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tv   Ayman  MSNBC  December 4, 2021 8:00pm-9:00pm PST

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that is all the time i have for today. i'm alicia menendez. i'm going to see you back here tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern for more "american voices." but for now i hand it over to my colleague ayman. hey, alicia, how are you? good to see you. >> listen, i've got to give you a warning before you try to make it out of 30 rock tonight. lots and lots of crowds all trying to take pictures with the christmas tree. >> i love to see the enthusiasm. >> yeah, i know. it's a beautiful scene, except when you're trying to get to work and leave work at times. >> thank you for the warning. >> absolutely. good to see you, my friend. enjoy the rest of the night off. welcome to ayman. the future of roe v. wade is in doubt after historic arguments in the supreme court this week. what will this mean for the next generation of women if the rule is overturned? and can democrats use this to their advantage to fire up voters politically speaking? plus sentences continue to be handed down for the participants in the attack on the capitol.
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this as the january 6th committee continues to signal they're not messing around. two of trump's lawyers have now invoked their fifth amendment rights. we're going to talk about what that means. and a state senator from michigan asks a striking question following the deadly school shooting that left four people dead in her state. why are children's lives worth less than guns? she's going to join me live this hour to talk about what she thinks needs to happen to address what's becoming an inherently american problem. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. all right, so nearly 50 years ago the supreme court handed down a very important decision that essentially made it a constitutional right for women to have an abortion. and the two newest justices made it clear this week that right is at risk. on wednesday the justices heard oral arguments on a mississippi
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law that would bar almost all abortions after 16 weeks -- actually, 15 weeks. that law directly contradicts the 1973 roe v. wade ruling which guaranteed that right prior to the viability of the fetus generally considered about 24 weeks into a pregnancy. now, that decision was largely reaffirmed in 1992. and since then, a woman's right to an abortion has been considered settled law. now, those aren't my words. that's what now justice kavanaugh told senator susan collins back in 2018 during his confirmation process in front of the world. but listen to him now just three years later. >> if you think about some of the most important cases, the most consequential cases in this court's history, there's a string of them where the cases overruled precedent. if the court in those cases had -- had listened and they were presented with arguments in
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those cases adhered to precedent in brown v. board, adhered to plessy and adhered to atkins and adhered to lochner. if the court had done that in those cases, you know, the country would be a much different place. >> all right, so the newest justice trump appointee amy coney barrett, she actually questioned whether so-called safe haven laws which aimed to protect abandoned newborns have now distinguished the burden of pregnancy from the burden of parenthood. watch. >> it's also focused on the consequences of parenting and the obligations of mother hood that flow from pregnancy. why don't the safe haven laws take care of that problem? it seems to me it focuses the burden much more narrowly. it doesn't seem to follow that pregnancy and parenthood are all part of the same burden. so it seems to me the choice more focused would be between say the ability to get an abortion at 23 weeks or the
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state requiring the woman to go 15, 16 weeks more and then terminate parental rights at the conclusion. >> all right, so bringing a pregnancy to term obviously brings a great deal of risks. every year 50,000 women in the united states suffer injuries or severe complications related to childbirth. that is a critical consideration to take into account when deciding whether to move forward with a pregnancy. because abortion isn't some abstract medical procedure. it's an essential part of womens health care. in fact, about 1 in 4 women have one in their lifetime. but without these protections guaranteed on a federal level, what would a post-roe america look like? the reality, unfortunately, is very bleak. at this very moment 21 states are waiting in the wings ready to enact laws the moment roe is overturned. now, those laws would make abortions illegal or next to impossible to access.
