tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 27, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT
tonight on all in. a congressman goes from battling the mob, to apologizing for. with a new defensive ashli babbitt. >> how could that shooting be justified? >> no. it was murder. >> tonight a new look at how brutal the attack was. and as the january six committee proceeds, new concerns and the department of justice, leading the coup plotters getaway. and more fallout from the facebook papers, why mark zuckerberg kills spanish language voter registration tools, because he didn't want to appear partisan. and as the build back better negotiations reached and stages, why paid parental leave is a no-brainer even joe manchin can get behind. when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. a republican congressman from
texas, named trey nails, gave an interview to a right-wing outlet, accusing the u.s. capitol police of murder. it happened yesterday. he was asked about the shooting of -- the 35-year-old dryer who was killed on january, six as she was trying to jump through a door, leading to the house chamber. >> how could that shooting be justified? is there any way to justify that? >> no. greg, it was murder. i've been a long man for 30 years. when i was a sheriff i had deputies shoot and kill suspects. i've had deputies shot. i have had blue on blue incidents where one of my deputies in the shooting another deputy. the point, is i understand a little bit about use of force, i understand a little bit of a grand jury's, this shooting should've at least gone to a grand jury. but the department of justice had no intent to do a thorough investigation. the shooting took place january six, by -- they said no charges, we will
not pursue charges against lieutenant bird. the video was quite clear, it was murder. >> there is a lot to unpack there. first of, all we have often covered police shootings, of civilians on this show. as you probably know if you watch the show. personally i have no illusions about the fact that they are unjustified sometimes, absolutely, there been many cases of unjustified shootings that we've covered. but the context of this, tragic shooting, is quite clear. events of january six around, video they continue to get more and more footage, showing the violence. like this new clip, used in court today. you can see members of the mobs, bidding in spring chemical at officers. we also have the moments of course leading up to the shooting on tape. showing a riotous violent mob, pounding on the doors, leading to the speakers lobby, just outside the house chamber, where again, officers were evacuating members of congress. the rioters screams of the, officers than they smashed in the windows, and the, doors
with no police in that line, when she climbs through one of those broken windows. a capitol police officer protecting the members of congress standing behind, him warns, her and then fires one shot. the department of justice conducted a three month investigation in find no evidence of wrongdoing by the officer. -- cultivated by elements of the, ryan and donald trump himself. a recently recorded a video, marking what would've been her birthday. she has become a kind of political martyr for the cause of the insurrection. and congressman trey nails, has joined that cold. but, what makes it even stranger, and more troubling, in terms of what it means about the trajectory of the political, riot is this is a real change in tone. on january six, that same congressman, who was a sheriff as he said. his fourth day in office, he was one of those folks, that helped barricade the door to the house chamber. against members of the trump,
mob who were trying to break in. you can see him in those photos, he's in the blue, sure along with fellow congressman of georgia who would then go on to forget this whole experience, holding back the angry mob and compare the riot to tourists. congressman nails, who was a sheriff in texas, spent 30 years in line, form is tweeted on the afternoon of january, six quote, i was proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with capitol police, barricading the entrance to our secret house chamber, while trying to calm the situation of the protesters. what i'm witnessing is disgrace, we're better than, this violence is never the answer. law and order. that's interesting, law in order. that phrase, a powerful one. a meaningful one. those images of him, helping to protect his fellow members, were featured on the front page of dozens of newspapers on the next, morning of the washington post, and the tendency, the detroit free press. that's him in the blue shirt he was in fact hailed as one is the heroes of that, they
putting himself in the line there. on the local news station even aired a report highlighting his actions, featuring an interview he gave, while the insurrection was still going on. >> i said we can go out there and protest, but you can do it peacefully, the to try to get in there and is, violence that's not the answer. we as americans need to be able to have a civil conversation with each other, civilly. sit across the table from each other and have dialogue in meaningful conversation. but it just seems like we can't do that anymore. >> the following week, that same congressman, who tweeted law in order, he told political reporter olivia beavers, he thought officers would've been justified and shooting more people, if they had made it through the door, he was helping to hold. >> the guards are saying, stop banging on. that don't come through that.
