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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  October 26, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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network, fox news, this will certainly be fun to watch from the, sidelines that is our broadcast for this monday evening. as we start a new week with our thanks for being here with us, on behalf of all of our colleagues at the networks of nbc news, goodnight clearly the direction of the committee is to look at that premeditation to make sure that we identify. >> new details on what was happening inside the trump war room during the insurrection, and one new reporting and republican members have aoc and other members calling for explosion. >> today is the day american patriot start taking down names and kicking asked. >> then carole's journey to qanon. explosive new reporting on what facebook knew about how it
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radicalized users. and writer producer and director ever duvernay on her new netflix collaboration with colin kaepernick in this american moment. in all in, starts right now. >> good evening from new york i'm chris hayes, multiple members of congress are intensifying calls for the explode one of their colleagues. in the wake of a new report not yet confirmed by nbc news that may shed new lights, on a degree on which republican members and their offices and staffers, may have had an active role in planning the protests leading up to the january 6th insurrection. not before we get to that rolling stone report, which is precipitated these new calls for expulsion, again, nbc has not confirmed. but it's worth assessing all of the available facts that we have confirmed. things that we do know from a variety of sources. even prior to this reporting over the weekend, all of that information already painted an incredibly denman picture of the ways in which donald trump
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and his allies, including congressional allies work to overthrow the work of a free and fair election. now we know that donald trump called the secretary of state, urging him to find votes to overturn the election in that state. >> so look. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state and flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, you know, this is -- it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it. >> whatever you want to call it. you come up with the justification for giving us one more vote than we need. trump of course also called the member of the wing, county board of canvassers and michigan after she agreed to certified biden's win, having them initially refers to. she flipped and he called her,
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trump also called the chairman of the maricopa board of supervisors in arizona. that individual said he never returned the presidents call, because he presumed trump was similarly trying to pressure him to change the results of the election that he oversell. now we've been talking about this conduct for so long, it be easy to lose sight of how widely inappropriate. is the sitting president of the united states, the most powerful and in the country, calling up these local officials, brow breeding, braiding people with an actual platform. and at least one case, pressuring them to overturn the election results in his favor. but again, that is just one small set of what he was up to. the president and his allies. there is of course the john eastman memo, which provided trump with a clear roadmap to destroy american democracy on january six. by tasking vice president mike pence with refusing to certify the election, sending the results back to the states, where eastman notes in the memo, trump ally legislators could overturn the will of their
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constituents over bogus allegations of fraud. we also know that eastman attended kneeling at that so-called command center, at washington's wheeler hotel. along with trump ally rudy giuliani, and steve bell in, where they work to push that conspiracy both inside and outside trump. as a washington post reports quote, their activities including finding publicizing alleged evidence of fraud, urging members to state legislators to challenge biden 's victory and calling on the trump supporting public to press republican officials in key states. >> to that and we know trump met with, sympathetic legislative from pennsylvania, at the white house. after falling into one of the hearings and it's clear that he quote, won pennsylvania by a lot. thanks to the recent report by the senate judiciary committee we also know that trump made multiple attempts to get in the department of justice to interfere. speaking with the doj, according again, to that senate report, nine times just between december and early january. where he repeatedly asked to
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initiate investigations, fall off suits on his behalf and publicly declared the 20 2020 election corrupt. the acting attorney general at the time, a man name -- the acting attorney general named jeffrey clark is set to testify before house committee investigating january 6th this week. so we can learn more about the nature of those calls from the president soon. it was not just donald trump in this legal advisors pushing to delegitimized the results of the election. and placing january six in the forefront of their attempts to do so. back in december of 2020, it was reported, the house republican led by abbott trump supporter congressman of alabama, they're meeting with the -- about ways to overturn the election result. again, not our secret, not doing this behind closed doors, in political. and congressman brooks wasn't really sneaky about this, you may remember that he said this
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in the rally on stage leading up to the insurrection on january six. >> we are not going to let them continue to corrupt our election. and steal from us our god given right to control our nations destiny. today is the day american patriot start taking down names and kicking ass. >> he just said it, there in public, quite loudly, into the microphone. now congressman bro cuts inside to just himself from the events of january six, but it is worth remembering. he admitted to wearing body armor to that speech. somewhat strange. perhaps a sign that he was concerned that the d.c. receding may not be entirely peaceful. on january 4th, congressman madison car thorn of keller -- quoted that january six is fast approaching the future of this republic hinges on the action of a solitary few. get ready, the fate of a nation rests on your soldiers, yours and mine. let's show washington are the backbone are made of steel and titanium. it's time to fight.
