tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC October 22, 2021 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT
with our thanks for being here with us. have a good weekend, unless you have over plans. on behalf of all our colleagues at the networks of nbc news, good night. happy friday, here's a thing i do not get the say very often. today was a day full of good news. when it comes to whether or not we are going to stay a democracy in our lifetimes. we have been covering this beat pretty relentlessly for the past several years now, as you know. the republican party, over the past several years they have more and more overtly embraced donald trump's denunciation of elections. the promotion of false claims about elections to undermine faith in them. the rejection of clear our election results, the promotion of changes to election
administration that would allow republicans to subvert election results that they don't like. it has been a leak thing to cover. the news on this bleak beat is always bad. if january six was supposed to be a shock to the system that would reset the republican party to this dangerous course, it works like one day, and then it really did not work. the embrace of all this very dark anti democracy, rule by force stuff, in the republican party has just gotten worse and worse. even since january 6th, it's a drag, it's been a drag to cover it, i'll tell you honestly. but today, bright spots. not being sarcastic, bright spots on a bunch of different fronts. let me tell you about some of them, first of all, in terms of accountability, cnn first to report tonight that one of the key alleged plotters with trump in the senior levels of his justice department, is finally going to come forward and testify. this is jeffrey clark, mr.
clark with trump hatched this scheme, by which the justice department would hold a press conference after the election, and declare at that press conference that there were serious fraud problems in the election in multiple states, the justice department was investigating these very serious problems, he then wanted to send a letter to swing states that biden won. a letter from the justice department, advising officials in those states but the justice department thought there were serious problems with the elections in those states. and republican state legislators should therefore start investigating their election results or whatever. they should get to work on one of them they need to do to not send biden electors to the electoral college, even though in reality biden when those states. that was their jeffrey clark plan, we know from the senate judiciary committee's investigation of these matters. and we know that the plan, it had a lot of detail in it, the reason it fell apart was
because the it then attorney general jeff rosen, wouldn't sign on to it. when rosen wouldn't sign off on it, when you allow this plot to go forward. trump then tried to replace rosen with jeffrey clark. try to install geoff clark himself as attorney general, so the clark plan would go ahead. again, to have the doj declares here is fraud in the election, and to direct states to there for now to send their biden electors, it was absolutely insane. it was also a rational plan. they didn't just fall about it, they didn't just fantasize about it, they drafted the letters to the states, he didn't insist on the press conference, justice department officials even tried to on board u.s. attorneys, federal prosecutors in the role living in states, tobacco up on the spear's fraud claims they were going to use, to keep trump in power even though he lost the election. news on this front has been
absolutely terrible, as we've learned from all the things that they've tried. but it today, a little glimmer with the news that jeff clark has apparently finally agreed to testify to the committee that is investigating the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. i mentioned that a lot of the clark plot emerged both from public source reporting, particularly in the new york times, but also from the senate judiciary committee's investigation into what happened in the justice department around this time. the senate judiciary committee has been investigating how trump used the justice department to try to seize power, and stay in power after losing the election. interesting ali, for their preliminary report those released a couple of weeks ago, they have a lot of information about what jeffrey clark did, but all the information they have about it is from other people. they couldn't get clark to testify himself. because republican senators on the judiciary committee, apparently blocked a committee from giving a subpoena to jeff clark. they wouldn't allow a subpoena to him to go for it.
republicans didn't want to hear from him. and so, jeff clark didn't speak to them. but the house committee that's investigating the january 6th attack, they apparently do not have that problem. and so, clark is going to be coming in this day next week to speak to the january six investigation committee. progress. investig ation committee. and this news comes, of course, just as of the full house voted yesterday. all the democrats, and nine republicans, voted yesterday that another important witness for that investigation, maybe a subject of that investigation, i don't? now should be referred to the justice department for potential prosecution. that criminal referral of trump advisor steve bannon is now at the u.s. attorney's office in washington d.c.. they will considered independently, and make their own decision about whether to press charges, we are waiting to see if they will put steve ninan on trial in that manner. but again, the prospect of
accountability there, that's a glimmer. those glimmers, today, also arrive alongside a bizarre turn today for a trump lawyer named john eastman. he's an obscure figure who got famous for this whole scandal, when he wrote the notorious eastman memo, which laid out the theory of the case behind the january 6th on the capitol. which trump demanded of the crowd at that rally, january 6th, before his supporters rushed to the capitol, which trump demanded of them, with people like eastman himself, and other speakers that day told that mob they would accomplish if they, in trump's words, fought like hell that they, was a specific thing. it was this scenario that was laid out in eastman's memo, which said pence shouldn't accept the electors from swing states that biden won, the memo laid out how vice president mike pence had the right not to accept those electors, and
