tv The Sunday Show With Jonathan Capehart MSNBC October 24, 2021 7:00am-9:00am PDT
this sunday, we're watching a white house in action, with breaking news this morning that president biden is set to meet with senator joe manchin and senate majority leader chuck schumer this morning in delaware. and after a jam-packed week of legislative meetings featuring lawmakers of all congressional -- of all stripes, congressional democrats and president biden are signaling that a final agreement on the build back better act could, could come as soon as this week. >> we had a very positive meeting this morning. i'm very optimistic. >> but you feel like a deal is close? >> i think it's very possible. >> very possible. that is, of course, if holdout democratic senators manchin and kyrsten sinema get onboard. senator sinema has made it crystal clear she won't raise either corporate or individual income tax rates to pay for biden's plan, prompting more progressive democrats to consider closing the funding gap through other means, like taxing
the assets rather than the incomes of billionaires. all of this is happening as the president prepares to head to europe later this week for a series of high-level engagements, including the cop26 climate summit in glasgow, g-20 in rome, and a meeting with the pope in vatican city. meaning that at the risk of sending the president abroad empty-handed, the pressure for lawmakers to work fast could not be greater. and the capitol hill infrastructure stalemate is but one of this administration's many moving targets. in a bipartisan vote on thursday, the house of representatives voted to hold former trump adviser steve bannon in criminal contempt of congress for defying a subpoena from the january 6th select committee. the vote was 229 to 202 with nine republicans clearly voting their conscience. now, it's up to attorney general merrick garland and maybe van grand jury to decide if bannon
will face criminal charges. >> the department of justice will do what it always does in such circumstances. we'll apply the facts and the law and make a decision consistent with the principles of prosecution. >> congress shot down bannon's specious claim of executive privilege as his ridden for not testifying and now ex-president donald trump is invoking it, too. suing this week to block the national archives from handing over any documents relating to his presidency sought by the january 6th select committee. yes, the former guy says congress' subpoena is invalid and is claiming that he can somehow overruling the actual president's decision to turn over the documents. the legality of such claims are dubious, but buckle up for a legal battle that could take years to resolve. meanwhile, the supreme court made a stunning announcement friday, saying that it will hear a pair of legal arguments challenging texas' reaggressive abortion ban with oral arguments
set for november 1st. notably, the court did not, did not put the law on hold. that means abortion is still illegal and inaccessible for millions of women in texas. and underneath all of this, the fight to safeguard voting rights and free and fair elections, the foundation of our democracy, rages on, despite the disappointing setback for democrats on wednesday. every last one of joe manchin's so-called republican friends voted to block his voting rights compromise bill from even being debated. it was the third voting rights bill republicans killed this year, with virtually all bipartisan options exhausted, manchin must now decide what's more important. the future of ballot access or the filibuster. >> when you're in the united states senate and you're pyatt and you have 50 democrats, every one is a president. >> and joining me now is one of
those presidents, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. senator warren, welcome to the sunday show. >> thank you! it's good to be here with you. >> so i have to read you this headline we have from mother jones, which i think is a great first question to you. the headline is, is kyrsten sinema ready to senator elizabeth warren. the senator's hard lines could get democrats to put new taxes on the mega-rich. so is senator sinema ready to listen you? i know you have been meeting with each other? >> so think of it this way. we're going to have to figure out how we pay for the things we want to do. child care, home and community-based care, expanded health care, and a big thwack on fighting climate, fighting back. and the axis that i've been arguing for for a long time now is that we need a tax on the billionaires, we need a tax on
the billionaires. and we need the irs to go after the billionaire tax cheats. those three things are how we can form the core of the revenues we immediate to be able to do the things we need to do for the american people. and i love it. >> okay! you love it. but i noticed that you didn't say whether senator sinema is listening to you. because, clearly, on one of those three things you mentioned, she isn't. she is dead set against raising the corporate income tax rate and raising individual rates. are you ready to use that battle -- >> jonathan, no, no, no, let me go back again and say it. what i'm talking about here is a tax on billionbillionaires. it's not about raising the rates. look at someone like jeff bezos. what does he have in income?
$83,000 a year. it's less than a boston public school. raising the rate is not going to cause jeff bezos to pay a penny more. what we need is we need a tax that focuses on the wealth of the richest americans. and that's what senator sinema and i have been talking about. same sort of thing on corporations. it's not that i don't want to raise rates. we may have different views on raising rates, but listen to the heart of it. the heart of it is about making sure that the corporations who aren't paying anything -- look at amazon. declares $10 billion in book profits, pays nothing in taxes. it's making sure they pay. and that's what the bill that senator kaine and i have, and that we've been talking about with senator sinema. so this is about making sure we get, in effect, a wealth tax, a minimum tax, a book tax on giant corporations, and then empower the irs to go after the tax
cheats. >> and that was my question about corporations. i get what you're saying in terms of billionaires. but let me read you a quote from house ways and means chairman neal, talking about all of this discussion about taxing -- taxing the wealth. he writes, when you do rates -- because he's in favor of raising the rates. when you do rates, they're efficient and easily implemented, unlike taxing this and taxing that. rates are simple by nature. people understand them. doesn't he have a point? >> look, rates are simple. but the problem is, they don't reach what we need to reach. raising the income tax rate does to the reach jeff bezos. it is only when we look at jeff bezos' wealth and say, you've got to figure out -- we've got to figure out a way to make him pay based on that, that we actually have him paying a fair
share. look, in america, we have said for a long, long time now, when you get richer, we're going to ask you to pay some money on that increase that you got. only, there's a distortion in that, because we say, on wealth, your wealth can grow and grow and grow, and we'll let you defer the taxes until some point way down the line, when you actually sell the property. the problem with that is the billionaires have learned how to exploit that so they pay virtually nothing, year after year after year in taxes. so what we're saying is, hey, look, a tax on the billionaire's wealth and a tax on the billion-dollar corporations that are paying nothing. that helps us build, in effect, from the ground up and says everybody has to pay in this country to keep this country going. >> and to your point, senator warren, as you were speaking, we put a graphic up that showed that there is overwhelming
support to raising taxes on the wealthy. it's 71%, i have it somewhere on one of these sheets. maybe we can put it back up again. what i found very interesting -- there it is. tax -- support for raising taxes on wealthiest 2% to pay for build back better, all voters. 71%. 86% of democrats support it, but what's surprising to me is that 50% of republicans support raising taxes on the wealthiest 2%. senator warren, given where the conversation is right now, which is basically square to where you have been, even when you were running for president, in terms of taxing the wealth, how likely is it that this, dare say, compromise in terms of raising revenue for build back better, will actually meet -- you know, get the support of senators manchin and sinema, so that it can -- so that build back better can actually get done?
