tv Hallie Jackson Reports MSNBC November 12, 2021 12:00pm-1:00pm PST
affordable internet in the last 10 years. and this is emmanuel, a future recording artist, and one of the millions of students we're connecting throughout the next 10. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students, past... and present, can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities. as we come on the air on msnbc here. president biden finishing up a meeting entering president biden's meeting with his cabinet at the white house. reporters in the room with the president facing a lot of questions but notably no comments on a couple of key issues, like, for example, the person you're about to see. why the president's new pick to head the fda might be doa in the
senate. one democrat already saying no. guess who it is. we'll tell you in a second. the january 6th committee ready to reprimand a no-show witness. what we're learning about the committee's next move and when that might happen. i'm hallie jackson in washington where it's all going down in the last couple minutes and we want to start at the white house where president biden is meeting with his cabinet to talk about doing something with that new trillion dollar infrastructure bill he is set to sign into law on monday. we're also learning something else, nominating former fda commissioner to the same day he had at the end of the biden administration. not even a day into it a rocky road ahead. joe manchin saying his nomination is an insult to the many families and individuals who have had their lives changed forever as a result of addiction. i could not support his nomination in 2016 and i cannot support it now.
nbc kelly o'donnell is at the white house. let me set aside for a second the fda commissioner back and forth and what we heard from the president and his cabinet meeting. the plans to move forward once the president signs the infrastructure bill into law. >> a bit of a flashback to his own time as vice president when then president obama appointed him to deal with being sort of the task person in a big legislation piece. and the president wants to have a person inside the white house who will implement the infrastructure sort of the day to day of how is that money being utilized. how are the various decisions being made with all the different agencies involved and it is a huge task. it is an enormous investment. often he says largest in a generation for the various kinds of hard infrastructure plus broad band and more. the president says he will name
someone who is currently outside the administration to serve in this role. he said president obama had given him the nickname the sheriff when it comes to, you know, times gone by. we don't know if that will be the nickname he gives this person, but it will be an implementer, a czar, if you will, a coordinator who will handle a lot of the implementation. that will be important because inside the white house they'll want to know how are those contracts being handled. how is the coordination happening? a lot of it will be with pete buttigieg the secretary of transportation for sure but is there a way to bring it inside the white house. >> president biden linking his broader agenda, that bigger climate and social spending bill to get worked out to fighting inflation which is something that a lot of people are talking about right now, particularly after a series of reports we got this week on how everything is getting more expensive, it's not just your imagination. >> all the new stats that keep coming in are numbers that are painting a picture that this is
a very real pain point for americans as they're buying groceries, filling up their tank and trying to keep their homes warm as the temperatures change. the white house has said this will be short term, but some of the data suggests it could hang in there longer. so part of what the president and his team are arguing is that if they can get the build back better agenda their name for their big sweeping piece of legislation, if they can get that through, they argue that it would lower costs for things like child and elder care. it would lower taxes for moderate earners in the country and by doing that, plus with some job creation, that that would make things more affordable. it's not directly dealing with inflation, but it would deal with the practical realities of if you have more money to spend, can you then spread that around all the different bills you have to pay. they're looking for a way to say things will get better, even though inflation is a very real concern right now and they don't have a magic switch they can flip to reduce inflation
pressures right now. and presidents often get credit for a good economy and they get blamed when things are more difficult. and the president is in that tight spot right now. >> kel, very quickly we set up the stumble out of the gate around on this nomination to lead the fda, what is the white house saying? >> the white house is saying that this nominee has a proven track record having been in that job before. they also argue that concerns that joe manchin has raised, his home state has had an opioid crisis like many places and ties to the pharmaceutical industry are going to be his stumbling block to say he will not be a vote for dr. califf. but they will argue that that is not going to be the only consideration and that he has got the right credentials and the experience. the problem is we've been talking in many contexts about
50 democrats. so, how do they get it? can they find a republican who would vote for this nominee? can they find another way to get there. it's a challenge. and it may be part of the reason that they have waited until the end of the statutory period because they've had dr. woodcoc in there as long as the law would allow it and now they put forward a nominee and the process allows the clock to keep going until he can be confirmed, if he can be confirmed and it does set up a new challenge for this white house. >> kelly o'donnell live for us at the white house. thank you very much. we want to get to capitol hill now where another former member of the trump white house is facing possible contempt of congress for refusing to show up today for a deposition by the january 6th select committee. we're talking about meadows. so, as of where we stand right now leigh ann, mark meadows didn't show today, right?
