tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 13, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
general bill barr in early december there was no substantial evidence of this fraud. >> that's right. >> one of the things that did come up about mark meadows is mark meadows was actively and aggressively spreading the conspiracy theories on italy-gate. >> from inside the white house. thank you all very much. that is tonight's "reid out." "all in" with chris hayes starts now. good evening from d.c. i am mehdi hasan in for chris hayes. on january 6th, donald trump just stood there in the oval office as lawmakers and members of the press and fox news hosts and his own family members begged and pleaded for him to stop the siege, to step in and tell the mob to leave the capitol. donald trump refused. he stood by and did nothing.
we know this because all those people reached out to donald trump's chief of staff, mark meadows, and he then turned over those messages to the committee investigating the january 6th attack. tonight republican congresswoman liz cheney of wyoming, the vice chair of the committee, laid out all of that damning, damning evidence. >> for 187 minutes president trump refused to act. when action by our president was required, essential, and indeed compelled by his oath to our constitution. mr. meadows received numerous text messages which he has produced without any privilege claim imploring that mr. trump take the specific action we all knew his duty required. these text messages leave no doubt the white house knew exactly what was happening here at the capitol. members of congress, the press,
and others wrote to mark meadows as the attack was under way. one text to mr. meadows said, quote, we are under siege here at the capitol. another, quote, they have breached the capitol. in a third, mark, protesters are literally storming the capitol. breaking windows on doors, rushing in. is trump going to say something? a fourth, there is an armed stand-off at the house chamber door. and another, from someone inside the capitol, we are all helpless. dozens of texts including from trump administration officials urged immediate action by the president. quote, potus has to come out firmly and tell the protesters to dissipate. someone is going to get killed.
in another, mark, he needs to stop this now. a third, in all caps, tell them to go home. a fourth, and i quote, potus needs to calm this shit down. indeed, according to the records, multiple fox news hosts knew the president needed to act immediately. they texted mr. meadows. he has turned over those texts. quote, mark, the president needs to tell people in the capitol to go home. this is hurting all of us. he is destroying his legacy. laura ingram wrote. please, get him on tv. destroying everything you have
accomplished. quote, can he make a statement, ask people to leave the capitol, sean hannity urged. as the violence continued, one of the president's sons texted mr. meadows. quote, he's got to condemn this shit asap. the capitol police tweet is not enough. donald trump jr. texted. meadows responded, quote, i'm pushing it hard. i agree. still, president trump did not immediately act. donald trump jr. texted, again and again, urging action by the president. quote, we need an oval office address. he has to lead now. it has gone too far. and gotten out of hand. end quote. but hours passed without necessary action by the president.
>> he knew. they all knew. even sean hannity. well, just moments ago, that committee voted unanimously to hold mark meadows, donald trump's chief of staff, in criminal contempt for refusing to comply with their subpoena. and the amazing thing is that mark meadows served in that body for seven years. and tonight every single member on that bipartisan committee, many of his former colleagues, voted to hold him in criminal contempt. tonight's vote comes ahead of a vote from the full house of representatives. that is expected to happen tomorrow. if the house votes in line with the committee as they are likely to do, the department of justice will then get the case and they will have to decide whether or not to prosecute mark meadows. and if doj moves forward with those charges, meadows could face time in prison. we've already seen that process play out with trump ally steve bannon who was indicted last month on two counts of contempt of congress. he faces up to a year in prison
and a fine of up to $100,000 for each count. a judge recently set bannon's trial date for next july. earlier this month the january 6th committee also voted in favor of holding jeffrey clark in contempt. you remember him. the former department of justice official who tried to help donald trump steal the election especially in georgia. this vote tonight on mark meadows is a particularly big deal. the white house chief of staff is an extremely important role. last year meadows was considered one of the most powerful people in the country. among the closest people to the then president. people may know steve bannon's name more than mark meadows' but on january 6th bannon was just a podcaster and jeffrey clark was an unknown department of justice lawyer. mark meadows was in the oval office every day with donald trump. and we know that meadows was involved in the planning leading up to and on january 6th. last night the 1-6 committee released a 51-page report detailing their case for holding