>> i think it's likely. i'm pushing hard, but the key is, the american people get it. they get that the system is rigged. teachers and nurses and firefighters are just tired of paying more in taxes than jeff bezos pace. this is one of those moments of reconciliation. and the folks who have to be brought along are the folks sitting in washington. the elected officials. and that's what i think we've got our toes right on the line , to get done. >> let's talk about some other issues, since i have you here. and according to the president of the united states, you're one of 50 presidents in the senate, in the evenly divided senate. voting rights. for the third time, all 50 democrats voted to allow debate on the freedom to vote act, for the third time, all of the republicans -- or i should say, no republican voted to allow that bill to come to the floor for debate and for a simple majority vote.
where are you on the filibuster and what do you think the president should do when it comes to the filibuster? >> look, i think what the republicans have done is shameful. to say that we can't even debate a bill about protecting the vote in america. we can't even debate a bill that would end gerrymandering. we can't even debate a bill that would at least push back against dark money. i think what they're doing is wrong and as i say, shameful. but i've long been in favor of getting rid of the filibuster. and i think that the need to protect the vote is like the sharpest example of why we need to get rid of the filibuster. we need to get rid of it here, because this is our democracy that hangs in the balance. every american citizen has a right to vote and to get that vote counted. gerrymandering takes away the power of the vote. we need to get rid of it and we need to push back against the
influence of dark money. our whole democracy hangs in the balance. we've got to get this done. it is far more important than protecting some old rule of the senate known as the filibuster. >> i want to talk to you about what's happening in texas. but i want you to have a listen to texas state representative, jasmine crockett on what she says, you know, looking to the senate, to -- she's looking to the senate to step up. have a listen. >> what i am looking forward to is for aggression out of our u.s. senate. we've got to expand the court and we've got to get rid of the filibuster. these are the only ways that we're going to start to have some semblance of normalcy in this country. the fact that the supreme court is acting like this is an issue that we need to vacillate over, that they're acting like roe v. wade didn't take place, like, before i was ever like born. that is a problem. >> and of course, she's talking about the supreme court, what
it's doing vis-a-vis that super restrictive texas anti-abortion law, that they won't even, you know, put the brakes on while they take these arguments on november 1st. your reaction to what the court is doing here? >> look, the court has signaled 40 different ways that it is an extremist court, out of step with the american people, and that it's willing to line up and take a shot at roe v. wade. now, whether they'll get rid of it entirely or just let the states continue to chip at it, come on, they've given us every possible signal. but for me, what that means is that it's time for congress to step up. the american people strongly support roe v. wade. about 70% of americans say that they want that to remain the law of the land. we don't need the supreme court to do that. the united states congress could do that. when 70% of the people support that, by golly, i think we ought to get out there and get it
done. we can do that. it's another place where the filibuster creates a problem and another reason why i am oppose to the filibuster. but we need to place responsibility right now squarely on congress and not let an extremist supreme court take away the rights of people all across this nation and take away abortion rights that have been guaranteed for half a century. >> senator warren, one last question for you. i could sit here all morning and talk to you. i'm very excited that you've come to the show. but last question, senate majority leader, chuck schumer, senator joe manchin, and the president of the united states are going to be meeting this morning in delaware at the president's home. if you were there, what would you tell the fellas in order to get this deal done? >> i would say, let's come together and get this deal done. failure is not an option here. we made promises to the american people and we need to deliver on
those promises. and here's the good news. we've got many of the basic elements. not every single one of the things we wanted, but we've got a lot of them. we've got now a revenue package laid out that says billionaires, giant corporations, and tax cheats are going to have to start paying. and we've said, we're going to start investing in american families. you want people to be able to go back to work, then we're going to make a big investment in child care and home and community-based care. and we're going to say, we can't wait any longer on climate. so let's get this core done, let's do it right, let's get it passed. and let's show the american people what it means to govern, not just for the rich and the wealthy, what it means to govern for all of america. >> key line here, we've got many of the basic elements done. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren, thank you very much for
coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you! it's good to see you. >> all right. coming up, after a third voting rights bill was shot down in the senate this week, it's time for drastic action to protect the vote. voting rights activist melanie campbell joins us live from outside the supreme court. stay with us. from outside the supre emcourt. stay with us ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪
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time. the freedom to vote act, which included popular provisions like making election day a holiday, enacting same-day voter registration and expanding same-day voting was specifically redesigned to gain bipartisan support, and yet not a single republican voted to allow the bill to the floor for a full debate. with the midterm elections a little more than a year away, american democracy really can't afford more inaction. joining me now live from the steps of the supreme court is melanie campbell, president of the national coalition on black civic participation and black women's roundtable. melanie, welcome back to the sunday show. i think one of the last times you were on, you had just been arrested for protesting in favor of voting rights. and now you have been leading a daily protest outside of the supreme court. why?
