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tv   Ayman  MSNBC  November 13, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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remember that feeling as congress continues to rebate as reforms to immigration are a part of building back better. that is all the time i have tore today. i am alicia menendez. i will see you back here tomorrow for more american voices. for now i hand it over to my colleague. ayman. >> taylor swift is in the building. you have to get out of the building before the fans line up to get pictures of her after saturday night live. >> will i try to get out of the building or find taylor? >> maybe you'll waik make your way town the 8th floor. cooperate or obstruct. 20 years ago, the bush administration chose to cooperate. steve bannon will surrender on monday. how will this impact the january 6th investigation. plus. village laept justice, how
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self-defense is being claimed and abused in both the kyle rittenhouse and ahmaud aubrey trial. i will speak to actor and political activist and you a tore kal penn from whies cattle to the white house. we will talk about his new book "you can't be serious." we try to be at least. let's get started. hey there, everyone, i want to start tonight with a list that i want you to see. these are some of the bush administration officials that testified for the 9/11 commission. secretary of state colin powell, defense secretary donald rums field. george bennett, president bush invites dick cheney at the time spoke to the commission though not under oath, they all cooperated with the investigation. now, contrast that with the former president trump and members of his commission. how they respond.
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instead of cooperation from trump and his allies, we've seen delay tactics and attempts to tie up the committee in court. in a word, stonewalling, but that may soon begin to change. former trump adviser steve bannon was indicted with two counts of contempt of congress. bannon is expected to surrender and appear in court on monday. while it is not clear exactly what the committee hopes to learn from bannon. it's no wonder why they want to hear from the guy who said this the day before the rally. >> it's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen. okay. it's going to be quite extraordinarily different. all i can say is strap in. the war room of passe. have you made this happen. tomorrow it's game day. so strap in, let's get ready. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving. it's going to be quick.
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>> that was on january 5th the die before the insurrection happened. even if he is convicted and punished for not cooperating, he still might not testify in front of congress. but his indictment may serve to put pressure on other members of the trump administration the committee wants to hear from, mark meadows, trump's chief of staff on the day of the attack, failed to appear for the scheduled deposition this past friday. again that could lead to his being held in contempt as well. it's worth noting, he had the need to cooperate with the congressional investigation. believe me. here he is back in 2018 as a congressman complaining that the then deputy attorney general rod rosenstein had not complied with the subpoena. watch. >> for nine months, we've asked for documents. that's all we want are the documents. what we found is not only have subpoenas been ignored, but information has been hidden and the efforts have been stonewalled. >> sound familiar? it's that word again.
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stonewalled. now the january 6th committee's investigation is one avenue by which people are being held accountable for january 6th. there is also the doj investigation and prosecution that did the storming of the capitol. you may remember over the past weeks, myself included, have been critical of the low-level charges and sentences handed out. now it appears the doj's work may have shifted into a new phase a. new jersey man was sentenced to 41 months for assaulting a police officer. the longest sentence handed out so far. and an alabama man can face 37 to 46 months in prison after he pled guilty to bringing molotov cocktails to the capitol in his truck. it may be a part of a strategy to make a larger strategy against those planning january 6th. that's what makes the fight over former president trump's documents from that time period so crucial. the committee had been scheduled to receive a tranche of these
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documents yesterday. but that's been delayed until at least the end of the month by an appeals court while trump and his lawyers continue to fight their release. the republicans positioning themselves to potentially retake both the house and the senate in next year's mid-terms. trump is looking to run out the clock on this committee and prevent a full picture of what happened january 6th from emerging. the question now in front of everyone here is will he succeed? we got a lot to break down. i got a pair of brilliant legal minds to help many edo that. joining me the senior legal affairs writer at politico and msnbc u.s. legal analyst joy vance. joyce, i want to start with you. a couple weeks ago, you and i were talking. i was guilty at the time of saying to you, why are we not seeing more charges. why is stephen bannon not held in contempt or being indicted? we have our answer. you were one saying, be patient,
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we're seeing this play out. now we're seeing it, he was indicted for not presenting documents and for him to be convicted doj would have to improve he was operating with proper intent. what happens if he says he was doing what his attorney told him to do? and will this indictment get the committee any closer to testimony and getting that information from bannon? >> well, second question first, no, this indictment won't force bannon to testify. what it does is it punishes him for the contempt if he's convicted. in terms of getting a conviction here. doj lays out it case in the indictment and the cases that bannon did nothing when faced with the subpoena. he was required to show up. he was required to provide documents or at least to provide a log that set out why he wasn't providing documents, what sort of privilege he was asserting. the house rules require him to testify while he's asserting the privilege. he did none of those things.
