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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  December 14, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PST

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message is the january 6th attack tonight. tonight, republican woman, liz cheney, the vice chair of the committee, laid out all of that damning evidence. >> after 187 minutes president trump refused to act. when action by our president was required and indeed compelled by our constitution mr. meadows received numerous text messages which he has produced without any privilege claim imploring that mr. trump take the specific action that we all knew his duty required. these text messages leave no doubt that the white house knew what was happening here at the capitol. members of congress the press and others wrote to mark meadows as the attack was underway. one text mr. meadows received,
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quote, we are under siege here at the capitol. another quote, they have breached the capitol. in the third, mark protesters are literally storming the capitol breaking windows on doors, rushing in. is trump going to say something? there is an arm standoff on the house chamber of doors. and another from inside the capitol. we are all helpless. , dozens of, techs in colluding trump officials, urged immediate action. he has to come out firmly until the protesters to dissipate. someone is going to get killed. in another mark, he needs to stop this now. a third in all caps, tell them
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to go home. a fourth, and i quote, he needs to calm this shit down. indeed, according to the records. multiple fox news host knew the president needed to act immediately. they texted mr. meadows, and he has turned over those texts. quote, mark, the president needs to tell people in the capital to go home. this is hurting all of us. he is destroying his legacy, laura ingraham wrote. please, get him on tv destroying everything you have accomplished. ryan kilmeade texted quote, can he make a statement? ask people to leave the capital, sean hannity urged. as the violence continued, one of the president son texted mr.
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meadows, quote, he's got to condemn this shit asap. the capitol police tweet is not enough. donald trump jr. texted. meadows responded. quote, i'm pushing it hard, i agree. still president trump did not immediately act. donald trump jr. texted again and again. urging action by the president. quote, we need an oval office address. he has to lead now. it has gone too far and gotten out of hand, end quote. but hours passed without necessary action by the president. he knew, they all knew, even sean hannity, while moments ago that committee voted
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unanimously to hold mark meadows, donald trump's chief of staff in criminal contempt. for refusing to comply with their subpoena. and the amazing thing is that mark meadows served in that body for seven years. and tonight every single member on that bipartisan committee, many of his former colleagues voted to hold him in criminal contempt. tonight's vote, comes ahead of a vote from the full house of representatives. that is expected to happen tomorrow if the house votes in line with the committee, as they are likely to do. the department of justice will then get the case. and they will have to decide whether or not to truly prosecute mark meadows. and if doj moves forward with those charges, meadows could face time in prison. we have already seen that process play out with trump ally steve bannon, who was indicted last month on two counts of contempt of congress. he faces up to a year in prison and fined above 200 and thousand dollars for each count. a judge recently sent his date
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for next july. the recent committee also wanted to hold jeffrey clark in contempt he's the former department official, who tried to help donald trump steal the election, especially in georgia but this vote tonight on mark meadows is a particularly big deal. the white house chief of staff is an extremely important role last year he was one of the most powerful people in the country. people may know steve bannon's name more than mark meadows's, but on january the six bannon was just a podcast, and jeffrey clark was an unknown department of justice lawyer was. mark meadows was in the oval office, every day with donald trump and, we know that meadows was involved in the planning leading up to january the 6th, last night the one six committee released a 51-page report detailing their case for holding meadows in contempt. they highlighted some of the strongest evidence meadows already provided to them in the more than 6000 pages of emails
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and 2000 text messages that he turned over. and one of those emails, he said that the national guard would be present to protect pro trump people that many more would be available on standby. he exchanged text messages, and provided -- after the organizers told him that, quote, things have gotten crazy. and it desperately need some direction please. if this goes all the way. if the full house vote to refer meadows's case to the doj, they bring charges of meadows is convicted, he can go to prison for up to a year if convicted to up to just one count. the last time something of this happened was in 1975. when president nixon's white house was -- sentenced to prison for his involvement in the washington gate. he spent eight months after being -- now i keep asking myself on nights like this why are people like mark meadows so willing to