>> we've been meeting not daily, jonathan, but regularly, if you will. the supreme court is that third level of government and unfortunately it's failing us when it comes to voting rights and protectioning our constitutional rights. there's a symbolism to that. and when you look across the street, you see the congress and on down the street, you see the white house, of course. and so we said we wanted to keep coming back. we started on july 15th, so it's been three months, working with the national council of women and the national action clergy network and so many other organizations across the gamut, standing up for voting rights and also connecting the dots for people to understand if we don't have voting rights protections and freedom to vote, then we also cannot protect our constitutional rights, we cannot protect reproductive rights. right now, we talk about things
like economic justice. to be able to do, from the symbolism and from the determination that we have to win this battle, jonathan. the future of our children really are at stake if we don't have the right to vote. >> melanie, let me have a listen to what the president said on thursday about the issue of voting rights and i'll talk to you on the other side. >> look, this struggle is no longer over who gets to vote or making it eligible for who gets to vote, it's about who gets the count the votes. whether they should count it all. jim crow in the 21st century is now a sinister combination of voter suppression and election subversion. >> melanie, what the president says is not untrue and that the passion with which she talks about voting rights is heartfelt, but what do you want him to do in order to make those
words mean something? >> well, thank you, jonathan. one of the things that i think he said earlier this week is that it's time to deal with the filibuster. and the reality is this congress -- there are 50 democrats who keep voting for voting rights, but 50 republicans who keep voting to not even allow for discussion. we have to change the rules. a process cannot dictate voting rights in this country. it is fundamental to everything that's good about this country. and so to allow partisanship and partisan games to block making sure that people have not just the fundamental right to vote, the thing that he said is real. when you talk about what's going on in the state of georgia, with that law, what's going on in texas, in florida, and many other places across this country, where you have republicans who are -- and i'm nonpartisan, but it's just factual, who are using their
power to disempower voters and really the american people, because it's not -- this is not a black issue, this is a democracy issue. our democracy is under threat. we know about january 6th. there's a lot going on in this country, and voting rights is fundamental. the other thing i want to also lift up, jonathan, is we know what's going on on capitol hill. that's why we're also stepping up for economic justice. things like paid family leave need to be a part of the build back better plan, as well. >> as your t-shirt says, voting rights equal economic justice. one more question for you, melanie, in the less than the minute that i have left. i've been a proponent of having the president of the united states, having president biden deliver his first oval office address by talking about voting rights and the need to reform the filibuster. is that something that you could get behind? is that something you think that he should do? >> i would say with my civil rights colleagues that i work with on a regular basis, we have
been saying, president and all the women that i work with from across the gamut, use all the tools in your toolbox. that includes going to the congress and making a speech to the congress about voting rights. it is fundamental. use every tool in your tool box. president obama -- excuse me, president biden, as well as vice president harris, who's out there. we want you to go -- take it to the streets, as well as into the halls of congress. take it to the people, right? and let those folks interfere. let them not stand up and clap for president biden, if he gets into the congress and talk about voting rights. let's the american people see what they're about right now. those who are against voting rights? >> melanie campbell, thank you so much for coming back to the sunday show from the supreme court. and a reminder, the black women's roundtable has a week of voting rights events, including a walk to the u.s. senate on thursday. later on "the understood show," my one on one with civil
rights giant andrew young. he shares lessons from the past and a hopeful vision for the future. but first, why ending the filibuster is now more important than ever. we'll be right back. w more impot than ever. wel 'lbe right back. tums vs. mozzarella stick when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites regina approaches the all-electric cadillac lyriq. it's a sunny day. nah, a stormy day. classical music plays. um uh, brass band, new orleans. ♪ ♪ she drives hands free... along the coast. make it palm springs. ♪ cadillac is going electric. if you want to be bold, you have to go off-script. experience the all-electric cadillac lyriq. when you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff.ave to go off-script. new zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer
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into, at this moment, the debate on the filibuster, i lose at least three votes right now to get what i have to get done on the economic side of the equation. but i also think that we're going to have to move to the point that we fundamentally alter the filibuster. >> when it comes to voting rights, just so i'm clear, though, you would entertain the notion of doing away with the filibuster on that one issue, is that correct? >> and maybe more. >> maybe more. joining me now is ellie zutnick, spokesperson for "fix our senate." from your vantage point, how significant were the president's remarks there? >> they were a big deal. they were a huge deal. president biden is a longtime supporter of the filibuster, but he clearly understands that there is absolutely no way he's getting republicans with him
with lbgt rights and so much more. the choice that he faces going into the end of this year is reform the filibuster or face another year of gridlock in action, broken promises, and potential political cataclysm come november. this is a big deal despite the filibuster. >> there are a lot of people that are frustrated by the voting rights fight there in the senate, that there have been three votes now, but how -- talk about why having those three votes is very important when it comes to changing minds in the senate. >> absolutely. so we know that there are some democrats who are reluctant to reform the senator. and they need to seefr and over that senator mcconnell and his republican caucus have absolutely no intention of letting anything pass. senator mcconnell worked on a voting rights bill personally.
50 senators onboard. it was filibustered again and again and again. so now it is crystal clear that there are not ten republicans. we haven't seen one republican, certainly won't see ten, willing to work with them on. so it's protect our democracy or protect this jim crow filibuster. that choice is now clear. >> you used the word "cataclysmic." the other thing that is cataclysmic is the debt ceiling. talk about why filibuster reform is really essential for the upcoming debt ceiling fight? >> sure. just last month, we saw senator mcconnell and his republican caucus threaten to tank the economy to the first time refuse to work with democrats, something that has been done time and again to increase the debt limit. he caved last time. he gave a short-term extension,
but he made clear, he sent a letter to senator schumer and president biden making it clear that he will not cave again. senator schumer has said that he is not going to be bullied, he is not going to do this through reconciliation. it's going to come up for an up or down vote. or democrats will finally take this filibuster away as a weapon that senator mcconnell can use to tank the economy. it is not sustainable to be lurching from crisis to crisis, because senator mcconnell has this tool that he can use to tank the economy wherever he wants, wherever it comes up for a vote. so this is -- it's going to be a big moment over the next two months. >> you know, we talked about senators who have changed their minds, and i want people to hear senator angus king, an independent senator from maine, what he has to say about his views on the filibuster. have a listen. >> you can get 41 votes out of the current senate, which was enough to block any legislation. and if you take the states that
those 41 senators represent, add all the population together, you get 24% of the american people. so the situation we're in now is that 24% of the american people have an effective veto over anything that 76% of the american people think it's important public policy. i don't think that squares with democratic theory. >> and so that is a very compelling argument there, that senator king is laying out. and this is from a man who was against doing anything about the filibuster, up until recently. >> that's right. and i think that's one of the biggest developments we've seen over this past year. that this is no longer just a progressive issue. moderates like senator king, senator klobuchar, senator tester and many others, including now president biden, understand that there is nothing moderate about allowing a tiny minority of senators to block the will of the majority. there is nothing moderate about
gridlock, dysfunction, and a politicized senate rule that just isn't working anymore. so it's been so encouraging to see over this past year senators like senator king, klobuchar, tester, and many other moderates come onboard and realize that the filibuster needs to be reformed. it's broken. it's not working. even if you supported it before, it's simply not working and needs to be fixed. >> i'm going to be talking about the filibuster in my by line at the end of the show, but until then, ellie, thank you very much for coming to the understood show. coming up, my interview with civil rights icon and former ambassador to the united nations, andrew young. we talk about a pivotal moment he was a part of that led to the voting rights act of 1965. s act. dry eye symptoms keep driving you crazy? inflammation in your eye might be to blame. [inflammation] let's kick ken's ache and burn into gear! over the counter eye drops typically work by lubricating your eyes and may provide temporary relief. those drops will probably pass right by me.