meadows in contempt. they highlighted some of the strongest evidence meadows already provided to them in the more than 6,000 pages of e-mails and 2,000 text messages that he turned over. in one of those e-mails meadows said that the national guard would be present to, quote, protect pro trump people and that many more would be available on stand by. he exchanged text messages with and provided guidance to an organizer of the january 6th rally on the ellipse after the organizer told him, quote, things have gotten crazy and i desperately need some direction please. if this goes all the way, if the full house votes to refer meadows' case to the doj, if they bring charges and meadows is convicted he could go to prison for up to a year if convicted on just one count. the last time something of this sort happened was in 1975 when president nixon's white house chief of staff h.r. haldeman was sentenced to prison for his involvement in the watergate scandal and spent 18 months in a federal penitentiary after being convicted of conspiracy,
obstruction of justice, and perjury. i keep asking myself on nights like this why are people like mark meadows so willing to risk going to prison for of all people donald j. trump a man so disloyal he recently called meadows' new book a lie. what is it about donald trump that makes his allies willing to throw themselves under a bus for him even though he never seems to have their backs? well, it looks like mark meadows is going to be the latest to find out if that blind loyalty is worth it. congressman pete aguilar is a democrat from california and a member of the january 6th committee. congressman, thanks for coming on the show tonight. it is a busy night for you. big vote. explain to our viewers why it is such a big deal. what a big step it is to go after a former white house chief of staff in this way. >> thanks for having me, mehdi. this is important because we need to uphold the rule of law. that's what the committee has been talking about and that no one is above a lawful subpoena.
so even because mark meadows served in this body, he doesn't play by a separate set of rules. he has to come before us since we gave him a lawful subpoena and, clearly, he demonstrated that a lot of the material we were seeking was within bounds because he gave it to us. over #9,000 pages, 6,000 documents. we shared some of those. you heard some of those directly from my colleagues and i just less than an hour ago. this is an important step we're taking because fundamentally this is about upholding democracy. this is about ensuring that this never happens again. in order to do that we have to understand exactly what happened on january 5th and january 6th. clearly, mr. meadows played a role in that. not just in his government hat either which it is very clear from the documents that he provided he was a campaign adviser as well. and so he -- we want to ask him questions about the documents he submitted. and just because he is asking
folks to buy his book instead or is willing to talk to friendly hosts in the media, but not us, that's offensive. he should be held accountable for it. >> i'm glad you mentioned his personal role as well. i believe according to the report you put out yesterday he was using personal phones and his own g-mail to communicate about this. i seem to remember a time when hillary clinton got into trouble for not using her government phones and accounts for issues of state. i also find it fascinating he didn't turn up for his interview with you guys on the same day his book came out. there is a guy who really wants to keep conversations privileged. >> curious timing without a doubt. >> it is. what you're doing, the work the 1-6 committee is doing is clearly valuable, important. you're making progress. it is revelatory, but it is december. we are three weeks away from the 1-6 anniversary. you guys came to office in january. joe biden has been president
since january. democrats have controlled the house and senate since january. why has it taken this long to start getting to the bottom of what happened on 1-6? >> it is a good question. i think it is important to note the history of the committee's work. initially, we passed. we worked with republicans here in the house to pass a january 6th commission that would have been 9/11 style commission, democrat and republican appointees, but mitch mcconnell asked his senate caucus to do him a personal favor and to vote against the measure. so then we had to come back and we had to pass this just where legislators would serve on the body. so that took a little time and so i'm comfortable going to my constituents and telling them it took a little bit of time because we wanted to get it right because we wanted to make this above politics because we wanted to make this not just bipartisan but nonpartisan. those conversations take a little time. i will tell you vice chair
