tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 24, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
convicted at all. after the rittenhouse trial and zimmerman trial and so many cases where we've seen and been disappointed over and over again, justice in america seems to be much more likely for white americans. and until that changes, our u.s. criminal justice -- so-called criminal justice, "justice" system will remain "the absolute worst." and that's tonight's "reidout." happy thanksgiving. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> count one, malice murder. we the jury find the defendant travis mcmichael guilty. >> all three of the men who chased down and murdered ahmaud arbery and nearly got away with it, guilty. >> the spirit of america defeated the lynch mob! >> tonight the family's lawyer ben crump is here as justice is done for ahmaud arbery. and the latest on the criminal investigation into donald trump's business, as the manhattan d.a. issues new
subpoenas. plus -- >> all we have to do, cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. >> how the lawyer who helped try to steal an election got a job on an election federal board. and how boosters and a pill to treat covid could really help this holl say season, "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. tonight we have a heard in the shooting death of ahmaud arbery. former high school football star, 25-year-old ahmaud arbery, liked to go jogging near his mother's house near brunswick in georgia. in the afternoon of february 23rd, 2020, he ran into a subdivision called satilla shores. three white men, travis mcmichael and his father gregory, along with their neighbor william bryan, grabbed some guns, hopped in their trucks and started to chase oshry as he ran through the streets. they claimed they thought he was burglarizing houses in the neighborhood. that's when mcmichael chased off
aubrey in a white pickup truck and the neighbor william bryan started behind. bryan started to film what happened when arbery tried to run past mcmichaels. he got out of the truck and after a brief struggle,ing shot ahmaud arbery. but when police arrived at the scene, this is how they treated travis mcmichael. >> do you have anything on you? >> if he would have stopped -- >> that's fine, that's fine. like i said, just take a breath. you got your i.d. and all that? no, no, don't get blood all over yourself. i get it. look around. do what you need to do, man. i can only imagine. >> police did not arrest travis mcmichael after he shot and killed ahmaud arbery. they had been explicitly told not to arrest him by the district attorney because travis' dad, the one chasing arbery, was a former investigator in the d.a.'s office. that d.a. has since been indicted for telling the police
not arrest travis mcmichael. she's also accused of violating her oath of office, a felony, by showing favor and infection to mcmichael. even though she recused herself from mcmichael's case she recommended another prosecutor take over, someone she had already been working with and who already determined he also didn't think arrests were necessary. so for two months after they chased down and killed ahmaud arbery, as he jogged unarmed in broad daylight through his mother's neighborhood, travis mcmichael, his father gregory and their neighbor william bryan, were free men. it was not until the video of the murder that bryan handed over to police after the killing was leaked to the public in may 2020 that the three men were finally arrested and charged with murdering ahmaud arbery. the trial began earlier this month. the defense argued that their clients were trying to make a citizen's arrest. the prosecution argued they had no cause to chase down ahmaud
arbery. and today after ten hours of deliberation, the jury reached its verdict. >> state of georgia versus travis mcmichael, case number cr000433. jury verdict form. count one, malice murder. we the jury find the defendant, travis mcmichael, guilty. i'm going to ask whoever just made an outburst be removed from the court, please. >> that was ahmaud arbery's father, marcus arbery sr. that you hear in the courtroom. travis mcmichael shot and killed ahmaud arbery found glgt of all charges including one count of malice murder and four counts of felony murder. his father, gregory mcmichael, who chased ahmaud arbery down, was found guilty of four counts of felony murder and other charges. the neighbor william bryan, who chased ahmaud arbery down and filmed his murder was found guilty of three counts of felony
murder and other charges. the charges carry life in prison. sentencing has yet to be scheduled and all three of them still face federal hate crime charges too. they can be charged with a hate crime under state law because there was no hate crime on the statue in the books in georgia until ahmaud arbery's mother, wanda cooper jones, urged lawmakers to pass one last june. she was inside the courthouse every single moment of the trial. after the verdict came down, she spoke to the crowd gathered outside. >> it's been a long fight. it's been a hard fight. but god is good. >> yes, he is. >> early in i never thought -- to tell you the truth, i never saw this day back in 2020. i never thought this day would come. but god is good. >> yes, he is. >> i just want to tell everybody thank you, thank you, thank you for those who marched, those who prayed. most of all the ones who prayed. >> yes, lord. >> thank you, god. thank you. >> yes, lord.