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ambassador, georgia congressman, and civil rights icon who fought along dr. king and helped draft the voting rights act of the 1965. this week, i had the great privilege of sitting down with ambassador young in atlanta. have a listen. >> i want to take you back to the last time we saw each other, a gathering of civil rights veterans and you told two stories, two anecdotes that have stuck with me. the first one is relevant to today's politics. it's the one of you and doctor king coming back from the nobel peace prize, landing in washington and having a meet with president johnson. what was the purpose of that meeting? >> the purpose of the meeting was to try top to help president johnson to see that we needed to move ahead with civil rights. well, we had just passed the civil rights act july 2nd in
that same year. and that had been a massive mobilization of the entire business community and it had really been almost five years of work. and so to think that we could go immediately into voting rights, for me being rational, it just wasn't so. and so i, i said to dr. king, well, you know, he really doesn't have the power to go back to the congress this quick. he said, what are we going to do? he said, we're going to get the president in power. and i thought he was joking, because -- i said, you moorhouse men are so arrogant. i said, here you are, 5'6" tall
and you're going to get no money, no political power and we're going to get the president some power. >> and the way you got the president some power, ultimately, was -- >> two days later, when we got back to atlanta, mrs. amelia boynton from selma showed up. she got beat up with john lewis on the bridge and so, you couldn't argue with her. >> right. >> and that was all part of what ultimately would become the power that president johnson needed, what, five months after bloody sunday in august of '65, the voting rights act passed, and he signed it into law. does it burn you up that we're still talking about voting rights, 56 years after bloody sunday, after the passage of the voting rights act in '65? >> well, it doesn't bother me
because i think all my life, i have known that freedom is a constant struggle. and that you never get your rights and then sit back and have an opportunity to enjoy them. america gives you the freedom to struggle for your rights and there are always several sides. so freedom is a constant struggle. and i guess we should be doing a lot more, but president biden has really woven into this legislation for this congress a very interesting things, which
dr. king talked about before he died. the fact that we will have day care for children, that there's a basic human rights component that will give poor children money for education and clothe ing, regardless of their race, creed, or color. that if you need it, we will provide it and there is a support network for the children and the youth of our society, regardless of race, creed, or color, that's being promoted by the biden administration, that is almost exactly what martin luther king dreamed about. >> the second anecdote that you
shared with me at sunny lands was a very sort of prophetic saying that, you said dr. king would say to you and all of his close confidants. he would say, most of us won't make it to 40, but those of us who do will live to be 100. >> no, he said -- he didn't say we would live to be 100. he said, we've got to struggle -- we have to hope we make it to a hundred, because it's going to be at least that long a struggle. he was saying that -- well, in the words of the song "i don't feel no ways tired" it's -- he didn't bring us this far to leave us. that god would be with us in this struggle, but that the reform and redemption -- and i
like to think of redemption of the united states of america, because we are a blessed nation, that god expects a lot more of than i think almost any other nation. and i think the presence of us african-americans and the immigrants that come here struggling, we see colin powell's death today, and we see him as the son of immigrants from jamaica, rising to the top of the middle military and being secretary of state, that's the strength and blessing of america. that's where america gets its soul force. >> andrew young, former ambassador to the united
nations, former mayor of atlanta, presidential medal of freedom honoree, thank you so much for coming to "the sunday show." >> well, thank you very much for keeping us awake on sunday morning. with always a creative view of the news of the world. >> thank you. >> you make us proud. >> still trying to make me cry on sunday. thank you again to the great andrew young for spending time with "the sunday show." coming up, aunt gloria is back. her take on what the president need to do to get his build back better plan in motion for the american people. that's next. stay with us. american people. that's next. stay with us ♪
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and kyrsten sinema. a number of social programs will need to be cut in order to win their votes. >> look, it's all about compromise. >> are those compromises palatable to the american people is the question i'm pondering? who better to share the way she sees it than aunt gloria. aunt gloria, so great to see you again. welcome back to the sunday show. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> all right. >> the floor is yours. what do you make of all of this sausage making here in washington trying to get the build back better plan, the president's plan, you know, onto the floor and for a vote by the senate? >> it's frustrating. i think it took too long to try to get republicans online. they're not going to vote for anything and i really think we need a win right now. get people motivated before the election and keep, you know, the democrats in power. but what he's got to do is move
faster. you know, it's got to be don't waste time with the republicans. the democrats need to fall in line. we cannot allow the republicans to take over again and the way he's going to get more power is to go after the republican constituents. they're controlled by trump. the legislators, they're just there. they have no power. trump doesn't respect them and it's a time that he goes for what he wants and biden needs to just make sure he gets this win. we need it. >> so you know, president biden, senator joe manchin and senate majority leader chuck schumer are meeting for breakfast at the president's house in delaware. if there was a fourth chair given to you at that breakfast, what would you tell those three
men? >> i would tell them are they here for democrats or there for themselves? i think manchin is there for himself. look, we need this win. if we don't, we could lose all power and i think that's the key. right now democrats need to stay in power if we going to see change. so give him whatever he wants. i'm sure there's something else he wants and we'll approve this, but right now he needs to get on board. progressives need to get on board. >> so, aunt gloria, do you care about the price tag or do you care about what's actually in the bill or do you just flat out no matter the provisions, no matter the price tag, just get something done to give the president a win? >> i think we need something to give the president a win and i truly believe the price tag
shouldn't matter because you need to tax the rich. if people got money to go up to space, they can afford to pay more taxes. that's a key. people have got to pay their own way. if i'm paying more taxes than some guy going up in space, that's a problem. >> aunt gloria, every time you come on there is always a pearl of wisdom that you just drop so casually there. what was that, if you've got enough money to go into space, you've got -- say that again because i can't -- >> if you've got enough money to go into space, you've got enough money to pay higher taxes. if i'm paying more taxes than you are, there's a problem. >> aunt gloria, you know, now that covid seems to be, you know, we're getting it under control and folks can travel again and hopefully we'll be able to have folks on set, we going to do this live in person and we going to make you
officially a part of a panel with some big names because you always drop the knowledge. aunt gloria, thank you so much for coming back to "the sunday show." >> you're so welcome, jonathan. thank you. coming up in our next hour, we shed a light on the assault of democracy where it can cause the most damage, at the state level. plus, my all-star panel is ready to weigh in on trump, steve bannon, the governor's race in virginia and much more. don't want to miss it. your smile will always be brilliant. crest 3d white brilliance. 100% stain removal, 24 hour stain resistance to lock in your whitest smile. crest. the #1 toothpaste brand in america.