cheney and chair thompson have done an amazing job in making sure that we are focused. we are driven. the committee staff has done an amazing set of work load on our behalf. 300 interviews we've conducted so far. there's a lot of work product even though i know the public is only seeing a little bit of it. you saw a glimpse of the text messages and the additional work we have been doing. >> i mean, the clock is ticking as you know better than me. we have midterms coming up and republicans likely to take the house and shut down everything you're doing on day one. so let me ask you this before we run out of time >> i don't think that is going to happen. we'll work to make sure that is not the case. >> i would be shocked, congressman, if you were going to tell me live on air tonight that you think republicans will win the house next year. i have to ask. we're spending a lot of time talking about people not cooperating but chairman thompson said in his opening statement tonight he expects more than a dozen key witnesses will provide testimony to the committee this week. what can you tell us about the people who are cooperating and
what the committee is learning. >> well, we're learning different facets of what happened. clearly, one of the things we have been focused on and having a lot of testimony about is the planning of january 5th and january 6th rallies. these were multiple rallies and the individuals in their coordination with people inside and out of government has been key to a focus we've been looking at. our work continues. we're not going to be deterred even by mr. meadows and his book tour. we'll continue to do the work to get to the truth of what happened and do more public hearings after the start of the year and it will culminate in a report out to the american public and to congress. >> a lot to look forward to. congressman pete aguilar, thank you for your time tonight. i appreciate it. >> thanks, mehdi. do not go anywhere because there is a lot to get to from that contempt vote including that bit about the fox news hosts texting mark meadows while the attack unfolded at the capitol on january 6th. kind of different than they were
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mr. meadows put himself in this situation and he must now accept the consequences. >> it certainly appears that mr. meadows played a key role in events that culminated in the violent attack on the capitol and on our democracy. >> mark meadows has committed a crime in this case a premeditated one. no one is above the law.
not even a former president's chief of staff. >> i expect the justice department to move as swiftly in dealing with mr. meadows as it did with mr. bannon and prosecute him for violating the law and his duty as a citizen. >> the select committee has a lot of questions about what the president said and did on january 6th. we have a lot of questions about the protests that day and how they escalated into a riot. mark meadows says he can't discuss those details with us but apparently he can put them in his book. >> mr. meadows was a central participant in the events that culminated in this assault on our capitol, our country, and our core democratic values. >> this witness must testify like 300 other witnesses before him have done. >> the extent of this effort reached the highest levels of our government and it runs right through mr. meadows. >> the house committee investigating january 6th did
not mince words before voting unanimously to recommend a report holding former trump chief of staff mark meadows in contempt for defying the committee's subpoena. don't forget the members of the committee know meadows very personally. he was one of donald trump's most devoted sycophants in congress. it should come as no surprise he brought the same sense of blind loyalty when then president trump appointed him white house chief of staff in march of last year and what has become clear is meadows was in fact one of the leading masterminds behind the attempted coup. the coup to try and keep donald trump in office. every day we continue to learn more and more about just how involved he was as white house chief of staff he traveled to georgia. during the week of christmas last year to oversee an audit of the state's election. when he returned, he named names, getting trump to call the woman in charge of that audit and pressure her into alleging fraud. during that same time period meadows was also pressuring the department of justice trying to get acting attorney general jeffrey rosen to investigate the
bogus fraud claims including the wild bonkers conspiracy theory that people in italy were using military satellites to change the u.s. vote count. in january meadows was also part of the now infamous phone call where trump tried to intimidate georgia secretary of state republican brad raffensberger to find the votes he needed to win. >> but in some of these areas where there seems to be a difference of where the facts seem to lead, and so mr. secretary, i was hopeful that, you know, in a spirit of cooperation and compromise, is there something that we can at least have a discussion to look at some of these allegations to find a path forward that's less litigious snfrjt meadows was not just listening in on the call. he was right there making threat about trying to find a path forward. we now know thanks to the 1-6