>> thank you. now, qwez, you know him as ahmaud, he will now rest in peace. >> ben crump is the civil rights attorney and represents the family of ahmaud arbery and he joins me now. mr. crump, first i just want to ask how the family is doing, how the parents are doing in the wake of this verdict. >> well, chris, thank you for having me on this historic day. the parents are relieved. i think you heard that gut-wrenching sigh of leaf from marcus aubrey, ahmaud's father there when they announced the first guilty conviction for travis mcmichaels. and it's such a weight lifted off of them because not only have they witnessed just a horrific -- i mean just tragic killing of their child and lynching, as marcus arbery said,
but they had to fight so long to get to this day. so they're relieved, they're prayerful and very thankful to everybody who came together for justice for ahmaud. >> the mother explicitly thanking those who marched. this really is one of those cases where you if you look at the timeline, this was likely going to just go away until the public attention essentially triggered the wheels of justice to set in motion. what is your feeling about the role the public attention played and then the new team, the district attorney and prosecutor who ended up taking this case, charging it and trying it. >> well, chris, i think you're absolutely right, it was going to be swept under the rug. and we must remember the prosecutor jackie johnson and the police officer saw the video on day one, but as i said previously, it wasn't until we the people saw the video almost
70 days later that they finally were arrested and charged for the unjustified constitutional unnecessary killing, lynching of ahmaud arbery, and so the people had everything to do with that. the court of public opinion, the outrage, the righteous indignation of seeing a young man offered to humanity, hunted down like he's in the jim crow era and killed by a lynch mob. >> you noted the court of public opinion. of course, one of those things that happens with trials of this magnitude and high profile, what the public thinks and what people are saying outside and whatever the legal matters are in that courtroom presented to a jury that the jury has to evaluate. sometimes they sync up and sometimes they don't. your thoughts about this case, the jury which had 11 white members and the jury's decision
and the case the prosecution put on to reach what i think a lot of people felt was the obvious conclusion and yet nevertheless was actually reached today. >> yeah, it really gives us hope for america. when you think about this jury with 11 white members and one black member being able to focus in on the evidence, this horrific killing and not be distracted by all of the dog whistles and racial rhetoric like, you know, ahmaud had long legs and dirty toenails, which was offensive on every level. chris, when you really think about it, this case hearkened back to a jim crow era. you had this white lynch mob chasing this unarmed black man, taking justice into their own hands and killing him, and because he didn't comply. and then you had a defense lawyer say, well, we're going to tell you who can come and
comfort you in the court. we don't want all of these black pastors in here, as if he can inject his will on this black family like they did when they killed him, you need to comply with what we want you to do. and then, i mean the nail in the coffin was this prosecutor talking about him having long legs and dirty toenails, i almost hearkened it back to if he was a runaway slave and this lynch mob had a right to chase him down and capture him by any means necessary, even if that meant killing him. and the only thing that was left to be answered this afternoon was was the verdict going to be one that hearkened back to the jim crow era or, chris hayes, was it going to be a verdict that said to america, we must be better than this. we cannot condone this in 2021.