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risk going to prison for, of all people donald j trump. a man so disloyal that he recently called meadows's book, ally. what is it about donald trump? that makes us allies willing to throw themselves under a bus for him? even though he never seems to have their back? well it looks like mark meadows is going to be the latest to find out if that blind loyalty is worth it. congressman is a democrat from california and a member of the january six committee. congressman, thank you for coming on the show tonight. it's a busy night for you. big vote, explain to our viewers why it's such a big deal, what a big step it is. to go after former white house chief of staff in this way. >> thank you for having me, mehdi. this is important because we need to uphold the rule of law. that is what the committee has been talking about, and that no one is above the lawful subpoena. so, even because mark meadows
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served in this body, he doesn't play by a separate set of rules. he has to come before us since we gave him a lawful subpoena. and clearly, he demonstrated that a lot of the material that we are seeking was within bounds. because he gave it to us. over 9000 pages, 6000 documents. we shared some of those. you heard some of those directly from my colleagues and i. just less than an hour ago. so this is an important step that we are taking because, fundamentally, this is about upholding democracy. this is about ensuring that this never happens again. and in order to do that, we have to understand exactly what happened on january 5th, and january 6th. clearly, mr. meadows played a role in that, not just in his government had either. which is very clear from the documents that he provided. he was a campaign adviser as well. so we want to ask him questions about the documents that he submitted. but just because he's asking folks to buy his book instead or he's willing to talk to a friendly host in the media, but not us. that is offensive. and he should be held
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accountable for it. >> i am glad you mentioned his personal role as well. i believe according to the report you put out yesterday, he was using personal phones and his own gmail to communicate about all of this. i seem remember a time when hillary clinton got into a little bit of trouble for not using her government phones in account for issues of state. i also find a fascinating that he didn't turn up for his interview with you guys on the same day that his book came out. so there is a guy who really wants to keep conversations privileged. let me ask you this-- >> there is some curious timing, without a doubt-- >> it is. what work you are doing, the work the one six committee is doing, is clearly valuable, important, you're making progress, it's revelatory. look at what we are doing tonight. we're leading on this huge story. but i have to ask, congressman, it's december. we have three weeks away from the one six anniversary. the first anniversary. you guys came to office in january. joe biden has been president since january. democrats have controlled the
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house and senate since january. what has it taken this long to start getting to the bottom of what happened on one six? >> well that is a good question. i think it's important to note that the history of the committee's work. initially, we passed and worked with republicans here in the house to pass a january six commission that would've been 9/11 style commission. a democratic and republican appointees. but mitch mcconnell asked his senate caucus to do him a personal favor. and to vote against the measure. so then we had to come back. and we had to pass this just where legislators would serve on the body. and so that took a little bit of time. and i am comfortable going to my constituents and telling them it took a little bit of time because we wanted to get it right, because we wanted to make this above politics. because we wanted to make this not just bipartisan, but nonpartisan. those conversations take a little time. but i will tell you, vice chair cheney and tara thompson have done an amazing job. in making sure that we are focused, we are driven. the committee staff has done an amazing set of workload on our
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behalf. 300 interviews that we have conducted so far. there is a lot of work product even though i know the public is only seeing a little bit of it. you saw a glimpse of the text messages and the additional work that we have been doing. >> i mean, the clock is ticking as you know better than me, we've got midterms coming up and the republicans are likely to take the house and shut down everything that you are doing on day one. so let me ask you this before we run out of time-- >> i don't think that's going to happen, but we are going to work to make sure that that is not the case. but-- >> well, i would be shocked, congressman, if you did think, if you were gonna tell me live on air that republicans are going to win the house next year. we are almost all the time-- >> but we feel that sense of urgency. >> we are spending a lot of time talking about the people who are not cooperating. but chairman benny thompson said in his open statement tonight, that he expected that a dozen key witnesses will provide testimony to the committee this week. what can you tell us about the people who are cooperating? and with the committee is learning? >> we are learning different facets of what happened. and clearly, what one of the things we should be focused on,
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and having a lot of testimony about, is the planning of january 5th and january six rallies. these were multiple rallies and the individuals in their court nation with people in it, inside and out of government, have been key to a focus that we have been looking at. so our work continues, we are not going to be deterred even by mr. meadows and his book tour. we are going to continue to do the work to get to the truth of what happened. we will do more public hearings, after the start of the year. and it will come in a report that we are going to put out to the american public and to congress. a lot to look forward to congressman pete aguilar, thank you for your time tonight, i appreciate it. >> thank you mehdi. >> do not go anywhere. because there is a lot to get to from that contempt vote, including that bit about the fox news host, texting mark meadows while the attack unfolded at the capitol on january the six. kind of different to what they were saying on the shows. we will come back to all of that, just ahead. that, just ahead