committee just days after that call on january 5th meadows reportedly sent an e-mail in which he said the national guard could be used to protect pro trump people. pro trump people the next day on january 6th. the day the mob, the pro trump people, stormed the capitol and tried to undo our democracy. even though less than a week ago meadows claimed he had no idea what would happen on the 6th of january. >> we can all condemn what happened on january 6th and rightfully so. but i'm not aware of anybody in the west wing that had any advanced knowledge that the security was going to be breached at the capitol. >> matt miller was the chief spokesperson for the department of justice during the obama administration under attorney general eric holder. katy bennett covers the doj for the "new york times." they join me now. thank you both. it is a busy night. the bannon case was pretty cut and dry. meadows was chief of staff at the white house though which means him being referred for
criminal contempt is a much bigger deal in the grand scheme of things but also as chief of staff on 1-6 he would say he has a stronger privilege claim. is that the case? or does him spelling all these beans in his new memoir undermine that claim? >> he does have a stronger case than bannon did but let's take a look at what the prosecutors have to weigh should the full house refer him to the u.s. attorney's office here in washington for possible contempt charges. they are going to look at the fact he did speak about many of these things publicly in his book and also that you can tell from the text messages and the things the committee wants to ask they want to talk about things that had nothing to do with running the country. keep in mind executive privilege is generally extended so that when you are in part of a deliberative process trying to run the federal government your decisions and decision making is not scrutinizing by people after you. that is a privilege we extend so people can in good faith make great decisions about how to run the country. this was not about running the country. it is very clear from the text
messages we've heard from the committee, clear from the documents already released, clear from the way they have characterized them and what mr. meadows is talking about is the election and running for election and trying to remain in office are not things you do as president. you do that as a candidate. so again, prosecutors will be weighing what are the facts that the committee is trying to look at and do they generally fall under privilege and the committee will also look at the fact that he spoke through his documents but then decided not to speak in person. >> i'm no lawyer but i am pretty sure executive privilege wasn't designed to cover conversations with sean hannity. matt, there is a lot of pressure on merrick garland the a.g. to do more to hold the trumpists accountable for this pretty serious coup attempt. bannon is going on trial next year. if the full house votes to hold meadows in contempt and send his case to the doj how much pressure is garland under then from liberals, from democrats? >> he is going to be under a lot of pressure but i have to be honest from everything i can tell from the justice department i don't think he feels the
political pressure in the way that some of the more political actors inside the administration do. he said he wanted to be an attorney general who would look only at the facts and the law and i think that is the way he approached the job so far. i do think this is a much closer case for the justice department than the bannon prosecution was. meadows' privilege claim is clearly weak. it's been rejected by the sitting president. it covers ground that is clearly involving government misconduct. i think if it were to go to the courts ultimately he would lose the claim. that is not the same thing as proving a criminal case he knew he was required to testify and didn't show up and do it. i think his lawyer, one thing he has been successful at is kicking up a lot of dust. he filed a lawsuit last week to try to quash the subpoena and i think his lawyer who is a former deputy attorney general will go to the justice department and try to make the case that this is a disputed claim that is before the courts right now. you can't possibly indict my
client. look, he has left himself vulnerable by not coming in and at least testifying about things that are privileged or excuse me that are not privileged but i think it is going to be a very close call that will first, at the first line be made by the career prosecutors in the u.s. attorney's office and decided by the u.s. attorney before it goes up to the attorney general. i think we have to remember this is a first order of business, not just merrick garland's decision. there will be people inside the department that weigh in well before it gets to him. >> i don't want us all lost in the meadows story because we are learning a lot about people involved in this coup attempt. jenna ellis trump's personal lawyer. we are learning she wrote a second memo suggesting how mike pence could overturn the election in defiance of the law and the constitution on the 6th in addition to another coup memo she wrote. are there going to be any consequences for people like ellis, these people who were doing on the face of it seemingly advocating seemingly illegal maneuvers?