>> yes, the defense attorney who, of course, said that about the disgusting comment about the toenails. ben crump, thank you very much for making some time for us on this very, very big day. thank you. >> thank you, chris hayes. i want to turn now to david henderson, a criminal defense civil rights attorney and former prosecutor and christina greer, professor of political science at fordham university. you know, david, the thing that i just can't get over about this case, and this is a detail that's truly shocking, is that video was there, the cops had it the first day. you have the former employee of the district attorney's office kind of like nothing to see here, and then that video leaked to the public by the eventual defendant as exculpatory. listen to this, an attorney in brunswick, georgia, downloaded the video on a thumb dral which gregory mcmichaels physically delivered to a local radio deejay. he wanted the attorney to know
the truth, that he and his son were driving in a pickup truck with a confederate flag hanging on the back and it was exculpatory. that tells me so much about this entire story. >> chris, it does. let's be clear here, it's a relief to see this conviction. i can't imagine waking up to a world these killers were not convicted for what they did. we keep saying it was almost swept underneath the rug and that's inaccurate. it was swept underneath the rug. the prosecutor who initially handed the case is now facing charges. the second prosecutor who handled the case recused himself but not before he wrote a letter and placed it in the file and instructed the police all of the reasons why no arrest should be made for ahmaud's murder. it was swept under the rug. on the one hand i'm with you and thought how could you have possibly thought this exonerated you, and yet, they were right,
it did. fortunately, bryan's attorney didn't think to get a deal in writing, otherwise i think we could have been looking at a due process violation and he likely would have been pled to something lesser and received probation instead of the accurate punishment that he should. but this is step one. there still needs to be accountable for the prosecutors who refused to take the action they should have taken. >> one of the prosecutors had been charged. the other one you mentioned, georgia district attorney george barnhill, the district attorney in waycross, i just want to read from the letter, because you're right, in the file there's a letter saying i looked testified. here's why there's no charges here. why we know mcmichael had his finger on the trigger, we don't know who caused the firings. arbery would only had to pull the shotgun approximately 1/16 to 1/8 in an inch of life. you see present here, christina, the perverse logic of
vigilanteism well, it could have been an accident, to the process what is this man doing sticking a gun in the face of this other man? >> chris, it brings us back to conversations we have been having on this show for years. it's whether or not black people will ever be seen as real citizens in this country. the fact that far too many white americans can look at black individuals and say you don't belong here, whether it's children, whether we're walking down the street or jogging in a neighborhood, there are more and more white people who feel the need to protect what they deem as their country, their neighborhoods. so we see it on micro and macro levels and sometimes with deadly results. you hear ahmaud arbery's mother saying thank you for the prayers, this is a prayer that every single black individual, black parent, grandparent, says as their child walks out of the door because it is not a guarantee your child will come back, even if they're just walking to the store to get skittles or run, have a jog,
something that anyone should be able to do to be free, to be in their own body, and we see far too many white americans see it as an insult to them you dare have a black person live in their own existence and be in this country as a free individual. and we have yet to get to the bottom of that and we see how d.a.s, police officers, time and time again, just automatically err on the side of the white perpetrator as it comes to the black victim. >> yes, there was a great piece in "the new york times" by a public defender who talked about her experience in the criminal justice system, defending her clients, and often these trials are sort of awkward matches to the sort of stories we want to tell in some ways. they obviously are embedded in the context of american life, but what's going on in the room has a bunch of technical legal issues that can be distinct from the sort of themes outside of it and it seemed to me in this case when i watched that the prosecution did a very good job, on sort of a technical/legal