or we will shoot. you and i felt that it would have been totally justified in doing so. think otis they didn't have to. >> that of course, that situation he's describing, the barricading door and saying don't come and we will shoot, you that is precisely the situation that the officer found himself in, with ashli babbitt, exactly the same. four months after the insurrection, congressman nails remain more or less on this, track in april he approached joe biden after joint -- criminal justice, reform the next month he and democratic congresswomen of florida introduced a bipartisan bill. in july he was actually selected as one of the five republicans to join the special bipartisan panel to investigate january six. you might remember speaker nancy pelosi, vetoed two of those republicans, jim banks of indiana, and jim jordan of ohio, but not congressman nails. of course the whole thing fell apart, one republican leader kevin mccarthy pulled all the nominations. again, nails was not in the crazy category. he was not in the category of
republican members of congress, like jim jordan no gains in marjorie greene. yet here is now. on this far right station. contributing to the martyrdom of ashley babbitt who lost her life by accusing the capitol police of murder, for firing the gun under the conditions he explicitly said were justified. congressman nails has been battling the mob, to being in apologize for. >> how could that shooting be justified? is there any way to justify that? >> no. greg, it was murder. >> there is no struggling the line between supporting insurrection and supporting democracy. no middle ground there, day by day, one by one, republicans all fall in line. they moved from the democracy camp to the insurrection, camp under the exhaustible pressure of political expedience, or genuine personal radicalization, and it's hard to say which is worse. lana sure is a congress editor for politico or she oversees
coverage of this republican faction. and she joins me now. >> i find nails an interesting figure, because he's a freshman, rap key was lauded for his, what he did that day. and he was not, he is not made a name for himself in the caucus, in the way that say marjorie taylor greene, have sought to, and yet here he is saying this while the inflammatory thing. quite casually in fact. >> sure. it's important to note that democrats were fine with him because of his law enforcement background, during the early days of the january six, that turned into the select panel, they thought he might be a welcome presence given his expertise, but clearly there is a shift going on in the conference, and he is on the left of that. >> tell me more about that shift. it seems to me the further we get from that day, the more the narrative and the consensus view among republicans, who were shocked on that, day changes on how they conceive.
>> for sure. olivia herself actually did a great story just today, -- great example of the freshman member who swinging back and, fourth kind of like a human pendulum is like when some of her colleagues it described her as. it is a matter of political expediency, as frankly donald trump remains the leader of the republican party. chris, when you saw an independent commission turned into a democratic-led select, planet the political -- started to cut against investigating january six. against some of the things that maybe congress men nails think if he turned out differently he might have been a participant in. >> i, wonder where you think, look, there's the folks that have been in congress for a long, time and then there are these members that have chosen to kind of make a name for themselves, in a very specific way, marjorie taylor greene, madison cawthorn, matt, gates all those folks. where, how would you describe, the sort of faction that your
nails is part of? nancy mazes and, other of though she's a little different in terms of a republican party that are attuned intensely, to precisely the political dynamics that you're indicating, they have not been there for 20 5:26, years where they have these sort of independent bases of support. have not sort of chosen to make their name, i wonder if they're looking at the marjorie taylor, greene the man, cases in seeing some upside, they're in pursuing that way of being a member of congress. >> quite possibly. certainly, congressman nails doing this on newsmax, this is essentially the tp channel that the trump base tunes into most often. he's speaking to that directly to that kind of person here. you put up on the screen some of the comments that were made to, olivia and this is particularly interesting cross section of the republican conference, because it includes
mullin, includes congressman gun gal gonzales, you mentioned climbers man clyde, who is the first to epitomize this, he later was relieved as the men guarding the door. i want to put them in their own camp, quite a few of them have law enforcement experience. and they've leaned on that at times. to make somewhat even judgments. but not lately obviously. >> gonzalez is an interesting case, to you sort of viewed as a star who quite famously says that he's bowing, out and not running for reelection, in the reason he is, not is because he landed in airport with his wife and kids and had to be escorted by police, because of threats from modest supporters, and he was in that same little cadre of folks at that door. >> yes he was. he obviously has felt more free to be anti trump in public, but also you see what it's done to his political trajectory. this group of guys guarding