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on the morning of the six congresswoman lauren moment of colorado tweeted, today's 1776. which is, well it's obvious, but that is a reference to the war when a government was being violently overthrown. perhaps the most damning tweet came later that day from congressman paul from arizona, the picture of the pro trump crowd, then you see -- were quote, biden should concede. i want his concession on my desk tomorrow morning. don't make me come over there. >> think about that, what does that mean? come over there. do what exactly congressman? or better yet maybe you should tell the committee of your colleague investigating the events of that they, because it sure does look like you're encouraging this mob to use threats of physical force to overturn the election results of the election. now in the wake of the -- attack on the capitol, and his second impeachment in his involvement in inciting, it the recalls for these pro insurrection members of congress to be removed from
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office. again, just based on what was known publicly on those tweets and the things that they, said in the meetings they took, those calls for them to be expelled aren't testifying again today. and that comes in response to that new reporting from the rolling stone. it could be very transparent here, the reporting has not been confirmed by and this bc, news it has been informed by -- but it has been precipitated by these numbers of, calls who have been appeared to be taking it seriously, because it alleges that a number of their colleagues sitting colleagues, and staff, including representative co-starred and boebert, and call form and, brooks as well as congresswoman marjorie and white house chief of staff mark meadows communicated with the people planning the protests leading up to the insurrection. with one, again, an on and missed protest organizers tongue the magazine quote, we will talk to barbara's teen car thorns team, go starts team, like back-to-back-to-back. >> now we should tell you congresswoman lauren boebert, of colorado, said that this is false.
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i had no role in the planning or it's a kitchen of an event that took place at the capitol. or anywhere in washington d.c. in january six. and the statement congressman of -- also that he denied that anyone in his office participate in the planning of the rally on january 6th or any criminal activity. nbc's reached up to the offices of congressman gosar timbers, we have not yet heard back. but again, take that rolling stone report, which is prompted at these new calls for members of congress and take that entirely to the side. pretend it didn't happen. just look at the public record of what we know. donald trump is it all i did what they did and the many attempts to sow distrust in our election and facilitate the coup. and on that alone there -- i think is a pretty good argument that many of these people aren't fit to hold public office. but she would withdrawn it's a national correspondent of politico, where she has exhausted covered from the -- robert costa's a national political report for the washington post, and coauthor of peril, with bob woodward
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about the closing weeks of the trump administration which of course includes this period of time. and robert let's start there, your book includes quite a bit of reporting on, this and you've done quite a bit of reporting specifically on the presidents inner circle. and their coordination about the date of the six. give us a sense of what you found and how much outreach there was to members of congress. i >> at times looking at all of these events and episodes can be like looking at an abstract painting at the wall. with a lot of colors and different points. but the want to focus on i would suggest, as a reporter, is trump himself. what is trump doing. he is the commander-in-chief, the president at the time, january 5th calling into the war room as we depict in that, from talking to ben, and talking to giuliani. also talking that night to senator ted cruz of texas. trying to whip up senate republicans to object to every state. this is an effort that had a
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lot of players but, let's never forget, it's trump himself driving this from the top with lawmakers pressure on the vp, on doj, and so many other. front >> betsy you've been doing so much reporting on this, and one of the things, and the reason that i think we've seen this reaction from members of congress to this report is that, the context here is the suspicion. not harbored, but not as that list at all. in fact denied by soon in. members that there was a active collusion by republican members of congress with the folks restoring the capitol. i think some democratic members have sort of intimated that, they have walked up to the line of making that accusation. that hangs over this entire investigation right now and you see it in how quickly those called got made from democratic members, what do you think? >> it highlights why there is such a focus and such a massive