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so it seems abundantly clear doj will prove its case as you point out, the issue will be whether there is a defense he relied on counsel or some other sort of defense and those sort of situations get tested when they're purely legal issues by the judge when they're factual issues in front of a jury. >> josh, the question now, you have a number of trump officials who have been suspended. do you think bannon's indictments here could encourage more of them to cooperate? i say that not just from a political viewpoint or sympathetic viewpoint they may have for trump. bannon has the time and the resources to deal with fines, legal fees. he can take this on into a protracted legal battle. some others may not, other individuals may not have those resources. is that a factor? >> yeah. i think that is a factor. i think figures like mark meadows, the former chief of staff have to be thinking do i
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want to go down this route that steve bannon is facing and be charged with criminal offenses. now they're misdemeanors. they're not the most serious charges anybody can face and there are questions of politics. some of the lower level folks, they may decide, look, i just don't want to go through this as you say, i don't want to spend hundreds of thousands in legal fees. the higher-level folks, some may see it as a badge of honor. clearly bannon does, at least at this point. so they have to make that calculus. i think it's a much more stark choice today than a day or two ago. >> i wouldn't say if some or bannon creates a legal defense fund and uses it as a rallying cry among his base. the choice is to drag this out as long as they possibly can with the hopes that republicans can take back control of congress and then essentially they can kill the january 6th committee. that's certainly the view of one of two republicans on that committee.
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watch this. >> i think there is slightly no doubt that would happen. i think that's why, frankly, the trump folks are trying to stall. they don't have a claim of executive privilege. they know the answers aren't going to be great for them. so their hope is to make it to swearing-in next year or the following. >> what do you think is a realistic time line for the committee still to accomplish its objectives of trying to get to the bottom and the information that they're going after here? how much time do they have? >> there is no doubt that it's a crunch. the committee is clearly working full speed ahead, though. they've already talked to over 150 witnesses and the real fight is the fight we see going on in the district of colombia court of appeals to see whether national archives can turn over tranches of trump documents to the committee through that mechanism. but that said, this fight with bannon and this move by the justice department to intervene and indict bannon will certainly speed up their access to
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witnesses who were perhaps wavering. i think they'll make the best use of the time that they have here. >> josh, let's talk about some of the sentencings that we're seeing coming out of the january 6th cases and the rioters there. there was initially some frustration, including myself. i expressed it on this program, including from the judge in some of these casings i should note. the cases we were seeing a few week ago didn't quite match the rhetoric we were hearing from the department of justice about how serious what happened on january the 6th was. we're now getting into some much bigger cases. do you think that reflects an overall strategy on the part of the doj here? >> i'm not sure that it's a strategy. i think that it's primarily the natural rhythm of an investigation of this size. ayman, it's about 700 people charged so far. that number may go up north of 1,000 eventually. and it's pretty normal to see some of the lowest-level players. people that didn't do much other
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than walk into the building that they're going to try to plead out their cases relatively quickly and the cooperators, who are the initial people that plead guilty in the more serious cases, usually their sentenceing is put off until you see what they say at trial. you're right, just in the last week or two, we've started to see some more serious sentences primarily for people that assaulted police officers that did actual physical harm to other people. we've seen sentences three four years and we've seen judges say, wise up, if you are thinking about it, you maybe want to plead guilty and get it three or four years instead of five or six or seven years. >> joyce, "the washington post" columnist jennifer reuben writes she thinks these tougher sentences for the january 6ry 80ers quote should freak trump out and the effort to place trump at the center of an illegal scheme is coming into focus. what do you make of that? is it premature? how would an assault on a police officer for instance help investigators in a potential effort to prove that trump was
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at the center of a larger conspiracy around january 6th? >> the core of this case has always been figuring out whether what trump was doing involved trump and his inner circle or whether somehow this is a larger conspiracy that brings people to washington and ends up leading them to storm the capitol. so, it's very difficult to discern where doj is on those matters from the cases that we're seeing right now that involve acts from individuals. the one thing we have learned this week, ayman, is that doj is more than capable of conducting an investigation into the run-up to an indictment in total secrecy. so what doj is doing, i think we don't know. we do know whatever it is, they're not going to let us know until they're ready to indict. >> i will heed your advice and be patient, thank you very much for joining us this evening. greatly appreciate it. we will have a lot more later in the show about what it means to be indicted for contempt of
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congress and why mark meadows could be next. first we will look at biden's trillion dollar spending bill. plus, we will ask congressman about the plan for inflation. stick around.
