tv Deadline White House MSNBC November 8, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PST
but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ hi there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. there are developments on multiple fronts in the war against the big lie and the disinformation that threatens our democracy, chief among them the work of the january 6th select committee which is locked right now in a fight with the disgracedess expresident and his allies of information that could give a full accounting of everything that went on before and after and during the insurrection. but there is breaking news this afternoon. the panel has issued subpoenaed
to some of the biggest names in trump world. including the campaign manager, bill stepien, and campaign spokesman jason miller as well as john eastman, the infamous lawyer who wrote the memo described as a quote blue point for a coup. michael flynn, one of the biggest and most prolific peddlers of the big lie. also subpoenaed, bernie karrick. the "washington post" reports he acted as an investigator of sorts of election fraud conspiracies inside the so-called war room at the willard hotel in washington, d.c. there is also today news on the criminal investigation into election interference taking place in georgia. it has been mostly under the radar for most of the past year. but the "new york times" is reporting on signs that the georgia probe is entering a new stage, quote, an atlantic district attorney is moving
toward convening a special grand jury in the investigation into the enter veerns by the former president and his allies. the prosecutor fanny willis opened her inquiry in february. they are consulting with the select committee. her progress has been slowed in part by the delays in the panel's fact gathering. convening a grand jury dedicated solely to the allegations of allege tampering, miss willis would be indicating a democrat could be indicating her own investigation is moving up. movement in the investigations into the trump coup plot is where we begin this hour. does also joining us mike schmidt, greg blue steen is here, and betsy woodruff swan has been persuaded to stick around for our breaking news
coverage. >> let me start with you claire mccaskill. we have witness poring over these letters. far from a form letter they lay out the evidence. they have got the goods on these folks already. what happens next? >> it is interesting what they put in these letters because what they want to send the message to these folks lawyers is this is not a phishing expedition. >> right. >> we already know who was in the room at the willard. we already know a great deal about what happened in that room at the willard. we know what the campaign was doing with stapp the steal. they are signaling to these team don't think we don't know some of the stuff you did. if you try to shade it at this point you are liable to get caught in an even more serious situation, the kind of perjury that could get you in trouble. >> it seems to also lay out whether or not you as an individual for example, mr. flynn come and talk to us, we have got all of these other
people we have subpoenaed and here's what we already know. these are scenes and thing that happened in rooms where folks like mike and betsy and robert costa have already reported on the other participants. is it also part of the pressure campaign to encourage or incentivize participation? >> i think it is. i think what they are trying to signal is -- they have kind of sent this signal before. i heard schiff say it, other members of the committee say it. you know, we've got a lot of evidence. >> yeah. >> we need the testimony of these witnesses. and we are not going to be denied the testimony of these witnesses. but they should not think that they can come in and testify as if they are working on a blank slate here. and that's the way these subpoenas have been developed. i think it's smart. now, they have got to turn up the speed on this. >> yeah. >> especially the d.a. in fulton county, in georgia, being this is really -- this special grand jury should have been appointed months ago to do the investigative work to ask the subpoenas -- they have to bring it back to a regular grand jury
in atlanta for an indictment if they find criminal conduct. but all of this -- i mean, everything needs to move more quickly. we can't be talking about this next year or not only will americans be disillusions about accountability, so will voters. >> you already see some signs of that in the air. i want to follow up on something claire is talking about in terms of the scope of the january 6th investigation. betsy, chairman thompson i think on friday talked -- and liz cheney has been pretty open about it as well, about the number of witnesses, about the vast geographical scope of where they have investigators on the ground. notably it includes georgia, but it also includes pennsylvania and arizona and michigan. the me what stands out for new the batch of subpoenas. then we will all get into some of the individual letters. >> the most low profile person in this batch of subpoena is angela mccallum, somebody who was doing work in connection
with the trump campaign. contemporaneous news reporting out of michigan. documented the fact that mccallum actually reached out to members of the michigan state legislature in that weird interim of time between after trump lost the election and before the attack on the capitol on january 6th that she reached out to these state legislators presumely on behalf of trump campaign and urged them to overturn the election results in their state and try to install a different slate of electors who would vote for trump rather than vote for biden. mccallum has gotten much less attention than any of the other five people who received these subpoenas. and the fact the committee is talking to people who have drawn this little publicity from the media shows they are digging in, scrutinizing others who perhaps
other reporters didn't have the band width to find. we respect their reporting. >> you hone in on the one name that hasn't been covered by you or anybody else. to hear that is an echo of what chairman thompson said on friday, they have investigators on the ground all over the country. it is another window into how much work we don't see. mike, i want to read to you from the letter that went to mr. eastman. you have spoken with him and done reporting on him. the select committee's investigation and public reports have revealed credible evidence that you know about and may have participated in attempts to encourage the vice president of the united states to reject the electors from several states or at the very least to delay the electoral college results to if i have more states time to submit different slates of electors. you in fact wrote memoranda to
the vice president to potentially change the outcome of the 2020 election. the two page memo reportedly sets out a six part proposed plan of action stating in part here's the sthario -- scenario that we propose. the longer version of the memo, war games several scenarios including one in which the vice president rejects ballots from certain states and trump is reelected. it sounds like the guy who went from being maybe the most polished legal mind in the room is now in some of the deepest doo-doo in the room. >> look, these are the folks that took the most extreme views with trump in those days leading up to january 6th. the people that were really stoking his desires to remain in office and trying to come up with any way to do it. this is the real inner circle.
what i think the committee is going to run into is that these are people who participated in trying to overturn an election. my guess is they are going to do everything they can to fight congressional subpoenas. they have already shown little respect for the electoral system. it's hard to believe they won't go to great lengths to try to fight this. i understand people think subpoenas should be complied with. these are legal subpoenas that have been issued. these are efforts who were part of the effort to overturn the election and have shown very little respect for the norms of washington. my guess here is that we will end up in a similar situation to what we were in before with some of the other stuff with bannon in a similar situation a few weeks back where the committee may be forced to turn to the justice department or forced to turn to the courts to try to get the answers that they want ask. the problem with that is that it just slows them down. and they know they only have so much of a runway until they get
into the midterm elections next year where they could potentially lose power and be in the minority, and it would be much, much harder to finish this investigation. how is it that the committee is going to ensure that these individuals comply with the subpoenas, go along, and answer those questions i think is the biggest thing i am wondering about right now. >> the names are sort of like a rhodes' gallery here. let me read from bernie karrick's letter, the committee is investigating the facts circumstantial asks causes of january 6th attack and issues relating to the peaceful transfer of power. the committee's investigation and public accounts revealed credible evidence of your involvement. you reportedly participated in a meeting on january 5th at the willard hotel in washington, d.c. in which rudy giuliani, steve bannon, johnniesman and others discuss options for
overturning the results of the election among other things, pressuring the vice president not to certified the electoral college results, according to public opinions, you paid for rooms and suites in d.c. hotels that served as election-related command centers. you described this list -- the first list was sort the trump lieutenants. this list is the war room participants. >> this is the willard war room f. crimes were committed, they certainly go lieu the willard war room. >> and the money. >> and the money. so i think this is probable able primary to their investigation. but mike's right. they are not going to show up. they are going to vote for contempt. now we are almost to when santa claws comes down the chimney. then it goes to the department of justice. and by the way, where is d.o.j. on the bannon subpoena? where are they? >> what do you hear? where are they? >> i do not understand it is not like a long process.
