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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  December 3, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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my wife and i have been married 52 years. we were a teenage pregnancy as i describe and the fact is, that my learning curve is the learning kerve that the evangelicals have refused to take. they are not pro-life. they are anti-women. >> indeed. i wish we had more time. thank you so much and thank you for writing that apology. we appreciate you. that's tonight's reid out. tonight on "all in." >> a teacher observed ethan searching ammunition on his cell phone during class. >> jaw dropping allegations in the michigan school shooting. >> jennifer crumbly exchanged messages statsing, quote, lol, i'm not mad at you. you have to learn not to get caught. >> tonight why both parents are
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being charged with manslaughter and the author of the coup memo bleeds the fifth. you know what was trending on the internet. where's ruby because they thought you'd be in jail. >> the new lawsuit from election workers suing after becoming a target of right wing media and what we know about what happened many first week of the ghislaine maxwell trial when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. a lot going on right now at this moment and today when there was a remarkable announcement out of oakland county michigan. that's the site of the latest school shooting in america. the 29th this year, as best as we can tell. the shooter, 15-year-old ethan is in police custody after killing 16-year-old tate meyer, 17-year-old madison baldwin.
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14-year-old hannah and 17-year-old justin schilling and wounding 7 more people. three of whom are still in the hospital tonight. today, in a ground breaking move, prosecutors charged the shooter's parents for their alleged role in the massacre. shooters father, jason crumbly purchased the murder weapon for his son days before the shooting. in a press conference this afternoon, the prosecutor laid out some of the evidence against the couple. i want to play you what she said. it's a very long piece of sound but the details are truly stunning. take a listen. >> on november 2 1st, a teacher at the oxford high school observed ethan searching ammunition on his cell phone during class and reported the same to school officials. thereafter jennifer exchange text messages about the incident with her son on that day
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stating, quote, lol, i'm not mad at you. you have to learn not to get caught. end quote. on november 30th, '21, the morning of the shooting, next day. evan's teacher came upon a note on ethan's desk that alarmed her to the point she took a picture of it on her cell phone. the note contained the following. a draug of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at words, quote, the thoughts won't stop. help me. end quote. in another section was a drawing of a bullet with the following word above, blood ever where. end quote. between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot and pleading. below that figure is drawing of laughing emoji. further down are the words my life is useless, end quote and to the right of that are the words, quote, the world is dead. end quote. as a result, james and jennifer
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crumbley were summon tods the school. both james and jennifer failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located. james and jennifer left the high school without their son. he was returned to the classroom. when the news of the active shooter had opinion made public, jennifer crumbley texted to her son at 1:22 p.m., quote, ethan, don't do it. end quote. at 1:37 p.m., james crumblerks y called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house and he believed his son may be shooter. >> so, if you caught all that, the parents were warned that their son was demonstrating concerning behavior. the most concerning imaginable, including the second time the morning of the shooting with the
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drawing with the bullet and plood that said help me and they were called into the school. they didn't act and no one else did either. they didn't inquire as to whether the son brought the semiautomatic handgun they purchased be these are the facts as the prosecutor laid them out. the couple are being charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter manslaughter each. they fled their home which may explain why they appeared early year this week by zoom from their vehicle. right now as i spoke do you there's an fbi man hunt for the couple. they missed their arrangements and the couple is still at large. while the specific facts alleged here are some of the most egregious i've ever encountered in reporting on these stories which has opinion way too common. it's also the case it's not uncommon at all for school shooters to obtain their guns from family members. every town for gun safety report, evidence suggests that most school shooters ob tine
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from family and friends. they be able to identify the gun source in 45% of incidents that involve shooters under 18 years old. a total of 126. most of these, 74% obtain the gun from their home or homes of relatives or friends. it's not that surprising to finding. the logic makes sense. many are too young to purchase weapons themselves so they take the guns their parents or relatives have laying around or the guns their parents bought for them. as the gun safety group reports 4.6 million minors live in homes with one loaded, unlocked firearm. 4.6 million. an enormous risk to safety completely independent from the spectre of this horror. while 30 states plus d.c. have some sort of books to punish, 20 do not. some of the state laws are modest like georgia law that
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only prevents parents from directly giving the gun to a minor. notably, there are no child access prevention laws a ts the federal level and federal law does not require gun owners to safely store their guns. even something as transparentally sensible as guns should be stored so children can't access them is something that the gun groups and republicans oppose. just this week senator chris murphy, democrat from connecticut, long time supporter of gun safety legislation after 20 elementary school children were slaughtered by gun mesne in his state tried to push forward a common sense gun safety bill in st senate citing the michigan citing for his renewed sense of urgency. >> this only happens in the united states of america. there's no other nation in the high income world in which kids worry about being shot when they go to school. it happens here in america because we choose to let it happen. we're not unlucky.