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welcome back to "the sunday show." i'm jonathan cape heart. republican leaders have repeatedly parroted talking points on the big lie and excused the january 6th insurrection. there are consequences to those words. ross wilbur received racist threats this week after he wrote a column in the des moines register criticizing the republican leaders for prioritizing fieldty to trump over the rule of law. texas governor greg abbott's new
pick for secretary of state is a former trump lawyer who tried to help him overturn legitimate election results in pennsylvania back in 2020. it all goes to show that the real front lines in the battle for democracy are not here in washington, d.c., but in the states. joining me now, david pepper, former ohio democratic party chair and the author of "laboratories of autocracy" and ross wilbur. iowa democratic chair. chair wilbur, let me start with you. just how are you and your family in the wake of the threats you've been getting since speaking your mind? >> thank you so much for letting me be on the show. we're doing fine. still concerned with the hatred
that's being spewed. what happened to me was bad but i just was at a fund-raiser for some county supervisors and at a school board forum, you know, there were some issues there with a group that had showed up so it's, again, the main reason i came forward was just to let people know that this is going on not just around the country. i'd rather be here talking about infrastructure, child care, tax kres dids but here we are. >> senator grassley, senator from iowa put out a statement in response to the lynching threat. racism and threats of violence are never acceptable. the threats against chair wilbur is being investigated. those responsible should be held accountable. we ought to be able to have civil respectful political discussions in this country with our neighbors.
chair wilbur, i mean, is that even possible anymore given the tenor of our politics since june 16th, 2015? >> i heard from, you know, senator grassley, the post, our governor. i've heard specifically from some of my colleagues in the iowa statehouse and saw those tweets. i appreciate the concern, but it takes more than words of condemnation to stop these kinds of threats and fight back against hate. some of the policies that have gone in place even before this and people need to connect the dots that they're contributing to that atmosphere of chaos. our governor signed a bill that increased penalties for people protesting in the streets. if a driver hits someone they can get civil immunity. these are hard to discuss systemic racism.
it's an environment that allows a culture of hate and donald trump really opened pandora's box and republicans are doing nothing to try and put the hatred back into the box. >> in fact, david pepper, in your book you write about how the big lie is animating a lot of things in the statehouses -- picked up the wrong pieces of paper. you write, statehouses have begun to make these lies a central pillar of their legislative work, on everything from energy to vaccines and even spanning into "auditing" of election results. and whether measured in public outcomes, untold lives lost, and rendered wide deep damage. >> we focus on national
television about marjorie taylor greene's and lauren boberts. they're talking. there are people legislating, passing laws that most governors are signing and a lot of them are based on these lies. this pre-dates the big lie, by the way. the most recent one at least is donald trump's. we're talking climate change. we're talking attacks on history. over and over again these very extreme statehouse members who largely live in districts that have been gerrymandered so they can never lose, no accountability, they're legislating off of these lies and breathing the kind of environment that i hate to see what happened to the chairman in iowa, but that's really, you know, almost the status quo in states across this country right now that too often isn't looked at except for every once in a while we'll have a crazy law in texas, talk about it for a couple of weeks, there will be a
lawsuit and then we can back to some other debate in dc. instead of saying, what the heck is happening in statehouses, why have they gotten so crazy and how do we stop it? if we simply take them as a given and we don't try and stop it, history shows us, look at jim crow, those places will win the day if we don't get in the way and stop overseeing. >> we have to talk then about the role race plays in all of this. david pepper, you write in your book, this is a lengthy passage, but the ending is the key point here, when enough pillars protecting democratic governance erode and when enough in power are willing to defy the law autocracy arises. we are close enough that it would be naive to declare this couldn't happen in america. rigged election outcomes, attacks on independent courts, unchecked abuses of power at the highest level. statehouses perfectly positioned to impact elections at all
levels both before and after they happen and the same white working class americans, 60% at least, who fear the rise of a diverse majority expressing strong support for a, quote, strong leader who is willing to break the rules. >> yeah. as you mentioned in your question, you know, there's a history to this. it's happened again and again. we saw it after reconstruction. we saw a real backlash after barack obama was elected. we see it now after african-americans in georgia and michigan really elected joe biden president. you see it this ugly strain of white supremacy rear its head especially at times when it looks like our new diverse majority is going to run the country. and that's what's happening now. it's been building since obama won it. >> right.
>> it began building voter suppression laws in 2010 but the acceleration in the last year is extreme. there are a lot of factors at once but one clearly is this backlash against the rising diverse american majority that clearly elected joe biden president. >> and chair wilburn, i would love for you to hold forth the role of race in everything that we're talking about. >> absolutely. it's not uncommon for people of color serving in a public troel receive racist emails or phone calls, but the reference to lynching, that's what really got me angry. it's been pointed out there's a history of it. last year i thought the five members had a packet and clanhood with a noose and the
caption was the clan was for amateurs. so, again, it's intimidating. my main thing, you know, beyond how difficult it can get people to run for office in general, but then you add race to it and try to make us feel less than human, to try to put us down to lift themselves up. i mean, it's -- it's -- it's tragic. it's -- it leads to chaos and republicans like chuck grassley, like governor reynolds that are saying this is not who we are, but it's out there, and they're wrapping their arms around folks who really are calling for the demise of our democracy. and if it's going to happen to people who are in public roles and people of color, think of the average person that sees this going on, that don't have a support system like i do. if they see people at these truck rallies with signs, dropping the "n" word and people
part of the lgbtq community, all of our diverse communities of color and then they go to the place, you know, where they work or they try to go to the grocery store, try to go to a job interview, you know, they are avenue not going to feel like they're going to have a chance when that is out there. we need people to not be bystanders. we need everyone who is sending the great, tremendous amounts of support, i also need you to downcry this in those public meetings. i need you to get people registered to vote, vote people into office who are not going to embrace people who embrace hate. >> ross wilburn and david pepper, "laboratories of autocracy." thank you both very much for coming to "the sunday show." coming up, my all-star panel is ready to sound off on everything from the build back better plan and the disgraceful
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the build back better agenda, let's see what they're going through. let us ask are we really creating and reinforcing a society that is about allowing people to reach their potential? this is about what we value as a nation, about who we value and i want y'all to know, the president and i value working families. >> vice president kamala harris was in the bronx on friday promoting the build back better package while this morning president biden is meeting with senator joe manchin and majority leader chuck schumer to discuss the nearly $2 trillion legislation, yet another effort to get manchin to yes on this key part of biden's agenda.