that door, have really kind of split and gone different paths, here in it's clear that he's won, gonzales is another. >> illustrates very neatly the point i'm making at the end of the monologue, their which is hard to straddle, it's hard to be in the middle there. you've seen now with nails and clyde, in choosing their route, that it's hard to stay in the middle of those two opposing forces, thank you so much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in senator sheldon -- a member of the judiciary committee was except vested getting the members of january six, and release a blockbuster pair there preliminary findings earlier this month. senator, there's a somewhat similar trajectory happening over in the senate, side particularly with chuck grassley, on your committee, who, it wasn't quite what he did, it wasn't quite as inflammatory as what congressman nails, did but the minority report he released, in opposition to what the senate
judiciary report released about what they found that was happening in donald trump's rattling the cage, trying to overturn the, election it was essentially apology, a maga apology, a authored by chuck grassley, in the really stuck out to, me about where he's at politically right now. >> yeah well, the judiciary committee, the republican committee staff in particular, have been extremely political, all the way back to carrying the kavanaugh nomination, so, as staff behavior. this is kind of what we've come to expect. i still have high regard to grassley, and as an individual, i think he really regrets what took place, but at the end of
the day, it's his staff, and they should've done better. >> what is this that is of what the senate judiciary committee is looking, i know obviously they've done quite a few interviews, one person they were not able to interview was jeffrey clark, who figures very prominently in that report. and who appears is going to sit down for an under oath, or at least questioning, i don't know if it's under oath, with the january six committee this week, how important is clark in all of this? >> i think he's very important, in all of this. your viewers might recall, he was the head of the environment natural resources section of the department of justice, which men in the trump department of justice it was his job to sit there and do nothing. and as everybody was clearing out at the end of the trump administration, there was a vacancy, in the civil division that he moved up, into as acting. in from that position, he cooked up this scheme, that the
department of justice, would intervene in the georgia election. in encourage the state of georgia to overturn the results in georgia. and worked with folks in and around the trump white house, to try to cook that idea up. even if required a little coup d'état in the department of justice, with him throwing out the acting attorney general. now thankfully cooler heads prevailed even among people who had gone along with a lot from trump. and both trump's own legal team and the way house leadership said, mass resignations if you do this. don't you dare. but he knows a lot about what went on. he knows whoever gave him the material to write the report that he proposed, to the acting attorney general, he knows we had conversations with, any made it very quick comp to a dark money organization, and who always behind that, and what is ideals, where he's got a lot that we would like to know. unfortunately we have no subpoena power in the senate
judiciary committee, when it's 50/50. but think goodness, the january six commission is pursuing. this my understanding -- appears before your committee tomorrow and there's a number of issues obviously circulating over the department of justice the attorney general. there is two that i wanted to ask you about, and they say this stipulating the attorney general should be independent on questions of criminal prosecution and should follow the facts and laws they often stated. there is of course the referral from the house to the u.s. attorney's office and district of columbia bout steve bannon's contempt, the fact that he has flagrantly violated that subpoena. also brought a question about whether the department of justice is doing enough to investigate the president and his circle for the events of january 6th. where you on both of those issues? >> i think that they are both very legitimate questions. that ban in question gets a
little bit close and the questions are going to involve conversations between him when he worked for the presidents, and president charms but it looks like they are trying to cover our conversations that bannon had with other people, not presidential, i have no claim to executive privilege under any theory that everyone has ever articulated in ending courtroom. there should be a way for the department of justice to come forward with an answer pretty quickly, that says okay here are the things where there is a legitimate question, as to the risk we are prosecuting if you don't turn. with respect to the january 6th investigation, -- i think really just a glorified trespassing investigation, or are they going to look really hard at the people behind it, the people who funded it, the people who coordinated it, the people in the willard hotel