level it was a well prosecuted case and the defense was not that good and that was quite different -- there was quite a contrast between that and the rittenhouse trial in that respect. >> chris, that's true. i think, to be frank, i think the prosecution's heart was not in the rittenhouse's trial. the prosecution's heart was in this trial. i don't think everything was perfect but i'm not one to talk about dieting on thanksgiving either. ultimately, they did their jobs. and i think it reflects back on here's what you have to interpret about this jury, this verdict doesn't simply convict the men who were on trial, it also convicts the analysis that went into dismissing this case previously. if you look at the letter that you're holding, the legal analysis in that letter is deeply flawed. so you're forced to pick between one of two choices, either the lawyers are that bad at analyzing georgia law and applying it to a set of facts or they were deeply biased in favor of the mcmichaels and bryan. neither one of those options
were good. and police officers wear badges and take a oath and you shouldn't be allowed to carry that badge or maintain that oath if that's the way you conduct business. that's why i said this is really just the first step, this is partial justice. but i think we lay ahmaud's case to rest when this justice is complete. >> finally and quickly for you, christina, the other connection to the rittenhouse trial here is just the utter madness of the gun in the private hands as a means of enforcing order, which i think is revealed in both cases with different outcomes. much but that to me is a commonality here that is really at the front and center of the larger conversation. >> absolutely, chris. but what's also at front and center is white men who say i needed to arm myself because i felt afraid, therefore i put myself in danger. kyle rittenhouse picked up a gun, went across state lines and put himself in the middle of something that had nothing to do with him. similarly these three men decided to hunt down a black man with a gun when they could have just left him alone or called
911 if they were that fearful for their lives. we keep seeing this more and more as a pattern of white men picking up a gun in the guise of i was fearful. >> david henderson, christina greer, have a great thanksgiving, both of you, and thank you for making time for us tonight. i appreciate it. donald trump is now a private citizen, no longer the head of the republican party, so it caught a lot of people's attention when it came out the rnc is footing the bill for some of trump's personal legal bills. we found out today what might be racking up those costs. up next, what the new subpoenas tell us about the criminal investigation into donald trump after this. investigation into donald trump after this with alka seltzer plus. with 25% more concentrated power. alka-seltzer plus. ♪ oh, what a relief it is ♪ so fast! also try for cough, mucus & congestion. ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover.
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turned a lot of heads earlier this week when it was reported that the republican national committee, the official party organ, was paying donald trump's personal legal bills. tonight we're getting a clearer picture of what republican donors are funding. an rnc spokesperson announced monday that in october the rnc made two payments totaling $121,670 to an attorney representing donald trump as he faces investigations by the manhattan district attorney and new york's attorney general. "the new york times" is reporting tonight about where those investigations are headed. according to "the times," manhattan district attorney cy vance has been busy as his final weeks wind down. mr. vance's prosecutors issued new subpoenas for records of mr. trump's hotels, golf clubs and office buildings. they recently interviewed a banker employed by deutsche
bank, mr. trump's top lender. at least one issued a subpoena to mr. trump's organization to demand information about how the company valued various assets. vance, the man investigating trump, will leave office at the end of this year, leading to questions about whether he will try to indict the former president on his way out the door. rebecca works as assistant district attorney and securities fraud unit in the manhattan district attorney office and now a professor at the new york law school and joins me now. rebecca, first just give us gloss from your perspective as someone who worked as a prosecutor on sort of securities fraud cases in that office, what we can glean from what "the times" says about the subpoenas which apparently were issued, which by the way, we should note, happened in the summer. >> yeah, chris, we heard a lot in public reporting about these properties and how the former president and trump organization may have manipulated the value of these assets in order to get favorable treatment from these
lenders. so the key question here, the question that the manhattan district attorney has to assess is, okay, that looks shady, was there actually a crime here? and in new york, new york law, the key to that question -- we don't have a bank fraud statute, so the key to that question, there are a number of different statutes but they all require intent and specifically intent to defraud. so the key question in this case is going to be can the prosecutor prove that even if this was going on and it was shady, was there an intent to defraud? i think it's going to come down to that. with all of those documents, what really matters is that is there somebody who was in the room who could say, we can look at these documents and they show a map, but what was intended, who intended what and was it to defraud? >> that's such an important point. michael cohen testified about this when he was before the house, you know, several years ago basically saying, look, this was -- i think he called it essentially routine practice, i