that's how the electoral count could be scott stopped, that's how the naming of biden as the winner of the election could be technically stops. john eastman is the one who laid out the memo from how the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol, which did stop the counting process for sometime, he later the memo for how the attack on the capitol that day could work. particularly if pence went along with it, this is how we can work. well, today, bizarrely, that lawyer, john eastman, the guy who wrote about this quasi-legal theory of the case, which they used to justify republican members of congress objecting to the electoral count, which i used to try to get pence to go along with the scheme. today, in an interview with and are, that lawyer john eastman sort of walked it all back. he didn't say he changed his mind, but he said that's not what he meant in the first place, he tried to pretend of that's nobody what road in his meadow, he now says it was just a drafts, and of course if
anybody had gone along with any of this that would be crazy. which is insane. but also, in its own way, is progress. it will be a worse scenario, if the people who tried to lay out this quasi-legal theory for our trump could stay in power, if they were still defending that and saying that is the way that elections and post election behavior should proceed, in future years. instead, it is progress. it is a form of accountability, the lawyer who propound that in writing saying that wasn't me. it must be a different john eastman. also today, in wisconsin, more progress. you know how republicans all over the country are pursuing these reviews of the 2020 election results. arizona, pennsylvania, texas, wisconsin, they're pursuing these reviews which where they're calling audits, or forensic audits. they want to make it seem like
they're running some rigorous process, and investigating some kind of known crime scene all these things are nonsense, they are designed simply to muddy the waters around the clear election results. trying to make election administration seem controversial or rigs, or somehow partisan. they're trying to reunify these raid assertions of fraud. so republican voters will be condition to not accept election results in the future when republicans lose elections. they're using the sort of reviews and audits to sort of justify perverting electric administration systems. so partisan figures can mess with and throw out inconvenient results in the future, they are toxic inevitably change russ. we they've actually had to audits on the way, and some really interesting and i would
say positive developments on both of them today, the first of them is one of these nonsense cyber ninjas partisan things, that they're using tax bury money for, but the republicans in the wisconsin state legislature put this thing in the hands of the stop the steal stolen election rallies in michigan after the election. i guy who, subsequently, trump tried to give a federal crime into. i'm sure he'll be a very nonpartisan arbiter of this manner. i think today there was a sign of progress towards exposing and perhaps ending that ridiculous at exercise that very partisan figure in wisconsin it's heading up on behalf of the states republicans. today, wisconsin state turning members senator paul asked a judge to throughout the subpoenas this guy sent out as part of his purported investigation. he told the court that those subpoenas were sent, quote, in furtherance of an unlawful investigation focusing on debunks theories about the november 2020 election. now, we'll see how the courts
handle this request from wisconsin's attorney general. but, as a general manner asking the courts to evaluate the means by which the republicans are trying to carry out these fake audits, is a good step. towards bringing some order some oversight, some accountability, through this otherwise very dangerous, slipshod process that we've seen unfold in multiple states. so, an effort to bring the courts into effectively police that nonsense that republicans are trying to pull off in wisconsin. also today, also in wisconsin, a totally separate audits carried out legitimately by the professional, qualified, nonpartisan, legislative audit bureau in wisconsin. today, that actually real audit, conducted by people who know how to do audits, for whom that is actual professional responsibility within the state, today they've submitted their
findings of a real audit, a real review of how the election win in wisconsin this year. this past year. and it turns out, in their findings, again they're professional, qualified, sober, nonpartisan findings. actually, everything was fine. here's the associated press on that today, in wisconsin, you see the headline there, wisconsin hot it finds elections are safe and secure. this is the lead, and -- released today, did not identify any widespread fraud in the battleground state, which a key republican legislative leader said shows wisconsin's elections are quote, safe and secure. so, yes, republicans in wisconsin are persisting with their clown show audit. but, it's now being forced to go through some hoops set by, potentially the courts and wisconsin. which is probably a good thing,
rationalize in that process, open enough to public scrutiny, not million do just whatever they want to calling it an investigation. and, simultaneously, today also they were forced to admit after a real audit that actually everything was fine with the election results there. hello progress, nice to meet you. i realize maybe this is the stop of bigotry of low expectations. like maybe i've seen the silver linings in water very very dark clouds, and i'm overplaying the silver. but after such a bleak news on this front for so long, those are positive developments. also, progress today, in florida all of the county election supervisors in florida, a bipartisan group of them, represents the top election official from each of florida's 67 florida counties. but those county election officials in florida have put out a joint bipartisan statement now, calling on all public officials in the state to quote tone it down and stop