we know that based on sources. the january 6th select committee has seemed to signal pretty strongly they will move forward with contempt of congress from people who don't show up. where are we now? do we expect to hear more from the committee or its chairman? >> well, hallie, i was checking my phone right before you came to me because i'm trying to see if the select committee actually sent anything out yet. we're hoping that they do give some direction on what happens next. we confirmed that mark meadows did not show up today and we also know the select committee yesterday threatened criminal contempt referral if mark meadows did not show up. it is in the committee's hands to make a move. they indicated that they're willing to do that, but they haven't done that yet. but mark meadows the latest to cooperate and steve bannon referred to the full house for department of just as few weeks
ago. we also know that jeffrey clark, a former trump administration justice official has also declined to cooperate. the committee hasn't acted on his lack of cooperation yet either. so, hopefully by the end of the day we'll get some sort of insight into what the committee plans to do and when but we just haven't gotten that yet, hallie. >> with mark meadows refusing to cooperate, one thing that is important to note is this is what happened with steve bannon. a similar argument being put forward by mark meadows attorney and they basically said he wants, you know, we're squus following instructions from him as it relates to this claim of executive privilege to let the courts decide. steve bannon got slapped with contempt of congress and intended to be a signal to other witnesses to get onboard. they're not messing around essentially. what does the process look like from here as leigh ann is reporting, things move as we
expect them to. >> right. so if this happens the way leigh ann expects it to they refer mark meadows to the justice department just like they did steve bannon. the question there lies with the justice department. we have yet to see what they will do with steve bannon whether or not they will actually investigate, prosecute, hold him to contempt of congress. this would be a first where they would be holding someone in contempt of congress who would asserted executive privilege. >> who was in the white house, julia, right? >> i'm sorry -- yes, that's a big part of this. >> steve bannon was not in the white house at the time of january 6th. mark meadows was employed there. he was the chief of staff at the time. >> that's right. it could be that the justice department by merrick garland being a u.s. attorney in the washington field office. someone there might say let's look and see how the courts decide on this issue of
executive privilege. right now, of course, we know that a d.c. circuit court is waiting until november 30th to hear oral arguments from the trump side about how they plan assert privilege and from a lower court this week when a judge in the d.c. court that said plaintiffs are not kings and the plaintiff is not president making it very clear that the former president cannot hide behind the executive privilege argument. we have yet to see what the justice department will decide about that and what the d.c. court will say about that. trying to move forward on this clear path setting up a jail within congress is then to send these referrals to the justice department as a criminal referral and a big question there of how this justice department will respond. >> good point, leigh ann caldwell.
julia, i think you're heading out on leave soon. >> this is probably the last day i'll be on msnbc before we welcome our second little girl. >> can't wait. next time i talk to you on the air, you'll have two little ones instead of just one. i really appreciate it. take care. next up, new audio capturing former president trump defending those hang mike pence chants heard on january 6th. let me say that again former president trump defending those chants. we're talking with one of the reporters who knows this story well. plus, in wisconsin the prosecution request just denied by the judge in the kyle rittenhouse case and why the defense thinks that may be good news for their client. this afternoon britney spears could finally be free of her conservatorship. a key court hearing about to start next hour in los angeles. we have a live report from outside that courtroom coming up. up.