forget the exact words, we would change the valuations of properties. obviously you want to value them low for tax purposes and high for insurance purposes and, you know, and you can't move that around, right? and i think rachel has done reporting on this, there's public records that indicate they were doing precisely this, so i don't think even think it's that disputed what the actual behavior was but to your point about the intent making it a difficult case to make, it's clarifying because i have been watching this and watched all of these reports saying, it seems like you can't do that but to turn it into something criminal, that intent is key and it sounds like from what you're yu saying, not necessarily easy to establish in the absence of a cooperating witness. >> yes, there are essentially three obstacles to proving this. first of all, he dealt with lawyers, he dealt with appraisers. if those lawyers and appraisers told him to do something, he can say hey, i was acting on advice of counsel. i acted because they told me that. the second one, this is the way
it's done in real estate business. everybody messes around with the values of their properties for different purposes, different mechanisms, this is how it's done. finally, this was a bank. this wasn't some unsophisticated person i was deceiving. this was a sophisticated bank. they knew what was going on. they had their own appraisers. they don't care. those are serious obstacles and i don't see the d.a. being able to overcome those obstacles without having somebody there, a cooperator who will tell him this is actually what we were doing and this is the way we were doing it. the documents are really important, but i don't think they're enough to make this case. i would be surprised if they were. >> that point is really true. one thing i learned from this entire era, wow, there's a lot of shadiness in the world of real estate and like a lot of three-card monty happening with evaluations and such. and back when i was investigating the financial crisis, there were areas ripe for fraud, a lot happening
amongst a whole bunch of parties and not caught or prosecuted but still in the 12i78 so that's also a possibility. rebecca roiphe, thank you so much for sharing with that and have a happy thanksgiving. >> thank you, you too. donald trump is also facing the possibility of criminal charges in georgia now thanks to the lengthy call he made to georgia's secretary of state trying to get him to alter the outcome of the election. you know who else was on that call? >> does anybody know about it? >> i know about it but never -- >> okay, cleta, i'm not asking you, honestly. >> cleta was trump's attorney at the time. you will never guess what she's doing now. seriously, that's next. doing no. seriously, that's next just one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. because life starts when heartburn stops. take the challenge at prilosecotc dot com.
judge ordered two such lawyers to pay more than $186,000 in legal fees for the groups they sued, saying a lawsuit, quote, has been used to manipulate gullible memts of the public and foment public unrest. ouch. but all of the lawyers who pushed lies met the same fate. remember the ex-president's now infamous call to georgia's republican secretary of state back in january trying to bully him into swinging thousands of votes in his favor? >> you have all of these different people that voted but they don't live in georgia anymore. what was that number, cleta? that was a pretty good number, too. >> the number who have registered out of state after they moved from georgia. and so they had a date when they moved from georgia, they registered to vote out of state, and then it was like 4,500. i don't have that right in front of me. something like that. >> and then they came back in and they voted. >> the cleta you heard replying to trump there was a woman named cleta mitchell. she was representing the
president as his attorney on that call as he was trying to overturn an election in georgia. there was such a backlash to her involvement on that call from her law firm that she resigned from the firm just days later. you might think that kind of think would be a career-ender. well, that would be the last anyone would hear of cleta mitchell. you would be wrong. instead in august, just three months ago, cleta was appointed to the advisory board of the u.s. commission, who i kid you not, helps the state conduct secure elections. that's right, the lawyer on the call with donald trump trying to pull off a coupe by bullying georgia officials into essentially committing election fraud is now responsible for making elections more secure. jessica huseman broke the story of cleta mitchell's new job. she's the director of vote beat, nonprofit newsroom dedicated to nonpartisan coverage of election commission and voting access.
