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tv   Stone Ghosts in the South  MSNBC  October 29, 2021 9:15pm-10:00pm PDT

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just watch travel war which traveled across the u.s. to see how they tell the story of their civil war and lay bare a nation in denial. haunted by and bitter pass and the story that it refuses to tell. from flags and monuments in squares, from family photos and cemeteries. we, the living, continue to grapple with how to confront the singular event of national trauma in the horrific system of enslavement at its deepest roots. and continue grappling during
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this time of reckoning in america, is what compelled me to explore the meaning of this defining event remains. in the months after george floyd was killed by minneapolis police, 30 confederate monuments were taken down in the united states. that's also what happened in 2017 after heather hire was murdered in charlottesville, virginia, while protesting a white supremacist protest. they came down that year, that's the year i began studying our stories, what they mean to the people who built them and what they mean to the people who tore them down. here is a special presentation of what i found during that my travels. this is stone ghost in the south. is stone ghost in the south. >> in 2017, hundreds of white
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nationalists descended on charlottesville virginia to defend a on humans. their arrival marks the beginning of 24 hours of violent clashes with protesters. one person was killed, others were beaten. [noise] >> after the unlawful assembly was declared, it was very festive, it felt like we won. that's when we heard this loud thing. one car got pushed into the intersection, another car got pushed right behind it, it was chaos. >> it's hard to imagine that such a big moment happened in this little space. >> that's common in america? >> absolutely, absolutely. this is what we were, all of the small spaces can set the stage for huge explosions.
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>> the battle in charlottesville seem to be over a single statue. it's a battle that has been repeated in cities across the country. but more than 1500 monuments to the confederacy remains, honoring those who fought and died to keep black americans, like my ancestors, in bondage. so i decided to travel the south to learn for myself just how deep the roots of this fight are buried. i'm looking for understanding, for something that would make sense. along the way, i visited monuments, those that aren't so easily removed, the artifacts, small enough for some to ignore. the landmarks, too large to take down, and the legacy that resides in our memory and in our blood, because the fight was always about more than just a statue. beautiful morning in virginia.
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i didn't want to take this journey alone, so i asked my friend, john, a reporter for the new york times to join me, to help process what it all means. >> what's going on man? >> good to see you. >> four years we talked about race and history, how his people came to america by way of trinidad and mind to the slave trade. it just the natural from the joint. in 2017, the city council of fredericksburg took up the question of whether to remove a slave auction block that stands on the corner of the middle of downtown. we're about to see an auction block where people were sold. it's crazy, when you look at the old advertisements. seven strong negroes for sale. but the idea that we're not just talking about what we consider manual labor, we're talking about professionals.
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>> when my uncle was young he took a picture on the slave block from a caucasian who wanted him to take a picture. for him it was about getting the money because he paid him, and when my grandfather realized that he had stood on that block to have his picture taken, my grandfather whipped him and threw the money away. and he told him what the block was, and why he was never to go on that lock again. that story has been with us since we were little children. this says, not only did we not want you here but we still don't want you here. >> the lone black councilman push for a vote to remove the block, the six white members said they voted to keep it in his place to educate future generations. >> i heard you say that it may be the most historic city in america? >> indeed, our city is the history of our nation. >> i walk by this law office, i
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walked by the home my mother was born in. >> you also walk by and auction block, right? >> i do. >> what does that mean in terms of the history? at some point you arrive at a place where humans were bought and sold by the people here. >> that auction block is an artifact. the very fact that you can stand where somebody was treated as property, and where families were separated is very moving. it's like what germany did when they kept off switch and all. don't ever forget, you can't ever forget how horrible that was. >> this councilman propose removing the block. >> the auction block has been on my mind for a long time, since i was a kid, you know?
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i used to see people stand on it and i saw that. that rips your soul apart. my stance was always okay, it needs to go. it came down to a vote and it was a 6 to 1 vote. >> do you believe there is a way to do the bloc in a respectful way and keep it there? >> i can't change my view. what we can do is tell a story that's a more in-depth story. >> when you walk by it, you walk by with your children, and with your people, what is the message? >> there's a possibility you're grant great grandfather was sold here. >> the fight over the block is what is in our history books? what it represents as a rippling effect that exist in the fabric -- >> that's america, that's just america. >> the black barbershop has always been a place of community, where wisdom is passed and stories are traded. today is no different. >> what was it like growing up that auction block right there on the corner? >> it was an embarrassment.
