tv Deadline White House MSNBC October 28, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york on a day full of developments for democrats in washington, d.c. after the president went to capitol hill with the framework for much of his domestic agenda, a sweeping bill addressing social programs and the climate crisis. that's what's happening today on the left in american politics, in the democratic party. on the right, it is a very different story. the right, which has at this point abandoned all pretense of even pretending to try to govern this country. there are signs of an unflinching commitment to disinformation. on wednesday, the disgraced and
deplatformed expresident who still leads the republican party found yet another way to spread his election fraud conspiracies, this time in the form of a letter to the editor in the "wall street journal." we are not going the read it for you. it's chock full of lies that have been debunked over and over and over again by multiple media outlets, notably today, including the "wall street journal." but the "washington post" describes it like this. the nearly 600 word letter is replete with loosely sourced and largely debunked claims of fraud in pennsylvania a state that president biden won by 81,661 votes handing him the electoral college votes he need to secure his victory. this is published 358 days after the 2020 election. for nearly every one of those days donald trump and his republican allies have sewn the seeds of distrust in our
country's election. now a year later the big lie is making itself felt in the virginia governor's race. the "washington post" is reporting on a sharp spike of the number of republican poll watchers. the integrity push has largely driven the influx of election observers this this year's gubernatorial race according to local, state, and national republican officials. in some trainings, prospective poll watchers have be taught to see themselves as a bull work. while multiple registrars say they welcome the commitment to transparency some have made election officials uneasy because it is clear president trump's claims of mass voter fraud have driven a lot of the interest. of course the big lie isn't just playing out in our elections or in virn's elections. we have also seen how it leads to and incites deadly violence.
more than ten months after the deadly january 6th insurrection inspired by donald trump and his lies about the election a right wing disinformation campaign is still at it if trying to whitewash exactly what happened that day. it's set to get a major boost in the form of a documentary of sorts by one tucker carlson. the so-called documentary appears to support the baseless conspiracy theory that the january 6th attack was a false flag. we will play you a really, really, really short snippet only because we want you to see the kind of disinformation fox news is in the business of peddling. [ drumming ] >> the domestic war on terror is here, is coming after half of the country. >> false flags have happened in
this country. ♪ hallelujah ♪♪ >> one of which may have been january 6th. >> we at "deadline: white house" reached out to fox news to ask them if there is any evidence to support their claims, any of them, in in the snippet in the dock. we haven't heard from them yet. liz cheney quotes, it appears that fox news is giving tucker carlson a platform to sped the same type of lies that promoted violence on january th. as fox news knows the election wasn't stolen, right wing information is a threat to democracy is where we start this hour. rick stingel is here. also joining us,ia meesh alcindor. and nick confessore is here.
nick, i will start with you. the "wall street journal" printing something the editorial side of the paper has done a good job of debunking, donald trump's claim of election fraud. >> you often have contentions between the editorial side and the news side in terms of how far you can go. the journal had a choice between placating the president -- it is hard to placate a former president -- and telling the truth. they handed over the real estate to lie about their own editorial. i think any journalist knows that the truth is the most important thing. they failed this test here and allowed the president to go in their pages and print things they themselves know not to be true. >> rick stengel, you have edited a magazine. plagiarism is still a crime in journalism.
i don't see the difference. this isn't an opinion piece. this isn't donald trump's opinion about the democratic spending plan or the 1/6 committee's subpoena power. this suspect donald trump's opinion. these were lies that incited a deadly insurrection. these are lies that sit at sort the cornerstone of the ongoing threat of domestic extremism in this country. these are lies that animate the gravest threat to our homeland one that -- why did the "wall street journal" print it? >> well, it's really a pernicious lie. they tried to sneak it in the back door by doing it as an editor's letter. i'm so, i'm holding my phone up. the thing i would say and the thing i have been surprised about and i have seen some of it today, if there are people watching the show who are
subscribers to the "wall street journal" they can cancel their subscription. they can stop subscribing to anything owned by rupert murdoch. they can stopwatching the nfl on fox sports. there is a very traditional form of protest and boycott that's available to people by turning it off. or by not buying the products that advertise in the "wall street journal" or on fox sports. i mean, i have been surprised that there has been actually so little this kind of grassroots public protest because it is perfectly acceptable, and it's very effective. and when people violate your norms like that, that's a perfectly acceptable form of protest. >> you know what i thought, yamiche when i saw this, it is all b.s. i mean, there is nothing in it that is asserting an opinion. there is nothing in it that's
about a vision for a future campaign. it's lies. he drags bill barr. i mean, it's lice. it's hysteria. what i thought is it's a window into how terrified the "wall street journal" can the murdochs still are of donald trump and his base. >> well, it's a curious decision. i know people who work at the "wall street journal" who are street reporters who don't want to be judged by the editorial page. but let's think about what this was. it's not only just that it was form of president trump spewing the lies that he has been spewing ever since that november night that it was very clear to him that he lost the election. but it's that he also included these sort of fictional fake numbers going state by state making thing up that were clearly not true. it is sort of scary in these times when you think of all the different things that this country has been through. you think of january 6th and really american democracy almost coming to its knees, that we are now debating whether or not the lies that really fed into people
trying to kill the vice president, to try to kill the house speaker, that they are fit to print in a newspaper. that being said, i understand, obviously, there are editorial decisions that are made on the editorial page. what i can say is when i read that letter and there was no note to say, this is completely false, there is no note to say we cannot verify these numbers. it was presented as here is a former president sort of responding to an election. it was very, very confusing to me that that would be printed during these times when it is not about sort of a hypothetical argued between two sides. this is really a former president who -- who incited people to attack lawmakers, including people had his own party, including his own vice president. >> the "wall street journal" laundered a lot of president trump's policies in presidency. but it's totally different to side with this. this is something else that happened in the murdoch empire today. let me show you some of these anchors.
then we will talk about tucker carlson's new program. this is tucker and laura ingraham. >> potentially every single case there were fbi agents really in the capitol on january 6th. no reason person thinks what happened at january 6th was the worst attack on the capitol since the civil war. when are they going to admit there was no insurrection? never. >> again, i don't -- i don't know what's going through their heads. i don't totally understand the incentive structure for smearing law enforcement. i mean not all of those law enforcement members -- they are democratic members, members of the republican party. i don't know what the end game is to smear and call liars officers whose bodies were maimed and mutilated by donald trump supporters. but that's what they are. tucker carlson is going further, taking those claims and he and
laura i think a ram made and he's making a movie. it looks like borat but it is much darker and tenor. the first person shown who says that this theoretical war on terror is coming after half the country is a man named darren beady. he worked for trump until he was fired after it was revealed he had attended a white nationalist conference. the trailer also shows a man named ali alexander. he has been called a white nationalist even though he is not white. he is a right wing opportunist who latched onto the post election stop the steal mantra. he was central to the creation of a rally on the capitol grounds on january 6th. according the social media he was willing to give his life for the fight against imaginary voter fraud. these aren't even real freedom fighters, aren't even real people with courage in their
convictions. they are fake identify logs fighting a fake war based on fake fraud. what is going on? >> some of them are fake, some are grifters. some are both in a way. i haven't seen this documentary but based on the clips and those descriptions to have ali alexander who was a lead planner of the protest that then became the riot forn a document purporting that the whole thing was a false flag and set up by the fbi would be spectacular and crazy. look, there are dozens and dozens of people who are on trial right now for their crimes of participating in that riot. they are innocent until proven guilty, but they are on trial. it is not a false flag operation. carlson and others were called out over the summer for misinterpreting basically an fbi report to create this idea of a false flag operation. darren paidy has been a big promoter of it. but the point is that this is what their audience wants.
