the 33-0 season in '79, ep imdual match in finals. most watched college game in history and always will be. they beat indiana state. it took him five years to get his revenge back and beat magic in the nba finals. >> what separated larry bird from so many other players? >> i think growing up poor, the hunger he had. he never took anything for granted. he wasn't entitled. wasn't an aau warrior. it was all hard work. he just wanted to be the best player on his high school team. he had older brothers who played. he wanted to be like mark and mike bird. admired them. they would carry the wash to the
laundromat while mom was doing laundry and they would shoot hoops across the street. he grew up with nothing, i'm telling you, nothing. everything meant a lot to him getting a free scholarship and then playing in the nba, he would talk to his teammates and say, this is a tough life. we got a free hotel, free bus rides, free tickets to the games and we get paid to play basketball. he couldn't believe it. >> mike barnicle? >> you and i have talked over the years about many athletes and the composition gene they have. it strikes me larry bird -- you'll rank them, but larry bird's competition gene was massive. how did he get that? you just explained partially how he got it, but how did he retain it and was he the biggest guy that you've ever met with a huge competition gene? >> competition gene, i mean, this was every day. you'd get to practice, he just wanted -- first of all, he wanted money and he valued money. he was standing in the gym and
you walked in, he would say, give me $1 if i make it from here? he meant it. and he would shoot for money. that's what he was all about, shoot for money. when they had the three-point contest, it was $10,000, the first ever three-point contest. he said, well, i'll win that. he walked into the room with seven other competitors and said, which one of you guys are going to finish second? he never even took off his warm-up jacket. he went out there, made all his threes, and said, where is my $10,000? that was it. it really motivated him. he took me for $160 in a free-throw shooting contest. stupid me signing up for it. to this day if you run into larry bird and say, what did you take scoop shaughnessy for, he would say, i still got $160 in my pocket from that guy. >> yeah, no one is going to be surprised you lost that. sorry. i grew up in lowell, massachusetts, idolizing the celtics and larry bird.
in fact, i have a version of that warm-up jacket he wore for that three-point contest. i want to talk to you specifically about the '86 celtics, to my mind, the greatest nba team of all time. one that others might say the warriors, but talk about that team, if you think it's the greatest and why it is. >> you, sir, are correct. bill walts said, i got a year of my life, i wish it lasted forever because he was here for that. they went 50-1 at home, counting the playoffs. they had five hall of famers, including walton coming off the bench as a hall of famer. it translates to today's game. bill walton was 7'2", mchill, 6'10", larry bird, outside shooters, danny ainge. rick carlisle coaches in the nba today. he says it translates.
kevin mchale when i talked to him for the book, i said, how would you do against people today? he says, we could play with those guys, but they were calling the rules of 1980, that allows us to do it. if they call the rules of today, we would probably all foul out in the first quarter. >> dan, it's so interesting when you talk about larry bird being so competitive and remembering a bet that he had with you years ago. it reminds me of what we saw with michael jordan in those espn documentaries, just about how competitive he was every second of his life. larry bird has seemed to age gracefully. hasn't had quite as many bumps in the road at times as michael jordan. talk about -- talk about bird and how he moved from being a superstar to being a coach to being the front office. >> good point. he retired in 1992. he won the gold medal with the dream team and that was it. he knew his back wasn't going to
allow him to play at the highest level anymore. we were surprised when he took a job coaching the indiana pacers because i never thought he would want to work that hard. it's hard work coaching the nba. he did it. but he knew the term limits was three years. he said, i'm going to do this for three years and go away. sure enough, his third year he took them to the finals and walked. in his experience as a player, three years is about the length of time the players are still listening to you. he was a good coach and he was a good gm. he was good at all of it. it's kind of done with it now, i think. he's got sort of a ceremonial job with the pacers now. he's not active. he's not current. he's in naples, florida, golfing a lot of the time. does an occasional commercial and doesn't do much of anything else. >> can you talk about his relationship with magic. it was just -- it was hypercompetitive. as they aged, it was beautiful. i love the story of magic flying to french lick to try to break the ice with larry. but, man, it was hard to do
because larry bird was so competitive. >> that was the bar. he always checked it out. so, again, this goes back to your kentucky interest. i know you love kentucky. larry did, too. when they were young players and he ends up at indiana state and magic at michigan state, there was a summer team that competed internationally of college stars. bird and magic were on that team but lexington boys were playing ahead of them. bird and magic were on the bench because they weren't kentucky guys. they were angry about that together and they said to the greatness of the final four, they play each other, magic beats him and larry would always check the l.a. box score. he wanted to know what was going on with the lakers. and in the first four years they were in the nba, each one was in the finals but never against each other. rookie year, larry was rookie of the year, magic won a title. they didn't meet until '83-'84 and that's when it got interesting and you had those three epic match-ups with
celtics/lakers. >> the new book is "wish it lasted forever: life with larry bird celtics." dan shaughnessy, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. coming up, from the hardwood to the gridiron. how taking a knee helped change the world. a recent book examines the lasting legacy of colin kaepernick. the best things america makes are the things america makes out here. the history she writes in her clear blue skies. the legends she births on hometown fields.
