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tv   Hallie Jackson Reports  MSNBC  November 17, 2021 12:00pm-1:00pm PST

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mcmichael as the day goes on. >> prosecution sure to emphasize that ahmaud arbery was not armed. ron allen, thank you very much. that does it for me on this busy day. hallie jackson picks up our coverage. i'm in washington with two big breaking stories we're following as we come on the air. 3:00 east coast time. in brunswick, georgia, what you just heard about, we're waiting for one of the defendants in the murder trial other the killing of ahmaud arbery to come back on the stand, that should happen any minute really. travis mcmichael set to talk about the moments when arbery was shot and killed. and we're also watching something here in washington in building right behind me, lawmakers about to vote any minute on something that they haven't done in more than a decade. rebuking one of their own. democrats looking to not only censure republican congressman paul gosar, but to boot him from his committees too. why? because of that video he tweeted
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showing him killing congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez. an animae video. we won't show you that, but we will show you what is going down on the house floor. we'll bring that vote to you live when it happens. and i want to bring in our team covering the capitol for us. ali vitali, john bresnahan is here with us as well. ali, if we have you, what is the deal and when -- we don't have ali vitali. bres, do we have you? because we're juggling a lot here as we're coming on the air with this live breaking coverage. you're with us, right? >> i'm with you. you can hear me? >> i sure can. bring me up to speed because i know that we've been seeing a number of speeches here including alexandria ocasio-cortez herself. speaker pelosi and others. what has stood out to you? >> well, alexandria ocasio-cortez spoke, gosar spoke, he down played the significance of the video. and you talked about this anime
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video that where he kills ocasio-cortez in the video and threatens the president of the united states, president biden. he did not apologize. he tried to downplay it. his comments with are basically i'm sorry that you were offended. that won't cut it for democrats. ocasio-cortez gave a very impassioned speech where they talked about, you know, is this behavior acceptable to anyone in this chamber. that is literally what she said. and if it is not, they should act accordingly. and paraphrasing her, what we do here as members of congress matters at the state and local level. people see this example. and what gosar is doing is normalizing violence as part of political debate and discussion. and that is unacceptable. >> and i want to have you stand by for one second because the democratic majority leader steny
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hoyer is speaking and we want to listensecond. >> -- experienced the same pain. all of us who were in this capitol on january 6 and those who stood in defense of it know that pain. loved ones of officer sicknick, levingood, smith, they carry the pain every day. and officer evans' family as well was carrying that pain since april. madame speaker, so do the families of elected officials, journalists and civil society leaders killed by political violence across the world. incited by rhetoric that is rationalized as acceptable in the political environment. and then, oh, i don't support violence. i don't know how that happened. yes, i said in the front of the capitol of the united states, excuse me, of the white house,
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go down to the capitol. and although it wasn't the exact words of to be violent, it is what those who came down here expected the exhortation to be. it would be naive, madame speaker, to suppose that we can eradicate the violence in wider society either in our country or abroad. such evil has always existed and the internet and social media make it easier to disseminate that malicious type of speech. but constitutional parliamentarians worldwide have long understood that in order to maintain the level of civility required to carry out the business of legislation for the people, we must have rules of decorum. and limits on speech that would cause civil debate to devolve into uncivil attacks and political violence. that is why we have rules in this house to enforce decorum
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and ensure civility. that is why we have rules of conduct which the chairman of the ethics committee read a little earlier. it should be and is undebatable that this conduct violated that rule. those rules apply not only to this floor but everywhere, a sitting member engages and when the rules were written they did not anticipate that member would threaten violence directly against another member. not because it has never happened. congressman from south carolina nearly beat to death a senator from massachusetts, senator sumner, because he wanted to abolish slavery. that of course was a crime. in some countries threatening public officials is a crime. didn't have to spell out that
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explicitly because it has always been understood that such behavior is unacceptable. and in this institution and incompatible with our service, indeed any kindergarten frankly, madame speaker, will tell that you such behavior is wrong anywhere. the actions of representative gosar this week and in weeks previously much like the actions of representative greene earlier this year would convey a dangerous lesson to our children and teenagers that the opposite is true. that threatening violence against someone with whom you disagree is acceptable. it is not. that bullying one's followers or menacing another group somehow compatible with citizenship with democracy and a civilized society. it is not. the resolution before us today
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is necessary because we in this house who speak for the american people must reflect as the speaker said the highest standards of american society. i just came from the speaker's office not too long ago. i don't know how many of you have been there. but over the door it is the robert michael rooms. i had the opportunity to serve with robert michael. he was from me or i can't. peoria. and he was one of the finest most decent men that i have known. not just serving in the congress, but have known. he said this -- quote, civility means being tough without being mean. being witty without being malicious. and believing in the power of reason to influence public debate while still being aware of the power, hear these last words, being aware of the power
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of irrationality in public life. this resolution, madame speaker, is necessary because when members of congress and other elected officials speak and act, our constituents and followers give great weight to our words and actions. it is a way for them to rationalize unacceptable behavior. as was done on january 6. it is disgusting, madame speaker, whenever someone out in the world tweets a threat of violence or hateful content. but when a member of the house does so, no matter how you rationalize it, no matter how you try to put lipstick on that pig, it is a threat of violence. what representative gosar did last week is not just worthy of censure, it demands it. and for anyone who threatens to apply the same standard to democrats in the future as ms.