the tone is set from the top by president trump. the myth of the great fraud is his platform for 2024 if he runs again. and they promote it because the audience wants to hear and it loves it. >> i want to read you something adam kinzinger said about cross pressures this that documentary places. >> anyone working at fox news must speak out. thinks disgusting. it pears fox news isn't even pretending anymore. geraldo later went on to call the documentary bull s-h-i-t. this is the "new york times" reporting. tucker is provocative, original, but man, oh, man, geraldo said in a phone interview, there are
some things you say that are inflammatory and outrageous and uncrop corroborated. and i wonder how much of this is being done to provoke rather than illuminate. messing around with january 6th stuff, he said. to me, it was damn clear there was a riot incited and unleashed and started by donald trump. geraldo going out on a limb for the ecosystem in which he exists basically saying what liz cheney anded a aim kinzinger said about january 6th. that donald trump incited the riot, encouraged the riot, and unleashed the riot. >> in the brandenburg case in the supreme court in 1995 that was the decision that showed that the one kind of political speech that is not protected is speech that leads directly or indirectly to violence. that is what fox is playing around with here. they are laying with fire. they are supporting people who committed the earlier insurrection and motivating
people to do another one. that's the kind of speech that is beyond the pale. you mentioned foreigngraphy and other things that people would watch -- speech that leads directly to violence is not protected. that's the most dangerous form of speech in a republic. that's what they are doing now. i will go back to what i said before. you know, the one way that people can protest is to boycott all of the products and outlets owned by rupert murdoch, which fuel fox news. i mean, they all work hand-in-glove with each other. that's what i would say, it is dangerous, they are playing with fire in a dangerous way. >> who is on the board of fox news? i think what you are talking about is probably the right response, rick stengel, but i am not seeing anyone head down that path? >> i know people who canceled their subscriptions to the "wall street journal." there may be people watching now who could do that.
the people who won't watch the nfl on fox sports or won't use the products that are advertised. i mean, that's the kind of -- kind of in a democracy, that's one way that people can protest without going out into the streets and that is the tort of thing that will get rupert murdoch's attention, believe me, rather than more people complaining about mis- and disinformation. >> what if we live in a country where this is what people want. >> you are -- >> if we keep it real, this is where we are. >> well, i -- i choose to believe that people, that the better angels of our nature will eventually triumph that we are going through a period where the old era is ending but the new one hasn't yet been born, which is why there is so much tumult.
people feel uneasy, feel insecure. one of the things that i hope can happen is the current administration, for people who realize government actually does things that make us better off, and that we need to trust in this idea that it's, you know, government of the people, by the people, for the people. and that those better angels can triumph. but that other vision is a very dark one. >> i mean, yamiche, i believe that's where we are. i totally respect optimists. they have an open invitation to appear on this show and project an optimistic view. i think it is also reflected in the fact that every newscast has led their stories thinking that the most important thank that happened today was a disagreement about the size of social spending on in one party. republicans aren't even in the conversation. they are not at the table.
they are using the filibuster to prevent democrats from governing at all. the only way anything gets done, the only way covid relief gets passed, how we got needles in our arms, the only way shots got distributed, the only way aid was coming to americans, the only way any programs were on the table for democrats who yes disagree about how far to go is because one of the two parties in this country is interested in governing. the other one is distributing amongst themselves this bat bleep crazy letter to the editor from donald trump and fox news . my question for you, is there an acceptance of the asymmetry of politics right now? >> i think it is pretty clear there is an asim mettic trickcal political environment we are living in. on one side we have a democratic base demanding real legislation and real consequences and real
action from the democrats who are in control of the house, the senate, and the presidency. and you have democrats who are saying, yes, we want big social spending policies. we also want voting rights legislation and policing reform. they are giving their base what they want. even as they argue about the size of the package, you see the democratic base is really excited about getting something. on the republican side not just this year, i would say for the last few years, last few decades, what you have been seeing is not a focus on policy al though sometimes they talk about taxes. really, former president trump -- he didn't win because people liked his health care plan or he was going to cut taxes. he won because he was going to build a wall and he was going to stop immigrants. he may run again not on policies by saying these democrats, the people who are against you, the silent majority he continues to talk about, somehow there is some sort of fahd lent claim and
people working against him and that's why he is not president right now. republicans are trying to run on fear. critics of the president are saying they are running on critical race theory, gender rights, there is a problem in america if there is space for people who are transgender and people that are straight to all exist together. you look no further than the virginia governor's race to realize while mcall live is begging democrats to give him an infrastructure bill you have republicans talking about nothing that's going on in d.c. it is about school, about race, about education. that's the way they are going to get their base to be excited. they have been doing that quite a long time? the rub is it's not actually about schools or race because critical race theory isn't thought in a single elementary in virginia. >> not one. >> that's -- right. it is not even that they play to cultural issues that are
actually being debated. they are fake. and, nick, as someone who has sort of been on this facebook and russia disinformation bleeding into american disinformation beat i wonder if there is any space for russian disinformation. we seem to have gotten it all under control on our own with republicans. >> to your point, even from 2016, the russian disinformation we talk about was really just a reflection of domestic content. a lot of those russian accounts were just broadcasting found footage and videos and memes that they were ripping off from american meme factories and in some cases broadcast videos of police brutality to kill the black voters and turn them down in terms of number of votes. disinformation i think is often the focused hatred of our own people reflected against ourselves.