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this is purposeful. this is a choice made by united states senate to sit on our hands and do nothing while kids die. >> senator then asked for unanimous consent. chuck grassley blocked the request. he tweeted this picture of him enjoying some dessert shortly after. hope it was delicious. back in michigan today though there was a touching moment of solidarity from the community. oakland residents gathered outside the hospital. said when the body of victim justin schilling is an organ donor was moved for surgery, his family can look down and see the support for them. nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster is in oxford. the lawyer said they are not on
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the lam but all indications seem to be they are. what is your understanding from your reporting? >> reporter: our understanding is that the man hunt is still well under way. we did contact the under sheriff of this county and he says that he still has not been in contact with the attorneys of those two parents. the now fugitives as they are being called. we have been receiving a lot of conflicting information throughout the afternoon. initially when we heard the charges were filed around noon, apparently there was some rangement to have the parents turn themselves in by 2:00 p.m. instead by 3:00 p.m., there was a message that went b out to law enforcement to be on the look out for these fugitives. as of last check, they have not turned themselves in despite the attorney saying they are not on the run. they left the state out of concern for their own safety and will be returning back for their arraignment. the arraignment that was scheduled for 4:00 p.m. it involves the fbi and u.s.
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marshals and county sheriff. >> the u.s. marshals tweeting about two hours ago that they were now joining this case and going be looking after to find these individuals. i imagine there's tremendous and profound grief, shock in the community around that high school there and there are still three individual, three victims in the hospital, right? >> reporter: that's exactly right. this evening there's another prayer vigil being held to honor the victims. you mentioned that display with the body of justin schilling as he was being sent off to donate his organs and the crowd that amassed in that area. there's the sense of grief and the sense of frustration from multiple people especially as we got the details from the prosecutor earlier today. you know, the reason why she explained the reason why she was charging these parents is because she says they were the only two individuals who knew
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that there was concern about this 15-year-old, who knew he had depictions of killing people and knew he had the means to do it. he had access to the gun they purchased him. we know about the text that happened in the moments after the shooting became public and hit news. thefection from his mother, according to the prosecutor to this 15-year-old boy that said, don't do it. talking to students and parents that went through this, the texts were are you okay? i love you. be safe. it's a big contrast that you have there especially as we're learn mrg details from the prosecutor. >> thanks so much. i want to bring in chris brown. i've just never encountered a set of alleged facts.