joining me now, white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamish and steve schmidt and joan walsh. i wish we had time to turn around my chitchat from aunt gloria. the message she kept hammering home, the president needs a win, democrats need a win otherwise the republicans are going to come back into power. i would love for all of you to just go down the line and react to that. because i do think there is something there among the democratic party faithful. it's like they don't care so much about the sausage making. do you care about the price tag? do you care about the provisions? she's like, just get something done. joan, you go first. joan. >> yeah, i would like to see them get something done. i think they very much have to
get something done for joe biden and to keep their majorities, to have a prayer keeping the house majority next year, jonathan. on the other hand, i'm nervous. climate change legislation, what is that? we know they got rid of the electric grid modernization. what are the climate change provisions? are they serious enough to meet those challenges that we have? so that's one thing. i think it's also unfortunate that there's a huge public support for tax increases, both on the very wealthy and on corporations, on corporations paying their fair share of taxes and i'm not sure what's going to wind up in the bill thanks to senator sinema who doesn't seem to like taxes on corporations. so i still have worries.
>> steve, as you answer the question, i just want to put up on the screen, we have a graphic of what's likely in the build back better plan, what's likely out. but your reaction. >> well, good morning. look, there are three occasions in the last 120 years where the incumbents -- where the incumbent's president's party has picked up seats in a mid-term election. last time it happened in 2002. i have to say listening to this, two things. i think all of the democratic leaders, when you read between the lines from the white house, even with manchin and sinema, everybody understands that they have to pass something here. not to gain benefit but to avoid total ka lamb mitt if i and i don't mean to be critical, maybe
it's a function of the clip that was shown. when the vice president is talking about this, honest to god, someone can come in here and hold a gun to my head and demand to know what's in there and i don't know. this has not been sold well. it's a communications debacle. no one knows what's in it. at the end, i don't think this will have any bearing on the election whatsoever. republicans have had a very good year. they are more radical. they are more extreme, more deeply invested in the big lie. that position is solidified and hardened all over the country. they have been able to advance hundreds of pieces of malaised voting legislation. democrats don't have a strategy to deal with it. you have extremism running rampant at the local level, statehouse level as your last guest talked about. so when you look out a year from
now what's going to happen in the election, it appears to me that democrats are going to lose because they haven't effectively fought back against what is the core issue in the election which is the threat to democracy and the threat to extremists. look, if you're going to spend $3.5 trillion, $2 trillion, you have to be able to articulate at a macro level the massive spending and a once in a generation accomplishment you hope to bring with it. they've just fallen short and we're coming up on the year to the election hour and it's not looking great for them. >> so, yumish, to steve's point, he says he can't tell you what's in the bill. the graphic i put up says what's likely in the bill and what's likely not in the bill simply because we don't -- there's no bill. there's no actual bill. can you bring us up to speed on
where things really are in terms of the negotiation? and is the he can peck takes of a build back better act that the president can get behind, that the senate, all 50 senators support and can be brought to the floor and passed before the president gets on a plane for the summits in europe. >> well, good morning, jonathan. that's a great question but it's a question that every white house reporter and every capitol hill reporter is asking because it's the question of when are you going to actually get this done. when you talk to democrats, they feel very confident that they will have to get this done because it's almost too big to fail at this point. democrats have staked their agenda on this. the democrats have a very slim majority in the house and senate, the average american is saying democrats are in control. what are you going to do about
things? what are you going to try to do to prove to the democratic base that it was worth going out, standing in the rain, doing all of the things that have to get done to vote in the country? and that's going to get harder. what do you have to show the democratic states? terry mcauliffe is saying d.c. democrats, give me something to run on in virginia because we need to run this governor's race. the same thing you can hear from mark warner saying we need to get this done. the president ought to be saying we need a bill right now. my sources teal me the white house, that the white house has been pressing democrats to get a vote for both bills done next week. thaems -- there's a push to get a framework done by next week
for schumer and senator manchin and the president today, they've made it very clear he wants it to be done. this understanding of what the bill is going to be by the end of the month. so it really shows that the democrats are trying to coalesce around this. the urgency is something you just mentioned. the idea democrats haven't been able to get voting reforms back. they need to say we didn't get those things passed. we did get this big transformational bill passed. >> yamish, do you find it as significant as i do that we wake up this morning to find out that joe manchin, chuck schumer are in delaware with the president obviously talking about the build back better plan? shouldn't that be seen as a good sign that an agreement could be coming soon? >> well, it's a sign. i think it's probably a good sign.