>> nick, rick, thank you for bringing your optimism, i'm sorry i was nasty to it. thank you both for starting us off. yamiche is sticking around. when we come back, the ongoing dangers of lit letting the big lie live. pennsylvania's attorney general on fighting back, preserving free and fair elections and the truth. plus, president biden and speaker pelosi both saying there is a path forward for the president's revised economic agenda. where the pact lands is enknown. later in the program, the latest culture war battles. how did republicans bm the party of pushing back against efforts to stop violence at school board meetings. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anyerwhe. oh! are you using liberty mutual's coverage customizer tool? so you only pay for what you need. sorry? limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
evil dies tonight. you want your mask? come and get it! the expresident's election lies are leading to a real world increase in violent rhetoric on the right. this week at a hearing, philadelphia elections commissioner detailed the violent threats that he and his family are received by people deranged by the big lie. watch. >> i am a republican. and i believe that counting votes in our democracy is a sacred responsibility. for doing my job, counting votes, i would like to quickly share with you some of the messages sent to me and my family. tell the truth or you are three kids will be fatally shot. it included our address, included my children's names, included a pick of our home.
this is domestic terrorism. the whole point is to terrorize, intimidate and coerce and prevent our democracy from functioning as it should. they like many others were lied to, deceived and deranged by those lies for what? to discredit an election that wasn't even close. >> an election that wasn't even close. "wall street journal" heads down that path today, too. on that, pennsylvania's attorney general and candidate for governor, josh shapiro joins us. mr. attorney general, i saw your tweet on this topic. i pulled it out. you wrote, the former president has relentlessly attacked our elections in pennsylvania yet we have won in court every time. he and his cronies brought this baseless point in up many times. we have won in court, case closed. well, the case is not closed. in a poll 60% of republicans and
republican leaning independents believe the results of the 2020 election should be overthrown. your thoughts? >> i think we have got a lot of work to do to protect our democracy. some of that is going to happen by beating these folks who continue to perpetuate the big lie. some of it is going to be happening bypassing laws that actually protect our election. and some of it is standing up and acknowledging the kind of people like you just had on there, al schmidt, a republican from pennsylvania, a real public servant acknowledging what he is facing and media and others taking responsibility for their own actions. when the "wall street journal" publishes a letter like they published from the former president yesterday the fire gets reignited over and over and over again. i think we have to speak truth. we have to act responsibly. and we have to win at the ballot box to defeat the big lie and
pass legislation that does so as well. it is not going to be one action. it is going to be all of us doing our part in a number of different forms to beat this back and protect our democracy. >> i think it is worse than being reignited. what reignites it is fox news and bright bat and wacky steve bannon. what the wall street does is launders it and whitewashes it. i have heard anecdotally that the journalism side of the paper is not happy. they have done a good job debunking a lot of the lies donald trump repeats in the paper. they responded since we have been on the air. let me read some of this. they seem to be sort of hiding behind this, the facts in trump's fraud letter, his 2020 monomania is news and reflects on his fitness for 2004. having done spin in a past life, the spin seems to be that the journal printed the letter to
try to disqualify him as unfit for 2024. that doesn't really pass the smell test, does it. no, not even a little bit. i think i would like to retract part of what i said at the beginning and adopt your wlang. i think launder is exactly the right word. that's a pretty lame attempt by the "wall street journal" to cover their own tracks. look, the president wrote a better that was just a mashed up compilation of his debunked claims, things that have been debunked in the court of public opinion and things that have been debunked many times here this the court in pennsylvania and sprinkle in a few more wild unsourced conspiracy theories. a publication like the "wall street journal" should never publish something like that, both because of the impact it has on good public serve apartments, and the negative impact it has on our democracy, but also because they should know better. they should absolutely know better. and what the president did --
pardon me, what the former president did here has absolutely no place in our public discourse, let alone in the "wall street journal." >> what is it that democrats need to do to recalibrate for governing in this era of complete disinformation saturation? i mean republicans aren't even at the table to try to solve the governing policies, these sort of social programs are ones that in decades past republicans would not have wanted to invested the kinds of numbers that democrats do, but they might have been at the table certainly for different pieces of it. but they are awol. they are sending around the letter to the editor trump letter. i wonder since you are at one of the ground zeros of the election fraud faux fight, what advice do
you have for democrats? >> perpetuating the big lie, promoting it, peddling it, it has twin costs. number one, it really erodes our democracy. and number two, it takes these people out of meeting this moment of great challenge for our country, challenges that have been laid bare by the covid pandemic and other challenges that we face. i truly believe, whether it is washington democrats or democrats in the states need to do a few things. number one, speak truth. number two, beat these folks. beat them at the ballot box. because the reality is they are peddling the big lie because they get some short-term political gain out of it. and understand, they are doing this out of a position of weakness, right? they are not patriots. they are not pro-democracy. they are pro-themselves. so when you beat them and you demonstrate that they don't get rewarded for peddling the big
lie, then ultimately you maybe have a chance to break the fever and get back to some kind of governing in this country where you have honest disagreements between the two parties, you battle it out, and you ultimately get better plans for health care, taxes, you know, foreign policy, whatever the case may be. but until we beat them and show them that the big lie doesn't ultimately lead to something positive for them personally, we are not going to be able to break this fever. >> speaking of the fever, it's spread to virginia. the disinformation on the right on the republican candidate there, mr. youngkin is running against critical race theory which isn't taught in virginia but it is doing well for him. i wonder if you are watching these gubernatorial contests next week and gleaning any lessons of how the republicans might run against you? >> well, i have got somewhere between 12 and 15 republicans running against me here in pennsylvania. they are all cut from the same
cloth. they are peddling the big lie. they are all competing for trump's blessings. i don't need to look to washington, d.c. or virginia or any other state to know that there are stark contrasts here in pennsylvania between those who peddle the big lie on the other side and the work i have done to defend our democracy and the work i am going to do to grow our economy and make sure that every child gets a quality education, to deal with the systemic inequities that exist in our criminal justice system and in our marketplace. these are the kinds of things that i am going to work on. there are clear contrasts here in pennsylvania. and there are many lessons to be drawn right here in the commonwealth. >> pennsylvania attorney general shapiro keeping it local. thank you for answering questions and spending time with us today. nice to see you. >> thanks. president biden right now is in the air, literally in the air, flying, to rome, for the start of his second foreign trip as president. before he left he made one last