command room, and the members of congress they have participated in that effort. that is the part that is most interesting to me, if members of congress were deliberately holding the proceedings that, with their objections, so they could keep a time window open that would allow the mob outside to break in and disrupt. if that was part of the plan, that is something that needs investigation. >> do you have reason to believe that is the case? >> there is considerable evidence that a number of house members at least we're in very coarse coordination with people in the willard hotel command center. when a prosecutor called predication exist to pursue those questions. >> all right senator sheldon, white house, sit on the senate judiciary committee which we will be hearing testimony tomorrow. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. >> another day in court for --
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as i was swarmed by a violent mob, they warn it's not my badge. they grabbed and strip me of my radio, they seized ammunition that was seized my body. they began to beat me with their fists, and why felt like hard metal objects. >> one of the insurrectionists accused of assaulting d.c. police officer michael fanone, was this man thomas vic of buffalo new york scene here holding a capitol police shields during the attack. footage from fanone's body cam appears to show him grabbing the badge and radio, as he is swarmed by the crowd. doj even added these arrows to point out where he was doing. when he was pressed by the fbi, civic admitted to burying his badge in his backyard. he faces multiple felony charges for the attack, he has pleaded not guilty and has been held in a d.c. jail since his arrest in march.
earlier this month he wrote a letter to the judge overseeing his case saying he now loves donald trump, adding quote. january 6th was a disgrace to our nation that left a scar trump's ultimately responsible for. the day judge amy berman jackson ordered he be released before his trial citing a toxic environment among january 6th environment. he will be turned over to the custody of his parents, ordered by the judge to limit his social media use and cable news viewing. and he joins me now. scott, what can you tell us about mr. civic. he was one of what's now 45 january six defendants and pre trial detention at the washington d.c. jail. it's a small percentage of the 630 plus federal defendants, but these are the inmates the defendant is facing the most serious accusations the most
violent accusations or simply to the highest profile accusations. thomas sibick is the unique case accused of stealing the radio and batch of thomas fun own. thomas has made several requests to get out of jail in pretrial. among the things he argues that the d.c. jail him itself is inhospitable to him, and others. as defense lawyer, chris, says he volunteered to go into the hole, to go into solitary, to get away from the other january six defendants. in the d.c. jail they have a separate wing for the january six defendants. the inmates call it the pitcher wing, it's known as the chase ticks wing. it is called like in there, and toxic. >> this is fascinating, so he wants to get away from that wing because he has broken ideologically with those individuals as the point his
defense lawyers are saying. >> and one of the previous filings, chris, they say he's been accused of cozying up to the correctional officers by the other inmates. there was one anecdote share today his defense lawyer says, the group in the january six wing began singing the national anthem, and that civic feel pressure to go join them. that's when they said it was called like, but this is not small ten increasing issue. judges are concerned about the conditions in the d.c. jail, the segregation of the january six defendants, and overall the medical care being offered. i'm gonna tell you, chris, concerns about the d.c. jail and i get no small number of emails from people saying why is that now suddenly a thing, now that the january six defendants are complaining. >> my experience as a reporter has not been that gel is great for anyone, basically who has been accused of a crime or put them in a better state of mind
generally. what was the judges implication and not watch cable news his peers that were releasing him in custody to. >> it's interesting, the judge was told by defense lawyers that says mom and dad had different political views, her solution was turnoff politics, don't get on social media, don't watch cable tv, don't illicit this political passion that allegedly brought you to washington d.c. on january 6th. that has come up before another cases, but the judge was unequivocal about that today. >> what was the victim before he came to washington, how did he join up joining the insurrection? >> we heard from his defense lawyer from his school age lacrosse days, there's work in the medical field, the defenses trying to make the argument that he is a good citizen who has disavowed donald trump, and the false election statements. in one of his court motions, civics defense lawyer calls