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for 135 million americans. right now the average american has to travel about 25 miles to reach the nearest abortion provider. without roe that distance increases to 125 miles. now, we won't know the court's decision until june, but it only takes just five votes to strip millions of their access to safe abortions. this week the message from the high court to women across the country rang loud and clear. it may be your body, but it's their choice. joining me now to break down some of the arguments from wednesday is an assistant professor of law at the university michigan law school and co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast which covers the supreme court. leah, it's great to have you with us and thanks for joining us this evening. first, i want to talk about what we heard from justice kavanaugh there on precedent. because it boils down to a legal argument. he invoked cases such as brown vs. board of education, plessy vs. ferguson. obviously those are monumental
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decisions that overturned precedent. he's using that as an explanation as to why the supreme court could potentially overturn roe vs. wade. how often does the court overrule existing precedent, and what do you make of those comparisons? >> so justice kavanaugh was trying to normalize the idea the supreme court would overrule its prior precedent. what he failed to recognize is that the court has never revoked a prior decision recogniing a fundamental right. that is the court has never reversed course and taken away a right from people. what kavanaugh failed to recognition, that plessy, the decision that holding segregation was constitutional represented a failure to give americans rights, where has here the supreme court if it overturned roe would be taking away rights. >> i want to play for you a part from the mississippi solicitor-general and what he had to say in his arguments on
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wednesday. watch this. >> roe v. wade is planned parent hood vs. casey haunt our country. they have no basis in our constitution. they have no home in our history and traditions. they've damaged the democratic process. they've poisoned the law. they've choked off compromise. roe and casey have failed, but the people, if given the chance, will succeed. this court should overrule roe and casey and uphold the states law. >> i want to talk about the term "the people" for a moment. it's something that the supreme court, some of the justices invoked as well that this should be decided by the people. let's talk about that here. 60% of americans say roe v. wade should be upheld. 75% say abortion access should be a decision between a woman and her doctor. and the court is already concerned with its public image. what kind of damage could a decision so out of line with the general public opinion on this issue do to the court, and what do you think of that argument that you're invoking the people?
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it should be the people that decide when overwhelmingly the people believe in the right to abortion for women in this country? >> if it should be the people who should decide you would think that would include the women who would decide whether to end their pregnancies or not. but apparently to the majority of the court, it might not. i think this argument is interesting because supreme courts seem to be at pains to argue they would still need to be legitimate. and their arguments would be basically they didn't have to listen to the people. they didn't have to reach a decision that was democratically legitimate. instead they could reach a decision they felt was the right one. and i think their ability to do that rests on the fact that republicans led by senator mitch mcconnell had been able to put together control of the supreme court and to enable them to pursue an unpopular minoritarian agenda. >> one of the co-hosts on your podcast, a big fan of ours here is that professor of law melissa murray. she wrote a piece on "the washington post" titled
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sotomayor saw she couldn't sway her colleagues so she talked to us instead. she writes that the justice switched gears and aimed her rhetoric at the public planting seeds for mobilization. what did you make of justice sotomayor's speech? what did you take away how she approached this case and how she wants society to react to it? >> i think justice sotomayor really pointedly focused on two important points. one is the real effects on real peoples lives. so in mississippi specifically it is 75 times more dangerous for women to have -- to undergo childbirth than it is for them to have a previability abortion. so justice sotomayor kept pressing the mississippi solicitor-general where does the health of the woman enter into your analysis? and another point she was everyone sazing the harm to the legitimacy of the supreme court, if the court were to overrule precedent, take away a fundamental rights of americans
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and do so in a way that its decision would be unsupported by the vast majority of the american public. she questioned whether the institution of the supreme court could survive the stench that would result if the people came to think that the court's interpretation of the constitution was nothing more than a political act. >> yeah. and it seems -- it's incredible when i look back at the president at the time president trump saying he was going to appoint pro-life justices and using that as a litmus test and where we are now, that you cannot already say that we are seeing a political court here. thank you so much for joining us this evening. i greatly appreciate your analysis on this. and just a few minutes ago we were laying out the reality of a post-roe america. so how will abortion rights advocates adapt if roe is overturned? who better to discuss this than cecile richards. the cochair of american bridge, a progressive research association, of course she's the former president of planned parenthood. cecile, it's great to have you with us. thank you so much for joining us. first, i want to get your