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, house democrats have scheduled a vote next week for the $1.75 build back spending
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bill. there is reason to expect another postponement. even if it does pass, it awaits a familiar foe. wednesday manchin suggested numbers may require delaying social spending until next year. the white house rejects that the build back better bill would accelerate inflation. yesterday i spoke can jared bernstein, a member of the economic advisers about, watch. >> the impact of the infrastructure bill in 2022 is about zero. so you can't really cogently argue that that is some help exacerbating the inflation that we're seeing. that is much more a story of 2021, the pandemic-induced supply chain problems that we're trying quite aggressively to help solve. >> so what happens now? will manchin's objection be enough to permanently sink the bill, a member of the congressional caucusus,
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congressman ro khan na. talk a little about the build back better bill and whether or not we can expect a vote on it soon. where did things stand today? will a vote happen and will it pass or are there enough so-called pod rat democrats like joe manchin in the house that could help defeat it? >> it will absolutely pass. it should be the pay less plan. this will provide relief for inflation. working families will pay less for child care, less for insurance, less for prescription drugs and they will get a tax cut so that they'll have more money in their pocket for groceries and gas. every democrat who cares about inflation, frankly every american who cares about inflation should be for the bill. >> i know given senator manchin's objection to traditional spending, do progressives like yourself they feel they made a mistake in agreeing to pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill without having a firm commitment from
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manchin and senator cinema? did that cause leverage until you get it passed? >> no, i don't think we ever had to leverage to force the hand of an independent senator who represents a state. what we got was a commitment from the president and i trust the president and we got was a framework that all 50 senators are going to support. that's from the white house. i am confident the white house will be able to deliver and will get this over the finish line. >> so, how do you and i played jared bernstein one of the economic advisers to the president. i know you tweeted about this. how do you rebut manchin's charge build back better will negatively affect it. elaborate for us. >> well, it's going to actually lower costs. it's going to bring down prescription drug costs. it's going to bring down child care costs and elder care costs. then even from an economics perspective, larry somers, who
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has been the biggest voice warning against inflation, says the build back better plan should pass because it's fully paid for. it's over ten years. it's not inflation spending right now. so economists have said this is not going to cause inflation and common sense tells you that it's going to lower costs for the working cas. >> well, let me play for you if i can larry somers on with my colleague andrea mitchell predicted the stimulus package could set off inflationary pressures we have fought seen in a generation. as i mention on thursday, he told my colleague andrea mitchell the stimulus injected into the economy it was necessary, but listen to what he said. >> what we infused was very, very large. it was predictable it would lead to excess demand and inflation. that's unfortunately what has turned out. there was never a macroeconomic
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analysis demonstrating this was an appropriate plan. it came out of a whole range of political machinations. much more in congress. >> i want to give you a chance to respond to that what do you make of that argument? did congress force president biden into spending more money uninterpretationally as larry summers was saying this inflation? >> i have a lot of respect for larry summers. this was a president responding to need, the working families in this country were desperate for help. we provided stimulus checks to those working families so they can make represent and weren't evicted and there were a tremendous others who said it was absolutely the right policy. there are a lot of factors for inflation. no one could have predicted the delta variant. no one could have predicted the supply chain disruptions.