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pierce said, i'm with you. this is not about republicans or democrats. this is about decency. this is about security for our members. this is about democracy. not violent overthrow or opposition. i for one will join you in enforcing that standard on any democrat who violates it. but i will tell you this, your analogies, madame speaker, the analogies that the republicans have been making limp badly. i'm certain my fellow democrats will do the same. because this is not about party. it is not about politics, it is not about partisanship. it is about decorum, civility, safety. and, yes, the rule of law. that was trampled upon on january 6. but this is not about january 6.
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but this is about this incident of a member using whatever medium you want to say on the public dime threatening and showing the killing of a member of this house. can't that apappall you, even tt act? do you have no shame? madame speaker, those are the questions that i would ask. for one should be allowed to engage in violence against a fellow american because we know where it leads. we've seen this year and previous years. piercing tweets become sharp knives. fiery words bring out deadly firearms and cartoon killing begets real life blood shed. this resolution specifically addresses representative gosar's sanctions but also more generally what i hope is the sentiment shared by members of
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both parties. that we have seen too much of violent speech in our politics and in this country and it must end. in february when we considered resolution relating to the violence protesting actions of representative greene, i recall the famous words of edmond burke who reviewed service as the highest calling. he said nothing is necessary for the spread of evil but that good men and women -- he did not add that but would today certainly -- that good men and good women do nothing. once again, republican leadership in this house has chosen to do nothing. it is interesting because a far lesser offense resulted in the removal of a republican by the republicans from committee.
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steve king of iowa. so again, the house in light of that void must take action. i urge my colleagues to vote yes on both sides of the aisle, to uphold a standard that should be critical to us all. some modicum of respect for those who are political opponents, madame speaker. and some restraint in the way that we depict them and ourselves. vote yes on this resolution. i yield back the balance of my time. >> gentle lady from indiana. >> and i yield to the ranking member of the oversight and reform committee. >> recognized for two minutes. >> madame speaker, during democrats' leadership of the house, we've seenen a unprecedented exercise of
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authority that only a democrat could wield due to the authoritarian nature of actions. democrat leadership has fined republican members for not masking, installed metal detectors, stripped others of committee assignments and sought to enforce sweeping subpoenas against the former president and his top advisers. and not just related to the events of january 6 -- >> we have been intending to show you more of this speech from the ranking member of the oversight committee, a republican after you heard from the democratic majority leader discussing the censure vote set to happen any minute against congressman paul gosar who as we have been talking about released had anime video interpreted as a threat to representative alexandria ocasio-cortez. we'll come back to this, but we have to get you over to the other breaking news, which is in the trial of the kllers of ahmaud arbery. travis mcmichael is back on the
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stand and we'll listen into a bit. >> -- he says get in the truck. >> yes. >> you said that you had a shotgun. >> i did. >> where did you put your shotgun? >> i put it right between -- it was a brand new truck, so it had vinyl seats. it was bench seats, a work truck. and what i would usually do if i'm out in the woods or if you have a long gun with me, i put it between the seats. it was a crease between the two seats. >> so it is a bench seat. >> it is. >> but there is a crease? >> yeah, three different seats but all across and i just put my shotgun or rifle or whatever right there. >> and where is the muzzle? >> the muzzle is down to the floor board touching the floor board by the gas pedal. >> and where is the butt of the gun? >> butt of the gun being that was a shorter short gun, if i'm sitting in the seat, the butt would be about right here.
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>> where did your dad get in the xar? >> i had a car seat at the time, it was a regular cab pickup -- >> stop there. i'll show exhibit 13 for identification. i'll show you this. do you recognize it? >> yes. >> what is it? >> that is looking in the interior of my truck at the time with my son's car seat in the passenger's seat. >> is that fair and accurate depiction of the car seat? >> very much so, yes. >> move to admit. >> no objection. >> so it is published. >> go ahead. >> so i'm showing you defense
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14. taking a look here, obviously this is the car seat we're talking about? >> yeah, same car seat. >> so where is your dad sitting? >> he is stuffed in the car seat. he is kind of -- he has kind of got half of him in the car seat and -- if this is the car seat, he is kind of angled in it like this. he is stuffed -- best term to say he is stuffed in the car seat. >> and what is he saying to you, if anything? >> i think he was cussing about the car seat trying to get in the car seat. i had just started driving. at that point -- >> which way are you drive something. >> i turn out and head towards berfer. >> and what are you doing driving in that direction? >> i'm trying to find out what is going on. flying to analyze the situation. but looking for whoever it was that ran by that -- i hadn't made eye contact at that time.