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this is the prosecutor saying this. i don't want to say they are uncontested. i have never encountered anything like this. i just don't know what to make of it. what is your response to hearing what was laid out by that prosecutor today? are we hearing her? i'm sorry. >> sorry. let me start again. >> we have you chris brown. >> so sorry. >> go ahead. >> as a lawyer, yes, mostly as a mother it's hard to hear this recitation of facts and try and square that from the kind of
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america i think that should be one in which we can all ensure safety for our kids in school. clearly, the flags, if we want to call them that, the signs that we had deeply troubled young man and that something should have been done are very real. there will be the right kinds of questions asked about what the school should have done. what other people in society should have done. what the parents clearly should have done. the larger question we have to ask ourselves is why are we permitting a system that asks these questions after a tragic event and doesn't do a lot more to ensure that we don't have easy access to guns. they have no protection law that would have allowed anyone close to this family to raise issues
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and say this young man is at risk and guns in that house should be removed. there's many things we have advanced as a gun violence prevention movement that could have made a difference here and michigan doesn't have any of them which also says we need a federal response to these issues. we need consistency because we have no more mental health issues. we have no more troubled youth in this country than anywhere else. we have a lot more school shootings. we have a lot more deaths and it's because of our lax gun laws. let's fix that. >> i want to read from the washington post reporting on this gift of the gun and talk to you. this was a gift. shortly after his father brought the gun, he posted a photo of it to his instagram page writing just got my nu new beauty today. jennifer captioned a post that read mom and son day testing out
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his new christmas present which karen mcdonald told the post was reference to the gun range. i mean it almost seems insane to have to articulate this principle but it seems crushingly obvious across whatever beliefs people might hold that outside of the strict supervision on a gun range or hunting context that guns should not be in children's hands. full stop. >> yes. that is logical for most people. most parents. i think most gun owners. the problem is, chris, we have this group of gun extremists. the gun lobby has really, for decades, glory glory fied usage. they have opposed minimum age requirements to purchase guns. they have opposed secure firearm
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storage locks and there's deadly consequences to that behavior. the nra tweeted an image of santa claus putting ammunition in his stocking. it's gross. the gun lobby playing a big role in this of our younger generation to be gun extremists or to buy into that culture. i think that's real problem that we need to talk about. also, you mention in the intro that about 4.6 million children live at homes, post covid that number is 5.4 now. we know most school shooters are students. they have easy access and we're talking about so many reactive ways to address this. we need to be pro-active. tomorrow state lawmakers in every state should be talking about how they hold gun owners accountable for the secure storage. it should be the law of the land.
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it's the same logic social media companies have now. it's that young people lock in brand loyalty, very valuable customers. >> they do. they're not held liable in the same way. congress, many years ago passed placa. that's law that prohibits any liability, tries to, to gun manufacturers. not only for the products themselves but also for their markets, for their advertising. this is what has been set up by the nra for 30 plus years.
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part of this is taking away the special protections that this industry was granted by a congress behind the scenes with back doors that do not protect anyone but the bottom line of the industry that they serve. not americans, not mom, not dads, not kids. >> thank you for taking time with me tonight. so far all the witness testimony in the house investigation into the january 6th attack has taken place behind closed doors. now vice chair liz cheney is saying that will change. when can we expect public hearings and who might be called first. i'll talk to adam schiff about the plan, next. machine adam schiff about the plan, next machin and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill,
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- san francisco can have criminal justice reform and public safety. but district attorney chesa boudin is failing on both. - the safety of san francisco is dependent upon chesa being recalled as soon as possible. - i didn't support the newsom recall but this is different. - chesa takes a very radical perspective and approach to criminal justice reform, which is having a negative impact on communities of color. - i never in a million years thought that my son, let alone any six-year-old, would be gunned down in the streets of san francisco and not get any justice. - chesa's failure has resulted in increase in crime against asian americans. - the da's office is in
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complete turmoil at this point. - for chesa boudin to intervene in so many cases is both bad management and dangerous for the city of san francisco. - we are for criminal justice reform. chesa's not it. recall chesa boudin now. . president trump continues to make the same false claims about a stolen election with which he has misled millions of americans. these are the same claims he knows provoked violence in the past. he has recently suggested he wants to debate members of this committee. this committee's investigation into the violent assault on our capitol on january 6th is not game. when this committee convenes hearings, witnesses will be