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level of interest in the january six select committee. the rolling stone story is based on an anonymous stores, we don't know who's making these claims. when we do know, is that the select committee is in des moines to interview on the record and under oath to people who organized the january 6th rally. one of their first batches of subpoenas that they sent out went to the rally organizers. as we are all very well a word lying to congressional investigators is against the law. they have an opportunity to bring in these people who know whether or not the reporting it's correct, get them under oath, and get them to tell the whole story. and remember, these rally organizers are not executive branch officials. they don't have any we have claiming that executive privilege covers the information that they have regarding the events of that day. and we also know that the committee is moving really quickly to trying to enforce that subpoena with exhibit a, b, and steve bennett. and they can contempt vote
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against. so that's why reporting like this and stories along these lines that come out, in recent months as part of the reason that this investigation is so important. because it's a rare opportunity, and process allots opportunity to get all of these folks who are involved, to know the whole story, and to get them to tell a story. >> robert, there is a lot in your book on that willard hotel meeting, and again, that is one portion of the sort of plan here. but it is pretty clear that meadows at the very least is in touch with the folks that are in that war room. and planning to make the sort of big last stand on the six. >> so many people on the president circle were involved, certainly mark meadows was chief of staff to trump at the time. and was intimately involved with everything that was going on about the six. and you have to think about what they were trying to do to prevent biden from taking office. that there was a violence that happened on the six and the committee is probing where
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they're connections between the organizing to prevent biden from taking office with the direct violence that happened on the capitol. and that still in area of reporting but meadows himself was directly involved with the effort driven by the president to have the rally to pressure lawmakers, to pressure pence. yeah and one of those organizers, who's in associate abandons, was talking to the committee today, and weeks up to the rally. he promoted the event, in the aftermath he's defended some of the militia groups in the sick if it get contingents charged with participating in the attack on the capitol. what can you tell us about him? >> yes that's right, stockton goes way quite far back was steve bannon, he's written for breitbart, news which of course is one of the conservative media outlets that really lay the groundwork for trumpism. stockton was also connected to the effort that got bannon indicted, a group called we build a wall, that reported to get donations from grassroot
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conservative activists and try to use the money to build a wall, in the southern border. federal prosecutors allege that bannon and others, actually misappropriated that money and used it for nothing related to building the, while trump pardoned bannon, before that could go to trial. stockton is not been charged with any crimes in charge of this, but it shows that he very much has a close long-standing relationship with, bannon who of course was also deeply connected to that outside effort by trump's non government supporters, to really foment a very high level of dissension and pushback, against the legitimate outcome of the 2020 election results. >> that's i think the key point to stay focused on here robber in, betsy is the entire project, from the president on down was to overturn a free and fair election and installed loser of the, winner especially by whatever means at his disposal, the question that sort of is called by this reporting, and i think the committee will look to, is how much operational for
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knowledge of the actual storming of the capitol existed, and who might have been a party that. betty woodruff swan and robert costa, thank you both. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> so much more to come tonight including the amazing director ava duvernay with her new collection, and one of the next house democrats reapplying the call to expel republics republicans from congress in the wake up to the insurrection. we'll be right back. the insurrection we'll be right back. we'll be right back. calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. facing expensive vitamin c creams with dull results? olay brightens it up with new olay vitamin c.