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>> had you personally determined at that time who ran by? >> no, i had not. >> have you accepted that your dad said that this is in fabts the guy? >> i assume that he was correct but i wanted to verify. >> so you start heading toward berfer. and what do you do or what do you see? >> as we're going, i asked my father have you -- did call the cops or are the cops on the way. not sure exactly what i said. i think i said did you call the cops. >> and so at this moment you are asking him if he called the police. >> yes. >> and? >> and he said -- i know he didn't scratch what i was saying. i don't think that he was paying attentioncompletely. he said yes, yes. i assumed that he had called the police. >> you're saying i know that he didn't. you mean as you set here today you know he didn't? >> minutes later i realized that he didn't. >> at this moment what was your impression at this moment? >> that the police had been
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called. >> okay. where do you go now? >> i continue -- about that time, right around there, we were at the corner of satilla homes and then berfer is a couple yards past that. we were about right there. there is a group of bushes and kind of a jog on to berfer. you can see straight down the road, but where we were at, you can miss somebody. >> so bushes here at the corner? >> yes. >> so hard to see. what do you do? >> continue on. i looked down satilla, holmes, nobody on either side. >> so you go this way. now what? >> as soon as we get on it, i see mr. arbery running down the road. >> so what are you doing when you first see him? >> when i first see him, i'm
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trying to -- seeing if i recognize him. and he is running. he has long strides. athletic. he was in great shape. he was with long strides and i recognized that. but you know, i mean, i'm -- >> so what do you do next? >> so i continue to drive up to him. as we get closer, i recognize his haircut. >> where would you say that you are on burford when you get close to him? >> i was two houses down. i mean, it was the first 150 feet i would say. >> now, are you -- how fast would you say that you are going? >> at that point, i was probably riding the brake. >> okay. are you honking? >> no. >> are you hanging out the window yelling? >> no. >> all right. do you wrenchly pull up next to him? >> i do. >> do you hit him with your truck as you pull up next to
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him? >> i do not. >> where are you when you pull up next to him? >> as i got closer, i was in the center line of the road and he was 2 feet off the edge of the road. on the road, but 2, 3 feet off from the edge. >> as you are approaching him, are you making any observations? >> yeah, i'm realizing at this point that this is more likely the same guy that i saw. but i'm also watching his hands, watching his -- >> why? >> make sure he's not armed. i don't know what i'm coming into. and, you know, if this is the same guy and i have some suspicions that he may be armed and may act on it. >> what do you do next? >> so i come up to him, pull up alongside of him. at that moment i recognize that it is him, that it is the same guy that i saw from the 11th. i asked him, hey, what are you doing, what is going on.
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>> stop. are you still driving when you say this? >> yeah, i'm coasting, i'm staying with him, he is right there at my door. >> have you angled in front of him to block him? >> i'm parallel with him. >> you say hey -- go ahead. >> what's going on, what are you doing. >> what is the tone of your voice? >> just like that, hey, what's going on. i'm trying to -- like i said, i'm trying to deescalate. i know that this can be -- this could go anyway. but i'm trying to find out what is going on, trying to find out why he ran down the road and if this is the same guy, you know, there could be something too-to-this, let's find out what happened. and so i said stop for a minute, please stop. well, he didn't say anything. he -- >> quote you, stop for a minute, please stop, did you actually use the word please? >> i'm sure i did. i'm trying to -- like i said,
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i'm trying to keep this as nonvolatile as possible. so i'm not screaming at the guy. just trying to find out what is happening. so he pulls up and one thing i do notice as we're talking is his demeanor. >> what do you mean he pulls up? >> sorry, when i pull up alongside, not him. but when i talked to him, he looks over to me and wasn't yelling at him. i mean, first communication i had to him and i was from 4 feet, 5 feet away -- you know, road lane from him. and he looked over at me and he was -- >> permission to get down, your honor. right here. i'll come up. i'll approach. how far are we? >> i was -- >> you're in your truck. turn and face this way. >> yeah, about that. no further than where you are. >> and what are you saying? >> just hey, what's going on, stop a minute, i want to talk to you.