but it's a sign more that the president is in negotiations and on a sunday afternoon when he wanted to be chilling, he had to be doing work and having conversations with democrats. he had a pretty candid town hall on thursday when he talked very bluntly about the idea he can't deal with the filibuster because he's going to lose joe manchin's votes. he can't deal with giving people dental care as part of their medicare benefits because senator manchin doesn't like it. he was very clear the issues he had disagreements are things that reporters and me were recording, which is senator manchin and sinema are the ones that decide what goes into this bill. pramila jayapal has hundreds of lawmakers behind her. they have been very praising of the president. pramila jayapal called the president the closer, inspirer,
mediator in chief. progressives aren't poo-pooing this bill. senator manchin is willing to go on a sunday afternoon. >> sitting at home on a sunday chilling. welcome to the club, mr. president, working on a sunday. we have a lot more to talk about and i want to get into the virginia race when we come back with this, the panel, the conversation keeps going after the break. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair
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that terry mcauliffe could lose to glenn youngkin? >> i think it looks like a close race. i'll say this. fool me once, fool me twice. i don't know that i put any credence into any of the horse race polling coming down the stretch in a race at all anymore. i just don't know if it's able to be gotten right. the reading of the national tea leaves is likely to be overstated because of the proximity of the state to washington, d.c., number one. the fact that terry mcauliffe has been in our national politics for a generation, number two. and, lastly, he was the governor of -- he was the governor of the state. he definitely has some headwind pushing up on him, but this goes to show, i think, the ability of
democrats to make an argument about the republican party as a whole is going to be tested in this race because youngkin is obviously trying to run away from trump while still benefitting with the alliance of the people in virginia who are the virginia version of the people in iowa that are talking about lynching the democratic party chair and so this race has importance in that way, but i'm not sure that it's a national harbinger where you're going to be reading into the results of this and speculating, you know, this is what's going to happen next year in the mid terms because of it. >> wow. i can hear a collective, you know, sigh of relief from some corners of the democratic party faithful listening to what you have to say there, steve. joan, one of the narratives out of the virginia governor's race is oh, democratic enthusiasm,
it's not there. you know, folks saying that the fact that vice president harris went to campaign for terry mcauliffe and the fact that former president barack obama was campaigning for him yesterday is some sign that they're trying to save a drowning terry mcauliffe. let's hear what former president barack obama had to say on the campaign trail yesterday. >> just this past week some of you probably saw every democrat in the senate supported a bill that would protect the right to vote and ban partisan gerrymandering and reduce the influence of money in our politics. every democrat voted for it, every run can voted against it which, by the way, this is a little bit of an aside you have to ask yourself, why is it republicans don't want you to vote? what is it that they're so afraid of? >> joan, that question from
president obama is a legitimate question. my question is is that line of argument plus the person who's delivering it, is that something that can help terry mcauliffe in terms of the enthusiasm that seems like a lot of people are worried about when it comes to his ability tow win on november 2nd? >> yeah. i have talked to people in the last few weeks and there's been a little bit of a bump in enthusiasm. it helped for president obama to be there. it helped for kamala harris to be there. joe biden will be there tuesday, i think. you know, but you're just not -- you're not seeing the level of enthusiasm that you were seeing back in 2017 when this was the first test of the anti-trump resistance. so people have been worried about that. they're not getting bus loads of folks coming in from new york, chicago to knock doors, but they're starting to see an uptick. i think they're also able to run. voting rights is really
important, and virginia has done some amazing things on that front. they establish early voting. there's no excused absentee voting. there's now sunday voting so as we speak probably there are souls to the coals efforts getting people to leave church and then go early vote. so there's really been -- in addition to raising minimum wage, teachers salaries, they have a lot to run on. i think in the opposing days youngkin is running. i call youngkin trumpkin. he is not embracing trump. he accepted his endorsement. he's sneaking around with trumpy people while trying to keep a distance. i don't know if it's going to work, but mcauliffe has been making hay out of that and a really unfortunate rally that they had last week where state
senator jacques insisted that youngkin agrees with her that the election was stolen but he can't say that because he needs to get independents. completely out front about that. i think mcauliffe is going to win. i do. >> steve, let me come back to you on that. i do want to acknowledge, again, the passing of an american states man, general -- former secretary of state colin powell and the outpouring of grief over his passing was, you know, a reminder of who we could be as americans with one notable exception by the name of donald j. trump. and he put out -- even for him, one of the most disspecificable and disgusting statements where he said wonderful to see colin powell who made tremendous
statements. i'm not even going to finish reading this statement because it is just -- and i'm doing my best nancy pelosi at the state of the union imitation. steve, we're going to close out this segment with you. one minute, talk about colin powell and how americans should revere the passing of this man. >> he is a titanic figure in the history of the 20th century, and he is the only public servant, the only states person that this country has produced in the back half of the century who has any claim to rival the great states man george marshall. colin powell was part of an officer class that rebuilt the american military in the aftermath of the vietnam war
making it the most respected institution in the country. he was the youngest chairman in the history of the joint chiefs. the first black chairman. the first black national security adviser. the first black secretary of state. his life was one of firsts. when we think about colin powell's life, it's worth pondering where did such a man as this come from? and the answer is from jamaica. his parents were jamaican immigrants who settled in the south bronx so when we have debates about immigration, his mother was a seamstress. his father was a clerk. this is a country that can produce greatness from seamstresses and clerks. and so this man's life, which
straddled through an age where thousands of nuclear weapons were on hair trigger in the cold war, his role in making the world safer, taking a giant step back from nuclear destruction, the role he played with wise council as the cold war ended and the berlin wall fell, when he made mistakes he acknowledged them. he was a great man and the greatness of the man is not diminished by the country's biggest loser and greatest disgrace proving yet again truly that there is no bottom from him. that says a lot about donald trump. it says nothing about general powell. and, lastly, you know, i said to my 15-year-old son this week, and general powell has been removed, you know, from the day-to-day events of his life, and i said, that guy, you see
him? that's the type of man you want to be. that's the type of person you want to be like. he's a great man and no one in the next 5,000 years of human beings make it is ever going to say that about donald trump and i suppose that's the difference between the two of them. >> yeah. you know, my message to that person is keep his name out you mouth. keeping up, my panel continues. then, a mysterious figure reminds her that she has the farmers home policy perk, guaranteed replacement cost. and that her home will be rebuilt, regardless of her limits or if the cost of materials has gone up. (woman) that's really something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. wait, i didn't ruin the ending, did i? (woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
i prefer some alternative to what the present rule is. i'd like to restore the senate to what it was, where we actually had debates and people had to hold the floor and so i think some kind of talking filibuster, perhaps a rule that instead of having to have 60 votes to pass something we'd have to have 41 votes to stop it so that way the minority would
have to at least show up. >> maine's independent senator angus king making the case to andrea mitchell for sensible filibuster reform offering a simple fix to the obstructionist temper tantrums. the panel is back. yumish, this is a position change for senator king when it comes to reforming the filibuster, even talking about doing that. how likely is it that we will see filibuster reform this year? >> that's a great question. it's i think still really up in the air. we saw a significant shift from president biden who had been saying, yes, we should go back to the talking filibuster with the idea of a loophole in the filibuster. then he said what democratic whip jim clyburn had been saying for months, which is there
should possibly be a loophole -- there should be a loophole for civil rights legislation. the president had been resisting that. i asked him myself several times on the record and the president said, no, i'm not criticizing. this is the right way to go. then he said, yes, this is the way to go. it shows that the wins are shifting and there could be a change in the filibuster. a lot of this has to do with if democrats want anything to run on, the infrastructure bill likely will get passed, they need to be dealing with voting rights. our democracy is a key part of how people are going to engage in the electoral process. republicans have changed the rules in 19 plus states. >> you know, joan, shifting gears from filibuster reform to oh, subpoenas and defying congressional subpoenas.