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reaction to those arguments on wednesday. did anything the justices say shock you? >> well, i mean, the whole proceeding, yes, i think was shocking in that there were four justices who had gotten onto the bench pledging to respect president -- pledging to actually -- who said they understood that roe was the law of the land. they clearly took a completely different tact. i think the suggestion that was referenced earlier by justice barrett, of course, who was put on the court in the very last minute, right before an election in which donald trump was defeated. her suggestion that somehow women should be forced to carry all pregnancies to term regardless of the circumstances because they could simply give their child up under these safe haven laws i think was probably
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the most disturbing and most offensive thing that was said. but i also want to -- you asked early -- you're saying what the solicitor-general of mississippi said, too. and one thing i want to point out he said the people should decide. and actually one of the great ironies, which he may not even know, when an abortion ban was put on the ballot in the state of mississippi, the voters overwhelmingly defeated it. so it is important that the people have their say, but, unfortunately, i think the republicans now want this to be government making decisions for private individuals about their pregnancy. and there could be no personal important right that people have. >> yeah. and we're going to actually spend a little bit of time talking about that later on in the program, just whether or not democracy and the will of the majority is being reflected through the supreme court, through the nomination process, through the confirmation process and ultimately through the decision making process. and we're going to argue that it's not very democratic the way the system currently is
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operating when you're talking about half of our population. but i want to play for you something that justice roberts had to say about this issue of viability. listen. >> the thing that is at issue before us today is 15 weeks. that's not a dramatic departure from viability. why is 15 weeks not enough time? >> so some have viewed this as the, quote, moderate roberts floating a compromise here. but even if this is the best case scenario, how will a 15-week cut off impact people trying to seek an abortion? >> i mean, as was said in the argument it has all kinds of impacts because the decision about a pregnancy is such a personal one. it's one that a woman has to be able to make with her doctor, her medical provider. justice roberts has never been pregnant. i don't think he can -- i don't
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think he has any way of knowing the complexity of these issues that women face. and that's why it's important that women make their decisions about pregnancy not government. it was really sort of an extraordinary moment. and i would also point out as has been said by others, there was no rationale for that. and in fact, there was really no rationale for anyone -- as justice sotomayor said, nothing has changed in 50 years since roe was decided. women still need access to safe and legal abortion. women need their fundamental rights. the american public, 80% of the american people believe this is a right that pregnant people and women should have. the only thing that's changed is politics. and there was really no rationale that any of the justices could give of why they would take away this fundamental right that women had for now nearly 50 years. >> yeah, i think it's the politics that has changed. and we know what this politics and this political decision means for the republican base that led to these appointees.
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and the sad reality is, cecile, we kind of have an off ring into how a near total abortion ban will look like because of what we're seeing play out in texas. you have people with the ability and means to do so traveling across state lines. and unfortunately those unable are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. next year it's very likely this won't just be a texas problem. how will abortion providers have to adapt to make sure women aren't left behind if in fact roe v. wade is overturned? >> i'm so glad you raised texas because anyone who thinks this supreme court, they're only deciding about mississippi, we have had this ban, a six-week abortion ban that has been in effect in texas now for nearly -- actually now more than three months. that means millions and millions of women lost their rights overnight. and of course the inability to access safe and legal abortion
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is disproportionately falling on young women, people in rural areas, women of color, women with low incomes. and as a result of the mississippi case, and i know you showed the map earlier, it's so important to know this is not just about mississippi and texas. this is actually about 26 states that are poised to have a total ban on abortion or a partial ban on abortion. that is really frightening. this is coming to a state near you. so this is an issue that everyone in this country should care about. abortion providers and doctors are doing their very best to care for their patients, but it is impossible when politics is put ahead of the well-being of the women that they take care of. >> yeah, and we're going to talk about whether or not democrats can actually seize on this politically and mobilize people to know what's at stake in the mid-terms and going forward. cecile richards, i know it's a busy week for for you. thank you so much for spending some of your saturday evening with us. still ahead, stoking the flames of fear.
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a federal judge is describing the actions of donald trump and others as key drivers of the violence on january 6th. plus, in tonight's edition of that's what they said, a state senator from michigan doesn't mince her words in the wake of this week's deadly school shooting that hit far too close to home. you're going to hear a part of her speech, and then you're going to hear from her live. she joins me in a few minutes. don't go anywhere. (vo) for fourteen years, subaru and our retailers have been sharing the love with those who need it most. now subaru is the largest automotive donor to make-a-wish and meals on wheels. and the largest corporate donor to the aspca and national park foundation.