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>> and what is he doing? >> i want to talk to you is what i said. >> does herunning? >> no, at this point he is still running. but he looked very angry. >> what do you mean. >> mad. it wasn't what i expected for just coming up and talking to him. it was clenched teeth, closed brow. he was mad. which made me think that something -- something has happened. why would -- >> okay. >> not what i expected at all. >> all right. so unexpected. so now what do you do? >> so kind of analyzing this, you know, i asked him again or tell him -- ask him again, hey, will you stop for a second. and he stops -- or actually just turns and starts jogging back in a jog back -- you know, going back up towards burford and
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satilla. >> so does he speak to you? >> he did not speak to me. >> does he say what do you want or leave me alone? >> nothing. >> so he starts to run back this direction. what do you do? >> i back up. i put the truck in reverse and match up with him again. >> all right. >> as i come up to him, i start to ask him, hey, what is going on? what is going on? he turns and runs. >> and runs which way? >> back to -- we're still on burford. so back to -- >> all right. you're fine. so when you pull up to him the second time and say hey, what is going on, what do you mean by that question, what is going on? >> i want to know main thing is why is the neighbor pointing down the road from the direction where he's at.
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it could be nothing. but with dad saying that he got ran by and then coming out, like what is he talking about and seeing someone pointing down the road from 220 from where i encountered him a week and a half prior, going into the house that has been burglarized, that he's been in several times, that, yeah, we need to figure out what is happening. >> have you now seen the video -- you've been sitting here the whole trial. have you seen the video from roddie bryan's driveway? >> yes. >> were you aware of mr. bryan in that moment? >> no. >> did you see him on his porch? >> i didn't. never met him before. >> did you know him before this moment? >> no. >> any facebook connection with him? >> no. >> ever call him on the phone? >> no. >> and at this moment are you aware that he is on his porch and can see you and mr. arbery there together? >> no. >> stupid question time. did you look at him and go -- let's go, get in your truck,
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help us out? >> no. >> so he starts to run back up the road after the second attempt at a conversation. before he ran up the road, at that second attempt of conversation, did he speak to you and say, hey, what, what is it? >> no. >> any kind of words whatsoever? >> no. >> did he make eye contact? >> yeah, we made eye contact the first time. second time, i'm not sure. i mean, may have, but i was kind of watching his hands, you know, i was more tuned to his hands. >> this time when you backed up, did you back up to try to block him? >> i did not. >> did you move in front of him to try to block him? >> i did not. >> what did you do next? >> as he took off running again, i put the truck in drive. and stayed with him and kind of analyzed him, what's going on. >> explain. >> just watching -- trying to figure out what is happening. watching his demeanor, you know,
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if he is -- what is happening. >> all right. did you eventually reach him? >> yeah, i decided to come up to him again to get up next to him again and try one more time and just tell him hey, the police are coming. >> freeze. how far away again are you from him? when you come up next to him. >> once again, i was center line. i was tires just on the center line and so my body was center line and he was 2, 3 feet off the road. so between me and you, no further. >> so 2 or 3 feet off the road? >> no, 2 to 3 feet from the edge. so if this is the edge of the road, he was running down the -- >> and this far away about? >> no further than that. >> 4 feet? >> yeah, something like that. >> are you yelling? >> no, i'm not. i'm not. actually probably softer than i was the first time. >> you said that you spoke to him now this third time when you get up here further down burford
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road. does he stop running at any point up here? >> yeah, so after i get up to him again, i said hey, i just want to talk to you, i want to know what is going on. he finally stops. so great. >> i want to talk to you, i want to know what is going on. okay. go ahead. >> so we finally stopped and asked what is going on. i never says anything to me. he still is looking at me and i'm like this guy is -- this could be volatile, you know. just kind of watching it here. and i asked him again, hey, what is -- what happened down the road, why are people pointing down the road. what running from? he didn't say anything. and he still is kind of in the same spot. he is not -- he is not squaring up or anything, just standing there. and i said hey, the police are on the way and as soon as i said police, he ran down toward holmes.