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no one could have predicted the demand would be so much larger on that the supply. people weren't able to go out until they were buying goods. so there are complex factors. the important thing is what larry somers is saying ab build back better, he is saying pass it, this is son census that it will ease inflation. >> congressman, what are you doing in congress on a saturday night? >> i'm back if. i was home all weekend. but we're working on build back better. we're work and i'm excited to go in monday. >> are there others with you? are you alone in i didn't know you can get in congress saturday. i guess if you are a member of congress you can do that. >> there are folks working hard this weekend to deliver for the president. it's always good to be on. >> we appreciate your effort, thank you so much for joining us this evening. next inside the extraordinary life of actor kalperson and his new book of his impressive book to politics
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actor and political activist by kal penn. you may remember him from the harold and kumar series as well as house and designated survivor. penn enjoyed serving as a member of the staff before being appointed to the arts and humanities. his new book, you can't be serious, details his career. as a man of indian dissent, he managed careers in hollywood and washington. congratulations to you on this book, "a remarkable journey" let me start off asking you, at what time does someone say, it's time i have something to say. are an actor. you have that story and the story of being the son of immigrants.
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>> yeah. >> and breaking those barriers. then on to have of that, you go and work in the white house and you lecture at universities? >> sure. >> tell me about that. >> so, look, this may sound a little crazy now that i have written the book. for the longest time, i have that feeling of imposter syndrome. i feel i don't actually have a story to tell, the constant feeling i can't believe i am blessed enough to be working in hollywood, on a political campaign. to be working in the halls of the white house. it didn't mean i wasn't proud of the hard work i have done to get to that place. but after those, too sort of journey was under way, i didn't think there was necessarily a story to tell. probably about four years ago, it wasn't a big epiphany. you know who, as a 25-year-old, i never had a book to point to, to say here's a young man of color how it might be to fet into these fields or what it might look on the inside. i said let me tap into that and in the pandemic, the world is not made up of mutually
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exclusive choices, people realize they have another thing to add what they want to do anyway. i thought maybe my story can be a part of that narrative for a lot of people. i was so excited to write and share everything. >> one of the headlines that came out over the last couple weeks, was your personal engagement. i know this is not a congratulation by the way on that if you have survived the pandemic, can i tell you, you can survive. >> exactly. >> so you got off to a good start. let me say this i know it's not a coming out book the book as you are saying is supposed to be a toolkit for perhaps other brown men and women elsewhere in the world. was that hard to pro i that toolkit for those people and share your own personal stories? something so personal? >> no. in fact, one of the easiest chapters was chapter 18 how we met in d.c. it's one of the stories my friend love the most. putting book together, it was important to me, was i wanted to tell the story, whether you read it or are doing the audio book.
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i want somebody to feel we're having a beer toke. if you are a young brown men that wants to know what these worlds are like, i want it to be accessible to you. even if that's not your background and up being him i talk about my dad moving here with $12 in his pocket, start ac grad program across the river in new jersey. i talk about what it was like working for the first black president. i talk about there are a lot of stories about racism in hollywood that were really tough to write because, a, you got to rack up your 22-year-old memory and what were those stories like when somebody says, go home and put a turbin on your head, where is your indian accentaccent. why do you speak so good? i spent time calming people, do you remember this day, what do you remember happening? i don't want to put word in your mouth. personal relationships are exciting. celebrating how far hollywood and d.c. have come just in the
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lost 20 years are leaps and bound to go. i had the opportunity to do so much i wanted to put that in concept. >> it's striking how much you around your dad look alike. i had to look at the picture when your dad was leaving india, that sendoff, first of all, is that kal? it turned out to be your dad. tell me about a moment in the book i personally enjoyed when you started telling your parent you wanted to be an actor and your mom's reaction. she was embarrassed because at the time we're not sure you could make a career out of acting? >> so my parent like a lot of immigrants who came post-1965. my folks were a part of this wave of immigration that allowed, especially people studying medicine and engineering. they tended to come from south says asia. that's because we don't have american born doctors. it's not anything inher represent in our dna. sadly. my parent realized that early. i said i wanted to be an actor. they said that's obviously not