donald trump's words, false, and conspiracy story. they try to indicate that he has distanced himself from that, with mixed results. >> final question for you is, why did the badge, why did you take the badge, why did he bury it? did we have any further indication from his attorney or himself what was going through his head? he assaulted fanone, but that seems like was it a trophy, was it a souvenir he was grabbing? >> you see the dirt around the baggage, prosecutors argued he buried in his backyard. his story has changed according to federal prosecutors, that is one of the reasons the prosecutor sought to keep him in jail pre-trial. questioning his ability to follow authorities, to tell a straight story. so there is a bit of equivocation on that, i think it's an important question, but it's also a distinctive case. there are cases that are unicorns, chris, some
defendants are accused of doing things that only they are accused of doing. how much of it has been one of those from the start. scott mcfarland, as, always thanks so much. >> coming up new reporting that mark zuckerberg axed a plan divide voting information in spanish, because it would seem partisan. that story in the latest revelations from the facebook papers, after this. revelations from the faceboo papers, after this
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emerging from the thousands of internal facebook documents leaked by whistleblowers, that given the option between doing the best thing for the company's bottom line, particularly in doing it best thing for users and society, facebook chooses the best thing for the company every single time, washington post reports, quote ahead of the 2020 u.s. election, facebook builds a voting information center, that promoted factual information about how to register, voters sign up to your poll worker. teams that whatsapp wanted to create a version of it in spanish, pushing the information proactively through
a chabot, or embedded linked to millions of voters who communicate regularly through whatsapp. but facebook chairman and ceo mark zuckerberg reads objected to the idea, saying it was not politically neutral, it could make the company appear partisan, according to a person familiar with the project, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, to discuss internal matters, as well as documents reviewed by the post. a spokeswoman told the post, quote whatsapp did not propose pushing information to all users, which is not how whatsapp works. facebook owns whatsapp. they could've made it easier for millions of spanish speaking americans do vote, but they apparently chose not to. election disinformation among spanish voters was a problem in 2020, just after the election the new york times reported, go it appeared facebook and twitter might've looked the deluge of disinformation targeting spanish speaking americans. -- it secured an early victory, that social media was censoring's win, and that mr. biden was cheating.
it appears, facebook did not just overlook at disinformation, they decided, zuckerberg decided against proactively providing the correct information, two spanish peeking americans. elizabeth joie skins, part of the washington post team who broke the story to ignore spanish speaking vote voters, she joins me now. it's great to have you. first, tell me what the source of this, where they're internal documents, that led to this revelation? >> well, first of all, i should say this, zuckerberg did not mix the idea. they actually did launch a smaller version of the idea, a whittled down version of the idea, where you could text a chatbot, to fact check some stories and spanish or get information about how to vote, we know, is that this move was kind of classic zuckerberg, where, people at the company would present ideas, sometimes they would come up to the ceo, in increasingly, this is what
we see also in the documents, there would be these objections about the speech, and how increasingly, in both years as mark zuckerberg has become more isolated, he's also taken on more hard-line positions about free speech. you might remember a couple years ago, he was defending the rights of holocaust deniers, ins conspiracy theories. you can see that time and time again, in the kind of countless micro decisions, that bubbled up to him, that we don't know about. where he raised his objections first freeze beach. those sometimes we would he found out would also override his own free speech principles, and that's what he did to get into vietnam, where he agreed to the government, censoring activists and criticism of the government, in order to be in that country as a condition of being there. >> what was the impetus for the folks that were inside the whatsapp team? to try to create this pro active voter information bought, inside what's up? >> i think it was just part of a slew of measures, that
everybody, the company spent two years preparing for the 2020, election is somebody told me, they did not want facebook to be the story. so i think this was just one of many measures, the people were trying to propose, to be proactive, and not mitigate the harms of the platform. they knew there was misinformation, all over the platform, that's very clear, from all the documents that i've seen, and i think that that was just an initiative to try to mitigate those problems. like many initiatives at the company, it sort of the leadership, the leadership we have a really hard time with it, if it came up against that line of free speech, they were constantly obsessed, with in general, zuckerberg him self was very concerned, i heard about the term, called false positives. which is not have to do a disease, it has to do with facebook's internal term, when they take down content that they should not have taken down. it was legitimate, contact they took it down by mistake.