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democrats in the house today taking the first step to formally reprimand gosar. 60 colleagues signing on to censure the texas republican after he edited a video. >> it's so important for us to not formalize this kind of conduct and that's what has been happening. the fact that the minority leader has yet to say anything to condemn it. >> joining us from capitol hill. okay, sahil, two questions. what happens next. and, two, as you heard the congresswoman just allude to, where is kevin mccarthy on this? >> the second one first, kevin kevin mccarthy is radio silent and several days since this occurred. nbc reached out to the leader's office and we have yet to hear back. mccarthy's critics and not just
democrats believe he's being silent because he wants it be speaker of the house and he worries about speaking out on this kind of behavior could cost him votes. now, what happens next on this, just this morning about 60 democrats including congresswoman spier introduced this resolution, democratic leaders in the house have not said whether or when it gets a vote in the house of representatives and a couple things to know about this censure resolution. the first is that it's not just a condemnation of congressman gosar and condemns the leadership of the republican party for failing to speak out what it calls gosar's threats of violence. depictions of violence can lead to actual violence and jeopardize the safety of members of congress and then cites the january 6th insurrection of how that can take place. now, this requires a simple majority on the floor of the house of representatives to pass. it would amount to largely a slap on the wrist and a public shaming of congressman gosar and
the house of representatives. the bigger, more tangible question of gosar standing and his place on committees that is up to kevin mccarthy who i noted at the top has been silent on this. >> thank you very much. nbc news obtaining audio of a new interview between former president and jon karl in which donald trump defends, defends the rioters on january 6th who chanted hang mike pence as the then vp was inside the capital getting ready to certify the results. >> were you worried about him during that siege? were you worried about his safety? >> no, i thought he was well protected. and i heard that he was in good shape. no, because i had heard he was in very good shape. but -- >> you heard those chants. that was terrible. >> well, the people were very angry. >> it is common sense, it's
common sense that you were supposed to protect. if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress? >> nbc news has reached out to former president trump and former vice president pence for any comment and nothing yet. we'll, obviously, keep you posted if they do respond. bring in mike allen one of the first outlets to hear that audio from jon and team and thanks to you both for being here. mike, your reaction to what we just heard from the former president. >> well, happy friday, halie. just to set the scene, one incredible thing about this interview is that it happened at all. 90 minutes on tape with a reporter who is, obviously, doing a very tough book about the president. but, hallie, as you know and your viewers have seen, president trump can't help himself. a few months ago someone leaked me a spreadsheet of president trump's interviews. he had done interviews for 17 books.
now, the president trump camp says, well, he was in the middle of an answer and listen to what he says when he says that people were very angry and then saying that how can you do that and how can you pass this on to congress. the point is he had the opportunity to condemn what was done and surprisingly didn't jump at that. >> meredith, what is iteresting to me is someone who continues to talk to sources in these orbits and we know what that relationship looks like between former president trump and mike pence and the way that mike pence has talked about what happened on january 6th. i want to play for you something that he said in june, right, as far as where the relationship is or was at the moment. here's that. >> president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office and i don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day. but i will always be proud of
what we accomplished for the american people over the last four years. >> that's the line pence has said before. but then here he is on fox news just last month, watch. >> the media wants to distract from the biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in january. they want to use that one day to try to demean the character and intentions of 74 million americans. but for our part, i truly believe we all ought to remain completely focused on the future. >> kind of acting like it's seeming to down play one day in january from the former vice president there. what do you know, meredith, and i know you are still connected to folks in this orbit, too, about where this relationship is today. >> it's certainly pretty chilly these days. i would say they have remained in contact but just how much, i do not know. if the former president decides to run in 2024, it's adamantly clear that he would not choose mike pence as his running mate.
he's been asked that very question and has brought up names like ron desants. but it really is interesting to watch how the former vice president has navigated the politics of this as his former partner, the president of the united states, has made comments like the ones we just heard in jon karl's interview concerning his safety that day and his decision to certify the election results. he continues to get blasted by people on the right and the movement itself and yet pence is still very much tied to that world. he was vice president to trump. he, himself, there's potential ambitions for him to run in 2024, as well. so, navigating how the world used him and then, of course, how his own partner, the president continues to talk about him is going to continue to be a political challenge for him. >> talk a little about that navigation, mike. i see you nodding.