>> right. >> there is a decision to be made. make the decision and move, one way or the other. but this notion that -- and i have said this before on your program and others. when we have found the people at back page in contempt for refusing to testify in front of our committee, it took two years to enforce that subpoena. and that was after we began the legal process in the courts. so i really am worried that -- i know they want to be author. i know they want to be methodical. but d.o.j. needs to -- i would use a crude phrase here, but i won't, they need to do something, or something. >> i think i know where you are going. get off and -- i got you. >> exactly. >> let me read -- we talk so much about what would be subpoenaed and when. now we have them. i don't want to skip over these. let me read for you, betsy, some of general flynn's subpoena. the select committee's investigation and other public accounts have revealed credible
evidence of your investment in the events within the scope of the select committee's inquiry. you reportedly attended a december 18th 2020 meeting in the oval office during which participants discussed seizing voting machines, declaring a national emergency, invoking certain national security emergency powers, and continuing to spread the message that the november 2020 election had been tainted by widespread fraud. the day before, you did an interview on news haks max tv in which you talked about seizing voting machines for an influence in the election and a purported precedent for deploying military troops and declaing lay for rerunning the election. i remember some of the reporting from journalists at the time of general flynn being in the oval office on that day and. so of the alarm that seeped out to journalists like all of you from most likely other white house officials. did you learn anything new in this letter, betsy? >> i don't know that there is a ton of new material in the flynn
letter, in part because what happened that day leaked like you said almost in real time because even in an administration where there was a lot of pretty wacky stuff happening in the oval office, that meeting on december 18th that flynn was in is possibly the most astounding and extraordinary meeting that happened in the oval office during the trump presidency, which is an extremely high bar to meet. part of the reason, i think, that it looked so quickly and there was so much detailed reporting on that meetly very shortly after it happened was because the people who knew about it who weren't the participants calling for the martial law and seizing voting machines were worried about what was going to unfold. flynn of course was deeply involved not just on december 18th but all the way up through january 5th. he gave an incendiary speech in washington where he talked how the number of people who voted
illegally was similar to the number of people who died on certain battlefields during war. really some extraordinary analogies to be drawing, extraordinary comparisons to be making. and there is question that flynn would have a very detailed level of insight into exactly what was happening in trump world this the leadup to january 6th. that said, there is also no question of if we are talking about who is likely to be least likely to cooperate with the subpoena, flynn is high eggs on that list, given the way he approached these types of matters in the past. it is surprising, but not insignificant that the committee is going after him in a full throttled way. >> this is just my theory, perhaps the most likely -- bill stepien's letter. bill stepien, before managing the trump reelect was from a
more normal republican pedigree. worked for chris christie and had misgivings in the hours and days after election day when donald trump didn't concede. my understanding, was distraught by what you saw the expresident do on election night at 3:00 in the morning. let me read. as manager of the trump 2020 re-election campaign you overyou a all aspects of the campaign. you then supervised the conversion of the trump presidential campaign to an effort focused on stop the steal messaging and related funds raising. that messaging included the promotion of false claims related to voting machines despite a memo in which campaign staff determined such claims were false. people attacked the capitol on january 6th. additionally, the campaign reportedly urged state and elected officials to affect the outcome of the 2020 election by among other things asking states
to deny electoral votes and sending multiple slates of electoral votes to the united states congress. when i read this letter to mr. stepien. i thought of your report being how don mcgahn became the receive officer in the robert mueller report. and the thought popped up, you don't need all six of these people to talk. you just need one. from the letters that turned don mcgahn, do you see any of these letters pressuring any of these individuals subpoenaed today? >> i don't know. but i was just thinking there are two people in this group who would probably be less likely to be that person than anyone. that is flynn and karrick. trump pardoned flynn -- i lost track of all the pardonen and come mutations but i believe he
pardoned karrick as well. >> yeah. >> it shows the far reach of trump's power as president. by doing that he was able to gain loyalty from these individuals in ways that are just immeasurable, incredible. and here they are now being asked to answer questions in an investigation which donald trump does not want them to participate. look, who knows? maybe they do come in and they could participate. but trump was able to use, when he was in office, his power to insulate himself in ways that made it much more difficult for folks like robert mueller and made it much more difficult for congress and for oversight. and here you have these two individuals being come to answer questions who trump has done the most extraordinary thing he could do in their lives for them. and it will be very interesting to see if they are actually going to answer questions. >> i want to turn to something claire already alluded to.
gleg blue steen has been waiting patiently. we started the day planning to focus on the new reporting where this investigation appears to be in a ramping up phase according not "new york times." greg, my first question to you, what is your understanding of where benny willis's probe stands at this hour. >> it is a clear signal that her investigation is starting to ramp up. i talked with people related to the investigation. they said under georgia law a district attorney can put together a grand jury for a serb investigation. then what the special grand jury can then do, what they find can be taken to a regular grand jury down the road. they are looking at this, waiting to see what the congressional investigation yields. but secretary of state brad raffensperger finished a book where he anote tats his
conversations with the president. that's certainly something georgia is looking at because he is likely to be a star in the case if the investigation moves forward. >> he says, quote, for the office of the secretary of state to recalculate would mean we would somehow have to fumg the numbers. the president was asking me to do something that i knew was wrong, and i was not going to do that. there is very little ambiguity in the way brad raffensperger talks about what he was asked to do. i asked him if he would testify before the january 6th committee. he was on the fence at the time. but this reporting in the times, greg, seems to suggest that some of the things that miss willis is pursuing overlap with the 1/6 committee. do you have any visibility whether raffensperger has been asked to testify before the 1/6 committee or share information or if he sort of simply sent them a copy of this book? >> i know the book is basically a blueprint for what they will ask him, if he does get asked.
>> yeah. >> and certainly local prosecutors as well. i know aides to his office have been interviewed. but secretary of state brad raffensperger to my knowledge has yet to be interviewed by local prosecutors. >> i want to play bennie thompson talking about having folks on the ground in all these places we are talking about today. >> we have staff in arizona. we have staff in michigan, staff in pennsylvania, staff in georgia. you know. i mean, it's a major investigation. and we look at it like that. >> greg, do you have any reporting on who congressman thompson's staff may be talking to or seeking to talk to in georgia? >> we can imagine they are talking to anyone involved, anyone on the receiving end of former president donald trump's threats, including secretary of state stafford but also including lawmakers who were under pressure to call a special
stegs and to try to overturn the election results here in georgia. >> i want to come back to you, claire, son sort of these two probes. with your note at the beginning about d.o.j. i think hanging over everything that mike's saying and that betsy has reported is that if a congressional subpoena want skpant won't be enforced, at what point does this become moot? >> i think it is important if all of us want accountability for what happened after the election. when a president of the united states lied and tried to overturn the will of the people. there is really four buckets here. there is the congressional investigation that i am not optimistic will go quickly or efficiently to a conclusion that will satisfy people in terms of accountability. then there is the bucket of investigations in new york state having to do with the trump organization and the fact that trump would tell the irs one figure and he would tell his
bankers another figure. that's a felony. >> right, for the rest of us. >> that's one bucket. then you have the bucket of d.o.j. and what d.o.j. is going to do with all of these people that are ignoring legally-issued subpoenas. then you have the bucket in georgia where you have everybody from meadows to lindsey graham to the president himself basically asking -- >> jeff lee clark. >> asking him to commit a crime and overturn an election. so all of those things are going on stultly. if i had to bet or die, i would bet that the new york investigation is most likely to bear something, because it's on paper and won't depend on human witnesses. >> wow. going out on a limb there with a prediction. i don't do that anymore. i admire your courage. mike, gleg, thank you so much for starting us off. betsy, thank you for sticking around and starting us off this hour. claire sticks around for the
hour. when we come back, the message sent to the white house on election day coming in loud and clear with the message of a big, huge infrastructure package late friday night. so what happens next? the republican party that has no interest in governing, clearly. plus, one gop senator's call for a revival of manhood, strong manhood, in america. he says the left is assaulting manhood, manliness, masculine virtues, and he wants to make the return of man stuff his signature political issue. this is real. the bizarre and frankly based on the data, dangerous take, with our panelists coming up. finally later in the program. aaron rodgers, football player. remember him? he lied about his vaccine status and now there are calls for the nfl to hold him accountable. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.