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the house select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection announced yesterday that testimony from former doj official jeffrey clark has been moved to december 16th. clark, of course, had been scheduled to testify today, but that was postponed after he informed the committee of a medical condition. clark and his legal team announced earlier in the week that he will plead the fifth to their questions. but if he does not show up in person to plead the fifth, he could be held in contempt of
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congress following a unanimous vote by the committee on wednesday. meanwhile, the people who actually stormed the capitol that day continue to work their way through the legal system. we got a lot to talk about both today and in the weeks to come. we are kicking off a new series here at ayman called "american radical." each week we're going to focus on the key players of january 6th and what led to their radicalization. it's in conjunction with my new podcast series "american radical" which launches this sunday. joining me now is scott mcfarland, an investigative reporter for nbc 4 washington. scott, it's good to see you, my friend. let's start first with the news about the former doj official, jeffrey clark. he say one of trump's top allies in the justice department at the time of the insurrection. do you expect him to be the second person after steve bannon to be held in contempt for not answering january 6th committee's questions? >> if there's going to be a
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second person, ayman, it looks like it would be jeffrey clark. charged by the u.s. attorney of d.c. for contempt of congress, which is by the way, a particularly rare charge by the u.s. government and in the u.s. district courthouse for d.c. it happens in an 11th hour postpone want. we were ready stake out the federal house building today. but jeffrey clark is without equivocation a pivotal figure, an active u.s. justice department official, a high ranking one on that day, on january 6th. in the hours that led up to it he's right in the wheel house of what the january 6th committee was created for and looking at. >> scott, i know you've also been reporting that dozens of january 6th rioters are being held in d.c. jail as they await sentencing and that there's actually interestingly enough here radicalization that's going on in that wing. i'm really fascinated by this. tell me more about that reporting and how it might be a
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problem going forward. >> this is our exclusive reporting for you tonight, ayman. as of tonight 40 of the 675 u.s. capitol riot defendants are in pretrial detention in the washington, d.c., jail. that's the jail complex just down the road from the u.s. capitol. 40 of them in the same wing. they've segregated them from the general population. the inmates call it the patriot wing. it's known by the staff and by d.c. officials as the january 6th wing. we've had a number of defendants former defense lawyers argue that's not the best idea to have everybody together. one defendant said he's worried he's going to become radicalized by being in that wing. you've had others say it's just not a good place to go to have people change their minds or get off the topic of january 6th as a singular focus because they are together in a singular way. >> incredible reporting there,
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scott. let's talk about russell peterson for a moment. judge amy berman jackson just sentenced him to one month behind bars in part for social media posts he made on january 6th. what can you tell us about his actions on that day? and what specifically in his social media posts reveal about his attitudes at the time? >> so russell peterson, is an interesting and provocative case, ayman. even though he's one of these defendants who pleaded guilty to a low level misdemeanor and faced jail sentences that were measured in days or weeks, not months and years. russell peterson is accused of not only saying things on social media, prosecutors argued indicated he was bragging about january 6th or proud of january 6th, it was something else that really stood out that caused us to make big notes in the margins of our notebooks. russell peterson's defense lawyers were making the argument among other things it was really that white house ellipse rally
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that helped inspire or played a role in contributing to the chaos of january 6th. and the judge hit back hard, ayman, though, saying donald trump may have stoked january 6th. the rally may be partly to blame, but she doesn't want to hear about donald trump at sentencing as defendants ask for leniency. in her words, ayman, you are all adults. you are responsible for what you did. >> no, absolutely. that's a very interesting point to make a distinction on, the individual responsibility of all these rioters. scott, let's just stay on this for a second because she could have sentenced him up to six months. judge berman jackson could have sentenced him up to six months but she didn't because as you previously stated she felt he expressed remorse for his actions. i can't help but note that on january 6th while he was in the capitol, peterson was wearing a shirt that said eff your feelings. the irony is off the charts here, isn't it? >> by the way, that is not the
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highest tier of vulgarity we've seen in charging documents or in the attire from january 6th. but the judge is really making that argument more broadly. the judge is saying we're not going to listen to pleas for leniency from people who are trying to point their fingers at donald trump or politicians. defendants are there for what they did that day. that was the broader take away this week, ayman. i'll tell you what, when we get down to the higher level defendants, those accused of conspiracy, of assaulting police, of violence, let's see what they say and if judges kick back even harder in the higher tier cases. >> listen, i couldn't think of a better person to kick off our american radical series. thank you so much for your excellent reporting and keeping the spotlight on what happened january 6th. don't forget tomorrow listen to the first episode of msnbc's newest original podcast "american radical." it is hosted by me, and it is a story that hits very close to home for me.