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house sitting members of congress maybe possibly implicated in the big planning of january six, those members are still in congress right now, many of them are still out there propagating the lie that the election was, stolen others around the floor of the house of representatives starting fights. like when last meet according to congressman jamie lashing, marjorie taylor greene of georgia, screamed at congressman liz cheney of wyoming, upon the floor vote to hold steve bannon in contempt, there's a lingering question here that what are we doing, here what are we doing about this. yesterday congresswoman alexandria cortez, suggested any member of congress that helped plot the attack, must be expelled. there is a resolution in congress to investigate and expel members who helped incite the erection, it's 54 cosponsors, including our next. guest democrat from, new york one of the original -- and he joins me now. it's good to have you
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congressman,, there is a key distinction and i don't want to slate this tooth, and but i think it's worth talking. about congresswoman andrea cortez, uses planning in that tweets, cori bush's resolution that you are a part of his well, says insight, to your mind is that threshold already been cleared? in terms of incitements? by members of congress? >> chris, it's great to be on your show. you know, there is a fine point, and i think that it's why it's so important to conduct the investigation, that cori bush and so many other my colleagues, called for earlier this year. i appreciate the reporting done by rolling stone, there obviously needs to be further investigation. in this was the entire point of the select committee. which we hope to be done on a bipartisan basis earlier this year, but we cannot get enough support for my republican colleagues in the united states senate to do a simple bipartisan investigation and what happened to january six, that's why you're seeing
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democrats lead the, way issue subpoenas that are uncovering day-by-day that kind of information that we are seeing reported and rolling stone. >> but, expulsion from congress, the 14th amendment allows for it because obviously they were dealing with the idea of essentially traitors of the country, insurrectionist serving in congress, how that's contemplated in stipulated in the 14th amendment, you know, expulsion from congress is obviously an incredibly dramatic, step it's been contested in front of the supreme court, take me to your thinking and what that threshold would should be. how seriously should we think about that is a remedy? >> we should think about it very seriously, let's be, clear january six was an attempt to overthrow the federal government, to stop the certification of that free and fair presidential election, last november, and of course, it was an event, a violent insurrection, that nearly took my life in the lives of so many of my colleagues, and of course staff persons at the capitol, including the capitol police. we have to make sure we take
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this very seriously. i realize it's been a few months since it's happened, but it is no less serious today than it was on january six, itself. we are learning through this investigation by the select committee, and increasingly through public reporting on that investigation, is that, the folks who tried to kill us on january, six came dangerously close to doing, so of course, but also came dangerously close to overthrowing the federal government, expulsion has to be on the table. it is one of the most severe consequences, if not the most severe consequence that congress can engage in, and it is i think appropriate in such an instance. >> what is the temperature of capitol hill right now in this, question i've been interviewing members of congress, and it was so raw after january six, there was this sort of, fracas over the metal detectors on the floor. and there were these sort of incidents, these world wrestling incidents, by certain members of the republican caucus, confronting members.
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what things like they are now as this hangs over all of your interactions? >> the fact is chris, it's been a tense environment, for the duration of this year. many of us, as your earlier guest noted, have been suspicious of our republican, colleagues who we know from their public, statements and general behavior, we're at a minimum support of what happens. on january six. the question, is in what ways did they provide support. did they indeed plan or help plan that violent insurrection? and so i think that's why you're seeing a lot of folks say, we would not be surprised if this reporting by rolling stone, turned out to be true. and it's why the select committee has to continue to do its important work. we have to get to the bottom of, this to ensure it never happens again, if we don't have a democracy moving forward, then we cease to be the united states of america. and we know ourselves as. >> congress men, newly elected and serving in new york, thank
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you so much, thank you. >> a stunning new report by how much facebook knew about the ways it radicalized users, and how quickly it can happen. we have the story, and the reporter joins me next. and the reporter joins me next
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carol smith signed up for facebook. according to a profile, she was a politically conservative mud there from north carolina. such was interested in politic, parenting, and christianity. and she followed accounts for fox news and donald trump. nbc news reports that those smith had never expressed interest in conspiracy theories, and just two days facebook was recommending she joined groups dedicated to qanon, a sprawling and baseless conspiracy theory and movement that claimed trump was secretly saving the world from a cabal of pedophiles and saint in this. but it didn't end there, smith didn't follow the recommended qanon group, but whatever algorithm facebook was using to determine how she should engage