he and leadership were assessed with false positives, they are obsessed with getting it wrong. and because of that, they did not always take measures, they were reluctant to take measures that would litigate harm. >> what's striking here, is he's, making a calculated -- which is also a correct calculation. which is to say, if facebook were to proactively, in spanish, say the, folks hey here's where you can register to vote, conservatives would attack that. for being partisan. but part of what i see here, is internalizing a certain kind of right-wing cheek, as opposed to thinking about, is it independently the case that it's partisan detail people in the language that they may speak, where to vote. it's not, we saw in miami-dade county, we saw on the rio grande valley, there's a lot of people who speak spanish, who voted for donald trump. and yet you can see, at least in his justification, this concern about public conservative kentucky can produce deception. >> i think that for me in through the entire company
through the trump, years they were absolutely terrified, of the wrath of conservatives, zuckerberg made it a personal relationship with jared kushner, essentially to try to mitigate some of that. it's still made him a punching bag of the right. what's happened is the way those decisions, the way that that rat trickle down in the company, was that conservatives and republicans, held big sway within the company. and as we saw time and again in the documents, they were able to, have their outlets, the right-wing outlets, were less subject to fact checking, right-wing publishers we elect subject to fact checking, right-wing politicians were also more exempt from their roles. it was essentially a double standard, that was often created, in the case of the, voting they did actually put their main voting information center, i believe was in spanish, again, it will ultimately happen on whatsapp, is the more whittled down
version of that. >> okay, elizabeth who's been reporting on those facebook files for the washington post, thanks a lot. >> thanks. >> ahead, in trying to make a deal on the presidents build back better, plans will democrats sacrifice paid family leave? while the u.s. is failed to figure out what nearly every other country in the world is managed to accomplish, after this. managed to accomplish, after this this (engines revving, cars hitting one another.) (sfx: continued vehicle calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet.
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♪ i'm gonna keep on lovin' you ♪ turns out everyone does sound better in the shower. and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage, go with the general. the fda's advisory body voted near unanimously, to approve a lower dose pfizer coronavirus vaccine, for kids ages 5 to 11. this vote is expected to make a final ruling with respect to the few, days the cdc advisory panel expected to vote next week. in the 28 million or so kids in this group could start getting shots immediately after that. gotta, say it's news that parents like me have been waiting for. speaking of parenthood, my oldest ryan was born, ten years ago. 2011. just about to turn ten. he was just two and a half months if they started my first
show, the weekend show, here and msnbc. unites look like a few days off, and was back at work that very weak. not taking more, time for her birth, is one of the huge regrets in my life. i still think about it, but that is basically the culture in the united states, we largely do not have paternal leave, we barely even have maternal leave, particularly not as a national guaranteed benefit, there are lots of times were people talk about american exceptionalism, our country be really great at something, but really terrible it, something and oftentimes those comparisons can be a little, misleading this is one of those where it's just completely black and white, take away this map. the countries that are different shades of that greenish, color offers some sort of maternal leave, that is more than four weeks, as like government policy. the orange countries offered zero. that makes us one of six countries in the world, with no national paid leave, zero. as you can see, just about every other country in the,
world is figured out how to give, at the very latest, mothers guaranteed paid leave when they have a child, we do not even have that, a lot of countries that are economic peer, countries like canada for instance, have maternal and paternal leave. i know folks who are canadians, and friends in other countries who have taken me even pairs. the mom will take sometime, the dad will take some time, they will take some time together as a new family. this is true throughout a lot of european countries. material leave in particular, is countries that are much much poorer than us, pakistan, gives mothers 12 weeks. vietnam, mothers get 26 weeks. in fact the global average for countries that provide leave for new mothers is 29 weeks, again, i'm probably not telling you anything you don't know. all of this is been talked about before, it's not some hotcakes, some discovery. i've talked about, a lot of my colleagues have been talked about it, it's been talked about across the political aisle. why are we, here there's no reason for it to be political