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the voters sent a message on tuesday they wanted to see more action in washington. they wanted to see things move more quickly. and three days later congress responded passing the president's infrastructure bill. americans are tired of how long it has take tony get the economy moving, to get covid under control. i feel the frustration personally myself. i think everyone does. i think that frustration wears on people. >> it is called straight talk there from the white house chief of staff ran -- ron klain. democrats now turning to the urgent need to sell their legislative deliverables to the country ahead of the midterm
elections. maureen dowd writes, most important, democrats have to come up with a vocabulary and a vision to illustrate how the bipartisan infrastructure framework and build back better will benefit people. gif sounds like willie lowman's son, and will we skb to bbb or not to bbb. democratic politicians seed at odds in the electorate. at the end of the day, democrats are going to get good stuff for americans but voters may not realize that because of the big hash the republicans democrats made with the bills. joining us, on the oversight question. because we have sought your insights on so many january 6 developments, i wanted your reaction to today's batch of subpoenas first? >> i think the subpoenas go to the heart of conspiracy to
basically overturn the results of a free and fair election. i think it's that serious. you know, i agree with claire mccaskill that frankly relying on the judicial system to enforce legislative branch subpoena is dicey business. it takes too long. don mcgahn, for example, the white house counsel, was subpoenaed and it wasn't resolved until after he left the white house. long too late. and so we have to get things done in real time. and i believe the time has come for the congress to once again enforce its own subpoenas. >> so your -- tell me what that looks like? we used to have a process until 1930, from the beginning of the republic until 1930, in which congress enforced its own compulsion of testimony -- subpoenas. and that meant that if necessary we sent the sergeant at arms or
its equivalent and arrested people and detained them until they cooperated with the congressional separate. we are a separate but coequal branch of government. >> you believe this is the time to -- claire keeps asking, what is happen at the justice department? have you seen enough from the justice department? do you think it is time for congress to enforce its own subpoenas? >> i do. because i think the justice department takes too long. and i think the courts take too long. it is a very long, for thieuous process. meanwhile, we need to be getting things done in real time. people died because of the conspiracy that these people were involved in to overturn the election. on january 6th. that's a very grave matter. that was a dagger at the very heart of democracy itself. we must take that as seriously as it was intended. and that means we've got to act swiftly. expeditiously and we can't rely
on the courts to enforce our subpoenas. >> jerry, i have to ask you about virginia. i specifically want to ask you about two problems that we saw that emerged for the democratic party. one is the margins in rural virginia. i came to the senate with jim webb, who i imagine did much better in southwest virginia than terry mcauliffe did last tuesday night. and then the suburbs and independent voters, where we have seen such an erosion of support for joe biden among independent voters. and of course, margins in rural america and support of independent voters is how we control congress. is there a sense of urgecy about everyone coming together and stopping this incessant arguing about whether or not everybody gets everything but rather will people be willing to settle for things that make those suburban voters and rural
voters realize the democrats are the ones who are looking after them? >> claire, i think that's the question. somebody has to explain how a ten percentage election margin of joe biden one year ago evaporated last tuesday here in virginia. it was a 12, bm -- it was a 12, some 13-point swing. that means we ought to go to defcon 2. we are going to recover but we can't recover if we can't continue what led to the successful passage the infrastructure bill on friday and what i hope will be the successful passage the build back better bill two weeks from now. is there a sense of urgency? i don't think it is there yet.
you saw six democrats vote against the infrastructure bill because they didn't trust the assurances that were made that moderates were made for the next bill. we can't have that. our margins are too thin. we have got to have unity. we have to understand the adage f we don't hang together we most assuredly will hang separately. >> what are your theories about where that 12 to 13% plunging of the president's numbers from a ago -- how did that happen? >> so if you look at the democratic vote, we did very well. >> yeah. >> close to what we should have done in the blue parts of the state. but, as claire hinted, in the red parts of the state, we saw huge turnout. and we saw a huge swing in the republican direction. we cannot continue to lose counties and cities in rural
parts of america, and certainly here in virginia. you know, 85-15, or even in one case, 90-10. these are catastrophic percentages. we have to be more competitive. doesn't mean we are going to win rural america any time soon. but we certainly can't lose it. i think that's how we lost the election. it was a narrow win by a republican. when you look at what we did just a year ago it is a huge swaing swing, one that if it is replicated nationwide i think would spell enormous trouble for us in the mid terms. that's why i say we have got to go to defcon two. >> having spent time in the republican party, if republican candidates had a scrap of the kinds of economic news that the democrats have, they would be throwing parades, if they had the jobs numbers, if donald trump had seen the stock market at the highs.
donald trump had infrastructure week planned every week of his presidency. is it your sense that the economic message is better than sort of where james carwell i think seemed to want to take the party debate whether things are too woke? tell me what you think is the path out of where the vote was last tuesday? >> people vote where they live, you know? we need to be talking to those voters where they live. and we have got a story to tell. you know, we are coming out of the pandemic in remarkably strong economic shape. unemployment is low and dropping. people -- you know, companies are looking for workers. wages are rising. productivity is increasing. savings are at an almost all-time high. but we have got problems. you know, we've got bottlenecks in the supply chain. and we have got some inflation
that clearly is impacting families. we have got talk about that economy, and we have also got to talk about what we are doing about it. you know, you wouldn't even know that we passed a $1.9 trillion covid relief bill in march of this year. >> right. >> we stopped talking about it. >> right. >> it provided cash to families. it saved people from evictions. it did incredible things. and we stopped talking about it. well, you know, you can't expect voters to vote for you because of what you have done if you don't talk about it. our messaging definitely is inadequate. and we have got to fix that problem. the good news is, that's a pickible problem. >> jerry, we appreciate your candor, you can come back any time. thank you for spending time with us today. thank you. up next for us, josh hawley on what he says is wrong with men, all men. that's next. do you take aspirin? plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach.
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great price and i love it. the variety's great, i love how easy and flexible it is. head to bespokepost.com and get a free gift with your first box when you enter code free. on this show, we work really hard to avoid giving oxygen to the insurrection enablers. you know who they are. but this week one of them said something so classally ridiculous we couldn't help but cover it. amid rising political polarization with so many americans dead from covid in just the past year and a half in this country and the fact we are living in a democracy in danger
of losing its central attribute faith in the sanctity of our free and fair elections, josh hawley with his trademark laizer like precision honed in on the front burner issue in america. masculinity. take a look. >> why masculinity as your new big issue. >> i think the left is saying america is systemically oppressive and men are systemically responsible. as conservatives we have got to call men back to responsibility. >> hawley went on to flesh out one of the new planks of his political platform. >> we have got to say that spending your time not working -- we have more and more men who are not working. spending your time on video games, spentdsing your time watching porn on line while doing nothing is not good for you, your family, or this country.
>> hmm. joining our conversation, former republican strategist steve schmidt. claire is still here. you know josh hawley. what, what, what, what, what, what? >> okay. this is -- first of all, i, unlike many people in america i am certainly not shocked he said something this wacky. he said stuff like this before. at one point he gave a speech to a group of ministers where he talked about that it was the birth control pill and women discovering sexuality that caused sex trafficking. so this is not shocker. but i want to hone in. i want to do a nicole wall as here. i'm going to put on my glasses and i am going read something. i want everyone to understand the three virtues that he called the manly virtues. >> okay. >> he said these are the traditional masculine virtues that women are taking away from men. he named courage, independence, and assertiveness. >> how are we doing that?