it's ininteresting. we don't see a ton from mike pence publicly but journal reported that he is going to speak behind closed doors to a group on tuesday to a group of republican leaders. >> hallie, meredith put her finger on great drama. something for your viewers to watch. who in the potential 2024 field is willing to cross trump and willing to take on trump. such a contrast between that video we just saw and an interview that i did with chris christie this week that's going to air sunday on axios on hbo. >> sunday night. >> yes, where he was basically bring it on. he said to me, i've never walked away from an argument no matter who's on the other side and, hallie, as you know, president trump kept his distance from chris christie as they were good friends. he's attacked a lot of republicans. he hadn't attacked chris christie, but then we saw last weekend chris christie before the republican jewish coalition
talking about how the republican party should be talking about the future. what a novel idea. chris christie got a ton of positive press for that. clearly got under president trump's skin. he issued a statement attacking chris christie but what we can see, you punch chris christie, he'll punch you back. >> mike allen, meredith mcgraw, appreciate you being here. both of you doing so much great reporting. mike, we'll look if you sunday night. following breaking news out of wisconsin. something the governor announced as the trial of kyle rittenhouse gets ready to head to the jury. we'll talk about the move to send in the national guard. new allegations of abuse threaten hopes of taking back the senate. a trump backed republican candidate and how he's responding. before that, the latest in a very crazy story about people trying to undo their covid shots. a borax bath that promises to
detox the vax. dipping yourself into detergent is not going to do it, folks. ben collins explains. first, a look at the new show i'm launching on our streaming channel nbcnews now. every week night starting at 5:00 p.m. eastern. >> these days the news never stops, the morning's headlines changed by afternoon and by the end of the day, it's all totally different. so let's get into it. what's happening right now, what it all means for you for an hour every day. i get it, i know that it can be hard to keep up, so let's get started together and go from there. >> i'm hallie jackson and we have a ton going on tonight. ♪
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this is awesome. what we got here is the weekender box. it's a cocktail aging kit, i think that's really, really cool. drop point blade with 256 layers of forged steel. that's nuts! i just love that every time we open a box from bespoke, we're most likely getting something from a small brand. bespoke post sends you awesome boxes every month and i love it. head to bespokepost.com and get a free gift with your first box when you enter code free. we've got some breaking news in the murder trial of kyle rittenhouse. the wisconsin governor has just authorized deploying 500 national guard troops to kenosha. that comes after some fierce debate today with the judge allowing some lesser charges against rittenhouse but not all. i want to get to megan fitzgerald who is outside the courthouse. let me start with this news from
the governor. we already knew that i blieve that the police in kenosha said they were on extra alert as the case was getting ready to head to the jury and protests or demonstrations when the protests come in and now the national guard is heading to town, as well. >> yeah, that's right. it's a serious concern. they saw what happened last august with the protests. emotions are running high in this case. people are watching this very closely. they want to be prepared just in case there are protests. they're watching this verdict and they're going to have 500 national guardsmen as you said here in town ahead of the verdict as well as the sheriff's department. they are also ready with, you know, man power in the event that it is needed. but today in court, yeah, another very contentious day. a lot of back and forth between the attorneys and the judge. the biggest take away here is that the prosecution, of course, asking the judge for lesser charges on some of the counts. the judge saying that he is inclined to deny the request for
lesser charges on the counts related to joseph rosenbaum. but he is inclined to accept lesser charges on some of the other counts. a decision that he says he will make over the weekend and get back to the attorneys on. but this is significant because some legal analysts will tell you that the fact that they're asking for lesser charges means that the prosecution isn't as confident in the case that they presented to these jurors. others saying, no, that's not entirely the case. so, we will see. but we also know that in court today they discussed jury instructions. so, of course, this is the verbiage that will be given to jurors as to what they need to consider when they go into deliberations for each of the counts that they are going to be considering. we know that each side, the defense and the prosecution will have two hours and 30 minutes to present their closing arguments and before that happens, they
will have to eliminate six of the alternate jurors. we're looking at a 12-person jury here with one african-american so it's very possible that this could be an all white jury. hallie. >> megan fitzgerald live in wisconsin. thank you for being with us on that developing news. now to the pandemic and new reporting among antivaccine groups online. some of them turning to home remedies that will, quote/unquote devaccinate them and letting them prove to their employers they got the shot without it being in their systems. >> we should just note as responsible journalists it does not work like that. there is as ben collins points out, people who were very against vaccinated going ahead and getting the shot. again, but none of the methods we're talking about here, cupping, borax baths actually