she joins me now. first, let's start with cleta mitchell and who she is, her role. she's a establishment republican attorney, is my sense? >> yes, she's been involved in republican politics for a really long time and, in fact, this is not the first voting advisory board that she's ever sat on. i think that her extreme ideology flew under the radar for a really long time but then obviously hit everyone right in the face when the audio of the georgia call came out and she couldn't really run from it anymore. so this appointment is pretty stunning. >> so she was appointed. what is the -- the election assistants commission is what? >> the elections commission is a nonpartisan extra organization that's supposed to provide guidance on best practices and security to election officials across the country. their biggest responsibility is
distributing federal money but they also certify voting machines or the labs that they accredit certify voting machines. so they're very influential in voting because they essentially dictate which machines states can or cannot buy. >> gotcha. so they're like this federal commission, born under the help american vote act, which was in wake of the bush v gore election -- >> absolutely. >> and they do like technical assistance, give money out to election administrators. it's a fairly like, again, nonpartisan technical kind of stuff, how you technically run an election, and they have a special advisory committee, is that right? >> yes, they have a board of advisers that made up of 35 people and the help america vote act gave several different organizations the ability to place people on this board, everyone from the u.s. commission on civil rights, which is the board that appointed cleta mitchell and also the department of homeland security. so it's kind of a broad board. they don't have binding decision
making authority over the eac. they're just there in an advisory role, but ultimately the eac only has credibility in the state insofar as the state chooses to listen to it. so this is not a good thing for the eac in terms of its credibility across the board. >> so -- so there's -- this happens in different federal agencies or commissions, right? so different entities get to a point, these seats to the board. one is a u.s. civil rights commission, which is another federally empaneled board. they chose cleta mitchell. why, how? >> it is the strangest thing i have ever seen. so this board at the end of the trump administration, he appointed jay christian addia, who you might recall was on the voter fraud commission and made his name suing states and counties over what he says are dirty voter rolls. he's a voter fraud conspiracy
theorist and trump appointed him to the u.s. commission on civil rights at the end of his administration and sort of grounded the entire commission to a halt. these commissioners can only be removed in the event of bad behavior or some specific type of malfeasance, i guess. nothing he's done has hit that mark. so he kicked up a big fit in january and february about the lack of a republican and a democrat on this advisory board, the usecr gets two nominees. he wanted one to be a republican, one to be a democrat. in order to placate him, the committee rescinded both who were currently on the board, whose terms were expired anyway, and chose to appoint one republican and one democrat. they did this by allowing the republicans on the commission to nominate two people and the democrats to nominate two. the two republicans that were sent up to a vote were jay christian adams himself and cleta mitchell. and the commission, and this is true, found jay christian adams
to be so disagreeable that they appointed cleta mitchell and they did so willingly. >> this guy is on the commission, he's a trump devotee. he's viewed, if i can say charitably as noxious by his fellow commissioners. he's one of these sort of like oh, there's all sorts of dead democrats voting kind of folks. and so he -- his name and cleta mitchell are in there and they're like we'll take cleta mitchell, the one on the call trying to overturn an american election rather than this dude, who is just unbearable, basically? >> absolutely. to hear the commissioners who didn't want to go on the record about this because jay christian adams is so unpleasant to deal with, he's just so difficult to work with and prevents any activity from going forward that they felt he would probably pull the same stuff on the board of advisers so they chose to nominate cleta mitchell, who ultimately they determined would be annoying but probably wouldn't grind things to a halt. >> well, everybody knows the
names of sidney powell and lin wood and rudy giuliani, and i think there's been attendance reputational damage. cleta is not a household name but she should be. she was on the call doing something wildly, wildly, i don't know, ee nick cal to american democracy and there she is, jessica huseman who did great reporting to dig this up. thank you for joining us on thanksgiving eve. have a great holiday. >> thank you. one of the great things about tonight is knowing tomorrow we will see the return of thanksgiving parades in major cities across the country. in places like chicago, where over 100 floats will make their way down state street. the longest parade in the country returns to philly tomorrow and, of course, new york city the iconic balloons are back. they're being blown up right now before they head down sixth avenue and macy's day parade tomorrow. houston, the return of the thanksgiving parade in that city will feature a salute to frontline workers, as it makes
it triumphant return. just so happens the grand marshal of that parade, no stranger to viewers of this show, joins us next. s us next. where everything just seems to go your way. ♪ ♪ you're in good hands with allstate. click or call for a lower auto rate today. >> are you ready to start a great career? you're in good hands with allstate. >> safelite is now hiring. >> you will love your job. >> there's room to grow... >> ...and lots of opportunities. >> so, what are you waiting for? >> apply now...