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mr. meadows as it did with mr. bannon, and prosecute him for violating the law and his duty as a citizen. >> this select committee has a lot of questions about the president said and did on january 6th we. have a lot of questions about the protests that day and how they escalated into awry it. and mark meadows says he cannot discuss those details with us, but apparently he can put them in his book. >> mr. meadows was a central participant in the events that culminated in this assault on our capital, our country, and our core democratic values. >> this witness must testify like 300 witnesses before him have done. >> this reached the highest levels of our government and runs right through mr. meadows. >> the house committee investigating january 6th did not mince words before voting unanimously to recommend a report holding former trump trump chief of staff in contempt for defining the
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committee subpoenas. don't forget, the numbers of the committee know meadows personally, even one of trump's most devoted sycophants in congress, or should comes bryce that he brought that same sense of why loyalty when trump is a pointed him white house chief of staff in march of last year, and what has become clear is that meadows was one of the leading masterminds behind the attempted coup, the couture try to keep donald trump in office. every day we continue to learn more and more about how involved he was, as white house chief of staff you travel to georgia during the week of christmas last year to oversee an audit of the states election, and when he returned he named names getting trump to call the woman in charge of that audit and pressure her into alleging. fraud meadows was also pressuring department of justice trying to get acting eternal attorney general jeffrey rosen to investigate the bogus fraud claims, including the bunkers conspiracy theory that people italy were using military satellites to change the u.s.
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vote count. in january meadows was also part of that now infamous phone call where trump tried to intimidate brad raffensperger to find the votes he needed to win. >> but in some of these areas where there seems to be a difference of where the facts seem to lead, and so mister secretary, i was hopeful that, you know, in the spirit of cooperation and compromise, is there something that we can at least evidence caution to look at some of these allegations to find a path forward that's less litigious? >> meadows was not just listening in on the call, he was right there making threats about trying to find the path forward. we now know, thanks to the committee that just days after that call, on january 5th, meadows reportedly sent an email in which he said the national guard could be used to protect pro trump people on
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january 6th, the day the mob of pro-trump people stormed the capital and tried to undo our democracy. even though less than a week ago meadows claimed he had no idea what would happen on the 6th of january. >> we can all condemn what happened on january 6th, and rightfully so. but i'm not aware of anybody in the west wing that had any advanced knowledge that the security was going to be reached at the capital. >> marc miller was the chiefs to spokesperson for the department of justice during the and katie benner covers the doj for the new york times. they join me now. thank you both. it's a busy night. caitlin, we come to you first. the banning case was pretty cut and dried. meadows was the chief of staff at the white house, though, so him freeing being preferred for criminal content is much bigger deal. he would say he has a stronger privilege claim. is that the case, or does him
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spilling all these beans and a new memoir on mind him? >> it does have a stronger case then ban ended, but let's take a look at the case that prosecutors will have to weigh should the house refer him to the attorney's office here in washington for possible condemn charges. now they're gonna look at the fact that he did speak about many of these things publicly and book but they will also look at you can tell from the tax messages and the things that the committee wants to ask, they want to talk about things that had nothing to do with running the country. keep in mind, executive privilege, because is generally extended so that when you are not part of a process where you're trying to run the federal government, you're decisions the should be making is not scrutinized by people after you, as the privilege that extends so the people in good faith can make great decisions about had around the country. this is not about running the country. it's clear from the text messages, you are from the committee, you heard from the documents, it's clear from the way that they characterize them, that mr. meadows is talking about the election, and running for election and trying to
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remain in office are not things that you do as president. you do that is a candidate. again, prosecutors are weighing what are the facts of the committee is trying to look at, and do they generally fall under privilege? and the committee will also look at the fact that he also spoke, through his documents but then decided not to speak in person. >> i know lawyer, but i'm pretty sure executive privilege wasn't designed to cover conversations with sean hannity. to hold him accountable for this pretty serious coup attempt. bannon is going on trial next year, of the full house holds him in contempt, how much pressure is garland going to be other than, from liberals, from democrats? >> he's gonna be islander lot of pressure but i have to be honest with everything adel from the justice department i don't think he feels the political pressure in the way that some of the political actors in the political administration. he said he wanted to be attorney general. if we look only at the facts in the law.