>> the last time i looked those are human virtues. what woman have done is they have taken their place alongside men and they have had independence and courage and assertiveness. they should not threaten men in the least. it certainly shouldn't drive them to porn. it is crazy town. but he thinks by making men the victim, he becomes their champion, and he's the new donald trump. >> steve, what is -- what is this, really? >> well, it's a couple of dashes of political extremism from a very, very cynical standeford educated united states senator who emerged into the leadership of the country from the elite of the country. it's a dollop of the type of rhetoric that you may hear in vladimir putin's russia, you may hear in victor or ban's hungary.
a fusion of these masculine notions, right? this is why you see putin posing with tigers with his shirt off, or wrestling bears or whatever the russian photo op is. it is this version and version of masculiity with a political agenda attached to it that puts the white male into the center of the grievance class and the victim class in the country. and that's the space that hawley is trying to occupy. i would say this. when you look at his treachery, when you look at the violation of his oath of office, when you look at his role in the insurrection, you look at that fist pump, you look at what he did, there is no leader who we all admire in this country for courage, grit, determination, man or woman, black or white who would ever look at josh hawley
with anything other than the deepest contempt. and he has earned that. >> yeah, i mean, he looks so scared. is he in a politically vulnerable spot right now is this how is he doing? >> no, he's trying to run for president. >> oh. >> he has been trying to run for president -- listen, i am never going to be anybody to criticize ambition. i think women should own their ambition. >> totally. >> you are ambitious. i am ambitious. we wouldn't be sitting here if we were ambition. >> but if we got passed up for a job i don't think we would blame the forces who pushed us to video games and important. >> it is hard to be a leader and a victim at the same time. josh hawley is trying to make his followers victims and he is going to be their champion to lead them out of victimhood into dominance again. in this instance what he's basically saying to the women of america, you have got to quit having courage, being assertive and quit being independent so we
can go back to a time where everybody in college was a man. he also pointed out there are more women in college than men right now. it has been that way since i was in college. we have had more women in college than men in america for man many years. but we still have a tiny percentage in corporate board rooms. we still have never elected a woman president. we still are way behind in terms of numbers, in terms of equity in this country. so you would think somebody would aspire to an equality message for women and men, not come on, guys, get out from behind your screens, quit looking at porn, and let's put women back in their place. >> it seems like one of those peak 2021 stories. when we come back, a story even more insane. you will never figure out what has triggered americans? a big yellow puppet that is the
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you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ ♪♪ (calls dog) buttercup... (whines) ♪♪ ♪ ohh ohh ♪ kids all across this country are lining up to receive their first dose of pfizer's covid vaccine. kids 5 to 11, finally eligible. over the weekend, that included our friend over on "sesame street," the forever 6-year-old big bird, who despite a bit of a sore wing got his shot to promote the vaccine. president biden even congratulated big bird, thanking him for keeping his famous neighborhood safe. enter notable buzz kill, ted cruz, who we should point out is
vaccinated but is opposed to any federal vaccine mandates, tweeting, quote, government propaganda for your 5-year-old. cruz's ridiculous, seemingly faux outrage highlights the absurdity of republicans who are using vaccines, at this point vaccines for kids, as a culture war flash point to rile up the far fringes of their base. we're back with steve and claire. steve, this is one place that i had hoped so desperately would stay sort of free from the politics. it would appear ted cruz can't help himself. >> can't help himself, and if ted cruz had kids that age, the chances that they would be unvaccinated are exactly zero. zero. and so, this is another moment of just abject stupidity from a united states senator from one of the nation's maga states in a really serious moment, serious time for the country. we have big problems. we have big challenges.
we are at the end of one era, the time frame from the end of the second world war to about 2016 and the beginning of a new one. our leaders don't seem matched to their responsibilities and highest on that list, really, with few peers are the josh hawleys and the ted cruzes and the kevin mccarthys and the whole lot of them. i mean, just of all the things that you could get up and use your platform to talk about, how stupid. and to spread anxiety for families, knowing that this vaccine can save the lives of children who thankfully aren't the prime danger class from covid but we don't really know what the consequences of long covid and these other factors are. and you know, vaccines have been part of american life, thank god, creations of american science for decades, and have
saved, because of them, lives from misery, disease, and death, and to see someone who's had every educational privilege and every opportunity in this country doing that and doing it from high office, it's just despicable. >> yeah. i wonder, claire, about how dangerous people without shame are. i think about it all the time. you know, i make a mistake, i'm embarrassed and ashamed for days, but i wonder how free josh hawley and ted cruz must feel that if they don't feel shame, they can engage in what steve's talking about. >> we now have data that since vaccinations came on the scene and since people like ted cruz have decided to make it a political weapon instead of everybody encouraging public health, we now know that in the trump counties, people are dying five times more frequently. 150,000 unvaccinated people have died since june 1st.
150,000 people whose lives could have been saved. this is not about politics. this is deadly serious. and it is so depressing to me that these guys would try to get political gain out of something that is killing people. it is unbelievable. >> and killing their voters more than anyone else's. >> their voters more than anyone else's. >> steve, what happens next? >> i think that when you look at the totality of all these acts, right, these are the greatest acts of public immorality in the modern history of the country, maybe in the entire history of the country from high officials, you know, at least from the post civil war era. i don't know what's comparable to it. the country is in a lot of trouble. it seems when you look at the
results and the headwinds that democrats face and the congressmen, as you pointed out, a year is a long time in politics and anything can happen but if you just look at the fact that only three times in the last 120 years has the incumbent president's party picked up seats in that first midterm, it seems like we're headed towards a final determination on some grave questions in a '24 election with a divided washington, a republican-controlled house, likely, a democratic president, a senate to jump ball, we'll see two years of cynicism and chaos and then the american people are going to have to decide. you know, i started a group to fight in the last campaign, and that group had a promise that the election was about trump. that trump was the issue. he was the first 15 million issues in the race. even if trump's on the ballot in the next election, that's not
what the race is going to be about. it's not going to be about trump next time. it's going to be about us. it's going to be about what type of country do we want to live in. do we want to continue to live in a country where the people pick their leaders as opposed to a leader declares he's in charge. do we want to live in a nation of laws and rules and equality? we have big questions on the ballot, the solvency of the country, the future of the country, the magnitude of the technological changes we'll see over the next 20 years and its impact, working class people. enormous issues. and so this next election, i just -- i see it clear as day and what i see ahead is a constitutional crisis when one party refuses to yield to the results of an election if they lose and that's the precedent that's been laid down and is unresolved and despite all of these bills and god knows we need to fix infrastructure in the united states, i mean, we
have an infrastructure of a third world country in a lot of places, but a year on from the insurrection, we have done nothing to harden and protect the american democracy from a president like trump or a future president like hawley who have no scruples, have no conscience, have no guardrails, and so that's what this moment in time is, and i think that's what the debate's going to be about as we move forward. >> we'll stay on it with your help. steve schmidt, claire mccaskill, thank you so much for spending time with us today. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. deadline white house" starts after a very short break.