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just days after the january 6th riot at the capitol i learned that a woman who died there, roseanne boyland, was actually from my hometown. and in this new podcast i return to kennesaw, georgia, to explore how roseanne became a foot soldier in one of america's biggest movements. listen to the trailer and follow "american radical" wherever you get your podcasts. episode 1 drops tomorrow, folks. coming up, the supreme court's anticipated decision to scale back abortion rights is expected to play a big part in the 2022 mid-terms. but will democrats use this to their advantage to fire up voters? and later, what you need to know about that at-home covid test and how the omicron variant plays into them as you make your plans for the holidays. deserve the best? eggland's best eggs. classic, cage free, and organic. more delicious, farm-fresh taste.
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all right, so this week's high profile abortion hearing left court watchers convinced the supreme court will likely overturn roe v. wade next summer. if they do that, reports suggest some republicans fear a backlash at the polls while democrats insist they would use the case to animate voters ahead of next year's mid-term elections. but would republicans actually pay a political price? and to be quite honest, i'm not so sure. just look at the strange case of republican senator susan collins of maine. she's someone who supports abortion rights, and just this week she said she supports codifying roe's protections into law. but let's flashback to the summer of 2018. then-president donald trump nominated brett kavanaugh. collins recounted a private conversation she had with him where kavanaugh assured her that roe was, quote, settled law. listen to what she said at the time.
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>> his views on honoring precedent would preclude attempts to do by stealth that which one has committed not to do overtly. he said decisions become part of our legal framework with the passage of time and that honoring precedent is essential to maintaining public confidence. >> so collins cast a key vote at the time in favor of kavanaugh. and he was narrowly confirmed in large part due to her support. despite that vote she was elected to a fifth term, and she won't face voters again until 2026. this week justice kavanaugh heard arguments in the abortion case, and to the surprise of no one, really no one, kavanaugh sounded nothing like the justice senator collins described in 2018. he listed more than six major decisions in which the court had reversed previous positions including groundbreaking decisions about gay rights and school desegregation. how did senator collins respond?
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listen to this exchange she had with a reporter on friday. >> senator collins, do you still believe that kavanaugh sees roe as settled law following yesterday's remarks at the supreme court? >> you know, i think we all need to wait and see what the final decision is. >> all right, so senator collins paid no political price for supporting brett kavanaugh. and i'm not convinced quite honestly that republicans would pay a price if he and his conservative allies overturn roe versus wade. we're joined by the editor at large at the daily beast. molly, it's good to have you with us again on the show. if roe is overturned, tell me if i'm wrong here, do you think republicans would actually pay a price? or would they also be able to animate their base by saying, look, we promised we would do it, we did it? >> again, this is a problem with democrats, right?
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democrats tend not to focus on messaging, focus on reminding voters what's really going on. and i think this is a good example of that, right? we have a -- you know, those three conservative trumpy justices were pushed in -- the last one, amy barrett, was put in eight days when people were still actually voting. you know, people had started already voting. so i would say these three conservative justices all said that they fought roe was settled law. and all three of them said things during this hearing that made it sound like they were pretty much ready to overturn roe. i think if democrats are smart and message on this and explain what the stakes are -- a lot of us are young enough we weren't alive in 1973. but in 1973 women died. i mean, it was like a major cause of death for women with
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these infections from illegal abortions. and we'll go back to that because as you and i both know people don't stop having abortions. they just stop having safe abortions. >> who do you think in this case lied? susan collins said it was settled law and justice kavanaugh lied to her, and then he's coming -- and the reason i ask that is this. donald trump said he was going to nominate pro-life justices, right? he would not have done that if he did not know in his heart of hearts that these justices were in fact, anti-abortion justices. so for me it was obvious from day one with the nominations they would have not gotten nominated if they didn't meet the threshold that the president said was important for him and his political base. why did people fall for susan collins saying justice kavanaugh said it was settled law? did justice kavanaugh say something to her, do you think? did he lie to her, or did she lie to us? or who's lying to who here?