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i think that's how he's approach the job so far. i do think, to echo a case, this is going to be much closer case for the justice department then the bannon prosecution wise. meadows privilege came is weak, it has been rejected by the sitting president. it covers ground that is clearly involves government misconduct, and i figure if it were go to the courts but that's not the same things and didn't show up and do it. i think that he's kicking up a lot of gust to try to quash the supreme and i think his lawyer including a professional try to make the case that that is before the courts right, now we can't possibly indict my client, and look left himself vulnerable by not coming out in testifying about things that are privilege but excuse me that are not privileged, but i
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think it's gonna be a close call that will first, at the first time will be made and decided by the u.s. attorney for gets decided to the attorney general. so i think we have to remember that this is the first order of business, not just merrick garland's decision. there are people inside the garland weighing in well before it gets there. >> katie, i don't want to get lost in the that ellis, jenna alice, trump's personal, lawyer she wrote the 2nd memo suggesting mike pence could overturn the election in defiance of the law and the constitution on the 6th. that's in addition to another crewmember she already wrote. at the going to be any consequences for people like these people who were doing, on the face of, it seemingly, advocating seemingly illegal maneuvers? >> i would think they would argue is that they were writing these memos and they were making the suggestions to the former president because they did truly believe that he had
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one when there have been so much fraud that it was possible to say that joe biden had won. their intent was not to throw the overthrow the government to stop some kind of illegal overthrow which would prevent the massive voter fraud which they publicly pounding the table on. we can say that they were wrong. we know that the national security, intelligence community has said that this is one of the was secure elections, if not the most secure elections we've ever had. we know that every recounted shown that the results were, as predicted, whether they were for joe biden or whether they were for dame trump, but the people who were working with former president to try to keep him in power, they would argue that they were doing this with the intent of stopping a steel, not the intent to overthrow the government. and that would be there, that will probably be their best offense. >> we're almost out of time, but i have to ask, did you have kanye west's published turning up in georgia to intimidate a georgia election worker into
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admitting to false election fraud on your 2021 bingo card? did you have that investigated? >> i didn't have any of this on my bingo card. it's hard to imagine the things that happened in the last year, for 5 years you could've predicted in advance. yes, it should be investigated. it may be that there is an investigation going on into that conduct and the justice department's been very quiet about what it has been doing. it's a prices, me though, that, let's say this, if it were under investigation i would've expected to conduct this type of investigation you have to go out and interview people, and we haven't seen any reports of anyone close to the president or any of the people in his 2nd or 3rd rings of influence reporting grand jury subpoenas. so no clear signs that it's happening, as of yet. >> the story gets crazier and crazier and more and more disturbing. matt miller and katie benner i appreciate your analysis tonight. thank you so much. when we come back, of the most
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jaw-dropping moment of the contempt vote, the mark meadows, the fox news hosts who are texting meadows in a panic during january 6th attack, and you might be surprised to. we'll get to it all right after. this don't go away. is don't go away
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because even though they grow up, they'll always be your baby. covered california. this way to health insurance. enroll by december 31st at coveredca.com. six committee laid out tonight against former white house chief of staff, mark meadows, was truly extraordinary. and it was all evidence that mark meadows, himself, turned over to the committee at his own will. that evidence showed that a slew of fox news host from laura ingraham to sean hannity were begging mark meadows to get donald trump to stop the siege. and he refused. >> indeed. according to the records, multiple fox news host knew the president needed to act immediately. they texted mr. meadows. and he has turned over those texts. quote, mark, the president
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needs to tell people in the capital to go home. this is hurting all of us. he is destroying his legacy, laura ingraham wrote. please, get him on tv. destroying everything you have accomplished, brian kilmeade texted. quote, can he make a statement? ask people to leave the capital, sean hannity urged. as the violence continued, one of the president son texted mr. meadows, quote, he's got to condemn this shit asap. the capitol police tweet is not enough. donald trump jr. texted. meadows responded. quote, i'm pushing it hard, i agree. still president trump did not immediately act.