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i don't need to see that block to know with the past was. >> it made you mad because i could see my great grandma, my great grandpa, you bring them in on the boat and you sell them. how do you try to memorialize something like that? >> it is unfair and unreal that people can actually sit there and say oh, we're just saving history. no, what you're doing is bidding on our faces. that's what you're doing. >> yes across the river from downtown is this plantation where hundreds of slaves toiled for nearly a century. you imagine the conversation that happened here, the idea that people are separated from their families, tortured. but on the flip side, the fear that you could be sold at that auction. >> can you imagine from down there you look up here and you see this house, but you're not thinking that, you're not thinking i want to go there, that's the house of horrors, that's a house that is haunted. >> when you're an enslaved
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person, the only thing that is on the horizon's servitude or death, or some running away. the union army arrived here, and for the white folks they said that it was mine, and it was terror. thousands of black folks fled to join the army. can you imagine that moment? interview, kentucky, the birthplace of jefferson davis the state is wrestling with telling a fuller story over these memorials including a larger than life monument dedicated to the only president of the confederacy. there it is look at that, my goodness. >> that is huge. >> when you think about the conversation and debate, especially over the last year, what will do the monuments and
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artifacts that can be torn down as easily as statues, how do they factor into this debate? when you talk about a statue that 300 feet tall. >> that's where we're really moving into in the past few years, is talking about the construction of confederate memory in kentucky. rooted specifically in who are the groups that are raising money to create these monuments that populate our landscape today. start to promote it, start to sell it back to, not just to the south, but the entire nation. retailing the history of the entire nation. and realizing that the memorial landscape and that this history comes much later. this history is situated within the story of the jim crow south. >> during the early 20th century, groups loyal to the confederacy began promoting a revisionist spin on the civil war. the so-called lost cause was about more memorializing the dead confederates. it was about pinning the north as an occupying force and the south as mobile defenders of virtue. all while minimizing the role
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of slavery. their influence would fuel generate finch of southern segregationists and the stage for the old south. at the united daughters of the confederacy were especially prolific. starting in the 1890s, they put up at least 700 memorials to the confederacy. symbols of the confederacy aren't all copper and stone. for decades, descendants of veterans have connected to the past through civil war reenactments. jeff stokes has been reliving this history for 25 years. he counts dozens of confederate soldiers in his family tree. what are we looking at here? this is a beautiful shot? >> this is a six pounder, model 1941. we looked it over and he said, yeah, i can make those. so that's why first off we thought, why not? that was a hot day. >> when you're out there and you're in your uniform and you see the flags, is there a connection to the past? is that what hinges -- >> yes, there is a connection to the past. yes.
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if you're interested in history, it's ten time it's better than reading about in the book. so, i guess it gives you a greater appreciation of your forebears and the suffering they went through. >> is that appreciate dampened at all for you by the fact that they were fighting for the cause of the slavery states? you >> have to get into the mind of what the 19th century mind. or get into the 18th century mind. it is pretty hard to do. you have to do a lot of reading. >> the library is full of reading about why people decided that it was worth fighting and dying to own people and send people. i don't know if -- that's >> and again, one of the topics -- >> it's a big topic. that's a big topic! >> we'll, if you didn't own state of slaves, it's not such a big topic. >> do you think the veteran at all and how we should view these monuments, there's a large population of americans those monuments represent them not being human? >> so, should we squash it?
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do we rewrite history? if you don't have some type of proof, generations from now, you have people arguing that eight major spanish. >> considering that for a great number of people, those things represent deep trauma and greet violence against people. >> have we got beyond that? >> have we? >> well, how many people living in america today we're sleeves? how many people living in america today own sleeves? it's roughly zero, so we should've gotten beyond. >> but we don't have, myself for example, we don't have our last names, a religion, my tongues. >> this language is not my language either. >> right, but you benefit. >> everybody in america has a benefit. it's the greatest country in the world. >> but not everyone has a benefit of slavery. >> everybody living in america today has a great benefit. >> the people of african
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descent in this country, people descendants of slaves, what benefit do they get from slavery? >> they're here. >> what's amazing is you get such a sense of place. this could be any town, usc, but you're surrounded by momentous from the past. right? including momentous and monuments the confederacy. >> how do you grapple with that? >> there is as much division because different things -- there is a lack of consideration of how this might make us as americans feel. black americans feel. there seems to be this lock on the idea that we can't throw a history. >> but you're not telling the whole truth history. >> coming up, my conversation with a descendant of the president of the confederacy. jefferson davis. that's ahead when "stone ghosts in the south" continues after this.