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>> right. it's impossible -- it's the great republican question, who is lying? it's impossible to know. i do think that's right, and people believe what they want to believe. but you did see with each one of these nominated conservative justices, there were these, you know, anti-choice activists came up and said these are great choices. you know, there were a lot of susan b. anthony anti-choice woman was thrilled. i mean, paul ryan said this justice will protect life. so there was a lot of -- you know, there were signs along the way that -- this was one of the few times trump was keeping his promise to overturn roe. it's so ironic because just a decade before trump would say i'm the most pro-life guy there is. i mean, pro-choice guy there is. so it is a completely ironic thing. but i do think from what i heard
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in those oral arguments it is pretty clear that i mean amy barrett said why do you need abortion if you can just have adoption? it's pretty clear where this was headed. >> listen, speaking of kind of outrageous comments made on this subject, one of the tortured arguments in favor of overturning roe came from the controversial north carolina freshman congressman madison cawthorne who compared abortions to the development of polaroid pictures. watch this. >> imagine you just walk out of this chamber and outside a gorgeous sunset. you have a polaroid camera and you snap a beautiful picture and a great photo comes out the front. you hold it and wait for the picture to appear. suddenly someone walks by and snatches your photo, ripping it to shreds. you're stunned. you cry why did you destroy my picture. the person replies, oh, it wasn't a picture. it wasn't fully developed yet. >> we actually -- we don't want
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to play the whole totality of his comments. he later went onto make a confusing reference to earthen vessels sanctified by all mighty god in reference to women, i guess. i quite honestly don't know what he was trying to say there other than analogy he was trying to make about polaroids. what in the world do you make of cawthorne's arguments there? >> we all know that these -- are smaller than a polaroid. they're smaller than your fingernail we're talking about here. conservative men are very upset about this. they feel very passionately that anything fertilized is life. i mean, i think it's pretty -- a lot of scientists would disagree. a lot of doctors would disagree. and we've had this right for 50 years. but they're very hot to get rid
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of it, and it's hard to see how this isn't about power more than anything, and especially when it comes -- you know, you just see with these -- with the texas law and, you know, six weeks is a really small window. and we've already seen that these women can't get abortions in texas. so i'm really worried about where this goes, and it's really scary. >> i was going to say as a lot of people have pointed out over this past week republicans seem to care about those before they are born. once a child is born they seem to not care about children anymore and the safety of schools and all the other problems our society is dealing with. the irony is not lost on a lot of people. thank you, molly, for joining us this evening. greatly appreciate it. coming up in our next hour, the supreme court has become the most powerful branch of government arguably. and with abortion rights on the chopping block, where does that leave other hot button issues like voting rights and same sex marriage? in this week's "that's what they said," after a recent shooting in michigan, a state
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in tonight's edition of "that's what they said," we have a michigan senator after another school shooting deeply impacted her state and this country. she had a very clear message for her republican colleagues. watch. >> children are killing children, and instead of addressing the root cause we have been training children on drills to make themselves less likely to be killed. i'm not going to stand up here today to ask you to do something because you've already made that choice. but if you're not going to do anything, then get out of the way so that some of us can at the very least try. >> coming up, state senator mcmorrow will join me and talk about what she's planning on next trying to do to stop this from happening again. stick around.
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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ this week's tragedy, again, unfortunately, struck an american school. it was in michigan. four students killed allegedly by their 15-year-old classmate who used a gun that prosecutors said was purchased for him by his father. now, while the facts in the case are still coming in, the time line shows a series of missed warning signs. and it is really heart breaking to read. four days before this shooting the suspect's father took him to
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buy the gun allegedly used in the shooting as a christmas present. the next day his mother posted that she took him to test the christmas present. the day after the shooting when the mother was contacted by the school after he was seen searching for ammunition on his phone, she texted her son, "lol, i'm not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught." the morning of the shooting, a teacher found a note on the suspect's desk with a drawing of a handgun, a bloody body, and the words "the thoughts won't stop, help me." the suspect was removed from class. his parents were summoned and shown the drawing. they allegedly resisted removing him from school, so he returned to class. the shooting began hours later. now, the prosecutor in the case made the extremely rare decision to charge the parents, and after a manhunt that involved the u.s. marshal service, the parents were found hiding had a detroit warehouse early this morning. both were arrested and face four counts each of involuntary