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called to testify under oath. any communications mr. trump has with this committee will be under oath. if he persists in lying then, he will be accountable under the laws of this great nation and subject to criminal penalties for every false word he speaks. >> maybe donald trump testifying is of course improbable. we know the committee will hold public hearings in 2022. liz cheney made it clear republicans will not be able to avoid the reckoning leads of the crucial mid-term election promising to detil actions that day in vivid color. former department of justice official jeffrey clark, we have been following him a lot. he hashed a plot to carry out a coup will not appear before a deposition. mr. clark has informed the
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select committee of a medical condition. he's provided ample evidence of his claim. chairman thompson agreed to postpone until december 16th. adam schiff, democratic of california investigating the6th attack on the u.s. capitol. he joins me now. what does he do for the first deposition that led to committee to find a resolution to find him in contempt? >> he refused to answer just about any question. he had grab bag of justifications for his refusal to testify. he claimed a variety of privileges. he would not specify as to any particular question what was privileged. in fact, during that deposition, i asked him about a conversation that he acknowledged having with a reporter about january 6th
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that he summarized in one of the letters to the committee and asked him to describe that information. i said what possible privilege could there be that would provide that you could tell a reporter things but you can't tell the committee the same thing. it was frankly flimsy pretextual arguments for us to move to hold him in contempt. >> you held him in contempt at the committee level. that vote has not gone to the full congress. it hangs over him which appeared to be inducement for him to return for another deposition which was to be today and now that has been postponed due to a medical condition. what can you tell us about that? >> look, i don't know what the medical condition is. i haven't discussed it with the staff. if i did i probably wouldn't be say any way.
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the committee is satisfied it's genuine. this is not yet another ruse. given his pattern of spending weeks when we were trying to get his voluntary cooperation, stringing us along, then being subpoenaed and coming in and refusing to testify and then on the eve of holding him in contempt, a new claim that he's going to invoke his fifth amendment right. that was among the many desperate claims that he made when he showed up for the deposition. he never suggested at that time he believed what he said would incriminate him. that's a new defense and we don't know yet what to make of it. >> there's indication he would invoke his fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination and on that note, we have another individual who appears to be set to invoke that. that would be john eastman. he's a lawyer and adviser to donald trump spoke at the rally on the morning of january 6th and wrote the coup memos that
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laid out a kind of procedure by which the mechanics of the vote counting that day on january 6th could be hijacked at first of mike pence and others to bestow the presidency on donald trump. the letter says he asserts his fifth amendment right not to be a witness against himself in response to your subpoena. what do you make of that? >> he seems to be following mr. clark's example. he can assert a fifth amendment privilege. we have a great many questions for him. some of those may implicate no fifth amendment concern. no factual basis for that. we will have to see when he comes in whether there is a good faith basis to assert the fifth or whether he makes it clear even as to questions there's no
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potential fifth amendment privilege that he still intends to refuse to answer questions. with each of these witnesses we'll have to evaluate them when they come in. mark meadows has this look out now where he describes conversations with the president about january 6th. if he did that, he must have the president's permission to discussion those communications because he's been saying they are all covered by executive privilege. if the president waived it to write it in a book, he cannot assert it to the same matters. >> on eastman and clark, inside a courtroom jurors are instructed not to claw conclusions about guilt or innocence from the absence of a defendant on the witness stand. as it should be. that doesn't apply to how people think about people in public life and what they are doing. i'll just say, i didn't think that john eastman, as far as the facts i.edu was anything
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criminally liable. i thought what he did was toxic to american democracy. it's something of a development for him to invoke the fifth suggesting he believes there might be criminal exposure. >> it is extraordinary. what i find even more extraordinary is you have someone in clark who at the senior most levels of the justice department. the department of justice for crying out loud, who is saying e can't answer questions because it may implicate me in criminal activity. i spent almost six years in the department of justice, that just takes my breath away. >> congressman adam schiff, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you, chris. coming up, two georgia elections workers face threats and harassment after being targeted in pro-trump voter fraud conspiracy theories a and now they are fighting back. their lawsuit, after this. fighk their lawsuit, after this. needs, plop plop fizz fizz. alka seltzer plus cold relief. dissolves quickly. instantly ready to start working. so you can bounce back fast with alka-seltzer plus.