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partisanship and an obligation that we share, democrats and republicans together, to make sure that we understand every single piece of the facts about what happened that day and to make sure the people who did it are held accountable, and to call it a false flag operation, to spread those kinds of lies is really dangerous. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it's conspiratorial, corrosive, and you heard congresswoman liz cheney, it's really, really dangerous. the ongoing anti-democratic attempt to rewrite what happened in this country on january 6th. that particular dystopian universe, the nonexistent one written by tucker carlson, those responsible for the attack on our seat of government are the patriots, the victims of a false flag event, trapped and summarily rounded up by the fbi. it's worth pointing out every single time we give any oxygen at all to such outrageous whack
a doo claims, they're just that, designed to satisfy a pocket of our country that refuses to recognize the truth. even amid a right-wing campaign of harmful disinformation, the house select committee investing the january 6th insurrection, which includes congresswoman liz cheney, is moving ever forward with its fact-finding work. we've brought you that breaking news at the top of the last hour, that the committee issued six new subpoenas this afternoon to six top trump advisors. their names, from nbc news, bill stepien, donald trump's 2020 re-election campaign manager, jason miller, angela mccallum, john eastman, a conservative lawyer, michael flynn, donald trump's former national security advisor, and bernie karick, an advisor who reportedly used washington, d.c., hotels to serve as command centers and that is where we begin this hour. tim miller is back, former rnc
spokesman, writer at large at the bulwark and nbc political analyst. also alexi mccammond, and robert costa is here, "washington post" national political reporter, coauthor of "peril." i start with you. so much of what we were looking for in this next batch were the people who were in the room you reported about, that command center at the willard total. tell me your reaction to today's subpoenas. >> you see the committee now trying to paint a picture of what happened during the entirety of the transition, the willard hotel on january 25th, 2021, was the culminating moment of a pressure campaign but by issuing subpoenas for bernie carric and bill stepien along with jason miller, trump's communications advisor during the transition, they're really trying to understand, it's clear, when i read carefully the subpoenas, the path between november 2020 and january 2021 as trump turns to people who are
enabling him again and again. >> robert costa, i read from this letter at the top of the last hour but i think it's worth doing it again. bill stepien was unlike mike flynn and john eastman, a mainstream republican, normal republican, advised chris christie before he took this turn in trump world, if you will. this is from his letter. as manager of the trump 2020 re-election campaign, you oversaw all aspects of the kpab. you then supervised the conversion of the trump presidential campaign to an effort focused on stop the steal messaging and related fund-raising. that messaging included the promotion of certain false claims related to voting machines despite an internal campaign memo in which staff determined such claims were false. the stop the steal messaging was echoed by individuals who attacked the u.s. capitol on january 6th in an effort to interfere with the peaceful and orderly transfer of power. dulgs lye the campaign reportedly urged officials to affect the outcome by, among other things, asking states to
delay or deny certification of electoral votes. this seems to be tying stepien to the money, that the campaign funds went from funding a campaign to funding stop the steal and the stop the steal messaging included the promotion of false claims related to voting machines, despite an internal memo in which staff determined claims were false. that line isn't in any of the letters, bill stepien called in the assignment of vetting the whack-a-doo b.s. that sidney powell and rudy giuliani were saying and it seems to be putting on paper, bill stepien, you knew it was b.s. what does this letter mean for mr. stepien? >> it's going to be impossible, it appears, for the campaign from 2020 to be some kind of isolated corporate entity. again and again during the transition period, trump uses and weaponizes his own campaign as he tries to make claims of voter fraud and make an attempt
to stay in power in early january. another example of this is not only the pain of the -- using campaign funds to pay for the willard war room as documented by "the washington post" but they used campaign letterhead on january 5th when trump wants to speak for pence and he's speaking for pence, even though pence doesn't have the position of endorsing trump's position on the election so the campaign is being used, giuliani is working within the campaign infrastructure. we have numerous scenes in our book of giuliani going over to arlington where the campaign is headquartered and taking command of the entire legal strategy to the chagrin of trump's actual campaign lawyers and so there was a blending of the outside and the inside during this transition period. they weren't sequestered. >> let me read, because you also broke the eastman memo, which adam kinzinger described as a blueprint for a coup. let me read from your reporting. you and bob woodward reported this in "peril" about the conversation on january 4th.
"i've been getting guidance that says i can't, pence said, glancing at his counsel. well, you can, east man said. his january 2nd memo to leave has expanded. its gist, have pence pause the process in congress so republicans and state legislatures could try to hold special sessions and consider sending another slate of electors. it also still asserted there were duelling slates and offered a scenario where vp pence opens the ballots and determines on his own which is valid but eastman acknowledged those alternative slates remain goals. you really need to listen to john. he's a respected constitutional scholar. hear him out, trump said. listen. listen to john. you read john eastman's memo and they cite the two-page version and the six-page version. tell me your reaction to what the subpoena suggests they're looking at mr. eastman for. >> the two-page version, it's important, that is the one that
circulated to mike lee of utah and others within the white house and eastman is at the nexus of trump's desperation in the final days of the presidency to try to come up with some strategy, some gambit to stay in power. eastman provides it. trump pushes eastman on pence on january 4th and a new question now that may even go to the supreme court is will john eastman be able to claim executive privilege protection in this situation? he has been speaking publicly to reporters in recent weeks, and this document memorialized his own memo, has been reported publicly. so, will he be able somehow to avoid testimony? he may try to prevent it for the time being, but that may go all the way to the high court. >> i want to read to you something that is going to need a little contextualizing, tim miller, and this is sort of the mythology and we'll get to tucker carlson in a moment. we started there with liz
cheney's remarks but the bulwark has some great reporting on what amounts to sort of a coup war game, i guess, is the most generous way to describe the intellectual aspect of the undertaking. this is from the bulwark's reporting. notes on an authoritarian conspiracy inside the claremont institute's 79 days to inauguration report. this is sort of a fictionalized scenario produced by the claremont institute. the sunrises on january 6, 2021, while a nation is in crisis. michigan's presidential electors are in dispute after a mysterious fire in detroit destroyed thousands of mail-in ballots ultimately throwing the election to congress. the nation's capital is overrun by riots. a republican member of congress is attacked and injured. i'm going to direct people there. this is fake. this is, like, right-wing sort of political porn but it lays out a scenario that if you read the subpoenas, i mean, at least ms. mccallum, someone i never heard of before, is subpoenaed
to explain a piece of this. she is subpoenaed to explain, for example, there's a publicly available recording of a voicemail you left for an unknown michigan state representative and the recording you wanted to know whether the trump re-election campaign could count on the representative. you told the representative that he had the authority to appoint an alternate slate of electors. the premeditation of what is emerging from the claremont institute, from mr. eastman, the specificity of which state's electors they would go after and then the blind fealty to the coup attempt is staggering. >> sure, look, nicole, i think in a different universe, this might just be some really pathetic, you know, sort of conservative dystopian fan fiction that, you know, a bunch of guys in their basements were playing around with to get their rocks off. but the unfortunate part is that it's these kind of sad, pathetic
extremists, really, who have, if you go and read the article in the bulwark, they really have a blood lust, they're kind of fantasizing about what might happen after the election and how battles might come into the streets and we might have to call in the oath keepers and have cops from certain cities reject their mayors' orders and stand with mr. trump. this kind of ridiculous fan fiction was being put together by eastman, by the incoming head of the heritage foundation, and by another other, quote, unquote, i hate to use this word, conservative intellectuals who had the president's ear during this key time that robert costa talks about, and i think that this new reporting, i think, just shines further light on the fact that there was kind of an extremely radical group that had the president's ear, that had conservative legal minds that were -- are respected in conservative circles, maybe less so today than they were
then, who wanted to put in place a plan for an actual coup and potentially -- and the potential violence that would be associated with that. and so you know, i think that as you look at these subpoenas, what you see is two groups. like the groups that were stoking that, you know, with eastman and i think carric to a certain extent and then another group which you were just referring to with stepien who are basically guilty of this, how long can we humor them? can we continue to humor those who are advancing these ridiculous lies and advancing this kind of dystopian anti-democratic fan fiction in order to rub the president's belly and keep him happy for a few more weeks? and so, you know, it was these sort of two factions within trump's orbit that are both enabling them. one kind of pushing things further and further in the eastman category, and another just kind of going along with the ride and trying not to get in trouble, which are the stepien and the supposed