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the economy, invest in our nation, and our people. we spent hours and hours and hours over months and months working on this. no one got everything they wanted, including me. but that's what compromise is. and that's consensus. that's what i ran on. every single element of this framework would fundamentally -- be viewed as a fundamental change in america. taken together, they are truly consequential. >> that's president biden today before leaving for his foreign trip with a healthy and appropriate level of optimism that the new framework for his economic deal reached this morning will finally get support of all of his fellow democrats in congress and ultimately pass and make its way to his desk. the latest version of the bill totaling $1.75 trillion, includes some truly historic provisions, universal pre-k and the largest investment in clean energy, just to name a couple. it also leaves out some of the
key priorities you heard a whole lot about from the liberal wing and other members of his own party that includes paid family leave and community college. the question now is whether the two holdouts to this entire package all along, senators joe manchin and kyrsten sinema are on board with this proposal. some house democrats including jayapal are unsure whether they will. >> he said he's confident he can get the votes. it wasn't -- i think it wasn't clear whether the two senators have committed to vote for it. so, you know, look, i think it's a bit of a leap of faith in the president. >> leap of faith with the president. that's where we start with our friends david plouffe and yamiche alcindor. >> i do -- it seems as though
the white house doesn't have an answer whether they are going to vote for it. the president made it clear he is confident. and white house officials have also said put pell times they are confident it will get 50 votes in the senate and pass the house. that's the message i have been hearing since 6:30 this morning. that being said, the critical question is when is that going to happen? why would the president come out with the framework without signaling that senator manchin and sinema who have been holding this up and making sure the negotiation works weren't culted. but the president is saying he came up with this framework after hours of negotiations, after weeks and weeks and weeks of talking to both sides, progressives and moderates, and he feels confident this is the way forward. in some ways this is really the president putting all of his sort of political will behind this. it's interesting that house speaker nancy pelosi her message to house democrats was not to embarrass the president and to try to get a vote by the time
the president lands in europe so that he can also have sort of something to show when he is touring going to all the climate conferences as well as the g20 meetings. so this is really the president saying i am going to take charge here, coming up with this tramwork, and democrats, you need to get behind me. >> i think, to add to what yamiche is reporting, i think that has been their posture all along. what's new it was very much a public posture this morning and ahead of this trip. i love the way you framed it. after all the ugly sausage making what came out the other side is a bfd for this country, the middle class, and those fighting to enter it. and paid for by the right people. we may not like it but it is the max that can be done with razor majorities and their composition. what is the prospect of more sort of message discipline taking over on the democratic
side in the sort of selling of the package than has existed during the haggling and sausage making phase. >> nicole, it's absolutely essential. you put up a graphic. there are a bunch of thing that aren't in the bill. but we have to live in the world of reality. it is harder than it has ever been. but this is the most that joe biden and nancy pelosi and chuck schumer could get. what you have to do is go out and sell all the things on the left side of your graph. it is going to take time and skill and money. this is always the challenge as you know with a big package. it is hard enough to sell one thing. when you have got a bunch of things in there that are popular that you want to make sure people connect back to our votes and the leadership of democrats. i think everybody has had their say. there has been a lot of fighting, spirited negotiations. but now that we are done, essentially, democrats have to say -- if somebody wants to say i am going the keep up the fight
for paid family leave, of course they should. but we have to go out there and sell this. of course by the way, there is another side of the equation, universal republican opposition to all of these thing. democrats have spent the last two years basically trying to improve your life. what have republicans done for the most part? they basically spent all their time promoting trump's big lie. yeah. that's the challenge now is the pivot. this goes all the way through the campaign. democrats running for re-election need to be running ads on all of the things in this package. >> yamiche, i want to take david plouffe's note and read about what is in the bill. senior administration officials say the measure will total $1.75 trillion in funding which they describe as quote the most transformative investment in children's care giving in generations the largest effort to combat climate change in history, an historic tax cut for tens of millions of middle class families and the biggest expansion of affordable health
care in decades. the white house says the measure will be paid for fully threw new taxes and reduce the deficit through an array of changes to the tax system. officials stress no one making less than 400,000 will have their taxes raised. white house preparing for a meticulous and focused marketing and selling of this. talk about some of what has been lost by the idea that there were divisions among the democratic party. still a transformational piece of legislation. >> this is absolutely a historic bill. when you look at the priorities, the democrats have said that they really have, for generations, this bill gets at a lot of that. looking a of the the list of things -- i am looking at my phone. there is so much in the bill. there is $550 billion when you add up universal pre-k. when you add up elder care and child care. $555 billion for climate change. that's a huge, huge investment in climbed change, especially as the reports continue to show
that the human actions on this planet are impacting the weather on this planet and impacting the survival of humans on this planet. the other thing they note is the idea there is going to be hundreds of billions of dollars in here for health care. it is expanding the affordable care act. that of course was a signature thing, a signature legislation that was passed by former president obama. but this really takes that health care law and takes it one step further. really, this is democrats saying we want to make sure that whatever time we have in office and in control we want to be able to have people say that our lives were changed, personally, by the legislation passed by democrats. >> david plouffe, you not a long time ago had the job of taking something like this and making sure it was understood for what yamiche just articulated. it is my spence when there is not agreement on legislation a lot of the public doesn't pay attention to the debate but this is when they start listening what's your strategy for getting
this out there and to the just selling it but informing the american people? >> nicole, i think it is achievable. right now the democrats are in a massive hole because i think most people out there who will decide the '22 elections, who are swing voters or maybe are not sure they are going to vote. they don't know what is happening. they may have heard trillions of dollars. you started in deficit. you have got to go out there. unlike the affordable care act which took time for anybody to feel benefits a lot of this is going to be positive right away. what you have to do is report back to everybody who volunteered in the last election, who voted for you and who gave you $25 and say your vote was worth it. let's give you perspective. a year ago we were a week before the 2020 election. if you had told anybody that you would have universal pre-k, these kinds of investments in child care and elder care, these kind of investments in climate -- i mean, people just wanted trump gone. but the selling of this, a big package like this, is incredibly
complicated. i think every democratic member of congress, senate and house has to be doing every week, nicole, events talking about the elements of this, and doing them over and over and over again so that people begin to get a sense this wasn't just a big pile of money. they are benefiting from it. >> david plouffe, with political e.f. hutton. when he talks, people listen. thank you for spending time with us today. when we come back, we will ask a member of the democratic caucus when the vote might happen and if he believes what president biden said. house and senate majorities depend on this. don't go anywhere. n this don't go anywhere.