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the bloodline. we reached out to the great, great grandson of jefferson davis. he's trying to reclaim his family legacy from those who see davis as a hero of white supremacy. the night before our meeting, we slept in the vicksburg home of davis. jefferson's brother in mentor. >> you say you're a davis descendant in mississippi, you better be ready. it brings responsibility. people are assuming you're going to be a davis. somebody asked me why i don't dress up like him. >> hayes davis still holds on to artifacts from his great, great grandfather. a book he signed. a letter he sent. a chair he sat in. is there more residents with something that you own van something in a public square? >> to me, yes, absolutely. because it is handed down. this chair is his remembrance to me. a confederate statue, when those folks put that up, had a reference to them. >> how do you balance or reconcile or wrestle with the dual narratives around
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jefferson davis? one that we've all heard is the first and only president of the confederacy. on the other hand, they're 52 years of his life before the civil war. i >> don't know if i reconcile them as much as i try to bring them together to have a complete understanding. and when we put that four years of his life, which is 5% in total perspective, is it what it is we want to remember? do we want to have a complete understanding of the entire it four years of his life? >> but that four years is a pretty they care for years. right? >> pretty big for years because it was the most dramatic part of american history, in a lot of respects. it's a position he was appointed to, not one he wanted. >> the facts that we do know about jefferson davis is he supported the expansion of slavery even before the civil war, before he became president of the confederacy. he did believe that black people were inferior to white people. in your mind, does that tarnish his legacy at all? >> what bothers me the most is what you just said.
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the statements he made a reference to the slaves were his own feeling about their status. and i cannot see that i support that. but again, it's the perspective of the time and the place that he lived. it is not the most favorable aspect of his part of his character that we have to understand. >> i have to wonder, are you welcomed in those groups that are still so staunchly pro confederate? they do want to see anything happen to statues? are you welcome in the spaces? >> there's a pro confederate folks, i would say i'd probably not. >> before leaving town, we there is one more stop we should make if we really want to understand what keep so many southern whites rooted to the confederacy. could you spell your first and last name for us? >> my first name gordon. my last name cotton. just like you make. >> so, all this fuss over the
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confederate statues and the flag and slavery, is it time for us to move forward? >> no, if we're going to move forward on this will leave everything out of our history. are we going to be selective in what we're going to keep our guy to forget? >> but this idea though that these men were fighting to maintain their system of slavery. >> that was it all they were fighting for. they were fighting for our homes. the whole thing was based on money. most things are. >> going back to the charlottesville, someone was killed. someone was shot at. someone else was beaten up. does it surprise you when you see that people are that virulent about their support in defense of robert e. lee and the rest? >> well, there are no once that started it. as best as i can understand that. but they're not the ones that started it. had the people not wanted to tear down a beautiful monument, it wouldn't have happened. >> should they be moved to somewhere where they could be respected, not in the place of a public display were is sending a certain kind of
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message? >> i totally disagree with you. it happened right here, we commemorate a here. >> what do you think of jefferson davis? >> he is my personal hero. i think he's one of the great men of american history. >> what about him obviously being someone who supported slavery? should that diminish or tarnish his legacy? >> no. i think rain up in this community, seven miles from wrightsville, going to a school named jefferson davis, can destroy what they can but they will never destroy the nature of the man. >> how much do you get to the idea of these are men of their time? what does that mean? >> certainly they were men of their time, but does that do we forgive that? >> having these conversation is kind of weird with some people. they're not able to separate advocating for slavery. they may see but, they were great guys who had a lot of accomplishments.