at all? despite the weird pathetic in very revealing whining by some people, about transportation secretary pete buttigieg taking parental leave. again, let's just keep it real conservative here. it just limited to material, leave as a first step, all of those countries you see on the map, very different politics, very different institutions. different forms of government. they all understand, as the most basic thing in the world, that a new mother needs time to take some time to be with her child. and we're talking about this because, paid family leave is part of the big biden build back better agenda. proposal for 12 weeks right now. right now there should be, honestly. if you went to the floor tomorrow, 535, votes in the u.s. congress, for 12 weeks, guaranteed maternal leave. just tomorrow. it's nuts that that's not the case, i don't even know if there's even a single public republican vote for. democrats have to go it alone,
as they have to do on many of these. things right now they're fighting between a whole bunch of different priorities. and have come to a situation where they have paired the pay leave back from 12 weeks to four, weeks and that is now even teetering on the brink. it is when you take a step back, that you really see this shockingly damning, facts about our country and our politics. that we are arguing about this, and whittling away in negotiating. how is the world figured out a way to do this and we have not? right now a major part of this bill, that democrats are fretting over's family leave. and the part that is in danger of getting chopped down in the next to nothing. and so the question becomes, what do we do here? about that in the other priorities in the bill, and i'm going to talk about that next. d i' going to talk about that next. going to talk about that next. -on it. on it, with jardiance. meet the people who are managing type 2 diabetes and heart risk with jardiance. jardiance is a once-daily pill that can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke.
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collective social safety, net that were brought to late, and exasperated by a once in generation pandemic. big disruption, he writes quote, build back better represents an effort, to never again makes citizens so vulnerable, in the next pandemic, or in an enduring emergency like the climate crisis. i like that, way of thinking about, it's a more helpful way of thinking about why this bill matters and what it's trying to do. david dan, is executive editor of the progressive analysis magazine, he's doing great reporting on the, billy as a pending piece on the, times it's entitled, democrats it's finally time to focus on big ones. let's start first, you articulated what is the best paragraph length conceptual, vision of what the bill is. tell me how you see it, when someone says, what is this, bill what unifies the various features of it? i kind of stumbled upon it in writing this frankly. the idea is to build back
better, what are we building back from? well there were all of these tears as you mentioned, in our society, that were really highlighted by the pandemic, we didn't have childcare when the schools shut down, we did not have shelter for a lot of people when there was a shelter in place order, and people lost jobs, they lost their health insurance, we did not have sick leave when workers were calling ill with covid, we didn't have at home care, when nursing homes were like a death trap, and for many people, they don't even have $400 to cover emergency expenses when there's an emergency like there was in the pandemic. the idea is to take those things, and improve the ability for people to manage, a crisis. i think that's a good conceptual way to think about. >> i do too, i think one of the ways to think about the social safety net parts of, it there's a climate aspect to, that relates to this is, well
because we will face increasingly severe climate disruptions, the absence of aggressive action. you've got this proposal, originally it came out of the budget committee, with senator bernie sanders, three and a half trillion dollars. mansion in similar boxes that they've been pairing them. there's been this question, about how to get the bill to a level, in spending, that joe manchin would give a thumbs up. to those two is to go, one is to take all those various programs, and pair it showed them back in different ways. this one will have to have an income qualification, this one will only have four year to, the other way is to choose two or three or four, whatever and do those begin permanent. and you're making the argument for the latter. why? >> because, half measures, are not going to be seen by the public, as a way that government is restoring its capability to function in their interests. when you look at what's the pay leave program for example, is