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donald trump jr. texted again and again. urging action by the president. quote, we need an oval office address. he has to lead now. it has gone too far and gotten out of hand, end quote. but hours passed without necessary action by the president. >> i for 1 am shocked that fox news host was saying things in private different to what they say in public, shocked. angelo carosone is the president of media matters and he joins me now. angelo, the fox news host that liz cheney quoted, a very pro trump i think it's fair to say. but even they were worried, in private, about what was happening on january the six. that is a big deal, is it not? that they were in contact with the white house chief of staff. asking him to get trump to call off the mob? >> yes, it is, and it's a big deal because for two reasons. one, this is a stunning illustration, and it's rare to use the word stunning in relation to something fox does. but this is a stunning illustration of the trump fox feedback
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because it shows that in realtime, on january six, they knew that there was a problem. they tried to protect and advise trump to address that problem in realtime. and then after january six, they ran cover for him, and then to this day continued to rewrite history. and the second reason is that we actually have their words that they were saying on air-- >> ok. >>--at the same time they were sending these messages. >> angelo, i'm going to jump in because you said we have their words on air. and now brilliant producers here at all in, they are going to show you what the fox guys were saying. have a watch. >> now the democrat's case rests on two incredibly flawed and extremely weak arguments. now the first, the president said fight like hell. and those words are unacceptable and they incited an insurrection on january six. >> the core claim of democrat impeachment article is that trump's speech incited the january six riot, his speech on january six.
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>> fight like hell. >> well it is language that they have use, that republicans have used, big deal. it shows nothing. >> there is a word for what we just saw angelo, it's gaslighting. and not thanks to these texts, we have the evidence, the clear evidence for that gaslighting. >> that's right. and on january six itself, the same day that they were sending these text messages, all three of these individuals, laura ingraham, sean hannity, brian killing. went on fox news and while they were telling donald trump that he needed to call on his supporters, they were telling fox news viewers, and the rest of the american public by extension, that the people who are actually attacking the capitol were not donald trump supporters but actually secretly antifa or black life matters. laure ingraham called in, and did a show that night. brian killmeade did the same thing. they recognized, in realtime that this was actually trump supporters and yet they spent an enormous amount of effort, that very day, lying explicitly saying and
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blaming this on antifa and black lives matter. >> so, i want everyone to carry on watching on msnbc tonight as they will. i know your organization monitors fox news and watches the shows. i'm going to ask you a question, angelo. tonight at 9:00, is sean hannity going to address his role in all of this? is laura ingraham going to address her role in all of this? i am not holding my breath. >> no, they are not. just like how they didn't cover liz cheney's remarks to the january six committee's vote in realtime, they are not going to respond to this tonight. they are going to wait until they have a chance to deflected and attack. and if they can't find an effective deflection than they are just going to ignore it and direct their audiences eyes to something else. and that is actually the part about this that is so scary it's that not only does it illustrate the brazenness to which they're willing to lie, to deceive people. it's one thing to happen after the fact that they're going to rewrite history and engage in political cover-up. but the
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idea that at the same time they were texting mark meadows, they were actually spinning something totally different for fox viewers, for their viewers and it's genuinely stunning but beyond that it shows that we are in an environment right now where impunity is what is in control. and that is scary. because an environment where there's impunity means that you start to have no rule of law and you basically have authoritarianism. >> one thing that is slightly reassuring from all of these texts, a weird kind of way, the silver lining to this cloud, is that i look at these poll showing that republicans say, well it wasn't that bad on one six, they were all patriots, they were all terrace, it wasn't violent, it was antifa. and i think, well, did they really believe the stuff? and it turns out, the people at the top, they don't believe the stuff. they know the truth. >> yes. and i hope so. i hope that this is a little bit different than the way that it plays out with their covid
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disinformation, right? because at the same time that these very same people are telling them not to get vaccines, not to get a mask. we all know that they are well vaccinated and making sure they are protecting themselves and their families. so that disconnect, i hope in this one instance, that disconnect doesn't apply. the fact that it's actually fox hosts, laura ingraham, sean hannity, brian kilmeade, acknowledging that it's actually trump supporters that were perpetuating this attack, that maybe that resonates a bit differently. i really hope that this is different. and part of it is going to depend on all of us, the american public we in the media, are often accused of disrespecting, conservatives in america. no one disrespects those conservatives more than the actual conservative media as we have discovered with these techs. angela caruso, will have to leave it here, thank you for your time, really appreciated. >> thank you so much. >> next. funding our schools by throwing cash on the ground and making teachers fight for it? an arena full of people chairs
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on. the south dakota dystopia, after this. r this
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gold bond. champion your skin. >> it cannot be said often enough -- we live in the richest country in the history of the world, but often it is hard to tell. we've gotten used to people in this country setting up a gofundme pages to get their fellow americans to help pay for lifesaving medical treatment, the kind of health care that our canadian cousins to the north and our european cousins across the pond take for granted. but, i wonder, is there anything more depressing, more disgusting, more dystopian than watching public servants have to perform in public, humiliate themselves, to get a tiny bit of extra cash for the most basic of supposedly government funded public services? because that is what happened at the dash for cash event in sioux falls, south dakota over the weekend, the junior hockey game where $5,000 in 1000 dollar bills was dumped onto a carpet in the middle of
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the ice ten local teachers ready themselves to shovel up as much as they could win the competition began the teachers, all wearing hockey helmets, called into the pile of cash, frantically stuffing the bills into their shirts as an arena of spectators hollered and cheered until every dollar was snatched up. that description in the washington post doesn't convey the sheer insanity and awfulness of it. i simply cannot describe how bad it was. so just watch for yourself. so what have we come to with our country? on what grounds do we call other countries failed states? how, in the united states of america, in 2021, are we asking teachers, teachers, to scramble on the ground for cash as a stadium full of people cheer and jeer?