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>> he turns back and comes back down burford? >> yes, sir. >> and the police are on the way and then you said that he turns and runs. >> as soon as i said the police are on the way, he turned and sprinted down burford 3. >> did that mean anything to you the way he acted when you said that? >> it did. >> what? >> why would you -- if nothing happened down there, totality of the circumstance, if nothing happened down there, if the neighbor wasn't pointing down the road, if i hadn't seen him on video and possibility that he is down there again, all that might be in play. if not, that is fine. if i say the police are on the way and you take off and run, getting away, then it is -- all right, there is -- he may have been caught in that house again and so he is up to -- up to
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probably being caught on that property and is trying to evade, trying to avoiding stopped by police. obviously since he was running. >> trying to avoid being stopped by police. >> uh-huh. >> did you at any point in time when you first approached him and made the first statement to him, hey, stop, police, or when you reversed and said, hey, we just want to talk to you, when you met him up the road for the third time, at any point did that gun come off the seat and shown, brandished anything whatsoever? >> it was not. and as i said, it was a brand new truck. vinyl seats and i've never -- the seats weren't used to having stuff between it. and the shotgun slid out and ended up on the floor and i couldn't grab it if i wanted to. >> did you tell him that you were going to shoot him? >> no. >> when he ran back, what did
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you do at that moment after he ran back down? >> at that moment when i told him the police were on the way, during that time, like i said, this time he stopped, i thought that we were about to communicate, see what is going on. about this time my dad was getting out of the vehicle. i wasn't speaking to dad, he was probably talking to me, i wasn't paying attention to him. so when mr. arbery started running down the road, about that time dad was getting out of the vehicle. obviously to get out of the car seat. and started clamoring into -- climbing into the back of the pickup truck. >> and what did you do? >> watching dad. and then i realized -- >> what do you mean watching dad? >> watching him try to get in the back of the truck. and then i realized that my shotgun was down on the floorboard. mr. arbery is running away. i take the gun out and put it back into my seat, put it back on to the seat.
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that was the only time i grabbed the firl firearm and that was just to put it back on the seat. >> and then what happened? >> i looked down from all that, look up and then there is a black chevy pickup or black pickup at the time. it was on the left side. >> so you are looking down the road. not accurate distance here, but there is a chevy truck. and the driveway is like this. where is the truck? >> the truck was like that on the left side. the way i'm looking at it, on the left side of the road. so -- >> and what are you watching happen? >> so i didn't know where the truck came from.
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i didn't know that if it -- i was assuming that it came from the front of the neighborhood. because i didn't see it. it was just there. when i got done watching dad and getting that gun secure and look up, that truck was there and mr. arbery was at the truck on the left side. and i'm a couple hundred feet away from this. so i know that he was on the truck, he was at the vehicle. i couldn't see what he was doing. but he went to the other side of the vehicle and then turned and then continued again. >> okay. is there anything about his movement with the vehicle that was of interest to you? >> yeah, i didn't know if maybe if this guy was picking mr. arbery up or if he was involved with what happened -- whatever happened down there and he was trying to stop him or i was
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scared -- i thought that it was -- one of my thoughts is that i might hear a gunshot here. what is happening. i was kind of just watching like what is happening on alert. and i watched that happen. and then from where i was, it had gotten in front of the vehicle and continued down the road. >> down towards satilla and holmes? >> yeah. >> all right. cha what did you do? >> got back in my truck. and my dad is seeing this as well and he is telling me to go down there, go down there, go down there. >> as in? >> as in drive the truck down there. >> and did you? >> no. i didn't want to -- i don't know what is going on with this guy. i don't want to escalate the
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situation. my thought at this point is whatever happened up there, there is a likelihood that something has happened because when by the time i tell him police are coming, he goes off running, so something is not right. i don't know what is going on. the cops are coming, my thought at this point, i'm not going to escalate this any further. >> so what is your goal at this point? >> my goal is to let the police know where he is at and just watch what is going on, see where he is going. >> well, you say that you don't want to go back down this way because of what you see. so how much time do you think that it has been, if it is even possible to estimate, from the time that you first tried to talk to him to the last time you tried to talk to him, to the time that he runs back and engages with this black chevy. >> this is an estimate. maybe two minutes.
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if that. two minutes might be a long time. i can't put a time on it. i really don't know. >> what do you do if you don't go that way? >> so i continue -- i decided to g to continue to burford to zellwood, take this time to get my bearings just to figure out what to do, what is going on here. >> okay. so where do you go? >> so you see where it turns to zellwood. so i turn to the left and start going down that road. i'm maybe 10 miles per hour. my dad is in the back of the truck. so with a new hip and stroke and all that, so i'm not going to go fast, you know. so i am making my way toward the
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front of the neighborhood. i decide i'm going to turn on holmes to see more than likely this guy is running back out of the neighborhood. i'm going to go to holmes because i know that he is not behind me, i know that he is not where i could see down holmes, i know where he's been. i can kind of figure out where he is at and then police will be here at any second. if ien counter them, i can tell them where i saw them last. >> so your option is to go to the front of the neighborhood? >> i could have. >> instead you come down holmes. when you get on holmes oig, do you see anything? >> i don't. i don't. >> what happens next? >> i get about a house or two -- halfway down to i call it dog leg, it is a real light turn, has some bushes and trees and
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everything. >> step forward just for a second and tell me if i'm pointing in the area of dog leg. >> yes. >> is that about right? >> yes. >> and i'll note it with kind of a bend in it. what do you mean by a dog leg? >> i can't see the end of the road. >> so it is a official that you can't see past. >> that's correct. >> so you come down holmes you say. and do you see anything? >> i don't. >> what do you do? >> continue -- at this point i'm maybe riding the brake. i'm just sitting. >> at any point in time do you see something? >> yes, about halfway down holmes to the dog leg, i see from arbery is in the apex of the dogleg. turning. i don't see him directly at me, he is in the process of turning at this point. >> is he on the road? >> he is. >> so i'll put this at the side so i have room. but you are saying that you see him turn something. >> that's correct. >> what do you do?