making false fraud claims about the election the great american experiment, is under threat. our nation is only as strong as the fate of our citizens have that their voice their vote -- is been systematically undermined, to the detriment of all americans. as the official trusted sources of election information in our fields. we consistently strive to debunk false claims, and ensure voters have access to accurate election information. a continued quote, false claims of fraud do not strengthen our elections, instead, they degrade confidence in the institutions, and discourage citizen participation in our democracy. during an after the 2020 presidential election the integrity of our democracy has been challenged by misinformation, disinformation, and mullen formation that sows discord and undermines trust in america as a process, many have been threatened by our our
fellow citizens who've been let astray by these deceptions. instead of standing idly by, we ask all candidates and all elected a lip facials to tone down the rhetoric and stand up for our democracy. again, that is a bipartisan statement from the florida supervisors of elections. from all the top election administrators in all of florida 67 counties, democrats and republicans, telling all election officials to knock it off with the false kinds of outflow and elections. progress!e kin that is a good sign, i told you. there's a bunch of promising news on this front. today but i will close -- i will leave you with one more. them sort of, to me, shocking. definitely bizarre collapse of a republican and conservative media scheme in the state of nevada to promote false allegations of fraud in the presidential election in the state of nevada. this is an amazing story. all right, joe biden beat
donald trump in nevada by just under 35,000 votes. nevada is one of the states where trump, nevertheless, suited to have the results overturned, to have himself declared the winner. he sued to have the results decertified, he actually asked the courts to declare him the winner even though the certified vote asserted that biden won. he said the reason why the election should be overturned is because he said the republican party and the trump campaign knew that there was so much fraud in the nevada election specifically, they allege that there were tons and tons of dead people who voted in nevada which means that lie voted who voted in that peoples names, they said they had tons of proof of that. now, republicans and the conservative media, specifically hyped the case of one ballot that was kate -- cast in nevada. and the name of a woman who died in 2017, at the age of 52. a very sad story, she died of
breast cancer. she has been dead since 2017. her address was nevertheless mailed a ballot in her name. but her husband says he never saw any such ballot, no ballot ever arrived. but, the county, clark county, nevada, where he and his late wife lived, he says the county nevertheless recorded her vote as being cast and counted. fraud, voter fraud. conservative and republican groups held a big press conference in nevada the week after the election saying that this case proved that the election in nevada was a lousy with voter fraud. surely this was one example, but surely, if there was this one clear case of a ballot being case -- cast by this woman who is dead, there must be hundreds, there must be thousands! the whole election in nevada must be thrown out. look at this one case. this is an exemplar of one must
be many of these cases. now they held a very big press conference that was well attended by the media. now in the national media, over on fox news, and they went hog wild with it. >> so was there voter fraud last week? that is the question we have been working on since election night. we try to be careful and precise as we report this out. and moments like this in matters more than ever. the last thing that america needs right now is more damage. should we be more accurate? what we are about to tell you is accurate. it is not a theory, it happened and we can prove it. other news organizations could prove it to, they've simply chosen not to. the former elementary school teacher, according to her 2017 obituary, she was a fun,, sassy sarcastic fun person.
sadly, she is gone. but her voter registration remains. someone received her ballot in the mail and cast it. who did this? we don't know who did it, we wish we did. and we should know. it is fraud, it is a threat to our system and it is being hidden by news media that is totally invested in the joe biden presidency. again, we have a right to, know we have an obligation to know, much more about this. >> again, that case being used to tell americans writ large, whatever you have heard about voter fraud in the election, about there being massive fraud in the election, this case proves it. this case shows you that the democrats don't it. we and the extrapolation from this one case to try to prove that there was widespread fraud was quite. avert no doubt excited by the kind of press that they were getting on the fox news channel on this, one and when the
nevada state republican party just hype this individual case relentlessly. they have dependent the -- there must have been tons of fraud in the election, the whole nevada election should be thrown out. biden definitely didn't win because look at this woman's case! , that hyping by the state republican party included this kind of morbid tweet in which they posted the woman's obituary alongside their statement. craig was surprised to find that his late wife cast a ballot after her this -- them again, they show the screenshot of the woman's obituary, scalding the media on this. and then another one of their tweets, they are hyping the same case. they linked to a video of kirk, of the woman's husband. and this case speaking with a local cbs station. >> it was disbelief.