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for those who said i want to see text, the text is there for you to review, for you to complain about, for you to add to. >> do you trust that senators manchin and sinema will vote based off of what is outlined in this framework? >> i trust the president of the united states. and again, the text is out there. if they have some -- anybody, any senator, any house member have some suggestions about where their comfort level is for their dismay might be, then we welcome that. >> house speaker nancy pelosi this afternoon on the new infrastructure deal now officially laid out, welcoming complaints and any changes amid a little bit of uncertainty weather the provision with key priorities left out is enough for manchin and sinema. joining outside coverage, congressman gerry connolly, one
of our favorite straight shooters. tell me where this stands, and when we might see a vote. >> right now, where it stands is, it's being bandied about, sort of, in the rules committee, which here in the house, you know, is the governing entity in terms of bringing a bill to the floor. so we have to have a rule to bring this to floor. they haven't really, that i know of, actually started getting into the weeds about the nature of this rule. but they have sort of started general debate. so my guess is we are -- if we are going to do this, we are going to be here very late tonight. >> is the end of the day today, even if it goes into tonight, is that a realistic deadline? do you expect that to happen? >> if everybody is on board, yes, that's a realistic time frame. if on the other hand we are still ka very muching over various provisions in the bill,
then obviously that time line won't work. >> tell me how you feel about what's in the bill as we speak. >> you know, i think your earlier reporting is actually quite ininsightful. if we put aside what we are disappointed didn't get in or not as much and just look at the merits of what is in this bill it is transformative for universal -- you know, education for our children. for trying to make provisions for child care, which will have enormous benefits economically in the labor market, especially, frankly, for women, being able to work outside the home. and, you know, we look at new and renewable energy resources. we look at the environment. we look at helping communities deal with resilience in the face of climate change. so many other aspects of this bill that i think are transformative and are key investments, investments that
will have return on them for a generation or more to come. >> i think what we have tried to do is look at this -- not both sides of the democratic policy debate but both sides of the ideological spectrum. if republicans are anything other than awol on trying to solve any of these problems or crises for not just democrats men, women, and families, but americans, then i have missed it. but tell me -- i hear this a lot anecdotally, mostly off the air. but tell me, is there frustration with how the approximately see debate has been covered by people like me. >> yeah, i think -- not you so much, nicole, but i think some of your colleagues have breathlessly described the process as if it is unique to us, to this congress, and this bill. of course, it isn't. you and i talked last time about missing deadlines. do we think deadlines weren't missed on the civil rights act
of '64. the voting rights act of '65. medicare, social security act in the '30s or the affordable care act. we set them to try to force action. as long as we get close to the deadline, that's a good thing. i think we need to step back and look at the context and the scope of what this legislation will do. and i think your earlier reporting in the earlier segment really did a fine job in actually making that point. >> i know just from my own time in government that when something is being debated it is like a noise machine to the public. >> right. >> when you get to the point when you are communicating about the bill, keep us posted. if anything happens in the next hour, waver arm asks we will have you back on. we appreciate your candor. governor connolly. the next hour of "deadline:
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it is someone who follows you from your car every single time you go to a board meeting or another elected official meeting in the county. it is someone who just constantly says i am coming for you every single time that they see you, someone who cause of in your face whenner next door to your daughter's bedroom. somebody who has the nerve to brandish weapons, again, feet within your home. that is a threat. that is harassment. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that was jennifer jenkins on
this show two weeks ago describing the horror she lives with and as experienced as parents have taken debates over things like mask mandates and critical race theory to frightening new levels. we show you her story again today to put into context what these school board members are dealing with as republicans push back against the attorney general's recent attempt to stop violence directed at school board members at school board meetings. yesterday many members of the gop attacked a.g. garland toer a memo he put out that says local law enforcement should work with the fbi to combat heightened levels of violence leveled at school board members. listen to ted cruz stereo they involve things like insults a nazi salute. that's one of the examples. my god, a parent did a nazi salute at a school board because they thought the policies were
oppressive. >> i am sorry about that. but you had to see it. what you heard was a republican senator defending someone's opportunity to give a nassy salute. "washington post" describes the exchange like this. the senator was referring to an august incident in which police removed a man from a birmingham michigan school board meet being a student mask mandate after officials say he flashed the nazi salute and chanted "highly hitler". gorld replied that a nazi salute was protected by the first amendment. hours later, cruz was defending the right of citizens to denounce authoritarian policies. cruz's comments encaps laid exactly what the gop has become a party that panders to the most extreme elements, even parent apparently antisemmetics as school board members face
terrifying and real threats to their live n. gop in washington defended. fights over what books can be read in schools are featured prom innocently on their campaigns. a toni moyersson novel has become d. matt courthouse in his role as the chair of the house committee on general investigating launched an investigation into the type of books they have particularly if they pertain to race or sexual it. the list includes 850 book titles and asked the districts if they have these books, and how much they spent on the books. the gop, now defenders of nazi is a lutes and book banning is where we start this hour with some of our most favorite reporters and fans. matt miller is here. also, maya wiley, and clint
watts is here former consultant to the fbi counter-terrorism division. lucky for us, all three are msnbc contributors. matt miller, i start with you. i saw some of your sort of tweets about garland's testimony yesterday. why doesn't garland say damn right i am going to protect these people, public servants who are being assaulted by disinformation by people like you senator cruz? >> i think he is still getting used to the public part this job. i think he has been good in terms of running the department and getting back to its historic non-political stature. the part i don't think he has figured out yet is how to run the non-political part of the job where you have to be a spokesman and come up to the hill and do battle with people who think the justice department is not doing what it should be doing. the memo he sent out is
innocuous. all he did was tell the fbi to start working with local law enforcement officials to investigate and try to prevent violence and threats of violence against school board officials. that ought to be something everyone can agree on. the response from republican officials, not just ted cruz has been an plek particular. they have been berating him in committee hearings. they have been berating him, they are trying to intimidate the attorney general and the justice department to back down and stop investigating these threats of violence. you know, i think it's because there is n.o.w. in entrenched culture of right wing violence in the country. it is the base of the republican party. so you have republican politicians in washington responding to their base and defending their base. it's a little bit like, you know, all the people that would say i am not pro-trump, but i am opposed to all of these liberals that are opposed to him. i think ted cruz and the rest would say we are not pro-violence. of course we are not
pro-violence we are just opposed to the justice department investigating violence. of course that's the same thing. it is despicable. >> we should stop asking whether or not they have arrived at this destination. they have. they are pro-violence. maya, all the department did -- frankly, i think it is fair to ask whether they did enough. all they did was to ask the fbi to be in touch with law enforcement. i think some of this is based on reporting that i have seen that the extremist groups, in an organized manner are dispatching people to school board meetings. people who don't even have kids. they are a target for the bullying and intimidation that's going on at a regional and some instances national level. why, other than being pro-intimidation, pro-violence, why would you oppose the unless you were for that? >> right, because you have it's
important for to you hold onto political power than you to empower democracy in this country because that's what we're talking about. there's first amendment rights but not a right to harass people out of participating in a way that is about civility and the debate of ideas and facts to determine what is best for our community, for our children, that is what democracy is supposed to be, but this is just, frankly, a, a jetsoning of principle of fidelity to democracy for political gain and power and we saw that in virginia as well and we're seeing race-baiting, we're seeing division and we're seeing, frankly, an attack on our institutions of democracy doing their job, because that's all the department of justice and the fbi are doing right now is their job, to ascertain whether or not there's been a crime or crimes committed.