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with the platform pushed ahead the same. within one, week smith speed was full of groups and pages that had violated facebook's own rules including those against hate speech and disinformation. >> that's all really bad, but it gets worse. because carole smith isn't real. her account was created by a researcher employed by facebook, who was specifically studying hospice book misinform's and polarizes its users. the company knew what it was doing. it knew, they were driving people to those extreme viewpoints and they knew it years ago. and a senior reporter for nbc news who brought carroll story to our attention is, brandi and she joins me now. , brandi brandy zadrozny take us there and now and what was it based on and what was the researchers trying to do in creating these profiles. >> yes, hey chris. this was a -- one up tens of thousands of
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documents that we have been pouring over the last three weeks. as part of a consortium with 17 other news organizations looking at the documents that whistleblower frances haugen has handed over to the sec, and congress. a lot of this, a lot of these documents are the basis of those blockbusters wall street journal's that we saw. so we have been pouring over these documents. this is one of many examples of internal research that we saw genius researchers really inside facebook, which i -- am phds really know their stuff have been doing to sound the alarm. to facebook's product divisions and facebook's features, and facebook executives to say that you are causing harm on your platform. now, also with this highlighted it's that this was in the summer of 2019. now it wasn't until october of 2020 that facebook said, hey, we are going to take you on down. they are actually quite dangerous. this is after several violent
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incidents including some shootings. so it's not like it was any mystery to them. we know now that they knew for over a year this was a violent conspiracy theory. driving on this platform. through its own recommendation algorithm many waited and waited, until a month before the election to call it quits. >> so, i want to ask a very finally force question that i've been mulling on as a renter story. and let me see if i could articulate this specifically. so the algorithm is predicting that this woman with this profile would like this qanon stuff, right? and it keeps pushing it towards or, even when she doesn't definitely say yes get me into that group. but it somehow feels as though the algorithm is correct? they have her pegged as the kind of person who might be q curious. i am trying to get it. at one level is the algorithm doing the work, and it will level is the work being done by peoples nested preferences and trust relationship external to facebook? >> yes, that is a very well
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worded question. earlier this year, i think about a lot because -- facebook's vp of global comes, made this block force where he basically said it takes two to tango. and basically, it's almost like to me facebook is pulling these people across the dance floor. and when they finally get them on the dance floor, hey, dancing is pretty fun. so you relent and you join these groups. it is hard to say sort of chicken or a care. but the fact is that even people who didn't get it at first or didn't want to be a part of these groups at first slowly made the transition over. and for what it's worth, facebook does have this really interesting project going on called project dribble. and it is named for the 17th century inventor who invented the first navigable summary. so you can get the metaphor. and his diving deep to find out how did these people get in these facebook groups.
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how do they get to qanon. is it a crunchy mom skirt, what is this third degree of separation. that really pours people into these rabbit holes. and can they, these researchers task with understanding, can we somehow cover up or turn down the algorithm on those initial rabbit holes and maybe fix it that way? it's a really interesting research project. but as we know about recent research projects, they don't translate to any policy. >> that to me is striking in many ways. damning about so much as a reporting including this which is. one we're seeing a consistent theme a recent election of facebook precisely the same concern of public reporting. about the nature of the tools, about essentially doing whatever it is the most engagement even at the salt of -- and that that is exactly what the research is looking at what the reporting are heading outside, and the pr people are saying you're being crazy. and facebook's own people are
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running their own experiments and saying that we have a problem here. >> yes, the first step that i did when i got all of these documents is i meet a list of all the researchers that i had been talking to for the last half decade, who had been calling these warning signs and been calling the platform, especially for the recommendation. and, i got one stanford researcher on the phone and i was looking over these documents with her, and she was so angry. because you're exactly right. facebook comes and gaslights us for years saying that that's not happening on the platform. you really can't say that. that's not fair. it's actually quite nice for your grandchildren. and they knew the whole time, they knew the whole time. >> brandy zadrozny great reporting and thank you for sharing with us tonight. >> in. >> coming up her new -- and a national reckoning each parked in the five years since he took the heat. do not go anywhere.