undo the vaccine. let me bring in ben collins who has been reporting on this, covering these theories. so, explain this as you know it as you're reporting because i was struck by the way that i know you talk about this and you talked about it online as you do a lot of reporting on some of these anti-vax groups. there's actually some good news here which is that they're getting vaccinated. the bad news, right, is that they're turning to these bizarre methods to try to rid themselves of it. >> yeah, you should get a little bit of hope from this because the people are getting the vaccine. they are getting tired of the mandates. you see this very frequently in antivaccine communities. i have to get it for work. i have to go do it and how do i get this out of my system? they are anti-vaccine influencers on tiktok, instagram and they say you can go detox afterwards. the big one is going to get borax. that really corrosive cleaning agent and it does not feel good. it's probably a really bad eye
and skin irritant and they say put it into a bath and do not do this. it does not do anything. but to one big antivaccine influencer, she says it gets the nan otechnologies out of you which are liqueied computers in the vaccine. this has taken over on tiktok but it is working. another way they're making incisions at the vaccine site and then cupping. >> it's like a suction thing. >> they're self applying that. that doesn't work either. once the vaccine is in you, it doesn't come out. i talked to this one and she is like unringing a bell, you can't do it after you got the vaccine. the good news these people are vaccinated. it's really good news. these people are trying to remain in the anti-vax communities that they lived in for the last year. >> couple questions here. you talked to some medical experts on this. is it the sense that like to
your point the benefits of these folks getting vaccinated outweighs the harm that they might be doing to themselves by using these methods? >> yeah, obviously, a lot better if they don't do the stuff afterwards. but a lot of the detoxes are take some zinc and drink some juice. if you've gotten the vaccine, pretty good for you. largely it's good news here. we're encroaching on 80% of the people who have had at least one shot. once you get to that point, antivaxers are dealing with a small customer base, especially their influencers. they're trying to find a way to move forward where 15%, 20% of the population they can sell things to. this is a way out for them. >> can i just ask one more question. there are some people, though, that's fair and true and all good and what about children because that's something that you're seeing in some of your reporting here. >> oh, yeah, absolutely. a lot of the problem is kids are going to get the shot. and they're coming home and
their parents are like, what do i do? my kid got the shot today against my wishes. what do i do? that's really where you're seeing a lot of these detoxes. that's dangerous. that's the scary part. you're making incisions on your kid or bathing them in chemicals, that's horrifying. that's really bad. that's where this stuff gets dangerous. for personal one-to-one use if they're getting the shot and then coming home and doing whatever they want to themselves if you talk to doctors about this, they're really not that upset about it. >> thanks for bringing it, ben. we appreciate it. turn now to pennsylvania where abuse allegations there could upend the senate campaign of somebody who was considered a rising star. sean the undisputed frontrunner thanks to an enthusiastic endorsement from former president trump. accusations of domestic violence have spilled out to the public view threatening to derail his senate bid and putting the gop
plans to flip pennsylvania in jeopardy. i want to bring in henry gomez. good to see you. thank you for being with us. talk about the emergence of these allegations here. pennsylvania is for republicans a really important state in trying to win the senate here. you talk with some republicans. what do they tell you? >> they're starting to get really nervous, hallie. these allegations have trickled out over the last month, six weeks and they have come to the floor in a custody hearing that has been happening in pennsylvania over the last two weeks. and the details have been coming out and his estranged wife has been testifying about the abuse acquisitions and he has denied it. the more this comes out and the more that they're getting nervous. they can't afford to lose this seat. there's a 50/50 tie in the senate that democrats break with kamala harris' tiebreaking vote. pennsylvania is a seat they hold
now and senator toomey is retiring next year. the republicans that i talked to what we heard is that they're looking for ways to try to, you know, convince him that this is not good. he should possibly be looking for an exit plan here. if the judge rules against him in the custody hearing, it's going to be even worse. one democratic, i'm sorry, one republican strategist i talked to he brought up we're in this era where we say nothing matters but accusations about hitting your wife and hitting your kids, those do matter. and real interesting part here is the trump world continues to stand by parnel. we talk to the people in and around that orbit about this and they're standing with him right now. they want to see what the judge has to say. as long as he has it, something that differentiates him from the four, five or six other candidates in what was already a crowded field. another interesting thing, you're hearing two other
candidates could get into this race including dr. oz, the television doctor. >> which is a whole separate thing. i need to note here, though, henry, just to be clear, he has denied these allegations against him. he has been clear up to this point. >> that's why they're sticking by him for now. they want to see what the judge is ruling. yes, he has denied it. >> henry gomez live covering that story. thank you for being live on the show today. appreciate it. coming up, disturbing new reporting on the taliban's hit list targeting afghanistan's lgbtq community. i'll ask the only advocacy group on the ground there to protect the lives of people who are threatened. that's coming up. t perfect!