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county election office. her job was to handle voting applications and process votes. this past year her mother, ruby freeman signed up for a temp job to help count ballots in november election. they needed a lot of extra workers. even though the georgia election was audited three times, found to have no fraud, that did not stop the conspiracy theories directed at those two. in december of last year, this mother/daughter pair became the subject of a slew of false stories published in the pro-trump conspiracy website gateway pundit. those stories made their way to donald trump's lawyer who identified them in testimony before georgia state lawmakers. >> how can they say there's no fraud. look at that woman. look at her taking the ballots out. look at them scurrying around with the ballots. they look like they are passing out dope. not just ballots. it's quite clear they are
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stealing votes. >> that's an incredible basic cuelation to level. it's quite clear they are stealing votes. he identified both women in the hearing by name. they want to debunk the false claims about the women. it did not stop there. on january 2nd when donald trump made the call asking him to fine 11,779 votes, trump brought up ruby freeman by name. >> you know what's trending on the internet, where's ruby because they thought she would be in jail. it's crazy. it's crazy. that was the minimum number is 18,000 for ruby. they think it's probably about 56,000 but the minimum number is 18,000 on the ruby freeman night when she ran back in there. she stuffed the ballot boxes. let's face it. they did it in slow motion
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replay magnified. she stuffed the ballot boxes. they were stuffed like nobody's ever seen them stuffed before. >> again, false. completely false. three different audits. digital audits, hand audits of the results. 18 times the then president of the united states named this individual, random woman, ruby freeman. what do you think happens when someone like that gets set up to be the target by the right wing press? what do you think happens? freeman went onto make a series of 911 emergency calls saying she got a flood of threats saying it's scary because they are saying stuff like we're coming to get you. we're coming to get you. people even showed up banging on her door. trump supporters threated her teenage son by phone in tirades raced with racial slurs. moss who is known for her plond braids changed her appearance,
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avoided going out to public. freeman quit her job and moss took time off. now the two of them are suing the publication gateway pun yn dit for defamation. in a statement freeman said i want them to know my daughter and i are real people and never want them to do this to anyone else. it's sort of a remarkable set of facts before us here. what sort the theory of the lawsuit? >> it's a defamation lawsuit. i'm not lawyer but my understanding is they were not public figures. they were people that were plucked out of a 17 hour surveillance tape by president trump's lawyers that someplaced
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snippets out to suggest something nefarious was happening. the georgia election authority corrected them and said nothing wrong happened and the two women done nothing wrong. that did not stop the gateway pundit and others in the right wing misinformation universe from publicly accusing them of all manner of voter fraud. up to and including the president of the united states. >> that point about, i think in terms of the way the defamation law works and i think as a reporter, yourself an myself, we want strong protections against frivolous defamation lawsuits, believe in first amendment, believe it's important to protect the first amendment as a general policy matter but in terms of the law, it does make a big difference. you're talking about a public person, the president of the yiet, georgia election official and a person who is not. these people were plainly not. here is what it sounds like when they become public figures via this being published.
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here is a december 6th, 2020 call to 911 obtained by reuters of freeman. take a listen. >> last night about ten minutes after 9:00, somebody was bamming on the door and now somebody is bamming on the door again. they screaming. they're still bamming on the door. >> okay. >> they're still bamming on the door. lord jesus, where is the police? >> real repercussions for these people. >> there were. they had to vacate their home. were advised by the fbi to vacate their home. there was so many pro-trump advocates surrounding their home, banging on the door, having pizzas delivered to them that they had to move elsewhere and it really has been a major disruption in their lives over
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the course of the last year since the election and since they were falsely accused by the gateway pundit and others of election fraud. it really shows the real world implications of some of these false accusations that we saw from the right about the elections afterwards. what's remarkable is it's one of the first instances of sort of a regular person suing to try to get to have some recriminations for the false claims of election fraud. there's been a couple of high profile instances of the voting machine companies suing the right wing media over this but there haven't been many instances of the regular people, election workers trying to have some sort of -- be made whole for the trouble they were put through by the right wing media.