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>> i continue at the same speed. >> do you see the black chuck at truck at this moment? >> i do not. >> meaning when he does the turn to come back down, do you see a truck following him? >> no, there was no truck at that point. >> so what do you do? >> i continue on down holmes. at this point i'm driving towards satilla and for the last time that i saw -- this is just a second or two then i saw mr. arbery because he was in that corner. he was in the middle of the turn and then a few strides and then he was out of sight. >> stop. did you step on the gas and hog tail down the road?
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>> no, i wasn't on the gas, i wasn't on the brake. >> so do you come across the dogleg? >> yes. >> and do you see anything? >> yes. >> what do you see? >> i see the black vehicle at this point is at satilla and holmes. it has at this point turned and is coming to me from satilla and holmes towards zellwood. and i'm coming from zellwood. so i'll put a -- this is a chevy, so i'll put a c right there. and you see it where? >> at the end of the street. and mr. arbery is with the vehicle. >> what side? >> driver's side. >> so this side. >> yes. >> doing what? >> he is running with the truck and as we're getting closer, he
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looks like that he is grabbing the truck. >> what are you thinking? >> it looks like he was trying to get in the door. if he wasn't -- the vehicle wasn't behind him, he wasn't behind the vehicle, he was with the vehicle and he was on the vehicle. there is an open door right there. this was about where the scene happened. and so everything is open but he was with the vehicle. and they are slowly -- they were on the right side. >> on the right side of the road on the correct car side. >> yes. >> and slowly -- he wasn't -- it wasn't a run. he was an idle pace. >> are you at all wondering why mr. arbery is not going
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somewhere other than this week? >> that was my first thought. i don't know why. my thought is why is he attacking a truck. why is he hitting a truck. >> and you are coming toward this truck now. >> i was coming -- yeah, i was coming to the truck. >> are you communicating with this truck at all? >> no. >> doing any kind of signals, arms out the window telling him do anything? >> no. >> is he signaling to you? >> no. >> did you even see the driver? >> no, i did not. >> when you get to the point where you see mr. arbery do the turnaround up here, do you shout anything out at him? >> no. i don't believe i did. >> lean out the window with a
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gun? >> no. >> you estimated two minutes at this phase here. how much time would you say that you spent now coming around to this moment? >> it was probably the same. it was whatever the vehicle -- you know, you are coming through there, i might have been on the gas 2 miles per hour. but it was -- >> can you hear anything, is your dad talking to you, do you hear anything? >> i wasn't paying attention. >> you can have a seat. >> i'm sorry. >> once you see what is happening here, what happens next? >> i'm at the point i'm coming to a stop. i'm in the -- going to satilla drive in the left lane. i'm probably 20 feet, 25, 30 feet from where i'm stopped at the time of shooting.
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i'm back that way. but they are coming down holmes from satilla, and as he is on this truck, they are slowly angling into my lane. >> from the right side of the road, the correct side to go this direction -- >> yeah, angling like that. >> into your lane. >> yeah. so they get to where -- gets to where i'm pretty much they are in the front of my vehicle. i'm at a stop and i'm thinking i hope he doesn't hit my truck. because obviously the driver of chevy, mr. bryan, mr. arbery, i don't think that they see me. they get to within 10 feet of my vehicle and arbery splits from the vehicle and runs down my passenger side between my truck and the ditch.
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>> so this side in the grass -- grass side of the road? >> yes. >> so he runs that way. what about the black truck? >> the black truck pulls off, gets back into his correct lane. and mr. arbery starts running. and then the last thing -- they are heading to the dogleg and last i see is in front of the black truck and black truck is continuing but wasn't accelerating and they broke off from each other. >> you said that they were heading toward the dogleg? >> toward the dogleg toward zellwood. >> did they go around the dogleg? >> yes. >> did you lose sight of them? >> yes. >> what did you do at that moment? >> continued -- i'm not exactly sure exactly what i did at that moment, but i pulled the vehicle back up 10 feet and stopped and parked from there.