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every american and ally out of that country. >> we have been taking out family members of u.s. service members and as we identify people who are in afghanistan. >> but right now hundreds of lgbtq afghans are still fighting to leave as the only international lgbt organization on the ground in that country reports that the taliban is circulating a so-called kill list targeting members of that community. the organization working to get people out says this has been the most complicated mission we've done. the head of that organization is with us now, the executive director of rainbow railroad. thank you so much for being with us. good to see you this afternoon, although i know it's a tough subject to talk about. >> thanks for having me. >> can you talk about this mission and explain what you're seeing and what you and your group are seeing there on the ground. >> so, what we feared after the
take over of the taliban conditions where lgbtq people who are already persecuted face even more danger. we're seeing that play out where, you know, people that we've talked to have reported being attacked, living in fear of family members, you know, submitting their names to the taliban as lgbtq which really puts them in danger. so, we've been monitoring those reports very carefully and looking at all ways possible to get them to safety. >> i know it's hard to talk about personal instances because of security reasons which are totally understandable and i wonder if you can share specifics. you talked about the member of the lgbtq community assaulted in a raid and then the taliban burned their passport which made it so much harder for them to leave. can you talk about sort of the
stories and because this is so personal for people. i want you to get into that a little bit more. >> yeah, you know, we've been on the ground hearing directly for people who were able to flee outside of afghanistan and hearing some really troubling occurrences. you know another one that really, you know, struck me was an individual's family member, you know, who basically told them to like get everything out of the house and that they're going to release their names to the taliban to get them. you know, there's a real sense of lawlessness happening right now where these searches are happening randomly where there's a real sense that because the government is not centralized that any person can pick a target for the lgbtq community
and assault or murder them. >> do you feel the biden administration is doing enough on this particular issue? i don't know if you heard at the top of the segment we heard from secretaryblinken said they are committed to get people out and it is now a diplomatic effort. to you feel that the white house and the biden administration could be stepping up and doing more as it relates to lgbtq afghans? >> yes, i think the administration can signal that they are serious about our community by working with an organization like ours right now. the biden administration released a really important memo in february of this year outlining lgbtq rights globally and specifically mentioning refugees and specifically mentioning crisises and partnering with organizations. at this moment we have people that we are facilitating to get to safe havens outside of afghanistan where all the biden administration needs to do is
pardon with us to get them into the united states. the challenge we have right now is that we can't afford to wait because unlike other populations, the lgbtq community is not safe in areas outside of afghanistan. the time to act is now and the challenge right now is that the administration is not acting quick enough. >> thank you so much for being with us and laying out the experience that you and your group are having trying to help these folks on the ground. really appreciate your time. thanks for being with us. coming up, more as we head out west to some news that is set to develop in just under an hour from now. a key hearing happening in 45 minutes when britney spears could be freed completely from her conservatorship. you can imagine free britney fans outside the courthouse right now. you're seeing them. we'll take you there live after the break. upgrade to the iphone 13 pro... on us.