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from the movie with sing karaoke. plus, see sing 2 in theaters with buy-one-get-one free fandango tickets. join over a million members by signing up for free on the xfinity app. our thanks. your rewards. ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." five years ago san francisco 49ers quarterback colin kaepernick made then what was an unprecedented decision, to kneel during the national anthem during a preseason game in san diego. the response, of course, was polarizing. some calling him a hero, others calling him un-american. less than a year later, the quarterback, who had led his team to the super bowl just three seasons earlier, would be out of the league entirely. kaepernick has yet to take another snap in the nfl. joining us now, sports editor
for "the nation" and host of "the edge of sports" podcast, dave ziron, host of "the kaepernick effect: taking a knee, changing the world." dave, good to see you. there's been so much controversy, so much debate about that act of taking a knee. i think a lot of people forget what compelled colin kaepernick to do it in the first place. he had this career that took him to the super bowl, they came within a few inches of winning the super bowl with him at quarterback. the next year they make a run through the playoffs as well. he's one of the premiere quarterbacks in the league. so, what brought him to this decision that, obviously, changed his life and as you say in the book, changed the world? >> yeah, it was the summer of 2016. and if you remember that summer, there were two very high-profile killings by police. one of a man named alton sterling and philando castile.
and colin kaepernick was another person disgusted by what was happening. he made the prided decision. he didn't send a tweet, he made the private decision he was going to sit on the bench behind his team during the playing of the national anthem. it was a statement of disgust about the gap between what the flag is supposed to represent and the lived experiences of black and brown people in the united states. now, we may never even had known he had done this. it might have only been a one week thing except a terrific reporter, named steve weiss, had been reading his social media. he saw him sitting and he made a beeline for kaepernick and said, all right, what's going on? colin kaepernick said why he was doing what he was doing and that's when the firestorm really erupted. >> dave, gene robinson has a question for you. gene? >> yeah, dave, it looks right now as if colin kaepernick is never going to take another snap
in the nfl. is that right? if so, what is he doing now? what does his future look like? >> it's interesting. first i have to say, i wrote this book about colin kaepernick but it's not really about colin kaepernick. it's about the thousands of young people who took a knee and were inspired to do so from scarborough country to seattle, washington. what colin kaepernick is doing right now is trying to figure out, i think, his next move. he still works out, he still things he deserves a spot in the national football league. anyone who knows nfl football knows he deserves a spot on a roster. he's certainly good enough to have one. but he's been colluded against. the people of the nfl have decided he's more valuable as a ghost story to haunt a young generation of players than he can as someone that can add to a winning team. they say, don't be like colin kaepernick, stay in line, don't take a knee, don't alienate fans. they want him as a punished
figure than someone who can help a team. that's a darn shame. he's got all sorts of projects lined up. he has a film on netflix about his life, a book for kids about what it was like to grow up as an adopted biracial biracial kid in suburban wisconsin. he has a book coming out about criminal justice i believe he edited. i think in the next year, you'll hear more from him than we've heard in the last five years. >> dave, since taking a knee has become -- since colin kaepernick became a worldwide event. you see premier league soccer players doing it. you see athletes around the world doing it. as their expression for racial justice, do they trace it directly to colin kaepernick or has it taken on a life of its own? >> i mean, it's starts with colin kaepernick. that's what the colin kaepernick effect is about. i think colin kaepernick's gift that we're going be feeling for