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>> because of the way these conspiracy theories were floated, they would be abstract and specific and funnel around. here is this piece of video from the place. at one point one of the deputies come out to say like have you no decency. this is crazy. these people are being houndsed and harassed. this is happening in realtime and to confirm what you said, this is from the lawsuit. the level of harassment she receive led the fbi to conclude she would not be safe in her home. on january 6th, a crowd surrounded her house. some on foot, some in vehicles. other equipped with a bull horn. miss freeman had followed the fbi's advice and temporarily relocated from her home. she was not able to return for two months. finally, this was some of the most egregious example of this but there were lots of reporting that poll workers and officials have faced similar. >> there are.
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there's a lawsuit out of erie, pennsylvania. a postal workers there who was falsely accused and had his name sort of dragged through similar situation is suing project and there's other instances that we'll likely see come through the legal system in the next few weeks and months of people who are similarly disparaged just for doing their job as election workers during last year's election. >> thank you so much. really appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. still to come, the first week in the trial of jeffrey epstein's right hand woman comes to a close. what we learned from witness testimony, just ahead. e leard ns testimony, just ahead. i'm steven, i'm 52, and i'm a makeup artist. i met my husband in 2002. ♪ i miss those eyes. do you think you could fall in love again? i'm so ready, you know?
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prisons in the mental and physical health for those incarcerated and those who work inside the prison. many people got sick, many people died. meanwhile the justice system froze if place and the population people were already segregated from society became more isolated. the marshal project already launched a lifeline. a magazine called news inside specifically published for people incarcerate and distributed free of charge. in week on my podcast, why is this happening, i had the chance to talk to the publications creator. man who spent 27 years from prison and launched this publication less than a year after making parole with the mission to help. >> we recently published the story called your zoom interrogation is about to begin. we went into the history of interrogations that went wrong and supreme court decisions on
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what techniques detectives and police officers can no longer use. i got a letter from someone who is incarcerated who said, wow, this piece was very valuable to me because i'm in incarcerated and i have just that issue that i'm litigatinged in of a court now. i can't pay for a lawyer so i have to litigate on my own. i'm using sections of that article to bolster my argument on how i was unfairly interrogated. >> really a captivating figure. his conviction at 17 and getting out 27 years later. the programs he launched while serving time. don't forget to subscribe don't go anywhere. everything you need to know about what happened to the trial of ghislaine maxwell this week. lain. financial picture.
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from being a totally apolitical person to dying tor trump. >> american radical. a new msnbc original podcast coming sunday, follow new.
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the reason that we are not witnessing a block buster trial of billionaire jeffrey epstein charged with trafficking dozens of girls some as young as 14 and engaging in sex acts with them is because he died by hanging in prison under the watch of the trump justice department. so i understand we get the trial of epstein as right hand woman, ghislaine maxwell charged with sex trafficking and conspiracy. she has denied all charges against her. her trial just started this week and so far there have been some big headlines about what exactly she and epstein were doing including from a victim who testified at great length about what she said, maxville grooming her for sex with epstein starting at age 149. she said maxwell participated in some sexual abuse. interestingly, donald trump's name has come up multiple times throughout the week, including from jeffrey epstein former pilot who testified trump was among epstein's famous
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passengers. and a victim who testified wednesday that epstein took her to meet donald trump when she was just 14. now i should be clear none of the witnesses have alleged wrongdoing by trump in the contexts. trump kplams he and ep sfeen had a falling out of course prior to they were known to party together seen here at mar-a-lago in 1992. ogling women in front of nbc cameras. in 2002 trump told new york magazine quote i've known jeff 15 years. terrific guy a lot of fun to be with. he even said he likes beautiful women as much as i do and many on the younger side. trump knew ghislaine maxwell. here are the trumps. epstein and in mar-a-lago. epstein dead and trump at the white house, the president was asked about the arrest and gave a perplexing response. >> i just wish her well, frankly. i've met her numerous times over the years since i lived in palm beach. i guess they lived in palm