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cash, by the way, not for themselves, but to pay for classroom improvements, to pay for flexible seating such as standing desks or document cameras so they can upload lessons online. why? why should they have to do that in the richest country in the history of the world? in recent decades republicans have gutted our public services, often with democratic party support or at least with very little democratic resistance. and so you will be shocked, shocked to hear, that south dakota, a deep red state, ranks 29th in the country in pre-k through 12 education, 38 for student spending, and 50th in teacher pay among 50 states and d. c. remember, this is a choice, to not spend on our kids, to not pay our teachers, to not invest in education. we have the money. the senate right now is about to pass a 778 billion
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dollar bill to fund the department of defense, a bill that is already passed in the house. but spent some of that money on schools or teachers? no, no, no. it is squid game for them. clerk: hello, how can i? sore throat pain? ♪honey lemon♪ try vicks vapocool drops. in honey lemon chill. for fast-acting sore throat relief. wooo vaporize sore throat pain with vicks vapocool drops.
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have died from covid-19. that is more than the entire population of north dakota. more people have died from covid in america than any other country on earth. and 75% of the dead here, with 65 are over. and that means one in every hundred older americans have died in this pandemic. it turns out, there were death panels. but from president trump. not from president obama. the question now, is will there be any legal accountability for those death? because many of those people did not have to die. it was negligent. someone argued, criminal negligence. trump knew how deadly the virus was.
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all the way back in february of 2020, even as he publicly played down. >> it goes through air balled, that's always tougher than the touch. you know the touch, you don't have to touch things right? but the air, you just breathe the air, and that's how it's passed. and so that's a very tricky one. that's a very delicate one. it's also more deadly than your, you know, your's journey is flus. >> millions of americans got sick. some of them directly because of donald trump. >> you had always suspected that you got it from the president, is that right? >> the only reason i suspected it is because he was the only person who i didn't know was testing regularly. that i was in close contact. with all the other people we spoke about it. >> so is this confirmed for you that you did in fact get it from the president? >> i think it's undeniable. >> and yet trump has yet to face any consequences for his actions during the pandemic. an 800,000 americans are dead. many of whom we did not have to
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die. how do we just move on from that? will somebody be held responsible, legally responsible? we have our two people here with us today. the author of, preventing the next pandemic. , elie mystal, let me start with you. he laid out the case against donald trump. a criminal case, with me recently, have a listen. >> i would have already been in the grand jury presenting donald trump's words to the american people as juxtapose against donald trump's words to bob woodward. and ultimately after a full fare presentation to the grand jury. i would've asked the grand jury whether there was enough evidence to indict donald trump for an admittedly low level of homicide. negligence on the side, or
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involuntary manslaughter. >> even if you think you can't go after donald trump. it's too hard. how can we not hold anyone criminally responsible for 800,000 dead. >> on catholic. my people invented the conception of hell in order to have a place to put people like donald trump and his enablers who have led to this massive unnecessary death. but that is a moral question. the legal question, the law is simply not very good at holding public officials accountable for their policy choices. and the monstrous thing that we have to wrestle with as a country is that allowing people to die of covid was a policy choice by donald trump. it is now a policy choice by the republican party and various republican governors around these united states. and when it comes to making that policy choice, it is hard for the law to pierce through
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the veil up that policy choice and get in there and hold them accountable. the accountability is supposed to be political in this case. that is not happening because of the nature of our policy at this point. and if there is additional accountability, it shouldn't really be -- we have to go call talk to the people in geneva. we are getting into the realm of crimes against humanity. much more so than something the american legal system is going to design to handle color glee. >> elie mystal, hold that thought. i want to bring in, peter hotez. you said last month, more people have died of covid vaccine. this year, since june alone, who is to blame for that? >> this is exactly right. there is almost no words to describe it. we call it misinformation or disinformation, mehdi. i don't know what you call, it self humiliation or anti-science aggression. and this is people who had the