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why we moved to america. then i go off and do these story movies. but there was a time in putting this work together. i called them and i said i want to remember what it was that you were so embarrassed about. was it the pressure from your friend, that i was doing things that didn't give respect to the family or the community? my parents said you exaggerate everything. i said, i'm an actor. as immigrants we didn't know this was a career or a life our son could have in america. so we were scared for your future. i was so glad i talked to them and put that in the book. it book end what the american dream can be, what it's like for so many people. how it falls short for many of us and comes later in life for others. >> as i mentioned, you had the privilege of having different careers. one of the moments that stood out to me was in 2012 during the dnc, the democratic national convention, you were asked to give a speech. it follied the republican national convention in which clint eastwood addressed an
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empty chair. watch this. >> yeah. >> i've worked on a lot of fun movies, but my favorite job was having a boss who gave the order to take out bin ladin and who is cool with all of us getting gay marriages. so thank you, invisible man in the chair for that. >> all right. it was such a remarkable moment just on so many levels. but first of all, tell me, what was it like to deliver a speech at the dnc. what were you trying to say with that moment in which again you made reference to gay marriage. >> yes, sure. so look i have the privilege of serving as president obama's youth leader for almost two-an-a-half years and world to help the asian community and arts community. after that time was done and as i was transitioning into the president's arts committee, jim messina pulled me asaid and said we. you to speak at the dnc. that's kind of how they left it. i said what do you want me to
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talk act? they said we think you'd have some interesting stories to tell. i knew immediately the stories i had to tell were the people i had the privilege of meeting with those two-an-a-half years he white house. i was for the affordable repeal act, don't ask, don't them. the dream act, which fell short by really five democratic votes at the time and as the son of immigrants, that was a really meaningful brutal day, but those were all the stories i want to tell. we had so many opportunity to talk to people whose lives i lives were affected by that. putting that together and the week before, no disrespect, i love him as an actor, i went up 57d made a bizarre speech to an empty chair yelling at a fake barack obama. i have to slide that in there. you need to have some levity. >> i have to ask you before you go, a, would you ever go back in government? and what do you think about the state of politics across the country? >> so, obviously, it's rough when you turn on the tv 5r7bd read articles and talk to your
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crazy uncle at thanksgiving. i know i will. i don't know first and foremost, i'm lucky fans are willing to let me into their homes again. people that watch our show. they're involved in their own communities. one of the things that i remain hope. about having worked in the white house is the opportunity that we have to really make a difference and i know that sound hokie. but the stuff that i worked on wasn't sexy enough to be on came i cable news. it wasn't vitriolic enough to be on twitter. the types of people i was meeting were people that cared about their communities. when they made their voices heard, they may have gotten 100% than they wanted. rediscovering that is something i am trying to do in this age of tweeting something nasty because it feels good. >> kal penn, congratulations on this book. we're great to have you. >> thank you for having me. >> in our tvs and government as well. congratulations. coming up, the bizarre
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antics inside the courtrooms of two different trials with a very similar theme. white vigilante justice. stick around for more on the case of ahmaud aubrey and kyle rittenhouse. more on those times next. d kyle rittenhouse. more on those times next ♪♪ ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ [music: sung by craig robinson]
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. this week the eyes of the nation were trance fixed only other eyes in the country. in wisconsin, a fiery day of arguments in the trial of kyle rittenhouse. the trail for three white men charged with the killing of ahmaud aubrey last year wrapped up its second week. i want to talk about these two trials together for a moment. let's start with the case aahmaud aubrey. the three men that killed them and their neighbor william roddey brian claimed they did so in self defence. this happened after they chased aubrey, suspecting him of bug larrizing a nearby house under
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construction. they told the police they were attempting to hold aubrey under a citizens arrest. but when police arrived, aubrey was dead and he had no stolen objects found on his person. in georgia, where aubrey was killed, the state citizens arrest law has an ugly, ugly history and allowed a person to detain someone because they believed there was a crime. that law was enacted under shrivery, giving people to terrorize black americans. while georgia overhauled the law, laws just like it still exist all over the country until this day. now rittenhouse's story shares some simmelkjaer laritys. the confrontation ensued. he told the court he had no choice but to shoot in self
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defends. in both cases, the defendants, all white men took the law into their own hand, deputizing themselves with an authority they did not have. while these men will all have their day in court. the men they merely suspected of committing crimes, they're not going to have their day in court. but village laeptism isn't a few phenomena. you remember george zimmerman, the neighborhood watch coordinator who killed 17-year-old trayvon martin in 2012. zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person in his gated neighborhood in florida. he ignored advice from police and shot martin, later shooting the teenager in i'm sure you guessed it so-called self-defense. now all of these men sought out the very conflict they later claimed they were forced to protect theblgs themselves again. in 2014, zimmerman was