offering. it's used to be, under the family, acts which was jill friendsville, for this, a public program, it was paid for with a little bit a payroll tax, and you just access it and draw down those dates when you need them. now, it's being managed in a hybrid system, there are some private insurance companies involved. it kind of operates like the health insurance system. and it's a recipe for endless hassle, and less frustration when you try to take time off. and, i don't think the purpose of public policy, should be to anger people. and frustrate people. >> you say this about the sort of specific program designed right now, to use the benefit one person must, learn whether their employers they offer pain, beaver whether they're eligible for federal assistance. and apply with the proper entity, turning in some combination of pay stubs, tax information, work history, evidence to comply with numerous eligibility
requirement. we've been through the hassle accuracy of american health insurance particularly, and, look some kind of bureaucratic mechanics, that are going to be somewhat unavoidable in public programs. even countries say that administering wealth. we should be clear about that. your point is, and trying to get this half measure, you're not sure it's worth keeping in. either you choose to do it or not. >> yes. you know who agrees with me, joe manchin. the one program that he has said i don't need, income limits, i don't need to cap, it can be universal is pre-kindergarten why did he say that pretty kindergarten bill is okay for a universal coverage. it's because he implemented it. in west virginia, when he was governor, any realize that if you let everybody and it's very popular, very successful. i just feel like, democrats
cannot over and over again, make big promises, and failed to deliver them. it just talks defies the brand of democrats, and i think it's far preferable, to find those programs, that the broad elements of the clock is find amenable, and do them universally, do them simply, as simply as humanly possible. and do them well. and then say, to the electorate, we accomplish this for you. we delivered this for you, and sign up with us again it will get some more. >> the children's tax credit is an example of, that in the american rescue plan, i think you would agree with. that straightforward, simple, those checks are already going out. there's some folks, well there are some eligibility issues for folks who don't file tax returns, but that is been continued over to another year. in that i think, a lot of people lakes, but then you think it's not clear and how you pull folks and how much
it's making a difference on your politics. >> i have seen some polling that shows measurable increase, in popularity for joe biden, and the democratic party, including from trump voters. if they have actually received the child tax credit, a lot of these polls that you see. are not just for recipients, your beneficiaries, and if you just narrow it to beneficiaries, there was a recent poll that did show, a measurable increase in support, and i just think, what's the alternative here. it's just to create the hassle accuracy, to put attacks on peoples time, in then grind the agenda down into nothing, and then say hey come back will fix it later. >> we will talk to someone maybe tomorrow who has a different view on this. but i appreciate you taking time today, it really was great. >> that is all in on this tuesday. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening rachel. >> good evening chris, thank you my friend. much much much appreciated. and thanks to your home for
joining us this. our happy to have you here. maybe it was too good to be true. it would be like, john will exceed booth taking his shot at lincoln, at ford's theater. and then jumping up on this stage, and all that. doing all of that, but then a few weeks later, realizes it isn't going over well and he's like, okay, yes, i was there. but are you sure it was me who killed him? it was an accident.s it was the self-defense or something. yeah, it was actually a terrible thing about president lincoln's untimely demise. i have no idea how that happened. it would be like john wilkes booth doing that. it would be like king kong climbing down from the empire state building and being like -- who, me? what are you talking about? i'm afraid of heights. i've never even been to midtown. i definitely don't have a crush on her. i have no idea who that could have been up there.o why do you even think it was me? it would be likegu