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that's hard to square. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> can you imagine this filled with people and tear gas? police on horseback. people being beaten and bloodied out here. this is still our history. alabama play such a crucial role in some of the most infamous periods of violence, but also of several arts progress. >> so, this place here please our new role. it's significant on one side and of history because edmund pettus was famed as a confederate soldier, leader and grand dragon. but also we associate him, his bridge with the fight for black civil rights. >> throughout this whole trip, we've heard people talking about you can't lose history,
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this is one of the cases where i think if someone says that, it kind of makes sense to me. >> switches in general william, this senator and congressman benjamin. >> jefferson davis. grandmaster of the klan. this monument was erected october 7th 2000. there is no way to describe this man. this monument stands at our perpetual look respect for the south's finest heroes. up next, the southern history that is not told in these monuments, the horrors of slavery and of lynchings. you will meet a woman whose
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father was lynched and erected her own plaque to immortalize the place he was murdered just 20 miles from the alabama capital. stone goes in the south's continues right after this. s right after this ur biggest project yet. worth is giving the people who build it a solid foundation. wealth is shutting down the office for mike's retirement party. worth is giving the employee who spent half his life with you, the party of a lifetime. wealth is watching your business grow. worth is watching your employees grow with it. principal. for all it's worth. ♪ ♪ don't be fooled by the bike. or judge him by his jacket. while ted's eyes are on the road, his heart stays home. he's got gloria, and 10 grand-babies, to prove it. but his back made weekend rides tough, so ted called on the card that's even tougher. and the medicare coverage trusted by more doctors.
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were judged by their skill, their price, their complexion. >> the daughters of the confederacy they were an active group. look at this, the nightly as of the nightly race. i'm assuming not africans. a deathless all of chivalry,
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it's about sullivan chivalry, standing for their homes, their farms, their children. >> there is no tearing this thing down, this will bloom here, this is in some little town square, this is the state house of alabama. some memorials are easier to find than others. 20 miles from the capitol, a plaque stands on the side of the highway. it marks the spot where he was lynched, and his body left in a ditch just 100 yards from where his five-year-old daughter josephine waited for him to come home. when you're black in alabama, you can't help but walk in the shadows of these huge confederate monuments. do you see a connection between the message being said about white supremacy and what happened to your father? >> very much so. the articles that described my father's death say enraged white jealous of the success of
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a black man. you acquire more than they think you should, they have to put you back in your place. >> enraged? >> and ranged. >> josephine says she paid for her father's marker herself after the state refused to allow her to place it in public view. >> when you think about what you missed in life from not having him -- >> my mom went from prosperity to poverty almost overnight. sometimes i've wondered what their life could've been had he lived. what's my life could've been. >> his name was included among the thousands of lynching victims at the national memorial for peace and justice. the memorials director, brian
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stevenson, hopes the collected names will help change the narrative of a country still grappling with how to tell its own story. >> when i moved to montgomery, this was a study that had 59 markers and monuments of confederacy and you couldn't find the word slave and slave free anywhere? >> how is that possible? >> people had been intentional about the annoying that part of our history. so this memorial, this site, this is intended to be an intentional response to our silent. >> we talked to folks around the country about the confederacy stood for, the monuments, they say black people own slaves to, there were white slaves. >> there are many reasons beyond slavery. >> these are all things that are designed to do racialized what happened. and they are aberrations.
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we've allowed that to happen because we were fighting these other struggles, right? this site is designed to make people understand that you can't ignore this any longer. >> you see one county with one name and then one county with two names and then you see a county like this with over a dozen names. >> do you have any dodge county georgia? >> my great-grandfather in dodge county georgia, there was some issue with a white man, and at the end of the year, he sent his son, cornelia, into town they shot him put him on a horse and sent him back. and we have the death certificate says aged 12, 12 gunshots. >> people who engage in these terror luncheons could've buried the body in the ground, could've tried to hide the violence, that's what you would imagine people would do. they did the opposite, they
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were proud to engage in this kind of racial terror. that's why hanging was so common. the whole idea was to taunt and to terrorize and to torment african americans. that's why you have to think about this as terrorism. there are thousands who get killed, but there are millions who are victimized. seven black people lynched in screamer alabama in 1888 for drinking from a white man's well. dozens and louisiana because they were protesting their low wages. >> am i crazy for -- when i read these things i'm scared, i feel like that's could've been last week. >> it could've been. >> one, two, three, four, five,
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six, seven, eight, nine. it weighs on you. >> there are so many more, i know from my family story what happened, and he is not here. >> there are so many more. >> some say these monuments are about heritage, but if anything, they are also reminders of america's unsettled war with itself. i started this journey looking for light and understanding, to examine what these monuments mean to those who honor them. but it was never about the monuments, the large, looming stone facades. or the grotesque stumbling blocks. or what lives inside the man who is grappling with history had been shaped by the mid day holds true. it was about a reckoning and a time of american terror. i'm not sure where we go from here, but the road through history is long.
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