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duvernay joins me just ahead.
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the dallas independent school district is among the largest in the country. serving nearly 150,000 students employing 120,000 staff members. when they last months, many dallas teachers will go up to an email, asking them to, rat out their colleagues, to promote so-called critical race theory. and what's the email referred to as, predatory gender fluidity. the wright has turn critical race theory into a kind of catch all term, that's teaching them just about anything about racial hierarchy and slavery in this, country the daily beast obtained a copy of the email, some by a group calling itself, save texas kids. and calling for teachers to snitch on each other, they say, quote the games rigged against kids parents and teachers who want to do the right. thing but with your help it doesn't have to be. we've been seeing stories like this all over the, country
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people emboldened by officials, like those in texas, where an anti critical race theory law, went into effect. organizing groups to go around naming and purging those they disagree with. save texas kids cloaks this is a fight for their children, claiming liberal edge you -- have decided to brainwash our children. now that same, group has blasted another email, to educators, if you thought last month was bad, this ones actually worse. it landed in teachers in boxes on, friday's says thanks to, you we have received multiple reports of illegal critical race theory incorporated into orientation materials for school staff, at dallas independent school, district it's unacceptable. for staff to be taught to treat kids differently, based on their race or ethnicity. as the district as well a, where this is expressly prohibited by texas law, we will be demanding a full and complete investigation. unfortunately there are some teachers who are angry, were shining a light on their illegal activities.
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we want to mention one such teacher. and they named the teacher. for not only slandering members of our crew, but also violating texas law through her admitted instruction, that the legal critical race theory, specifically. she made an assignment out of reading and critically analyzing our letter from last month. >> that's against the? law >> we are thick skins and don't mind criticism, but this was not criticism. this is a clear attack to adopting a children of the polar ideology. we are filing a grievance against this teacher and we demand that she is immediately terminated. so far the dallas independence golden state has not commented on this last. email but it is in my opinion, having read the email, creepiest hell. this kind of targeted attack on teachers is rooted in the right-wing freak out about children learning, the real history of our country. in the history of racial oppression and hierarchy. it's enduring a power today. you can argue that the contemporary modern movement,
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fight over, this over this terrain specifically, his really sparked in part by the former quarterback for the san francisco 49ers, caroline kaepernick, and his kneeling protest at the national anthem. to highlight police brutality and racial justice. now a filmmaker ava duvernay has been working on a new drama series, about his life experience that led him to take the actions that he took. ava duvernay joins me next. ava duvernay joins me next ava duvernay joins me next lac lyriq. it's a sunny day. nah, a stormy day. classical music plays. um uh, brass band, new orleans. ♪ ♪ she drives hands free... along the coast. make it palm springs. ♪ cadillac is going electric. if you want to be bold, you have to go off-script. experience the all-electric cadillac lyriq.