listen to what speaker pelosi had to say. >> do you think people who refuse to comply with congressional subpoenas should be prosecuted by the justice department and at the end of the day go to jail? >> yes. >> you do? >> i do. first of all, people said, well, this hasn't happened before. we haven't had an insur rekt shub incited by the president of the united states and one of his toadies. it's important for us to find the truth about what happened on january 6th, an assault on our constitution, our congress and our capitol. >> you know, joan, how important is it that, you know, bannon goes to jail for defying a congressional subpoena? for being found in criminal contempt? >> he's full of contempt, you know? and i don't think he should be able to resist a lawful subpoena at this point, jonathan, so i'm happy to hear her talking that way. i hope it happens. i'd like to see him participate
willingly, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. they've got to show they mean business and i don't think they do often enough. i think too often they let the process play out and let these guys get away. so i hope they mean business when it comes to steve bannon and others, and others. >> and i'm glad you said that, joan, and others. because have a listen to congressman billy thompson, chair of the january 6th select committee, what he had to say when he was asked, you know, if donald trump is going to be subpoenaed. >> well, let me say that nobody's off limits. we will be on an ongoing basis issuing subpoenas to various individuals around the country. if we have enough evidence, and obviously we are pursuing evidence, but if evidence leads
to former president trump or anyone else, the committee is not res so he nent in pushing back on it. we will go forward. >> that's an important message, joan, to send out. they're not afraid of donald trump. if there is a need for him to be subpoenaed, they will do it. >> well, good. i think there is that need. i think it will take a long time. i think he will hang out in court. it's important to get started now. they might not have power, you know, in a year -- in a little over a year's time. i hope they do, speaking of the democrats, but nothing is guaranteed at this point so i would like to see a little bit more urgency. it's going on, what is it, nine months since the insurrection? we haven't seen enough action. >> your view on what joan just
said in terms of not seeing enough action but one on speaker pelosi saying if bannon is found guilty, yeah, he should be prosecuted and go to jail, but also chair of the select committee benny thompson saying, look, if we need to subpoena donald trump, we're going to do it. >> i believe him. and when i look at the vice chair, she doesn't look like the type of lady who's not going to enforce subpoenas from a congressional committee. i -- look, we're going to find out everything that happened here 100%. and we will see a lot of the theater play out, but in essence what steve bannon is saying to the country, a nation of laws is fu. i don't have to do this. but in fact he does. the committee, it's great to see the speaker say they intend to
show steele, resolve and hard core. they need to. this is the most serious investigation of any type that's taken place over any of our life times. >> you know, yamiche, is there -- from the white house's perspective, we're at arm's length, we're not telling attorney general merrick garland what to do in any of this stuff, but how engaged is the white house in terms of watching what the select committee is doing? >> well, the white house is watching what the select committee, what this investigation into the capitol, how it's progressing. they're watching it very closely. we heard the president say that he views january 6th atz an extraordinary event, it's a deep stain on our democracy. he did have that point where he said people should be prosecuted if they defy congressional subpoenas. he walked that back and said it
was inappropriate for him to weigh in. he's walking back not influencing the doj, influencing what the department of justice is going to do, but at the same time he's saying this is a very serious offense. the fact that we had people break into our capitol, this is something that needs to be top of mind with lawmakers and they take this very seriously. they've waived executive privilege. they'll be waiving it for other documents coming down the line. this is the white house saying we're not shielding the former president and all of his top aides who could have possibly been in cahoots and not encouraging people, lying to people and saying you can go, you should go attack the capitol. instead, there's a real question of what exactly was happening there. what kind of conversations were happening on january 6th. so the white house is absolutely looking at this very closely. >> yamiche, steve, joan, thank
you all very much for coming back to "the sunday show." up next in my bye line, as democracy hangs by a thread, i make the case again for reforming the filibuster now. stay with us. ♪♪ we believe everyone deserves to live better. and just being sustainable isn't enough. our future depends on regeneration. that's why we're working to not only protect our planet, but restore, renew, and replenish it.
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president biden dipped his toe into the waters of filibuster reform this week during this exchange at the cnn town hall this week. >> when it ams to voting rights, just so i'm clear, you would entertain the notion of doing away with the filibuster on that one issue. is that correct? >> maybe more. >> yes, that is a departure from the president's studied distance from the issue. a welcome departure. after 36 years in the senate, i get why he would be reluctant to disrupt the customs of the world's most deliberative body. but after three fails votes on voting rights, and general republican cecalcitrance and obstinnance on his agenda, there isn't much debate going on. if we're to save our democracy, the filibuster must be reformed to at least allow debate on the freedom to vote act. if we're to save our economy,
the filibuster must be reforms to allow a simple majority vote on raising the debt ceiling in order to reserve the full faith and credit of the united states, not to mention safeguard the global financial order. if a free and fair election that put president biden in the white house is to mean anything, then the filibuster must be reformed. a standing filibuster, for instance, could make those who would rather play games with people's lives think long and hard about how much effort they want to put into stopping legislation that would make those lives better. but here's what i need president biden to do. i need him to be as clear about what he would like to have happen to the filibuster as he was at that town hall about the contours of the emerging reconciliation bill. i need him to do an oval office address to outline why filibuster reform must happen. it's not just about saving the biden agenda or the biden presidency. it's about saving american
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democratic member of the house select january 6th committee about that committee's efforts to unravel what happened on that terrible day at the capitol. >> but first, we're starting off with breaking news. president biden meeting with senator joe manchin and majority leader chuck schumer at his home in delaware today to talk about his agenda. let's go right nuto nbc's mike memoli who is there in wilmington. give me a sense of the timing of the meeting and the greater influence of it. what are you hearing? >> well, alex, one of the things a change of scenery means is usually when the meetings are happening at the white house or capitol hill, we have some visibility to when they started and ended. we see senators coming and going. with the privacy of this at the president's home today in wilmington, we don't have that insight, but it does seem significant this is happening on a weekend at the president's home at a critical point, throw a white house official is downplaying exp