>> if you're a would-be violent criminal out there and i want to bring clinton on this, too, and you see some of the most prominent republicans wailing on attorney general garland for having the audacity to say we're going to keep an eye on try to bolster the protection of school board members, what do you do, clint? >> it's pretty frightening, because it's basically peeling back the layer of law enforcement that helps protect people. by the wage volunteering in these positions. yesterday we were on here talking about election officials, today school board members, not where most resources are dedicated in terms of physical security. usually we're worried about law enforcement presence and i think for those that are inclined to violence, if they do hear those kinds of statements against the attorney general if they are listening to those elected leaders just like we talked about yesterday they feel like they're given a free pass that maybe what they're do something not just like okay, but
condoned. so this is where the real danger i think in this country is, we're peeling back or trying to impede the protection of those people that we value the most, the ones that make our local governments work, our schools work and at the same time it's also just so bizarre to see them worry about free speech on social media, and at the same time worry, trying to ban books or impede a woman's right to choose. these things are in opposition to each other, those are supporting and another point trying to restrict them and the whole time trying to prevent people from being safe. it's an impossible position for law enforcement, very difficult for the fbi to work with local law enforcement where these elected leaders are from and build that trusted relationship to protect everybody evenly. >> i want to read you something matt miller that's in "the washington post" today conservatives embrace safe spaces and trigger warnings, by paul waldman.
conservatives love to mock liberals as soft wimpy. something unexpected is happening to republicans, they are getting in touch with their own emotional vulnerability, and making policy demands based on ensuring that people's feelings don't get hurt. that's one of its messages underlying the culture war conflict that has taken over the virginia governor's race as republican candidate glenn youngkin centered his pitch on the supposed dangers of critical race theory which he promises to ban on day one of his governorship and the need for conservative parents to protect their children from dangerous ideas. we should point out critical race theory is not taught to virginia children, matt, but nonetheless, that has become central closing argument for the youngkin campaign and it's not clear that it's not working. >> well, i think to some extent a lot of this is about who has the ability, who has the right to nurse a grievance and demand the government address it.
is it people discriminated against, people who don't have equal rights in this country? should they feel the government should address that legitimate grievance or is it people that are nursing other type of grievances, political grievances? i think if you look at the modern republican party, it has been said before it's not an idealist party anymore, it's field by white grievance. that was the beating white hot center of trumpism, that is what all of this critical race theory nonsense is about and it's funny, look at the bill that's going to pass congress in the next few days or weeks, a massive social spending bill that's going to remake the social safety net and almost no widespread grassroots opposition to it in the republican party because that's not what the republican party cares about anymore. every republican in congress is going to vote against it but not motivating the grassroots, no energy, not the leading segment on right wing media, hasn't been for weeks because the republican party is now just an engine for white grievance, that is what
donald trump taught the party to run on, and you know see all of the other kind of not wannabe trumps but people who want to mobilize his coalition picking up on the same thing and the enduring question, is that enough the way to turn the base out the way trump trump could turn the base out just by being on the ballot. >> what if it is? >> democrats need to win the fights, called culture war fights which i don't think is an accurate representation but we need to win them and we need to govern well when we're in office. if their theory of the case is that they can motivate people by turning them out on grievance, we need to turn people out by governing well. democrats aren't in government, not in politics for grievance. we're in government and politics to do things for people's lives and so the answer to that is we have to govern well and that's biden and the democrats in congress now. >> maya, i want to read you more about this virginia governor's race from the "new york times."
a new online ad released by glenn youngkin features a mother pushed to have toni morrison's "beloved" banned from her son's curriculum eight years ago. it was thrown to book banning and coded insult to one much america's most celebrated black authors after months of fran rick republican alrmz in virginia and nationwide about how schoolchildren are being educated about racism. i watched "field of dreams" during the pandemic, my third grader, and there's a scene in the beginning and it's about banning books and he said what is that about? what are they doing? with the internet, why would you ban anything? i thought it was an insightful thing for a third grader to ask but the whole debate is so phony, it is so bogusbogus, it about white grievance. how do you engage in a substantive level that is rooted in disinformation and two, rooted in racism?
>> for one i have great hope for this country because of your son. i agree with matt on governance but let's take a look at what's happening right now, we're seeing a debate within the democratic party about what wins suburban votes. how about black votes, women's latino votes and ways we do that like paid family leave. there are things that all our families need as you said in
your previous, governance isn't just the sense of running the machinery of government, it's about recognizing that democracy requires us to be uncomfortable, and one of the uncomfortable truths of this country is it is built on racism. it is built on genocide against native peoples, it is built on frankly a long history of denigrating women of all races, and all those things are not about trying to tell people to feel badly about themselves. it's about calling our attention to what's been broken, what remains broken, and what, frankly, we have to fix for all of us, and in virginia, what we're seeing is a republican party that has decided it's going to try to drive more fear in the hearts of white suburbanites in particular that having any kind of knowledge or information about slavery, about the civil rights movement, maybe about the trail of tears for all
i know, what else is off limits? japanese internment, is that off limits? are we allowed to read, i don't know, i found it very triggering to have to read "gone with the wind" when i was in school. is that banned, because i find it triggering, that there was such racism in the way literature was written, but you know what helps democracy, having a conversation about how that book was used after brown versus board of education, that's called critical thinking skills, and it's what makes people citizens. doesn't tell you what to think, but it tells you how to interrogate the facts and information and we have to tell the republican party come up with ideas about how you solve problems rather than driving fear to divide us as a country, because the civil rights movement not only was a movement, it had to happen even after the civil war was won and frankly, stopped fighting the civil war. >> listening to maya, i'm
thinking of general milley's defense of studying critical race theory himself. he said do i want to understand white rage? why doesn't everyone want to understand white rage? white rage drove an insurrection whose mission statement was to hang mike pence, and i want to read one more piece of reporting today that suggests that republicans know it's all b.s. the republicans know what they're doing by emboldening the most extreme craziest elements of their own party, this is in politico playbook this morning. republican representatives anne wagner and michael mccaul were at an event at sonoma restaurant in wine bar thursday standing at the bar, a person asked about redistricting in missouri and said he hoped wagner get a more conservative district to help her win re-election. wagner, a center-right republican responded skeptically, then you get those wacko birds. a republican said "that's why we
had to vote the way we did today." you know what happened that day? that day, house democrats and nine republicans voted to hold steve bannon in criminal contempt of congress for ignoring a january 6th committee subpoena. wagner and mccaul voted against the contempt effort but confessed, clint watts, at the sonoma restaurant wine bar on capitol hill last thursday while standing at the bar that they only did so because they're afraid of being primaried by let me get those right those wacko bird. you have the republicans confessing of being corrupt in the more conservative districts and weakening the body in which they serve. how do you salvage anything out of a party that's reached that point? >> nicole, they cannot. they have essentially tied themselves to a tyranny of the minority and that minority is extreme, it is violent and white nationalist in origin.
it's remarkable to me that the greatest domestic really terrorist threat we face today in this country comes from that far right element, the white supremacist forums. ted cruz mentions the nazi salute. he should obviously know that there is major anti semitism going on in this country right now. we know that attacks on people based on race, based on misogyny, based on religious element is gone through the roof in the past four to five years and that is due in large part to the republican party courting these extreme elements. the other part of that that i think is clear the party is not offering an agenda but the nonextreme people, they're not designing any policies for the country, that brings anybody else under the tent and they're playing to an extreme minority that has no vision for the country other than fascism or getting rid of the state all together, the death of the administrative state, that's
what you'll hear them say. i don't know why they would continue to pursue this path and want to represent a democracy when they put the whole idea of democracy at great risk and great danger. >> matt miller, maya, clint watts, to be continued. thank you so much for starting us off this hour with the day's developments. when we come back, why passing president biden's big bold domestic agenda is so critical for democrats politically, next week's elections in virginia and new jersey and in the upcoming midterms. dnc chairman jaime harrison is our guest after a quick break. opening statements in the trial in charlottesville, residents are trying to hold white supremacists available for the violence that killed a woman and shocked the nation. merrick garland inches toward a decision on whether to prosecute steve bannon for contempt of congress, as we learn more about the january 6 committee's investigation including a key subpoena coming up, it's a big one.