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beach. i wish her well, whatever it is. >> whatever it is. investigative reporter take your word is the chasing ghislaine, streaming a documentary and discovery plus. been in the courtroom every day of the trial and joins me now. i guess first start with your big take aways from the first week of testimony vikki as one in the courtroom every day. >> chris i think the real shocking story of the week is the that the defense for ghislaine maxwell has really effectively knocked down the testimony from the government's main witnesses. you know, as you rately pointed out, jane, the pseudonym for accuseder number one, whose testimony was really shocking about being abused for many years by jeffrey epstein and so she said with ghislaine maxwell
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in the room, from the age of 14, was then, you know, the -- the defense really poked a lot of holes at that in their cross-examination by bringing up notes from interviews, the fbi had taken in the last two years with in accuser be, which directly contradicted what she said about ghislaine maxwell being in the room and directly contradicted what she said about ghislaine maxwell participating in any of the abuse. we saw the same thing this morning with the cross-examination of the butler, who yesterday really talked about the fact that ghislaine maxwell was quote unquote the lady of the house, she and jeffrey epstein shared a bedroom. and again talked about the fact that ghislaine maxwell he had
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seen phoning -- consorting with and traveling with two underage girls, one of them was jane, he said. but this morning the cross-examination pointed out that he was a liar. he had under oath four years ago given testimony admitting that he had stolen money from jeffrey epstein not once but twice which contradicted his testimony in court yesterday where he said he had only stolen money from jeffrey epstein once. so the credibility of the government witnesses is really coming under fire, quite effectively from ghislaine maxwell's defense. i think a lot of journalists in the courtroom are quite surprised by this. >> hmp. yeah, i mean in the case -- in the case of the prosecution, one of the things contextually about it of course is that these were events happening a long time ago
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and of course we went through this sort of strange situation in which epstein faced charges. he had been allowed to plea oud. that was the scandal that brought it back. the department of justice against. everything that's being talked about here, right, we're talking about in a time frame of 10, 15 maybe 20 years ago something on that order is that right? >> even longer. so the -- the indictment spans from 1994 to 2004. that's 25 years -- it's a really really long time ago. so the defense is's argument they've been clear it is what timothy call the 3ms i call the 3ms. it's about memory. >> right. >> they argue that memories change over time. manipulation of those memories by self-interested civil lawyers. they say. and money. the fact that the witnesses, the victims, have changed their story according to the defense lawyers after jeffrey epstein
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died, and big bucks were on the table from the epstein compensation fund. >> what about the the invocation of donald trump, the pilot mentioned him. and then one of the girls as well. he was not the only famous figure mentioned of course. epstein had relationships with lots of very famous people. tell me about the context for that. >> so the i think they're laying a foundation -- i mean we'll wait to see. but one of the things that the psychologist, the expert psychologist on child predation talked about was the fact that predators of children often hide behind sort of very powerful people, that this is exactly what makes them so manipulative and intimidating to the children that they're abuseding. so i think that it's in in context that you're hearing about all these very famous
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people. the defense on the other hand seems to be using the very famous people for a different purpose. they are talking about how important jeffrey epstein was in a different way. they call him a modern james bond. >> vicky ward, the podcast is chasing ghislaine. the substack is vicky ward vekts that's all in for this week. rachel maddow starts right now. >> thank you chris, much spreadsheeted opinion thanks for joining thus hour we start tonight with exclusive reporting on a head-turning development that you have not heard about anywhere else but relates to the january 6th investigation. now, as we've been covering this week, part of the drama in the january 6th investigation right now has surrounded a former trump justice department official named jeffrey clark. jeff clark is the person with whom president trump apparently cooked up a scheme by which the justice department would try

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