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>> pulled the vehicle back up, what do you mean? >> i'm sorry, i continued to go forward, up forward to satilla drive. >> before you moved forward, did you throw it up in reverse and start trucking backwards to go -- >> i did not. >> why not? >> once again, i don't want to escalate the situation. this is getting out of hand. this guy now looks like that he is trying to get in this vehicle, verified from what i suspected on burford. and in my past experiences with him, no, i'm not -- i don't want to get involved in this, i don't want to deal with this unless i have to. >> as they passed you, as mr. arbery passed you, did you roll the window down and hang the shot gun out the window? >> no. >> did you aim it at him? >> i did not. >> did you yell at him or say anything to him? >> i don't believe i did.
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no, i didn't. >> you get to the end of where you said that you parked. >> yes, sir. >> so now you are down here, i'll just move it over. you are parked down here. en and here is the dogleg. they are out of sight. why did you park there? >> he is out of sight at this point. they are gone, no longer -- there is nothing going on in front of me. i'm still under the impression that the police are coming. this guy is obviously -- something is not right. he seems dangerous to me, he is trying to get in this vehicle. i'm still under the impression that the police are coming. i can see down to my house, i can see down to this dogleg, i can see burford and the rest of satilla. there is a good chunk of neighborhood and i know where he just left from. if the police come which i would assume would come off of highway 17 and coming down satilla drive
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past my house to where they would encounter me, i could give them a good description of what is happening or where they are at. >> and where is your house compared to where you are seated in your car at that time or where you are parked? >> it is three houses down on satilla. i could see it looking across that open yard. i can see the house. >> and so now you are parked. you've taken that view. what do you do? >> i get out of the vehicle. analyzing, seeing what the situation is, seeing if dad -- what is going on with dad. at that point i said where are the cops, where are the police. and dad said i don't have a phone. well, all right. cops haven't been called, let me grab my phone. i go to reach for my phone and i look back, i don't know if dad yelled or if i was looking down
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the road, but i look down the road and i see mr. arbery running back towards me. >> so he is now coming back across the dogleg? >> yes. yeah, he is visual in the dogleg. >> do you know anything that has happened on the other side of the dogleg? >> i do not. >> but you see him running back towards you. >> yes. >> what happens? >> i yell at him to stop, stop where you are at, hey stop, more of a -- more of -- >> where is he running, where is he running towards you, is he in the road, the grass? >> he is in the road on -- i want to say that he is in the lane.might have been center lane to the center of the same lane, but he wasn't in the grass, he wasn't in the ditch. >> so he is running to you. how far does he get towards you before you start to say stop? >> in the straightaway.
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so probably 30 yards. >> and tell us what do you, show us how you do it. >> so i yell at him stop, stop right there, he is continuing. we were in eye contact. and he is getting closer and hi. he's getting closer. i am thinking he's not look left. he's not looking right. it's not a -- and way he's running, it's not a full sprint, not a jog. bust pay to describe it, you have a runningback, you have got a pass, their staged up, on their toes, ready to bolt. he was in that stance, i guess, or in that run. >> he can to. 30 yards. >> uh-huh. >> you say he's making eye contact? >> he is. >> with you? >> yes. >> you say to stop, stop, stop where you are at. >> he continues, gets to about where you are at from me at this point. and this is -- this is the second, two seconds. >> this is two seconds? >> how long it took from me
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yelling at him to stop to realizing that he is coming to me. >> okay. >> that i need to do something about this. >> okay, at this point. >> he is continuing to still have eye contact. i am at my truck. door is ep to. i am on the inside of my door. he keeps coming, i am grabbing for my shotgun. at this point, he runs back, my dad is yelling at him. >> towards zellwood, on holmes? holmes. >> i knew i was going to do it. that's the permanent. he runs down here to a point. you are saying stop. and then you say he turned around and goes back? >> yes. >> okay. >> yes. >> all right. what do you think -- when did he
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turn? at what point did he turn? >> he was back like i said ten feet from the back of my truck but my action going into my truck is what made him turn, i believe. >> okay. he turns. then what happens? >> starts running back down satilla. i pulled the shut gun out and started going down there to see what's happening. i said, no, i need to stay -- i need to stay where i am at. my dad is up here on the back of the truck. i know what's going on up here. i don't know what's going on down there. and this guy is still irrational. still not -- something is still not right about this. i am going to stay right where i am at. >> okay. >> i put the shotgun right back, back on the door, pick up the phone, call 911. >> okay. >> as soon as i call 91 -- i dial, i pick it up to the ear and i see mr. arbery turn and come back. i don't know how long it took. seconds. it was less than. >> okay. so he has gone back -- when you
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told him to stop the first time on holmes, now he has gone back across the doing leg, up here. back across -- now he's coming back. okay. this is now the second time he's coming back down holmes? >> yes. >> okay. you said you had just given the cell phone do your dad? >> yes. >> how is it that you decided to call 911 at that moment? >> prior to the second -- prior to the encounter i just had with him i asked my dad, i said where are the police? he said he didn't have his phone. and i realized that he has not called 911. and actually, as that was going on i had to crawl into my truck and get to the passenger floorboard where my phone was, it slid off and call 911. as soon as i called 911 i looked and mr. arbery was past the
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doing leg and coming back again. >> when he was coming back from the doing leg did you see anything behind him in. >> no >> did you see the black truck? >> i did not. >> other than mr. arbery, did you see anything? >> no, i was focused on mr. arbery. >> how was he coming back? >> same way that i just mentioned to you prior. he was in a jog, at pace. >> okay. >> like i said, he was like a runningback, like ready to bolt or to move any way he wanted. but he was focused on me. >> all right. now, you have seen the video showing him running towards you. >> yes. >> all right. is that what you believe to be this moment now? >> yeah. this is that moment. >> okay. >> yes. >> as he's running towards you at this moment, what are you thinking? >> that i'm pretty sure that he is going to attack.