establishment folks like, as bob mentioned, mike lee, who was warned about this, saw all this documentation and rather than waving it around and going on tv and saying, this is crazy, we must stop this, basically said, these are just some cranks, let's hope this goes away. and obviously it didn't. >> and these guys think the biggest problem is porn and video games. i want to come to what liz cheney pointed out, and that is the pernicious and dangerous nature of perhaps the most high-profile spreader of this fan fiction narrative around the insurrection and alexi, i want to put up a fact check. i'm not going to play any of what tucker carlson produced and broadcast but this is the fact check around the patriot purge. literally everything in it, it looks like, was a lie. that has been knocked down by fact checkers. now we all know, those of us who consume fact checks, are not the audience for tucker carlson's
propaganda video but i wonder what you make of liz cheney staking out ground and calling it out. adam kinzinger says tucker carlson is a manipulative son of a bitch. the rage works. he created rage, talking about pete buttigieg learning to breast-feed, come on, man, you're obviously ignorant, which i don't think. i think tucker's really smart. you're a manipulative son of a bitch who manipulates your viewers for your own personal profit so whatever the 1/6 committee is in possession of, alexi, it's clear that congressman kinzinger and congresswoman liz cheney are focused on tucker carlson's role in all this. >> well, and that's especially because he's become a larger and louder kind of defining figure within this new wing of the republican party that's emerged under donald trump since he was running for office in the 2016 election. and you know, he kind of represents that conspiracy theory mindset or that, you know, fan fiction you were just
referencing from the bulwark, as you were reading it, i was thinking about how that premise is not totally dissimilar from the conspiracy theories and mis and disinformation campaigns that are driving large swaths of republicans and republicans figures like tucker carlson, donald trump, and others, trying to say that january 6th was just a walk in the park, that the 2020 election was fraudulent and rigged, that vaccines are putting microchips in our arms, that all sounds like crazy fan fiction to me, and that's kind of the leading or beating pulse, rather, of a lot of the republican party right now. one really remarkable thing for me, nicole, that i think represents all this is that congressman john bacon from nebraska, the republican who voted for infrastructure, literally had to try to correct the record about disinformation being spread about what he voted for by presumably a republican voter and he had -- he felt compelled to answer this guy whose handle on twitter is the
wuhan clan. that shows who's driving republicans and who's forcing them to answer because they're spreading this disinformation that other republicans are believing. it's just all gotten out of hand. >> brad raffensperger spoke out on it as well earlier today. let me show you guys that. >> we are facing falsehoods after falsehoods and there was a rumor whack-a-mole and we continue to knock them down but we have 80 million twitter followers versus our office with maybe 40,000 on a good day. it's tough to win that battle. >> tim, he's speaking to the logistical hurdles of combatting disinformation on tucker carlson or from donald trump. saying that the georgia secretary of state's office with the measly 40,000 followers doesn't stand a chance. >> there's no doubt about that. and look, these -- >> sorry. go, tim, then alexi. >> yeah, no, just briefly, sorry, alexi. look, there's -- it's a closed
environment and i think this is really challenging, so if republican viewers -- if you think about it, if it's facebook, talk radio, if it's tucker's show, you know, they're reading the daily wire, they're reading breitbart. these ideas aren't challenged and they congeal. if you're someone reading all this and you say, oh, it's a false flag, the fbi was i didn't need january 6th. wait a minute, there were hundreds of people that stormed the capitol. the fbi that you have been talking about being an incompetent part of the establishment, you know, now what, convinced and tricked hundreds, thousands of people to storm the capitol? and it's ridiculous on its face. but folks don't make those sorts of connections because they don't have to. they don't have to be challenged by anyone outside of their world view. and i think that if you're a raffensperger or a bacon who is trying to kind of navigate these two worlds, it's hard to speak to them in a way that breaks
through, because the information they're getting is so distant from what's happening on earth. >> alexi, it always struck me that the moment -- and tim lived this and robert costa covered this, as did you -- the moment donald trump sort of ascended on the political stage, the asymmetry between not just the way he campaigned but the way right-wing media amplified all of his statements without fact checking, without ever booking anybody that challenged them was sort of the their own purging of any trump detractors from the ranks of fox news and other places, with a few exceptions of chris wallace and i guess shep smith at the time. that's never been matched on the other side of the aisle. do democrats sort of talk about their challenges and the inability to drive a single message aided by all the things that aid the trumpian gop?
>> i think what you see is they mostly try to not really engage with all the things that are driving republican candidates and elected officials and voters around the country because they know that it's not just factually incorrect most times but it's a trap. it's republicans trying to bait them into talking about something that is a distraction and that is tapping into these culture wars. and i think democrats, truthfully, as you know, as well as i do, are really just trying to figure out a cohesive message within their own party, not even really being concerned with the republican party because it seems like the two parties are so far apart at this point and the republican party has become led by the more extreme folks in their party that democrats are not even worried with what they're doing. they're more focused on getting themselves in line. >> tim miller, alexi mccammond, robert costa, thank you so much. when we come back, a comprehensive look at the mountain of new laws introduced by republicans across the country designed to or with the effect of undermining democracy. top voting rights attorney marc
elias will be our next guest as democrats fight back. plus, reigning nfl mvp aaron rodgers is getting slammed by hall of famers and dropped by sponsors for lying about his vaccine status. and how democrats can turn the tables on republicans and take the sting out of the accusation that they have become too woke. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. nues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. why give your family just ordinary eggs when they can enjoy the best? eggland's best. the only eggs with more fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. because the way we care is anything but ordinary. ♪♪
across the country to fix the results, to fix the results of future elections. >> that was maine senator angus king sounding the alarms on the move by republicans at the state level to not just suppress the vote but override it or at least be prepared to do so entirely. today, the brennan center for justice is out with a chilling report highlighting the push by republicans at the state level to enact laws that would allow them to overturn free and fair elections. the authors of the report highlighting this. the partisan sabotage bills are new and dangerous twist, each is driven by the big lie that there is widespread voter fraud, and each is part of a broader, ongoing partisan project to thwart democratic elections and rig electoral outcomes. each is anti-democratic and toxic to a free and fair society, and each demands urgent intervention by congress to prevent irreparable corruption of our electoral system. election law attorney marc elias writing in his newsletter,
highlights that while these attempts to abolish america as a democratic country are rapidly gaining momentum, they've been long in the making. last week marked the one-year anniversary of trump's election defeat but today marks the five-year anniversary of how the national nightmare began. the big lie was born in the aftermath of the 2020 election, but it was conceived on election day in 2016. without the 2016 election, there is no big lie. no violent insurrection. no unraveling of democracy. joining us now is marc elias, voting rights attorney and founder of the democracy docket. this looked like you sort of sitting down and taking stock of what the last five years have wrought. tell us what that perspective looks like because we often talk to you with our noses pressed up at the glass at the latest voter express law in texas or georgia, but tell me what that five-year perspective looks like. >> yeah, thanks for having me on. as we were approaching the
one-year anniversary of the 2020 election, and today is also the one-year from the 2022 election, i was trying to write about where we are in this struggle, and i kept coming back to the fact that you really need to go back to the election in november of 2016. i joke with people all the time that we're never more than a few years away from the most important election of our lifetime, but the truth is, the most important election of our lifetime was in november of 2016. because it is what launched donald trump and the big lie from an obscure, you know, real estate scoundrel to the highest office in the united states. so, that's where i came at this from, and when you look at it, you realize that the big lie didn't start in 2020. it began with donald trump telling lies about why he lost
the popular vote in 2016. it continued with lies about why his supporters were not doing better in their elections. and then it culminated with his re-election in 2020, but we're not done with it yet. we're going to see this big lie continue. >> you know, i sort of go back to 2016 and watching the likes of chris christie get behind donald trump and just feeling devastated by the party getting behind trump, but i don't think trump alone could be that wrecking ball to democracy. i have, since election day 2020, been more heartbroken by formerly normal republicans, people like mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy, and i wonder when you sort of suss out who is doing the most harm to democracy, who you put first, second, third, and fourth. >> yeah, i agree with you.