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option to get vaccinated who could understand that they needed to get vaccinated and deliberately chose not to. why? because of the words of members of the united states congress. we they were saying that the vaccines are political instruments of control. or first they are going to vaccinate you and then take their guns and bibles away. as ridiculous as that sounds to us, the quarter of the nation believed it. and needlessly lost their lives. it came out of the conservative news outlet. night after night, on fox news, discrediting vaccines. it came from a cultivated group. with those of contrarian intellectuals, coming up from a right think tank who breathed this false narrative of vaccine and other preventative measures. this is the liberal anti-science aggression out of authoritarian rules. >> elie mystal, versatile senate has recommended we the senate for crimes against
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humanity for his handling the coronavirus pandemic. well i am not saying that democrats should be calling for trump to be sent to geneva or wherever it is, but i do want to wonder why why the democrats have not talked more about trump's responsibility for a massive death toll. they are up against a party who went on and on about a handful of tragic deaths, versus 800,000 dead, many of who died on trump's watch. and many who have died because of trump. >> i don't usually defend democrats. but they did try to impeach him twice. and they did successfully impeach him twice. not for covid, but maybe that is the next thing to do. but if you want to talk about democrats, i think what we have to talk about is that it's interesting to me that brazil has a senate that is willing to hold its president accountable. and we do not have an attorney general that is willing to hold the former president accountable. when you are talking about what one person is doing towards
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aggressive legal theories, we have to have a prosecutor. we have to have the united states attorney general who is willing to take the fight to trump. and we don't have that right now. i can't get trump indicted for tax fraud. i can't get him indicted for election fraud. i can't get him indicted for obstruction of justice. i am not done, i cannot get him indicted for sexual assault. i cannot get in indicted for treason. and those are all easy, legal arguments to make than the claims against humanity for his covid mishandling. so in the terms of a prosecutor who is willing to go to the lengths for this man, he is going to continue to walk away free. >> the pressing points, but fair points nevertheless. peter hotez, there are people who believe that the current death toll has crossed 800,000. there are some who say that is an undercount. that the real number could be closer to 1 million, or maybe even across the million mark. is that your view as well? yes, because so many times you have the paramedics come to the
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house and the individual had lost their lives. it was recorded as a sudden death from heart attack. but it could've been covid-19. and look, we have to stop talking about this like it is over. we are waiting for the latest institute of health metrics evaluation coming out at the end of this week. but it is likely that the 800,000 is going to increase to more than 1 million by the end of q one 2022. and again, that is almost going to be all people who are defiant of getting vaccinated. so that one 50, 000, defiant of the vaccine is going to double to 300, 000, 350,000. it is just a massive loss of life all for showing allegiance to far-right extremism. >> yes, it is deeply depressing to see hundreds of people still dying, every single day from covid-19. and yet, we have columbus in the liberal media to saying,
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well, let's move on. you know, covid is over. and it is not over, and that is part of the problem. that we are not holding trump to account, because so many people want to move on. i am not going to move on. i want to hold him to account. elie mystal, peter hotez, thank you both for your time, really appreciated. >> that is all in on this monday night. i am mehdi hassan, chris hayes will be back tomorrow night. and you can find me sunday night on this network, 8 pm eastern right here on msnbc, the rachel matter show starts right now. good evening rachel, how are you. why are you. wh
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tennessee. but even just in kentucky, it is deeply worrying that beyond the dozens of people known to have r been killed already, there are more than a hundred other people who just have not been accounted for since the storms hit. more than 100, again, unaccounted for. this is night three in the cold and the dark, searching. president biden will be traveling to kentucky on wednesday. we have eyes on law enforcementn and on the governor's office overnight tonight as the rescue and recovery efforts continue.ry but this is stretching into the part of the rescue window where things start to get very dire. we've got eyes on that tonight. we will let you know more as we

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