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earn $10 just for viewing your rate — and get your money right. ♪ as we approach thanksgiving and people to gather friends and family, it is appalling there are as many people dyeing of covid in the u.s. every single day right now that there were this time last year before we had vaccines. that said, there are a couple of reasons to think we're actually in much better shape at least going into the holidays than this time last year. one, booster shots. everyone should get one who's eligible, which is basically everyone. if you had your shot more than six months ago and they're an adult, they appear to be more effective. we get more data to that effect by the day. two, there's a new treatment on the horizon. both pfizer and merck announced antiviral pills that lower the chance of hospitalization and death. the fda is expected to weigh in on these medications in the next
few weeks. "the washington post" reports the biden administration already preordered enough doses for 10 million people. so what will this winter look like in terms of covid? to help answer that i'm joined by dr. pete hotez, dean of the baylor college of medicine, who's being honored for his service tomorrow as the grand marshal of houston's thanksgiving day parade. dr. hotez, congratulations. thank you for joining us. let's start with where we are on this, which is a maddening reality which is the combination we no longer have what we call nonpharmaceutical interventions. we're not doing much in the way of closing businesses down, social distancing, which i think makes sense given the availability of vaccines, that plus delta means for the population of folks that are unvaccinated, there's still this incredibly live, dangerous present pandemic that's going to find everyone more or less. how do you think about it? >> yeah, that's exactly right, chris. i mean, look what's happened in our state of texas since june 1.
20,000 unvaccinated texans since june 1 and needlessly, unnecessarily tragically lost their lives to covid-19. none of those -- almost none of those 20,000 individuals had to die. i don't even know what the word use to describe this is. this goes beyond misinformation or disinformation, it's this absolute bizarre mess form of self-emlags or being targeted by anti-science aggression i have ever seen. 20,000 people that didn't need to die since june 1. guess what, chris, it's about to happen again as this new wave, this winter wave is now sweeping across the upper midwest. what do people think is going to happen? we still have 40% of the u.s. population unvaccinated, 41%, and we have literally millions of individuals waiting to get attacked by covid-19, who remained defiant of vaccines because of the allegiance to god only knows what you want to call
it, or taking useless ivermectin in its place. so i clearly appreciate the opportunity to talk to the american people by coming on and speaking with you. but we've just got to try to do more than we are because 1,000 americans are now losing their lives every day unnecessarily because they're refusing vaccinations. we're going to hit the 800,000 death mark in a couple of weeks. >> i mean, as grim as this is, there is -- it does look like a good day for boosters providing really good additional protection. what do you tell people who ask you, should i get a booster? >> the answer is yes. i think if you're over the age of 18, you should get that third immunization because we have data from israel showing it's not only keeping you out of the hospital and preventing you from losing your lives from waning immunity more than six months after the two doses, but it also
looks like it may be halting infection and maybe possibly asymptomatic transmission. so you definitely want to get that third immunization if you're over 18 and six months out. it's a huge difference. it causes a neutralize of your rise of the antibody and may prolong immunity. and you won't need an annual booster so it may not be one or two and done but possibility it could be three and done. >> let's talk finally about the treatment horizon again. it shouldn't be as necessary as it is, but given as it is, and given this situation that we find ourselves in, "the washington post" writing the treatment will change the pandemic but it can't end it alone. experts who are thrilled of the prospect of two powerful medicines worry the idea of the treatments may distract from the limitation and necessity of preventing illness in the first place. i wonder if you share that worry? >> yeah, they're good and interesting drugs but they only are going to be effective if
they are given very, very early on in the illness, because it's only affecting the virus replication phase. so as the illness proceeds, you get a host inflammatory response and the drugs will be much, much less effective. the thing i worry about is the wrong message going to be sent which is hey, i don't want to get the vaccine but i will just take the drug instead if i get sick. it doesn't work that way. the drugs are not a guarantee by any means and you have to give it super early on in the course of infection. it's a backstop. it's not the primary mode of controlling this virus. you need to get vaccinated. >> dr. peter hotez, it's been a great pleasure to have you on this program during this pandemic, even though the pandemic itself has been brutal and bleak in many ways, but i've really come to rely on your expertise, and i'm glad you will be grand marshaling the parade tomorrow so have a great time. >> thanks, chris. i really appreciate it. coming up -- one of the stories i have been most excited about all week, how election
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so last fall, it was still covid. there was no vaccine and i had to start coming into the studio to do the show. and i had a little bit of a commuting problem. i didn't really want to take the subway at that point. but i had to get from brooklyn to midtown. that's about nine miles. and i had to do it without the subway. i didn't want to take a car every day. i came one the ultimate solution. a foldable e-bike. i started riding that e-bike into the city nine miles every day, back and forth. folded it up, brought it into the office. best commute i've ever had in my life. unlike a regular bike where you show up and you're all sweaty, you can't hop on air. this, you ride cool and clean.