look, martin luther king jr. said it is not the act of bigotry of bad people, it's the appalling silence of good people that is most damaging, and you know, i thought i knew who i was dealing with on the other side in 2012 and 2014 and even in 2016. i've been surprised and deeply disappointed to watch people who i didn't agree with, ideologically, and i didn't agree with around policy, but who i thought we shared a common understanding as to what is and is not fair play and what is and is not free and fair elections. but much of that dissolved. as you know, you're one of the few who stood by those principles, there are very, very few republicans who did so. >> when you look at the results of the first and only election that we've seen, and it's not a perfect laboratory of where the
voters stand but it's one of the only snapshots we have, i'm alarmed that democracy and the preservation of democracy and while at least in virginia, glenn youngkin was certainly not pro-insurrection, it wasn't a pillar of his campaign to be against it, and everybody who participated. do you worry that the preservation of our democracy isn't front of mind for voters with -- and this is not a voter problem. this is always a campaign issue, not an indictment of the voters. they're worrying about covid. they're worrying about kids in class, they're worried about the cost of things. are you worried that it's getting lost in the conversation? >> i'm terrified by that. i'm terrified that it's getting lost in the conversation. and i am, every day, feeling like i am pushing a boulder up the hill only to have it roll back on me as i try to make this argument. 20 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, people are going to ask what did you do when democracy was at stake?
that literally is the only thing history will remember about this time. it's not going to remember all the signal and noise that was going on. it's not even going to remember some of the big economic issues facing the country as seriously as they are. ask your audience, how many people remember what other legislation passed in 1965 other than the voting rights act and the extension of the great society? you know, most of the daily give-and-take that legislatures deal with, whether it's congress or state legislatures, get swept aside, but history's going to judge us. they're going to judge you. they're going to judge me. they're going to judge every member of the house and senate and governor and state legislature. what did you do when democracy was at stake? and i, for one, may not succeed. you may not succeed. but at least we will have said we did everything we could. >> do you feel -- have you lost -- i mean, i won't put
words in your mouth. are you optimistic that anything will happen at the federal level on voting rights legislation? >> look, i have to remain both optimistic and realistic. you know, we're litigating right now in 31 cases in 18 states, and that's a combination of voting rights cases, redistricting cases. most of those cases would be dramatically altered or go away if congress passed the freedom to vote act and the john lewis voting rights advancement act, and it was signed by the president. so, you know, i'm realistic about the fact that i'm in court so they haven't passed it, but i'm hopeful that there's still time. >> marc elias, we will be those people 50 years from now saying, we thought they should do more. we told them. but hopefully, hopefully everyone will have listened and heeded your calls. thank you for spending time with us, my friend, and for everything you do.
>> thank you, and thank you for every day hammering this point home too. >> thank you. when we come back, a harsh indictment of nfl superstar aaron rodgers by hall of famer terry bradshaw as the fallout over the lie rodgers told about his covid vaccination status seems to be getting worse for him. that's next. tting worse for him. atth's next. as someone who resembles someone else, i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you
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would have just come to the naval academy and learned how to be honest. >> yeah. >> learned not to lie, because that's what you did, aaron. you lied to everyone. i understand immunized. what you were doing was taking stuff that would keep you from getting covid-19. you got covid-19. ivermectin is a cattle dewormer. sorry, folks, that's what it is. we are a divided nation politically. we're a divided nation on the covid-19, whether or not to take the vaccine, and unfortunately we got players that pretty much think only about themselves and i'm extremely disappointed in the actions of aaron rodgers. >> sums it all up there. that was nfl hall of famer terry bradshaw yesterday from the naval academy in annapolis on the aaron rodgers scandal, situation. the news that green bay packers starting quarterback, the reigning mvp of the nfl, tested positive for covid last week also uncovered the truth about his vaccine status, notably that he is not vaccinated. though he had implied,
suggested, before that he had been immunized, as you heard bradshaw say there. on friday, rodgers said he's since taken the highly warned against animal dewormer ivermectin after, quote, consulting with joe rogan, who's come under fire. he also said, everyone on the squad knew i was not vaccinated. everyone in the organization knew i was not vaccinated. i wasn't hiding it from anybody. jemele hill writes this in the "atlantic." both the packers and the league itself have stood idly by as the reigning nfl mvp apparently violated safety protocols and jeopardized the health of others around him. if the league lets rodgers and the packers slide, it will prove the quarterback right. he was smart enough to know that the rules didn't apply to a star as big as him. let's bring in jemele hill, contributing writer to "the atlantic," host of the "jemele hill is unbothered" podcast on
spotify. i want to read more from your piece, but tell me what you think about how we got here. >> it's really simple. we got here because aaron rodgers lied. and he could use mislead. he could use all these other euphemisms for what he did but it was really a lie. he knew just by the simple act of appearing before the media without a mask, because according to nfl protocols, when you're inside the facility, a team facility, you're supposed to wear a mask, and he wasn't. and we've seen other unvaccinated players either have to conduct their media interviews via zoom or they will be in the press conferences with a mask on because there are members of the media in there and they don't want to jeopardize their safety and so aaron rodgers by even saying "immunized," by this fancy word play, what he was trying to do was avoid the scrutiny and the heat that he's getting now and as much as i am disappointed that kirk cousins, the quarterback for the minnesota vikings, that kyrie irving, the star guard for the brooklyn nets, have also not been vaccinated, and kyrie is
not currently playing with the nets because of new york's vaccine -- their vaccine mandate, they were at least honest. they were up front and whatever criticism they got, they took. aaron rodgers, on the other hand, did not want to be questioned. he didn't want to be challenged. and therefore, that's why he said he was immunized as opposed to vaccinated. aaron rodgers is very smart. that's why they were considering him to be the next host of "jeopardy!" and he's smart enough to know the difference between saying you're immunized and saying you're vaccinated. >> jemele, from talking to you and trying to understand sort of the incentive structures for athletes, it seems like the team and the good of the team, if it's not that benevolent, the success of the team seems to be one of the motivating factors. it seems like such an f.u. to the teammates to have lied about this, to not be vaccinated but to have insinuated that he was immunized. what's your understanding of the fallout among his teammates?