decades to come is that he gave these young athletes and professional athletes, a language and a method by which they can protest as athletes. if they were upset about the world. i mean, i interviewed young athletes for this book from beaumont, texas to the florida panhandle. these are folks who are disgusted about racism in the united states. these are high school students. these are young athletes. yet it's not like they can go out there in texas and go to the nearest back lives matter demonstration. they were in a state of frustration. it's like what can they do to register to their community they're upset. to start a conversation in their community. by colin kaepernick taking the knee, they immediately saw something and recognized a language and method by which they could register their discontent and the shock waves it created, i would argue, it has gone largely unreported. we're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of athletes throughout the country that, over the last four or five
years, have seen the playing field as an appropriate place to register dissent. >> yeah, dave, as you said the book is about a lot more than colin kaepernick. he's at the center of it. if goes back to the history of protest in sports. a long history that didn't begin with colin kaepernick. you talk about muhammad ali and the '68 mexico games. and what has come since, as you alluded to, and the way the leagues handled it differently. the nba saying we embrace this. lebron james, lead the way. these big marquee players willing to put themselves out there and the league embracing it in the way the nfl hasn't. what has been the difference in the approach of pro sports leagues? >> well, i think in the national basketball association, you said the two key words and that's lebron james. so you have the best player in the world say i want to be a political athlete. lebron james said i want to be a global icon like muhammad ali.
lebron james was strongly affected like the people i interviewed in book by the 2012 killing of trayvon martin and lebron james decided he was going to bend the nba to be more accepting of political athletes. he became like a force field for other athletes who wanted to be political. how can you punish the last guy on the bench, if you're going to celebrate lebron james being political in the nfl is tougher. the franchise owners are a conservative bunch. the contracts are not guaranteed. the average career only lasts three years. so at the nfl they have done is what i would describe as carrot and stick. i mean, they put decals on the helmets, they write "end racism" in the end zone. they have safe social justice organizing you can do, if you're a player and want to do something and meet with the local police captain and talk about policing. they allow things like that. but colin kaepernick still no job. kenny stills and eric reed, two
people who took a knee. outside the nfl looking in. that's the sthick. if you want to be politically active, do it within prescribed parameters but don't step outside or else you'll find yourself without work. >> mike has a question for you. >> you outlined the reality of the nfl. a big corporate enterprise run by conservative billionaires and the nba, a more active league in terms of influencing the culture around them through their sport and their players. my question to you is, why is it that major league baseball looks like it's 1955? [ laughter ] >> that's a great question! i mean, i will say this, though, about major league baseball. something remarkable happened last august when the milwaukee bucs players said they weren't going to play after the police shooting of jacob blake in ken
kenosha, wisconsin. the brewers decided they weren't going to play. it was a one-day day of protest. it could have knocked me over. you don't see it in major league baseball. it's a conservative league from not wanting people to flip the bats to not wanting to talk about social justice, but, you know, i have a lot of hope in the young generation of baseball players coming up. like i have a lot of hope in the young generation in this country. i started this book being pessimistic. thinking about how all these athletes tried to stand up and received terrible backlashes in their hometowns. but when i talk to the young people, and i talked to dozens and dozens of young athletes, they were so hopeful what they had done. they felt vindicated be i the mess protests in 2020. it gave me a sense of hope. i feel like the young generation is less tolerant of intolerance
than any history in the united states. >> the new book is "kaepernick effect." thank you for being with us this morning. gate this landscape, leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. age before beauty? why not both? visibly diminish wrinkled skin in... crepe corrector lotion... only from gold bond. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's once-monthly injectable cabenuva. cabenuva is the only once-a-month, complete hiv treatment for adults who are undetectable. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections,
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