>> i would think they would argue they were writing these memos and making these suggestions to the former president because they did truly believe he had won or there had been so much fraud it was impossible to say joe biden had won. they will say their intent was not to overthrow the government but to stop some sort of illegal overthrow or to prevent the sort of massive voter fraud which they very ardently and publicly pounded the table on. we can say they were wrong. we know the national security, the intelligence community has said this was one of the most secure elections if not the most secure we've ever had. we know every hand recount has shown the results were as predicted whether they went for joe biden or for donald trump. but the people who were working with the former president to try to keep him in power would argue they were doing this with the intent of stopping a steal not the intent to overthrow the government. that would be probably their
best defense. >> we're almost out of time but i have to ask did you have kanye west's publicist turning up in georgia to intimidate a georgia election worker into admitting to false election fraud on your 2021 bingo card? should that be investigated? >> i didn't have any of this on my bingo card. it's hard to imagine any of the things that have happened in the last several years you could have predicted in advance. yes it should be investigated. it may be there is an investigation going on into that conduct. the justice department has been very quiet about what it is doing. it is surprising though, i'll say this, if it were under investigation though i would have expected to have leaked by now to conduct this type of investigation you have to go out and interview people. we haven't seen any reports of anyone close to the president or any of the people in his kind of second or third rings of influence reporting grand jury subpoenas so no clear sign it is
happening as of yet. >> the story gets crazier and crazier and more and more disturbing to be honest. appreciate your analysis tonight. thank you so much. when we come back, the most jaw dropping moment of the contempt vote of mark meadows. the fox news hosts who were texting meadows in a panic during the january 6th attack and you might be surprised who. we'll get to it all right after this. don't go away. kraf. ♪ ♪ no two dreams are the same. but there is one van equipped to handle them all. for over 120 years, mercedes-benz vans have been built, upfitted and ready to go.
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♪ i see them bloom for me and you ♪ (music) ♪ so i think to myself ♪ ♪ oh what a wonderful world ♪ the evidence that the january 6th committee laid out tonight against former white house chief of staff mark meadows was truly extraordinary. it was all evidence that mark meadows himself turned over to the committee in his own will. that evidence showed a slew of fox news hosts from laura ingraham to sean hannity were begging mark meadows to get donald trump to stop the siege and he refused. >> indeed, according to the records, multiple fox news hosts
knew the president needed to act immediately. they texted mr. meadows and he has turned over those texts. quote, mark, the president needs to tell people in the capitol to go home. this is hurting all of us. he is destroying his legacy laura ingraham wrote. please, get him on tv. destroying everything you have accomplished. quote, can he make a statement, ask people to leave the capitol? sean hannity urged. as the violence continued, one of the president's sons texted mr. meadows, quote, he's got to condemn this shit asap. the capitol police tweet is not enough. donald trump jr. texted.
meadows responded, quote, i'm pushing it hard. i agree. still, president trump did not immediately act. donald trump jr. texted again and again urging action by the president. quote, we need an oval office address. he has to lead now. it has gone too far and gotten out of hand. end quote. but hours passed. without necessary action by the president. >> i for one am shocked fox news hosts were staying stuff in private different to what they say in public. shocked. we have the president of media matters joining me now. angulo the fox news hosts liz cheney quoted are very pro trump i think it is fair to say but even they were worried in private about what was happening january 6th. that is a big deal, is it not, that they were in contact with the white house chief of staff asking him to get trump to call
off the mob? >> yeah. it is a big deal because for two reasons. one, this is a stunning illustration, and it is rare to use the word stunning in relation to something fox does but this is a stunning illustration of the trump-fox feedback because it shows in real time on january 6th they knew there was a problem. they tried to protect and advise trump to address that problem in real time. then after january 6th they ran cover for him and to this day continued to rewrite history. the second reason is that we actually have their words that they were saying on air at the same time they were sending these messages. >> okay. i want to jump in because you just said we have their words on air and our brilliant producers are all in. they'll show you what the fox guys were saying. have a watch. >> now the democrats' case rests on two incredibly flawed and extremely weak arguments. now the first that the president said, fight like hell and those
words are unacceptable and they incited an insurrection on january 6th. >> the core claim of democrats' impeachment article is that trump's speech incited the january 6th riot. his speech on january 6th. >> fight like hell. >> well, it's language that they've used, that republicans have used, big deal. shows nothing. >> there is a word for what we just saw. it is gas lighting. now thanks to the texts we have the clear evidence for that gas lighting. >> that's right. on january 6th itself the same day they were sending these text messages all three of these individuals, laura ingraham, sean hannity, and brian kilne went on fox news and while they were telling donald trump he needed to call off his supporters they were telling fox news viewers and the american public by extension that the people that were actually attacking the capitol were not donald trump supporters but actually secretly antifa or black lives matter.