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>> what makes you think that? >> the totality of the circumstance, what i just witnessed with the truck, what happened on -- and then his eye contact on me and not looking left or right or pivoting and avoiding where i'm standing -- where i am at on this truck. >> are there, in your mind at that moment are there places that mr. arbery could run to? >> yes. >> are there locations available to run to or through? >> yes. >> like what --? >> yards. there is yards. there is a ditch. the ditch that was right there at that scene is shallow like -- run back to where i saw him with mr. brown's truck, one of the things that kind of threw me off is as they were coming, he
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wasn't blocked. he could have gone into this ditch here. it is a very open yard. it is a very shallow ditch. it is probably from mound to mund four feet wide but maybe two feet deep all way across, and it was dry. you could hop across it. >> at any point do you -- you see in the video, we all see in the video where you raise your shotgun? >> yes. >> do you see that? >> yes. >> do you remember doing that? >> i do. >> why did you do that? >> he was closing in -- at this point i have yelled at him to stop several times. this time again i screamed at him to stop, screamed at him to stop. and he's focused on me, and he's at thisgate where he looks like he is about to run, he has a possibility to get this burst out. if he gets this burst out at this point when i pulled the shot gun i wouldn't have time to react if he wanted to get on me
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or to pull a gun or have a knife or if he wanted to do ill will. at this point, i would -- this is when i needed to show him to -- to deter him to stay -- to do not come at me. >> do you know -- how do you know at this point you have to do that? >> because everything that's happened, him closing in on me. >> how do you know at this point you have to raise the gun or he could be on you like that? >> training. there is a thing called a actualer drill. a 21 foot rule. it has the average person -- it takes 21 feet for somebody to react if somebody -- an average of 21 feet for somebody to react torque pull a weapon and fire two shots at somebody that charges you with a knife or anything like that. mr. arbery is already running. he's at a pretty good clip.
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he's directed at me. he sees that i have a weapon. i am yelling at him to stop. and he's continuing. >> he sees that you have a weapon? >> uh-huh. >> how do you know he sees you have a weapon? what do you do? >> i had the weapon out at this point. i had it down, in a position like this. port arms is what they call it. and it is blatant that i had this shotgun. >> when you raise it at that moment for the reasons that you did, does it have the effect that you hoped it would? >> yes, it did. >> which was what? >> yes, it did. he angled -- he no longer went my direction. >> okay. >> as soon as i drew -- as soon as i drew the weapon on him, you could see in the video that he darts to the left and darts to the right, and then commits to the right. he does that -- seasons he darts, i put the weapon back down and move away from my
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vehicle. i make a distance. i am thinking ease going to go across this yard. >> what if he did? >> i would let him keep on going. let him run on by like i have done on burrford, like i let him do on holmes when him and -- >> you say you let him do it. you mean when you were on burrford and he ran away from you? >> yes. >> you didn't follow him? >> i did not. >> you didn't shoot him? >> no. >> and on holmes, you mean he ran away from our direction? >> that's right. >> you didn't follow him? >> no. >> didn't shoot him. so if he comes around the right side of the truck and decides to bolt through the yard, could -- was the yard open? >> it was. >> and if he did that, what would you do next. you have been watching the testimony of travis mcmichael speaking about the moments
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before the killing of ahmaud arbery in that trial that's happening in brunswick, georgia. the prosecution will cross-examine mr. mcmichael coming up shortly. we will have more coverage of that later on msnbc. for now we turn it over to "deadline: white house," which begins right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. with democratic-led house of representatives today set to draw a line in the sand on the growing public of violent rhetoric coming from its members. the house is now voting to send sewer arizona republican paul gosar for posting a disturbing cartoon depicting him killing congresswoman alexandria ocasio cortez and attacking president biden. the house is also voting to remove gosar from the committees he serves on, including the powerful oversight committee where he serves

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