it's a once you try me bike, you will be a convert. i was excited to see someone else evangeliing the church of the e-bike in "the new york times." a piece called "free e-bikes for everyone," a sentiment i could not more whole heartedly endorse. and i have the author of that piece here with us tonight. jay, as you can tell, i'm an e-bike convert. tell me about your own e-bike conversion story. >> i saw a tweet that one of my colleagues put out, and it showed all of his groceries on his bike. i was like, what is going on? how is that possible? and yeah, i got one, similar to you i rode around a lot in the pandemic. and i don't know, it was just extremely liberating for me. i take my kid to school on it. and she loves it.
i don't know. like it -- it feels like the city is open in a way that it wasn't before. and i don't know, i feel like everyone should feel that type of liberation and ability to sort of converse and meet with people and, you know, talk to people without having to sit inside their car. >> yeah. it's -- first of all, it's a very cool feeling because you feel like a super hero. it's the vision that i had as a kid of having like a cyber suit, where you are like ironman, where it's like you but you're stronger. so when you're pushing the pedals, there's extra umph, but you can put kids on it, runner rands on it. and it replaces a lot of car trips. i know a bunch of people who have gotten them for things like dropping off kids and stuff like that. you write in the piec --
>> do you think this would work? >> oh, yeah. we have to get cars off the streets somehow, right? we have to get cars off the road somehow for every reason. pedestrian safety, bike safety, but mostly because of climate change, carbon that they emit. so i don't know. i think that you need to come up with some sort of drastic measure that also incentivizes people. we've been waiting for a solution, and every single person that i have talked to that has ridden an e-bike said that it's replaced tons of their car trips. the only problem right now is having more people adopt it is
a, they're pretty expensive. so if you give them away for free, which would be much, much cheaper if you could do at-large scale. that's the only real way you'll get cars off the road. you have to have something that can replace that. and people are still going to want some sort of speed and convenience. i think e-bikes are the way right now. >> yeah. and i think we should note, yes, the key here is we think about building this sort of city of the future, and neighborhood of the future, not just cities. these could work in suburban environments as well for the kind of trips you would normally take with a car. we're going to need to plan cities in different ways. a lot of pedestrians feel like they're dangerous. but you do need to find ways that every mode can operate with each other. but just as a -- i was just literally before i left the house was talking to my wife, kate, about picking up the pies tomorrow on the way to my
parent's house, which is like the perfect example, probably a two-mile trip. it's a pain to walk back with pies. i don't really want to take an uber. driving over there seems crazy. i'm just going to get on my e-bike and pick up the pies. and like that is exactly the -- there are so many trips like that, that can be replaced for so many people if this was in people's hands. >> yeah. i do the same thing. if i have to get a pizza and pick it up, that's how i go pick it up. and i bike up a hill back, get a little bit of exercise. and yeah, between that and dropping my kid off, that's about 80% of my car rides. so if i have a giant load of groceries, then i still take my car. that's pretty rare that i need to go out and get a ton of groceries. so it could replace i think about 80% of what i use. and i don't live in a big city.
i live in a suburban place. and it's done it for me. >> all right. jay, thank you for joining us tonight. i should say thank you again for joining me on my podcast. that episode is out now with other great interviews. this week i spoke with documentaryian about the art of filmic maer. listen with my conversation to al roker or any one of the episodes that cover topics like health care in america or america's favorite fighting frenchman. hope you check it out. i wish all of you a safe and happy thanksgiving holiday. my favorite holiday. let's all be good to each other. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. good evening, ali. >> long drives or e-bike drives, you're looking good, chris. you may not get fully sweaty, but you're putting som