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acquitted. the eyes of the nation watches what goes on inside courtrooms in georgia and wisconsin. it's not just four white men in trial. white vigilanteism is on trial
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as well. . closing arguments are expected monday in the trial of kyle rittenhouse. tony evers announced 500 national guard troops will be on standby. we will talk to someone inside
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that courtroom in kenosha, wisconsin, excuse me there, sierra gillespie. she joins me now. it's great to have you with us. i know the judge has been making all kind of headlines, even before this case began, quite frankly, before barring the use of the word victim during the trial. he has only continued to attract more attention throughout the trial as well. this thursday he sparked backlash for a remark about asian food and his attempt to honor veterans allowed the courtroom bin laudining a witness for the defense. that led to intense criticism on social media. but how is the judge's behavior playing out where it really matters? that's where you have been, inside the courtroom? >> reporter: >> yes, things have been contentious inside the courtroom. people are believing the judge is leaning more toward the defense. we saw this week he had quite a
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bit of back and forths with prosecutors and the attorney calling him out, actually yelling at him multiple times, yelling at the jury, telling him to get out of the courtroom to berate the assistant attorney. things are incredibly contentious as commentators across the country are looking at this case here, a lot of people are believing that the judge is kind of leaning more toward the defense. >> i know on friday the prosecution asked the judge to allow the jury are i to consider lesser charges. is there anything you can tell us about that request, how it might impact what we can see play out next week at all? >> so there is something very key here for the prosecution actually something that the judge sided with them about in that they can now include provocation. they can actually say that rittenhouse was provoking joseph rosenbaum who was one of the victims. in that case it would be
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rittenhouse's duty to back off or not shoot self-defense as he claims. that's a win for them on those side of things. as far as lesser charges, it's a fail/safe for the judge and the prosecution, j you to make sure that something can happen here as far as rittenhouse being charged. so if the jury goes into deliberation next week and they can't all come to a consensus on the original charges, these lesser charges are more likely for them to agree on rather the judge explained this to rittenhouse, himself, on friday, basically saying it's more likely you will have a guilty investigator with the charges included, it's less likely you will have a retrial. rittenhouse accepted these terms. >> aside from reporting from wisconsin, your home state as i mentioned, the governor put national guard troops on standby ahead of the verdict. how is the community doing in kenosha generally? do you got a sense the community is on edge in anticipation of what might happen next week?
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>> reporter: honestly, yes, it's very intense inside the courtroom and outside the courtroom. almost every day i was there, there were protesters pretty much for both side, some advocating for rittenhouse saying it was self-defense, he was well within his right. he was protectingments and many other members of the community seeing this is a complete disgrace, kind of what you were talking about ahead of the commercial break there, white vigilanteism. so things are very tense here. who ill the capital city of madison and milwaukee were a little left leaning, the rest of the state is traditionally more right. so it's pretty much understandable that governor evers would call in the national guard here to make sure after that unrest in kenosha when these shootings happened was just a year ago. >> all right. cy sierra gillespie, thank you for being our eyes and years. we greatly appreciate it. in georgia, the trial of
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three men accused of murdering ahmaud aubrey. an attorney for one of the defendants, man, he came under fire after he complained that there were too many black pastors in the courtroom. watch this moment. >> the idea that we're going be serially bringing these people in to sit with the victim's family one after another, obviously there's only so many pastors they can have. if it's pastor al sharpton, that's fine, that's it. we don't want any other black pastors coming in or jesse jackson, whoever was in here earlier this week, sitting with the victims' family trying to influence the jury's case. >> he later apologized to anyone inadvertently offended by those comments. joining me is a criminal defense attorney who has been closely following this case. janet, thank you for joining us. i just played that sound from the attorney from one of the
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defendants. arbery's father joined my colleague reverend al sharpton and said this. >> it's insulting to my family. thee three white men killed our son for nothing. they give us peace and prayer. >> what did you make of those comments from the defense attorney? is that unusual behavior to see in a courtroom generally? >> no. i mean, victims have their family, a support system. it part of a criminal trial. i cannot tell you how many trials i've had where there's just a packed courtroom. no, it was beyond the pale. his apology was also a nonapology. there's 11 white jurors and one black juror. this is a community with 25% african-american population.