laura ingraham called in. sean hannity did a show that night. brian kilne did the same thing. so they recognized in real time that this was actually trump supporters and yet they spent an enormous amount of effort that very day lying, explicitly saying and blaming this on antifa and black lives matter. >> so i want everyone to carry on watching msnbc tonight as they will. i know your organization monitors fox news and watches their shows. i'll ask you a question. tonight at 9:00 is sean hannity going to address his role in all of this? is laura ingraham going to address her role in all this? i'm not holding my breath. >> no. they're not. just like they didn't cover liz cheney's remarks or the january 6th committee's vote in real time. they're not going to respond to this tonight. they're going to wait until they have a chance to deflect and attack. if they can't find an effective deflection they will just ignore it and instead direct their audience's ire toward something else. and that's actually the part
about this that is so scary is not only does it illustrate the brazenness by which they're willing to lie, deceive people, it is one thing if it happened after the fact they were trying to rewrite history and engage in political cover-up but the idea that at the same time they were texting mark meadows they were actually spinning something totally different for their viewers is stunning. but beyond that it shows we are in an environment right now where impunity is what is in control. that's scary. because an environment where there is impunity means you start to have no rule of law and you basically have authoritarianism. >> one thing that is slightly reassuring from all the texts in a weird kind of way the silver lining to this cloud is that, you know, i look at these polls saying republicans say well it wasn't that bad on 1-6. they were all patriots, all tourists. it wasn't violent. it was antifa. then i think well do they really believe this stuff? it turns out the people at the top don't believe this stuff.
they know the truth. >> yeah. i hope so. i hope that this is a little bit different than the way it plays out with the covid disinformation, right? because while at the same time these very same people are telling people not to get vaccines and not to wear masks we all know they're well vaccinated and making sure they're protecting themselves and their families. >> good point. >> that disconnect, i hope in this one instance that disconnect actually doesn't apply. that the fact that it is actually fox hosts laura ingraham, sean hannity, brian kilmead acknowledging it was trump supporters perpetuating this attack maybe it resonates differently. i really hope this is different. part of this is going to depend on all of us, the american public. >> angelo we in the liberal media, quote-unquote, and people like yourselves are often accused of disrespecting conservatives in america. no one disrespects the conservatives more than the actual conservative media as we have discovered exhibit 776 tonight with these texts.
we have to leave it there. thank you for your time. appreciate it. >> thank you so much. next, funding our schools by throwing cash on the ground and making teachers fight for it while an arena full of people cheers on? a south dakota dystopia after this. for the life -- and years -- ahead. with fidelity income planning, we'll look at what you've saved, what you'll need, and help you build a flexible plan for cash flow designed to last. so you can go from saving... to living. ♪ ♪ cases of anxiety in young adults are rising as experts warn of the effects on well-being caused by the pandemic. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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it cannot be said often enough. we live in the richest country in the history of the world. often, it is hard to tell. we've got news to this people in this country setting up gofundme pages to get fellow americans to help pay for life saving treatment. the kind of health care canadians to the north and europeans across the pond take for granted. is there anything more disgusting or distressing than watching public servants have to perform in public, humiliate themselves to get a tiny bit of
extra cash for the most basic of supposedly government funded public services? that is what happened at the dash for cash event in sioux falls, south dakota over the weekend at a junior hockey game where $5,000 in $1 bills was dumped on to a carpet in the middle of the ice as ten local teachers read id themselves to shovel up as much as they could. when the competition began the teachers all wearing hockey helmets crawled into the pile of crash frantically stuffing the bills into their shirts as an arena of spectators hollered and cheered until every dollar was snatched up. that description in "the washington post" doesn't convey the sheer insanity and awfulness of it. i simply cannot describe how bad it was. just watch for yourself.