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that's investigating the january 6th riot at the u.s. capitol. and the justice department has been working on this and deciding whether to present to it a grand jury. that has happened. it it was presented to a grand jury, and the grand jury has returned an indictment charging bannon with contell of congress. there are several interesting things about this, hallie. number one, this is what the committee was waiting for. >> yeah. >> this is now going to turn up the pressure on other people who were on the fence about whether to agree to testify or to honor a request from the former president, who has said that he wanted to exert executive privilege -- assert executive privilege and urging his former aides not to testify before the committee. of course the extent of the president's executive privilege is an open question here. it is up with that the u.s. court of appeals for the district of columbia is going to be getting to the bottom of here
shortly in a separate dispute with trump and the national archives about the documents it wants. this is one thing. it turns up the pressure on other former administration officials who have been subpoenaed. i think there are 15 of them. the second thing, this is a first. nobody as we have been able to tell has ever before been indicted by a grand jury for contempt of congress when there is an assertion of executive privilege. there is an as terrific on that statement because in the past all of those involved people who were at the time either in the administration or who had recently left the administration. bannon, of course, left his white house employment in 2017, long before the period that's of interest to the january 6th committee. >> right. >> but that's something of a first. the other interesting thing here is that i think one of the reasons why this has been a difficult one for the justice department to decide -- remember, it has been something like three weeks since the
justice department got this referral -- is this. bannon can now -- bannon has a potentially strong defense. he can say he was acting on the advice of counsel. and there have been federal cases in the past where someone saying they were actsing on their lawyer's advice, that has been considered absolute defense in a criminal case. so that's a question here. back to what's going to happen here now. this is now going to be handled like any other criminal case. steve bannon will be given a date. will appear before a federal magistrate to be arraigned. he will enter a plea. presumably, he will plead not guilty, and then the judge will set a trial date and then we will go through the usual procedure for anybody who has ever been charged with a crime. one or thing. >> yes. >> the record for prosecutions of persons charged with contempt of congress not a good one
looking at it from the doesn't of justice's perspective. the last one was in 1983 when a former e.p.a. official refused to testify. she was charged with contempt. and she was acquitted. the contempt was often used during the communist scare era in the 1950s, and a lot of people were charged with contempt of congress, and there were a lot of acquittals. it is always a tough to get a charge, and it is a tough case to get a conviction. but i guess, for now, it's going to put up -- increase the pressure on other trump administration -- >> yeah. >> -- officials to consider this. because -- one other thing i would say here, if somebody is convicted they face up to a year behind bars and a fine of up to $100,000. that may folk us the attention of people who are trying to decide whether to stiff the committee on these subpoenas or not. >> yeah. >> there is one other thing about this that's kind of
strange about this particular charge. if a person is charged with contempt, as bannon now has been, and is convicted, that doesn't mean they have to testify. this is merely the punishment for their refusal to testify. it doesn't force them to testify. it's not like civil contempt where you throw somebody in jail and you only let them out if they agree to testify. that's not what this is. this is criminal contempt. even if -- even if bannon is convicted, he still doesn't have to testify. >> it's two counts, right, of contempt of congress, pete. you answered one of my questions, which was on the consequences. let me bring in joyce vance one of our legal analysts as leon caldwell. pete, did we know the tombline for the first appearance of bannon? do we know when we will see him in court to answer to this? >> i am sure we will know shortly. the rule has to be within 48
hours. >> presumably soon, would be the thinking of it. >> absolutely. >> we have a statement here from merrick garland. it's just popping up on my phone here. i want to read to it folks because the attorney general says, as it relates to this indictment of steve bannon now on two counts of contempt of congress since my first day in office, since the attorney general, i have promised justice department employees that together we would show the american people by word and deed that the department adheres to the rule of law, follows the facts of the law, and pursues equal justice under the law. the attorney general says today's charges reflect the department's steadfast commitment to these principles. joyce vance let me bring you in here. you have been covering this story, i know, as one of our legal analysts here. your reaction? >> well, the indictment seems appropriately tailored to the circumstances and it is very interesting, hallie, as you pointed out. there are two separate counts here. there is a count that charges
bannon with failure to show up to testify. there is also a count that charges him with failing to produce documents and other materials that are requested. so we see how the issues in this case are converging on the case that's already in front of the d.c. circuit, the case where president trump is objecting to turnover of his presidential papers. >> yep. >> the ultimate issue to get decided in both matters is whether president trump has the ability to try to block these materials, or whether once president biden determines that those materials have to be turned over because january 6th and the events of the insurrection have such grave impact on the nation that these materials have to be turned over. that issue gets determined here. >> lee anne, i have 30 seconds left in show. go. >> so, hallie, this is good news for the select committee. that's because we just saw the mark meadows defiance of a subpoena today. we were expecting to hear from that january 6th select committee on mark meadows, but we haven't yet.
it was interesting because steve bannon -- nothing had happened with the department of justice. now that it has, perhaps it will give the select committee more confidence to move forward with their threat to also refer a criminal contempt charge to the justice department on behalf of mark meadows, and perhaps even jeff lee clark, the former department of justice trump administration official who also has defied the january 6th select committee's subpoena. >> lee anne called well, joyce vance, pete williams reporting on this breaking news this hour. thanks to all of you. thank you for watching this hour of hallie jackson reports. you know nicole is going to have more on this. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. we begin with that breaking news, the merrick garland justice department -- out of the merrick garland justice department that will have implications into the deadly capitol