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when our most current era of racial reckoning and backlash to that reckoning begin, it's a program illegal feature of american life since the dawn of the country. but i would say the events of 2014 were pretty big part of a memory. that's the year the police officer shot and killed 18 year old michael brown ferguson missouri. that shooting was also a huge protests, in that city but also across the country. and the protests was also part
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of what inspired than quarterback of that, san francisco 49ers, to remain seated during the national anthem during the 2016 preseason. he explained, quote, i am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that impresses black people and people of color. to me, this is bigger than football it would be selfish on my part to look the other. wait there are bodies in the streets and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder. >> kaepernick started getting backlash for sitting, including from of former nfl player, named nick boyer, who also serves -- kaepernick reached out to him and boyer suggested taking a knee instead of sitting. >> in my opinion and my experience, kneeling never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. i mean, people kneel when they get knighted. you knew when you propose to your wife and you take a need to pray. and soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brothers grave to pay respects. so i thought, if anything, besides standing that was the most respectful. but of course that's just my
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opinion. >> aught of the kaepernick started kneeling, the practice was quickly by other players in the league in grievance famously for presidential candidate donald trump among many others. pumpernickel not play again after the end of the 2016 season, filed agreement claimed the legal shutting him out. now netflix-limited serious, calling in black and white held by award-winning. explored his early life in kaepernick's own narrative. >> growing up with my parents, i assume that their privilege of. mine >> here too good. >> fun things. >> yeah i'm good too, things. >> i was in for a rude awakening. >> what's up with kaepernick? >> the hair. >> something flying out the back of his head. >> it's unacceptable. >> you're just gonna have to prove them. wrong >> why am i always the one who has to prove them wrong? >> sometimes i just feel uncomfortable. >> jim of colin. >> i couldn't rebel because i
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didn't know how. >> but now trust your power. >> love your black news. you will know who you are. >> ever duvernay directed the first episode along with all the present a scene of kaepernick, she also has a new traumatic series called shiver on her own network. ava duvernay, joins us now. >> thank you i'm happy to be here. >> it's such a fascinating way of doing this project. and to me it was great because i've been wanting to hear from him. [laughs] >> here is this person who this remarkably seismic thing from this perfect, and has largely not give an interview. how did the project come together to begin with? >> i think it's in line with the way that he's been expressing himself with his very selective, in some ways, obscuring his main point, purposely to let people kind of have the dialogue without pushing his narrative. this is the reason why he
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purposely set up to be in my early. let's don't want to speak directly to what's happening right now. but we're talking about the early life in the foundation where this all started. and when we first approached me about something i was interested in, what do i do with a famous person's childhood story, that's kind of not my thing. [laughs] >> but as i started to hear his stories and all the micro aggression and all the little things that make up something that eventually becomes an icon in american culture -- it became really fascinating to use his life and the springboard into larger conversation about race, class, clash, representation, identity, all that great stuff. so we collaborated, and through that he was able to speak and express himself. >> as we showed in that little clip, i mean, he has white parents, he's growing up in a. -- >> adoptive parents. >> yes adoptive parents. he's growing up in a universe that is --
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a new kind of get a sense of this incredible art about this person who sort of been on this journey for a very young. age >> yes it's remarkable to think about where he started, and where he is now. how did that boy, a biracial kid, adopted by white parents, move from wisconsin dairy county, to california. predominately light athlete. and an athlete, that is something to be. said that is somebody who is following the rules and staying within an institution. three different ones within a high-level. >> and when you're completing at the level that he's competing at that is all you're doing. >> no. >> athletes at that level which we should say, he's incredible. >> yes he's doing sports at that high level. that is a kind of training that kind of aptitude for staying in line. that is what we teach our athletes to be right in these american sport institution. for that, for someone to break out of that, into what he is
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doing now is remarkable. and that is what this interrogates. >> and that point i think the context specifically football, we just saw these emails come out and he's saying all kinds of bigoted things about different groups of people, there is a quote particularly about kaepernick that says, f-word, there is a sense of that -- particularly. even through all the major sport cultures is one of the models have been freighted with reactionary instincts >> yes, straight-up racism. yes absolutely. he is so steeped in that and i feel like this piece in laying the foundation in who he is before he even gets to the point where he breaks out. i mean this does not even get into college football. this is starting with the very