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manslaughter. on thursday, democratic michigan state senator mallory mcmorrow gave a passionate speech during which she exkoshuated her republican colleagues for their refusal to address gun violence. she joins me now, welcome, and i hate to be speaking to you about such a tragedy in your constituency and community. i understand that one of your constituents actually works at the school. how is your community doing today? >> it is really hard. there are a number of members of my community, you know, my district is the one right next to oxford, so a lot of teachers, a lot of family members, a lot of people knew these kids and had a meeting this morning with one of the teachers who lost one of her own students, and it is endlessly heartbreaking. >> you know, one of the reasons i wanted to have this conversation with you is that after so many similar tragedies in the past, you know, when
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people demand stricter gun laws in this country, we're told that new laws are not necessary, that the systems are actually in place to keep kids safe. and in michigan, even if you accept tha those systems were in place, this tragedy still happened. he literally was asking for help. there were school protocols that the school apparently or seemingly followed in notifying the parents. the gun was purchased legally we understand so far, and again, all the details will continue to come out. doesn't this prove that we need stricter gun laws? that even when protocols are followed at the school, when someone detecting early warning signs and notified parents, something like this can still happen. >> absolutely. columbine happened 22 years ago, and the reason that i stood up in the senate this week to demand that we take action was in response to the senate majority leader, republican senator mike sherke who the day after shooting when asked if we
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were going to do anything said, no, that we weren't. that if we were try to mitigate risks we would turn into a country that we don't recognize. i'm sorry, i'm pretty sure a country where this doesn't happen regularly is one that a lot of people in my community would prefer to recognize. >> i know that you mentioned that after a tragedy, you know, we are regularly told that now is not the time to talk about policy change or, quote, push an agenda as some republicans like to say. as you asked, if not now then when, and i know a lot of people asked that same question. how do you explain the lack of action? is it simply the strength of the pro-gun lobby that has paralyzed politicians from actually acting? >> i think it is. you know, you saw a hard right turn in the nra in the wake of the columbine shooting and even just recently we're hearing tapes for the first time about nra officials responding to that shooting and fear is an incredibly powerful marketing tool. you know, i remember my stepdad
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was an nra magazine and growing up in my house and it was about hunting and gun safety. it was much simpler than constantly convincing you that r your rights are under attack, that somebody is coming for your guns, and that is an incredibly powerful motivator, not only as a lobby in the organization but for people who demand every time we ask for gun safety measures start screaming about freedom and that you cannot come for the second amendment. >> and as i noted in my earlier segment, you have told those that do not want to help get out of the way, what would you like to see happen legislatively in both your state of michigan and the country? what will it take to actually get something done if your republican colleagues, which all seems to suggest they are not going to meet you at the table to try to figure something out. >> yeah, we have introduced dozens of bills over the past number of years regarding safe storage requiring that a parent,
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if you purchase a firearm and you have a minor at home that that weapon is secured and that you are held liable if something happens because, yes, this is a tragic incident, but we also see accidental shootings. we had a shooting in my district on thanksgiving of a young man who shot his mom in a car on the way home from thanksgiving dinner. this is -- it's constant, and extreme risk protection orders, red flag laws that would give a judge and law enforcement a tool to temporarily confiscate firearms from somebody who's deemed an immediate risk to themselves or others. these are all wildly popular ideas that have, you know, 80, 90% approval ratings that people are asking for, that we can't even get a hearing on let alone push through and pass through law. >> heartbreaking to see nothing getting done. hopefully this time it will change. michigan state senator mallory mcmorrow, thank you so much for joining us. it's hard to not lose hope as we talk about yet another
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school shooting as the immense grief seeps into another community as we just talked there. but in times of confusion, anger, and deep sadness you also somehow see the best of humanity. take a look at this photo, it's a massive crowd gathered outside a hospital in oxford county, michigan. that's because one of the four teenagers who died this week who was killed this week, justin shilling was an organ donor, and yesterday when his body was moved for surgery, friends and neighbors and colleagues wanted justin's family to know that they were seen, that they were not alone, so they all stood outside in the cold to show them love and support. and it's a good reminder for us, all of us, that sometimes a simple gesture can mean the world to someone when they need it the most. we'll be right back. eed it the most. we'll be right back. for chest, . it goes on clear. no mess just soothing comfort. try new vicks vapostick.
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welcome back, everyone. still so much to get to tonight: we're going to dig into how the supreme court became the most powerful branch of government despite representing a minority of the american public. and why are two nfl players who are both unvaccinated and not complying with protocols given two very different punishments? we're going to take a look beyond the headlines. plus, have you looked at your spotify rat and everyone else's yet? i sure have seen a ton of this over the past couple of days. my saturday night panel is ready to share their artists of the year. it is a big reveal, folks. you don't want to miss it, i'm ayma

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