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despite mostly positive demeanor of the speech, there are big questions whether the holdouts on the bill will agree to this compromise and the president knows the stakes of the plan. he told house democrats in a closed door meeting "we are at an inflection point. the rest of the world wonders whether we can function. i don't think it's hyperbol tow say the house and senate majorities and my presidency will be determined by what happens in the next week." jaime harrison, chair of the democratic national committee, how eager are you to consider the other side and have the sausage making, whatever it yields in the year view mirror? >> nicole, there's a reason why i don't have any hair. i am so ready for us to get these bills on to the floor, to
pass them and then give them to the president so he can give out everything else. the american people are ready for some of the big things in this legislation and it will improve the lives of a lot of working families, and so i'm excited about it, and we will get it done, and it will demonstrate democrats do deliver, and that we know how to govern and we know and will always fight to deliver for the american people. >> the polls i'll put up an unfair snapshot like emotion picture of the snap on your iphone but they're not great and i wonder if you have a plan ready to roll out once you have legislation to sell and market the bill in every sort of competitive doctorate stake. >> we will be going, a lot of people are like why aren't there tv ads up now and this and that.
it's because this bill is fluid. i didn't want to hut up tv ads and say you'll have a, b, c and d and changes because the bill was going through the negotiation process. when we get this done, we will hit "go" and there won't be a single person in this country who won't know that joe biden and the democrats delivered universal pre-k for 3 and 4-year-olds. limit the cost of child care for working families, assisting our seniors, fought back against climate change. so much packed into the legislation and framework that will dramatically improve the lives and communities of the american people and i can't wait to sell it to the american people and let them know about the great benefits. >> we both know close races are never decided by a positive message. it's the contrast. i wonder what the contrast message is to this republican
party. >> the contrast is clear. you have democrats who are delivering and working hard and yeah, we're fighting but we're fighting about how we're delivering for the american people. on the other side you have republicans who are just sitting on the sidelines watching and trying to gum up the works. i remember that image that nicole, when donald trump passed that huge tax bill for jeff bezos and all of his ilk and the celebration they had, the toasting and this and that. why the hell haven't they spent this energy trying to fight for working people in this country? from the needs on infrastructure they said they'd do infrastructure and didn't get it done. they said they'd help working people and they have not got it done and actually, they're trying to gum up the works. so the contrast is clear. democrats are delivering and working for the american people while the republicans are sitting on the sidelines of
obstruction. >> if they were sitting on the sidelines, democracy might survive. they're doing more than that, and i want to ask you about the insidious nature of the big lie, infecting even what's expected to happen next tuesday in virginia. "the gop election integrity push has driven the observers in this race according to local state and national republican officials in trainings poll watchers have been taught to see themselves as bulwark against election fraud." some welcome the commitment to transparency some tactics made officials uneasy. claims of fraud va driven interest, general register said it created a sense among staff members the observers don't trust them. of course they don't, they've been fed a big lie that 60% of republicans and republican leaning independents believe the
election results should be overturned. how do you go out and ensure free, fair and safe elections that will end on election day after all the votes are voted in this climate? >> nicole, one of the things you see with all of this is that glenn youngkin is a trump acolyte pushing the big lie. they've been building up their army but we've for months trained voter protection directors and lawyers to be in our precincts and polls all over the commonwealth of virginia but all over the nation. we aren't sitting on the sidelines reacting to the situation. we're being proactive making sure at the end of the day that all americans regardless democrats or republicans but all americans get an opportunity to exercise their right unencumbered. we believe that fundamentally and something we'll make sure that we protect the right of
voters who ask who should represent them and their families and communities. so i feel very confident with the voter protection efforts we made, we've put almost $6 million into virginia to support not only voter protection but organizing efforts in that state, historic number at the dnc and so feel very confident that in the end of the day if you're in virginia, you want to go vote, you can cast your ballot and do so safely. >> jaime do you have any scene area yo in mcauliffe wins and youngkin pulls a donald trump? >> he doesn't have to concede but in the end of the day terry mcauliffe will take the oath of office and become the next governor of virginia. this is the thing. we can't give these folks oxygen with all this foolishness. this is america you get in an election, you win or lose, and then you move forward from that.
listen, i was in a race against lindsey graham. there were a lot of questions people may have about that and this and that but at the end of the day i didn't get enough votes so therefore i didn't win and lindsey graham did so i moved on. the republicans need to put on their big boy and big girl pants action pull them up, this is how you do elections. this is what democracy is all about, but it's sad to see that they are in such a bad state right now, because it does threaten our democracy, but we can't let it. we have to fight back with everything we have and that's what the dnc is doing every day. >> thank you for spending some time with us ahead of the two races next week. we'll continue to check in with you. >> thank you, nicole. when we come back opening statements in the lawsuit against two dozen organizers of the deadly riot in charlottesville. an update is next. we're making the fagioli!