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formative early years where you are becoming how you will be. and that for many people, color people who are outside of the box, outside of the culture, these little micro aggressions, these are the things that just feel like paper cuts are loomed as large in the formation of construction of who we are. as larger societal institutional issues. and i think for me, someone who is often analyzing and interrogating race and class in my work, the idea that we can look at the small infractions, right, and just see how much that is a nest of what becomes the rest of who we are. that is just interesting. >> there is kaepernick's kneeling which is this kind of -- you've got all of a sudden this thing has been in everyone's household now across the country. the awkward chatter [laughs] >> national anthem --
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and we've seen several rounds now of racial justice protests and backlash. we are going through one of those backlashes now with this attack on critical race theory. and as someone who i think, so much of your work is about basically critically encountering rays through the work you do, i am curious what you make of that. >> it's ridiculous. it's pedestrian. i think it's also pretty expected in the continuum of the idea that progress can be stopped, right? it may be slowed down. but it can never be boarded and ended. so i saw governor iv >> yes governor ivy from alabama. >> this is been banned, learning these things have been banned forever. we're gonna teach our things to return. right yes good luck with. that so my place we are
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thinking about race to push against the pavilions, it's forward-thinking people, and i was talking to a friend the other day who was saying, what have you learned in school anyway about being black people, about being indigenous people, about beating mexican, latin people. anyone who is not in a dominant culture. you learn outside of the school. and we're talking about critical race theory. we're talking about white children learned about the rest of us. that is what these protests are about. i won't even say protests. but when you really look at what people of color have been taught in school, nothing about ourselves and yet we are educated by our families, by communities, by our own interests. so, that will continue. that will continue, so all this talk is just talk. and like you said it's a backlash to something larger. >> packer nick and interviews that i've seen with him talks about his own journey in self
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education, in books that he has not read before, and things that he might have been interviewed. >> that is the case for truly, not just conscious people of color, but just in general. even white folks who think outside of what has been put in front of them, you have to learn outside of school, right? you have to watch the film. or talk to someone who has experienced it. or travel, walk a mile and someone else's shoes. or read. that will continue, this will not be stopped, and all of this is just a little bit hysteria. >> there is also, in some ways to would i keep coming back to, these fights are because it's real things at stake. at some level, what people in about this country's history, or what stories they are told, or stories teachers tell them, are going to be the site of political conflict. in any iteration of any society anywhere particularly the society grows more [inaudible]
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. >> i agree. i just think that the conversation excludes the kind of education that black and brown kids have in this country. it really privileges the idea that this is something that can't be taught to a certain kind of people because it's risky and dangerous, and how dare you jeopardize our children pure mind with this race stuff. it's wrong, don't do it. i'm going to have teachers telling each other. >> that is what they're doing. >> that is specifically us like according to white children. >> that is what i'm saying, you're leaving out their entire periods, and -- >> the vast majority of children in the top ten metro areas in the public school system. >> yeah. so that's why it's a little hysterical. and we spent so much time talking about. it we've given them so much. >> do you think that the kinds of stories that you can tell, whether it's netflix, on tv, or movies has gotten bigger. why didn't scope over you'd say the last 5:10 years?
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>> it's interesting because you're talking about focusing and i remember when ferguson was happy seeing, when we talk about colin kaepernick, and that was right around the time i was working on 13th. when they see us, we're in the midst of trump and these things they were made before the moment. each of those moments. somehow they seem to line up. so, i wouldn't say that each moment instigated the ability to make the thing. but there is something i think moving in the area of the last ten years that allows a filmmaker, like me, that is interested in approaching these kind of subject matter the ability to deal with a bit more flexibility than filmmakers before me. >> ava duvernay, it's so great to have you here. come back next. time >> that is all in thank you so much, i >> thanked it
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home to join us this hour so tomorrow president biden is gonna be in virginia campaigning in the governor's race the governor is going to elect a new going to be in virginia campaigning in the governor's race there. virginia is going to elect a new governor a week from tomorrow. it will either be democrat terry mcauliffe, for whom president biden is campaigning tomorrow, or it will be republican glenn youngkin, who is endorsed by donald trump. polls in virginia show as of now, it is a tight race. as a matter of odds and history and statistics, the democrats really have their work cut out for them in this race. over the course of my lifetime, and i'm old. i was born in 1973. i know, right? over the course of my entire life, every time a new president has been elected to the white house, the other party wins the virginia governor's race the following year.

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