what have we come to as a country? what grounds do we call other countries failed states? how in the united states of america in 2021 are we asking teachers, teachers to scramble on the ground for cash as a stadium full of people cheer and jeer? cash by the way not for themselves but to pay for classroom improvements. to pay for flexible seating such as standing desks or wobble chairs or document cameras so they could upload lessons online. why? why should they have to do that in the richest country in the history of the world? in recent decades republicans have gutted our public services often with democratic party support or at least very little democratic resistance. so you'll be shocked, shocked to hear that south dakota, a deep red state, ranks 29th in the country in pre k-12 education. 38th in per student spending. 50th in teacher pay among the 50
states and d.c. remember, this is a choice to not spend on our kids, to not pay our teachers, to not invest in education. we have the money. the senate right now is about to pass a $778 billion bill to fund the department of defense, a bill already passed in the house. but spend some of that money on schools or teachers? no, no, no. it is squid game for them.
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more than 800,000 americans have died from covid-19. that is more than the entire population of north dakota. more people have died from covid in america than in any other country on earth. and 75% of the dead here were 65 or older. that means one in every hundred older americans has died in this pandemic. turns out there were death
panels but from president trump not president obama. the question now is will there be any legal accountability for those deaths? because many of those people did not have to die. it was negligence. some would argue criminal negligence. trump knew how deadly the virus was all the way back in february of 2020 even as he publicly played it down. >> it is through air, bob. the touch you don't have to touch things. the air you just breathe the air. that is how it's passed so that is a very tricky one. that's a very delicate one. it's also more deadly than your, you know, even your strenuous flus. >> millions of americans got sick some of them directly because of donald trump. >> you had always suspected you got it from the president is that right? >> well the only reason i suspected it was because he was only person i didn't know his testing regimen that i was in close contact with.
all the other people we spoke about the fact -- >> did this confirm for you that you did in fact get it from the president? >> i think it is undeniable. >> and yet trump has yet to face any consequences for his actions during the pandemic. 800,000 americans are dead many of whom did not have to die. how do we just move on from that? will somebody be held responsible legally responsible? we have a justice correspondent for "the nation" magazine and dr. peter hotez the codirector of the texas children's hospital for vaccine development and also dean at baylor college of medicine and author of "preventing the next pandemic." thank you both for joining me tonight. let me start with you. former federal prosecutor glen kirschner laid out the criminal case against donald trump with me recently. have a listen. >> i would have already been in the grand jury presenting donald trump's words to the american people as juxtaposed against
donald trump's words to bob woodward and ultimately after a full, fair presentation to the grand jury i would have asked the grand jury whether there was enough evidence to indict donald trump for an admittedly low level of homicide, negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter. >> even if you think you can't go after donald trump, it's too hard, how can we not hold anyone criminally responsible for 800 k dea? >> yeah, look. i'm catholic. my people invented the conception of hell in order to have a place to put people like donald trump and his enablers who have led to this massive, unnecessary death. but that is a moral question. the legal question, the law is simply not very good at holding public officials accountable for their policy choices. and the monstrous thing that we have to wrestle with as a country is that allowing people
to die of covid was a policy choice by donald trump. it is now a policy choice by the republican party and various republican governors around these united states. and when it comes to making that policy choice, it is hard for the law to kind of pierce the veil of that policy choice and get in there and hold them accountable. the accountability is supposed to be political in this case. that's not happening because of the nature of our policy at this poin and if there is additional accountable it should be we got to go talk to the people in geneva. we are now getting into the realm of crimes against humanity. much more so than something the american legal system is designed to handle correctly. >> elie, hold that thought and i'll come back to you. dr. hotez you calculated the end of last month about 150,000 unvaccinated people have died of covid-19 this year since june