>> you know, here's the thing about professional football players. they're able to compartmentalize very well. let's be honest that a lot of them play with different types of personalities in the locker room. they play with some people who have done some things that are very unsavory. i mean, there are players that play with people who are accused of domestic violence, of sexual assault, and they just keep on sort of clocking into work and earning their living and that's it. so, i don't know if in the immediate we will see a fallout from his teammates. certainly, i'm sure, they don't like answering questions about his vaccination status as they try to prepare for their next opponent. but what will be interesting, nicole, is, like, look, the packers, they just lost sunday's game. aaron rodgers didn't play. they had to start a very inexperienced quarterback. his backup, jordan love. and you know, now they're 7-2. it cost them a game. there are multiple other teams that are vying for the top seed in the nfl playoffs and if this -- losing this game winds up costing them, down the road,
then you may see a different reaction from his teammates, because part of, you know, getting your salary and making money means you got to be successful, and so if that success has been compromised by this, they may have a different opinion when the season ends. >> i mean, how much blame -- you're pretty harsh on the team and aaron rodgers himself says everybody on the squad knew i wasn't vaccinated, everyone in the organization knew i wasn't vaccinated. i wasn't hiding from anybody. how much of the responsibility do you assign to the organization itself? >> i assign a lot. i think that they knew what kind of message aaron rodgers was sending, and yes, internally, they may have known differently and the nfl may have also known as well if the report is believed to be true or seems like it is true, since aaron rodgers talked about it, that he handed the nfl a 500-page report about why he should be allowed to consider this alternative treatment as a vaccine, which is very interesting, because
suddenly he turns into a scientist right on the fly where he can hand in the report. >> with help from joe rogan. >> doctors have been working -- exactly. i mean, damn all of that because we've been working on this all their entire careers. aaron rodgers has figured this out in his 500 pages. but i digress. nevertheless, i think they are complicit in allowing people to assume that aaron rodgers was vaccinated, and if he was not even -- and there's other instances where, you know, on the sideline, he wasn't wearing a mask and other infractions that people have pointed out since, and you have to ask the next question, which is, okay, if aaron rodgers was doing this in plain sight, how are we so sure he was actually following the protocols in the building? where they're asking to trust that he was when we could see at times he wasn't. so, i think that they have a lot of questions that they need to answer, and other teams who have had to follow these protocols certainly have every right to be upset if it looks like a team is
being held to a different standard. >> yeah, i mean, such a good point. the conduct caught on film usually represents the best of, not the worst. jemele hill, we'll stay on this with your help. thank you for spending time with us to talk about your piece. nice to see you. >> good to see you too, nicole. when we come back, fixing, if it needs to be fixed, the democrats' messaging challenges. how they can turn the criticism attack of being too woke on its head. turn it into a positive. can it be done? our next guest will answer that question. e done our next guest will answer that question
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it's this stupid wokeness. some of these people need to go to a woke detox center or something. the expression of language that people just don't use and there's a backlash and a frustration at that. terry got caught up. he's a good friend of mine. he's a good guy. you know, he got caught up in something national. we got to change this and not be about changing dictionaries and change laws. >> that was james carville in the wake of election day last week, blaming democrats' wokeness as the reason for their losses across the board and starting a conversation of very, very vibrant one about how exactly democrats have lost some of the good things they had going for them as congressman connolly said earlier in this program, 13-point swing since one year ago, seemingly as a reaction to part of that conversation, our friend matt
dowd chimed in. as they stat in church today, i was thinking, if jesus were here today, he would be accused of being woke. how about we just say it is human decency to treat all with respect and dignity and it is constitutional to say all men and women are equal. joining us now, onset, is my long-time friend, matt dowd. he was chief strategist to george w. bush's re-election campaign. he's now a democratic candidate for texas lieutenant governor, author of the new book, "revelations of the river." we'll get to the book in a second. i want to try to nail you down on where you have come down on, i think, this is probably not a very helpful debate to have about wokeness but i wonder what you think. >> well, first, i don't ever think it's a really good thing for old white guys to use the term "woke," right? and frame the reference of that. to me, this is, like, it's another thing like critical race theory. people say this word and it's taken on a pejorative but there's no -- nobody knows what it means. it's accusing other people of it. and as i said in my tweet, and
i've tried to say, how about we just treat everybody with decency and respect and a common sense of -- that they belong here. and obviously, that all men and women are created equal. that's what we need to get to. the only people that this seems to be a fire about is, to get t. the only people that this seems to be a fire about is again in the sort of right wing eco-system there and we need to get back to the common values that every american connected to and that is the congress we need to have. i don't think terry mcauliffe lost virginia because of the woke culture in all of this. he probably, in my view, lost more because he talked about donald trump too much. and i think that is what the problem with the voters have right now. they want to have this battle on election, in their mind donald trump is yesterday even though we all know he sort of surfaces in this but they want to know your candidacy versus the other person and what the difference and what your going to do in my
life. quit talking about donald trump. >> sow don't think education, which was wrapped up in a whole bunk of things, it wasn't just the pledge from critical race theory but it meant something to virginia voters. i hear and you said that and they went berserk, that it is not taught in schools it is an attack that connotes something that isn't real, but it is real to the voters who swung in a huge way in the suburbs and ran up margins for glenn youngkin in rural virginia. >> this is the problem that i want and my candidacy want to help zks in this and i said this during the 2004 campaign, any time the other side is using your term, you're winning. and in the course of the race. so if they're using your terminology, you're winning in in case. the problem that happened with terry mcauliffe is he made that, in my view, mistake when he said parents shouldn't be involved in education. there is a way to say that.
there is a way to say that teachers should be able to teach and history should be provided in schools anz teach science and parents should be involved in the education of their own children. there is a we to talk about that. but every time democrats try to get into a debate, factual as it is, and they're using republicans terms, republicans are winning when they use, when the other side uses their terms. >> so what do you think the best strategy is for democrats to try to sort of defy all of that history of a president's party suffering in the midterm elections a year from now. >> so i think part of it is there is -- the voters more are distinguishing between how they view somebody nationally so i think people could dislike joe biden and not like something about him, and vote for the democrats and we see it already in generic polling and joe biden's numbers are under water but democrats still have an advantage. you saw it in virginia with donald trump. people dislike donald trump but they voted for glenn youngkin. i think the bigger thing is
democrats have to quit arguing about policies. policies are important but voters vote on values and republicans have understand that for far longer than democrats do. and there are values that democrats could run on. common decency, and the common good, respect, tolerance, integrity, all of those values, but before you get to somebody's head and a ten-point policy plan, you have to get to the guy. >> yeah. i remember you saying that in closed door meetings. talk about the book. i read it. >> i know you did. >> i blurbed it before you were a candidate. and we were going to talk about the mixing of your hard edges but your sort of career in politics and then what i know to be a real passion of yours. every time i saw you, you were reading a book about spirituality and so i've known this to be your passion but this is the first time you've written
about it. >> in this way, i didn't write this book thinking i would be a candidate in the midst of this cruelty in politics but it is a book basically about this time of troubled time and disruption and it seems to be a large amount of hate and meanness. how could we find our center and what matters to us and i think all of us through covid, through a global meltdown, through climate change, the fascinating thing to me is all of the demonstrations of these issues, nicolle, show how connected we are but our politics has been completely disconnected. so at a time when the globe now effects all of us is in so many different ways, the only way to respond is to become more connected to it and i think i would ask everybody and i know this is you, is to sit back, take some moments of quiet, take some moments of time and really figure out what your heart and your soul is calling and calling you to do and how you could be of service. all of us could do something.
it doesn't mean running for office, or sitting in the anchor chair, it could be anything. it could be helping a soup kitchen or treating someone nice at the grocery store. we all have our way in the stone in the pond to ripple across and do this. i don't think it is going to be fixed top down but only by us changing our ways in our own lives. >> so i want to know what that looks like. because i'm not a good -- i have the meditation apps on my phone and i get mad after two minutes and i could lay with my son and watch him fall asleep and when he's two minutes up and i have the phone up and i'm enraged by something on twitter. how do you keep the zen? >> have i to practice it now because i'm in the midst of it in a candidacy against one of the most incompetent people which is the lieutenant governor of texas here and all of the stuff that comes at you in the
midst of this. it is a constant practice and we have to have a practice to stay centered in it. but to me the only way that goodness wins and only way compassion wins and the only way decency wins is not by doing an ends to justify the means. republicans have the ends, to justify the means. they'll do anything in that. for us to win, and for democrats to win and really take partisanship out of it for the good to succeed, which i believe love conquers but maybe not not moment and that it will be right over time. it is to show a different way to do this. and when you could be strong and you could -- as you know, you could be compelling and you could speak out and you could say the truth, but you also can treat everybody de sently as you do that and not devolve into the donald trump ville of where the republicans are. they have that brand covered and so trying to outbrand them on that. you're not going to win. to best way to do it is to do the opposite. >> it is a beautiful book.
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thank you so much for letting us into your home during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> we have a lot to get to including something that was covered, the subpoenas coming in from the insurrection committee and hitting trump's closest allies. we have that for you with a very special legal guest. but our top story is president biden sealing this major bipartisan victory on the largest infrastructure package since when? back to fdr. it is an acleavement that has strambled some of the hot takes