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today racism, hate and white nationalism are on trial in charlottesville, virginia. attorneys for the plaintiffs who are seeking accountability and bankruptcy for 20 white supremecies and affiliated groups delivered powerful opening statements and visuals this morning, all to remind yoor jurors their violent 2017 united right protest and attacks that killed one woman and injured 35 others. the defense argument is simple,
freedom of speech. the attorneys for the plaintiffs say will face "enormous amounts of evidence that proves racially motivated conspiracy and intimidation behind it all." the month's long premeditation and celebration of success after a case therefore with major implications in the fight against right wing extremism including capitol insurrection that followed. joining our conversation tyler hamill, covering the trial and msnbc legal analyst joyce advance, former u.s. attorney and now law professor at the university of alabama. tyler, take me inside what happened today. >> today the more formal part, opening statements for the plaintiffs powerful imagery and description of the violence and the ordeal that the plaintiffs went through over the course of that weekend which was quite significant. >> tyler, you tweeted this, cantwell is up and took less for
a minute to bring up mein kampf. who is cantwell and what his legal strategy. >> also known as the crying nazi, he rose to infamy in the wake of the rally, well-known white supremacist and as far as his legal strategy is concerned your guess is as good as mine. >> some reporting in "the daily beast" he gets legal advice watching fox news tucker carlson specifically. joyce, i want to show you sound ken declinian did with roberta kaplan. >> every american has a right to their police as odious or hateful might find them. they don't have a right to motivate by the beliefs to plan, perpetrate and again celebrate violence. that's never been protected by the first amendment. >> joyce, all i know about this letter of the law you can't yell
"fire" in a movie theater. tell me how in a million years you could yell "you will not replace us" and kill heather heyer. >> you're right to draw the legal distinction. the centerpiece of this lawsuit is something that's often referred to as the ku klux klan act. it's a civil conspiracy procedure. you can't engage in a conspiracy designed to deny people local rights. we're a country that because of the first amendment, we let nazis march on the streets of skokie where there are many holocaust survivors who lived when they marched there prominently. you can't create violent incidents and seek to deprive people of their fundamental rights and that's exactly what
happened in charlottesville during the united right rally. the lawyers positions are not argument, it's not evidence. they're giving the jury a taste of what the lawsuit is going to be about, and setting the context. the context this morning was very powerful. >> joyce, tell me in your view what the stakes are and how this trial ends up. >> it's important to know a little bit of history here, which is that the southern poverty law center took on the ku klux klan a couple of decades ago, very powerful and prominent in activism across the south and other parts of the country and criminal prosecutions can be really tough in this case and charlottesville there was a successful one, the man who killed heather heyer with his vehicle serving two consecutive
life terms in prison. that's not always the case. the southern poverty law center decided they'd bankrupt the ku klux klan with a civil lawsuit. it was very effective. the klan had to turn over their headquarters to the mother of a young man who had been lynched by members of that organization. i think we're seeing a similar strategy at play here. some of the groups in charlottesville in 2017 started to disband so i think we're fortunate to see this important smart use of the legal system in order to convince these groups it's just not in their financial interests to continue going forward. >> tyler, can you tell us what it's like in charlottesville? are supporters of these groups there? is there tension? can you take us inside what it's like this week? >> if there are any supporters of the defendants around i haven't seen them. a lot of support for the plaintiffs. there's been people outside the
courthouse each and every day holding up black lives matter flags and other showings of support. it's somber but hopeful the mood would be. >> we'll continue to follow your reporting. thank you for joining us. joyce sticks around. when we come back, merrick garland weighing that decision on whether to prosecute steve bannon after bannon defied a subpoena from the january 6 committee. new recording from the committee's investigations including a new subpoena a big one after a quick break.
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aspirin made amazing! another all dog years but as of this afternoon steve bannon has been under criminal contempt of congress for one for week but defying a subpoena from the january 6th committee. so why is he still a free man? why hasn't he been charged? why isn't he in jail? we covered the decision to prosecute or to not prosecute falls squarely on the shoulders of attorney general merrick garland. he must choose between two courses of action, one republican accusations of a political persecution and another that could result in a crisis of confidence among democrats who have questioned garland's capacity to make the important decisions. fork in the road emblematic of a larger tension catalogued by the "new yorker" garland versus
bannon is bidenism versus trumplism. the prosecution would reinforce latest messaging that biden, not trump is an authoritarian leader trying to punish his political enemies. for biden such messaging could influence key suburban swing voter answer undermine the premise of his presidency. as biden's attempt to enact his domestic agenda drags on his plunging approval numbers suggest that showmanship for now is outperforming probity. joining us is the author of the piece, dave rhode from thenew yorker.com. and joyce advance is back. david, i would push a little bit on this. they're already doing that. we covered the republicans like if this, that. the then/that is given. they will cover bidenism and authoritarian and the socialist whether steve bannon is charged
or not. >> you're right. it's interesting in that biden and i think garland are very similar in this sort of belief that governance will get them votes, as i wrote poll numbers in virginia democrats have to look out they need to govern to deliver, maybe in this case garland needs to quickly prosecute and indict bannon and waiting around or taking their time is not working. showmanship does appear to be getting more headlines at least drawing more republican support. >> joyce, i think the political analysis is right but some of what is hurting democrats is inaction on voting rights, inaction on the slow moving ongoing insurrection, inaction on the referral that had a lot of in modern times nine republicans including two on the committee leading the charge for holding steve bannon in contempt
counts as bipartisan. >> it does but merrick garland's decision is strickly a legal one, no the a political one. attorney general half of the country is going to be mad at you no matter what you do and that's not part of your calculus. his decision on bannon is bounded by the federal principles of prosecution. he can indict if he has evidence to obtain and sustain a conviction. we've seen that surface in front of our eyes here. the other interesting requirement in this case is he has to consider whether there's a noncriminal remedy that would be sufficient. congress could file a civil suit to enforce its subpoena. with don mcgahn it was like 750 days from when he was subpoenaed to when he testified and he wanted to testify. bannon doesn't. it's only the criminal remedy
with sanctions that can provide some meaningful enforcement of congress' obligations. when you walk through that analysis, it seems likely garland will have to indict in this case, wait until there's a grand jury in session with space on it in the district of columbia to return that indictment but that's not something that takes a long time, it's a misdemeanor case and i suppose they could go around the grand jury. i expect them to take it to the grand jury. i don't think we'll see in action much longer but not because of the political calculus. legally inindicting him is the right thing to do and as a prosecutor you're used to letting the consequences fall where they may. >> i want to ask you a two-part question, david. do you agree with joyce's analysis and two, we got news today the january 6th committee expects to subpoena john eastman, the man that adam kinzinger no less described as the architect of the coup plot,
conservative trump lawyer, expected to be subpoenaed next week. with the bannon subpoena and whether or not a congressional subpoena means anything anymore is on the line. is that something doj is cognizant of? >> they are. all of this is just unprecedented, you have the former white house strategists plotting with the sitting president to unleash a mob to prevent congress from certifying that president's defeat. garland is well intentioned and trying to be nonpartisan but he needs to act and pursue this investigation. it is a lose/lose. i would caution this is all extraordinary and what's happening and needs to be investigated as thoroughly and quickly as possible. >> i think the extraordinary
nature what everyone is sort of behind closed doors grappling with is an important reminder but that's been the case for five years. but certainly merrick garland is in a new role dealing with unprecedented crises. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. fermentati? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. at heinz, every ketchup starts with our same tomatoes. but not every tomato ends in the same kind of heinz ketchup. because a bit of magic unfolds when there's a ketchup for everyone.
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starts right now. >> hi, nicole. one of the days i want to ask you as a washington expert did today move the ball on the spending deal or not? it is hard to tell. >> it is hard. there are few edicts from my time in politics that holds. this does. if the democrats can make sure they don't let perfect become the enemy of pretty damned good then they move the ball. if you're going to see them on frankly our network and other places complaining what they didn't get they'll not have moved the ball and also done harm to biden's presidency. it's all in their hands and i think we should always be sure not to just cover disagreements within the democratic party but to always broad continue to the fact that republicans have totally frickin' awoman, lying president's lying letter to the editor amongst themselves and talking in bars how they can hold steve bannon in contempt because the crazies get them in primaries.