alone. who is to blame for that? >> this is exactly right. there are almost no words to describe it. we call it misinformation or disinformation, mehdi. i don't know what you call it. antiscience aggression? this is people who had the option to get vaccinated, could understand they needed to get vaccinated, and deliberately chose not to. why? because of the words of members of the united states congress at the cpac conference saying vaccines are political instruments of control or first they're going to vaccinate you then take your guns and bibles away. as ridiculous as that sound to us one-quarter of the nation believed it and needlessly lost their lives. it came out of the conservative news outlets, night after night on fox news, discrediting vaccines. it came from a cultivated group of contrarian intellectuals or pseudo intellectuals coming out of the far right think tank who weave this false narrative about
vaccines and other covid prevention measures. this was deliberate anti-science aggression and out of authoritarian rule. >> elie, brazil's senate has voted to recommend charges against their president for crimes against humanity for his handling of the coronavirus or mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic. i mean, i'm not saying democrats should be calling for trump to be sent to geneva or wherever it is but i do wonder why the democrats have not talked more about trump's responsibility for a massive death toll. they are up against a party who went on and on about a handful of tragic deaths in benghazi versus 800,000 dead many of whom died on trump's watch many because of donald trump. >> look, he don't usually defend democrats. but they did try to impeach him twice. they successfully impeached him twice. not for covid. maybe that is the next thing to
go. if you want to talk about democrats what we got to talk about is it is interesting to me brazil has a senate willing to hold its president accountable and we do not have an attorney general willing to hold the former president accountable. when you are talking about what glen kirschner is talking about, some of the more aggressive legal theories, we have to have a prosecutor. we have to have a united states attorney general who is willing to take the fight to trump. and we don't have that right now. i can't get trump indicted for tax fraud. i can't get him indicted for election fraud. i can't get him indicted for obstruction of justice. i'm not done. i can't get him indicted for sexual assault. i can't get him indicted for sedition. i can't get him indicted for treason. those are all easier legal arguments to make than the crimes against humanity for covid mishandle go. >> fair point. >> until we get a prosecutor willing to go to the mattresses against this man he is going to continue to walk away free. >> depressing points but fair
nevertheless. dr. hotez there are some researchers who believe the current death toll we're reporting has crossed #800,000 there are some who say that is an under count and the real number may be closer to a million and may have crossed the million mark. is that your view as well? >> yeah, but a so many times you have the paramedics come to the house and the individual had lost their lives. it was recorded as a sudden death event from heart attack but could have been covid-19. and, look. we have also stop talking about this like it's over. we're waiting for the latest metrics evaluations coming out the end of the week. it is likely that 800,000 deaths is going to increase to more than 1 million by the end of q1, 2022. again, it is almost going to be all people who are defiant of getting vaccinated. so that is going to double to 300,000, 350,000. it is just a massive loss of life all for showing allegiance
to far right extremism. >> it is deeply depressing to see hundreds of people still dying every single day from covid-19 and, yet, we have columnists in the liberal media, too, saying, well, let's move on. covid is over. it's not over and that's part of the problem we're not holding trump to account because so many people just want to move on. i'm not going to move on. i want to hold him to account. thank you for your time. that is "all in" on this monday night. i'm mehdi hasan. chris hayes will be back tomorrow night. you can find me sunday nights on this network 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening rachel. how are you? >> good evening. i'm very good mehdi. how are you? nice to see you here in primetime. >> it's nice to be here especially to hand it over to you. >> thank you, my dear. much appreciated. thanks to you at home for