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it feels like they're cooking the books. to say to that family you can't have your support system here after your son was killed, it's disgusting, quite frankly. >> i was going to say, it feels like it was putting salt in the wound. this is part of a support system for grieving family that i'm sure have having a very hard time reliving the the crime and hearing the testimony and hearing you can't have your support structure in the courtroom. it was a very bizarre and troubling moment. there are two key issues at the heart of this trial that really bound, you know, cases that we've seen before and that is self-defense. it was brought up in george zimmermann's case, we're seeing it in wisconsin. it's certainly at play in georgia. can you explain for our viewers those at home based on what you've seen in the trial so far, will the so-called self-defense argument be successful? >> not in georgia, i don't think, because there are two
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parts to the self-defense. first they're saying we created the situation bull we did it -- but we did it because it was a citizens arrest. it wasn't until they lawyered up that they came up with this concept. basically they said we don't know if this guy did anything wrong, we had never seen him before but we went ahead and did this and now they want to avail themselves of self-defense and i think the prosecutors did a really good job of eliminating that saying you guys hemmed him in, said you were going to trap him like a rat, they said provocative things to the police when they didn't think they were going to be charged. i don't think they've shown self-defense. now, in wisconsin maybe not as much. >> we're going to have to see how that plays out. all eyes will be on those two states and what comes out of those verdicts. janet johnson, thank you so much. greatly appreciate your insights this evening.
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up next, switching gears to another important legal battle. britney spears is reclaiming her life. and still to come with my saturday night panel. could former white house chief of staff mark meadows be next? we'll tell you more about that next. next? we'll tell you more about that next rty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? you got it. ♪ liberty, liberty - liberty, liberty ♪ uh, i'll settle for something i can dance to. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ with voltaren arthritis pain gel. my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel
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♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪
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britney spears is finally
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free. the pop star released from a 13-year personal and family conservatorship. now she's ready to take back her life, including the possibility of creating new music. >> reporter: britney spears waking up in control of her life for the first time in nearly sh -- 14 years. on instagram she called it the best day ever. fans erupting outside of the courthouse when the judge ordered an immediate end to britney's conservatorship, both of her person and estate. >> i'm at a loss for words. we've been wanting this for so long. >> the 39-year-old star now free to move on with her life as she pleases. >> she can make her financial decision, professional decisions
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and perhaps most importantly, she can make her own personal decisions. ♪ hit me baby one more time ♪ >> reporter: the singer's case igniting a nationwide conversation around conservatorships in the u.s. from california to capitol hill. congressman barry moore tweeting too many americans have been wrongfully subjected to predator conservatorships. britney's attorney applauding the pop star's courage. >> not only is this momentous for britney, but she helped shine a light on conservatorships and guardianships from coast to coast. >> reporter: in a recent change in tone, he pushed for an immediate termination of his daughter's conservatorship. he was suspended from his role on the heels of accusations of monitoring her every move. jamie's legal team did not comment on friday's hearing but
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previously denied any wrong doing adding jamie encourages a full and transparent examination. whether the singer's attorney pursues an investigation is now entirely up to britney. >> britney as of today is a free woman and she's an independent woman. that was emily acada reporting. as mentioned, as many as 1.3 million americans live under strict conservatorships. time will only tell whether her case will provide a precedent for those living under strict and sometimes unnecessary guardianships coming to light. britney is free it be britney. coming up, we are going to dive deep near the concept of celebrities changing the narrative and reclaiming their own identity, specifically when it comes to body image. plus, republicans have mainly stayed out of the spotlight when it comes to infrastructure talks but the backlash that

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