i made no sense to me. but ed let some credence to what you've been hearing in the media about these possibilities and now makes me wonder how pervasive is this. >> he was shocked. disbelief, shocked that a ballot had been cast in his dead wife's name. and now that he knows it, happen this month, there this lends credence to all these claims that you are hearing about voter fraud in the election, there must be tons of. it just makes me wonder how pervasive all this is. well that man, the husband, has just been charged with two felony counts of voter fraud. because according to prosecutors, he is actually the one who cast the ballot in the name of his dead wife. in addition to his own ballot. which means that if the
prosecutors in this case or correct, he probably wasn't that shocked. shocked and disbelieve to find out that her ballot had been cast since he's the one who cast. it but nevertheless, he put himself out there to become the poster boy for these false claims of fraud that republicans in the conservative media used and are still using to claim the election was stolen. he is an executive at a company that had taken a very positive and public pro trump stands and actually hosted an event for president trump in nevada just before the november election last year. he has been charged with these two felony counts, he's facing up to eight years in prison. he will have his initial court appearance next month in nevada. this be, this effort by republicans on conservative media to make americans not believe in election results anymore, it is still a depressing beat. we will stay on it because it is the most important story in
modern history. but, some, days some days, even as the speed is relentlessly depressing and it just feels like it is getting worse. some days are good days! some days, schemes get exposed. scammers get caught, good to people stand, a bad guy slink, away the facts come. out some days are good days. this was a big day. was a big day was a big day tonight,
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that this is not a typical story that we cover on the show this is not just our usual thing. but it is a compelling story in its right, it is a legitimate mystery. and i want to tell, you this one also come next to something that we have been covering intensely recently. recently, we have been covering how americans are going on strike all over the country, more than 10,000 people who work for the john deere company are on their ninth day of protests for better wages. 1400 americans who work the kellogg cereal company earned the third week of their strike against the company in multiple states. tens of thousands of people who are health care workers at the kaiser hospital system in california, oregon, and hawaii, they may also go on strike,
again, then that would be tens of thousands of people. that would be, huge that decision could come at anytime. this, week 300 flight attendants working for a subsidiary of american airlines, they are threatening to strike. step to transit union workers might strike. and hollywood, another huge, when it was last week when 60,000 stage crew workers in hollywood came within hours of launching what would've been the biggest strike in that industry since world war ii. the union, i add, see represents at the largest -- two stagehands of all kinds. last, week just hours before the 60,000 people were due to walk off the job, the studios did offer up an improved deal for those workers. whether it's a good enough deal, those workers are still going to have to decide, they're gonna have to vote on whether they're going to accept the new terms, until they, do the threat of that historic strike still looms. but that is turning out to be
part of the relevant backdrop for this truly bizarre and terrible story that we will -- we all woke up to this morning that we cannot avoid talking about it. you've seen the headlines. yesterday, on the set of a western filming in new mexico, the actor alec baldwin fired a gun that was supposed to be a prop in the scene. the resulting shot killed the films cinematographer. 42 year old woman named halyna hutchins, she was considered to be a rising star in her field, she was the cinematographer. the film's director was also injured in this incident. he has been released from the hospital. but when it comes to figuring out how this could've happened, the questions that come to the four are simple and mystifying. how does the prop gun resulted in a real shooting? in some cases, a prop gun is literally something that is not a gun at, all it has no working parts, it is something made out of rubber or plastic. it is designed to have a gun shape. some but if you are watching a movie or tv show and you see
someone actual -- actually fire a weapon, you see the, bang you see the, flash chances, are those or special effects or that could be a real gun. firing a blank bullet. what is a blank bullet? this is a diagram that usa today posted today which i think is useful. for an actual piece of ammunition, one that is designed to shoot someone, there are several parts. there's the casing, the primer, the powder, gunpowder, and the bullet, which is at the tip of the projectile. that is the thing that is supposed to be able to kill you. the primer and the powder are the things that make the bullet propel out of the gun, that is the stuff that goes bang and that's at the flash. but it is the bullet that is the projectile that is fired out of the barrel. if a gun is loaded with a blank, that just means that it has all those other component pieces, minus the bullet itself. minus the projectile that is
designed to actually kill you. just because they are blanks, doesn't mean that they are not dangerous, i mean, go back to that diagram showing the blank for a second. you see where it says, sealed with plastic or paper, released like a projectile. there isn't-eyed chunk of metal on the end, a bullet, you still need a stick something in there to seal in the gunpowder, and usually planes used paper plastic wanting, which poses less danger than a bullet, but have fired at close enough range a blanket seriously injure or kill someone. it's technically missing the bullet, but even a blank be changes, even a blank can be deadly, that's happened on movie sets. in 1984 jean-éric hansen was joking around on the set of a film, with a real prop gun that was filled with blanks, he shot himself in the head at close range. the force of that blank fractured his skull and he died. there's also the potential to
miss loaded gun, this happened on a movie set in 1993. the actor brian ali, the son of bruce ali, starring in a movie where his character was supposed to get shot in the stomach but when another actor fired a prop gun in his direction, a gun loaded with blanks, turns out the gun had been misquoted, it hadn't been checked properly when it was loaded with blanks, there is an actual bullet as launched in the chamber of that gun, when the gun went off it fired a blind, but also dislodged a real bullet which hit privately in the abdomen and killed him. so there are problems of various kinds in various movies, these are so dangerous but a lot of them are used at all. you know michelle mayor of these town, as on hbo early this year, so good, kate winds lit plays a police detective, this is not a spoiler, but a
lot of guns are fired, on the mayor of east town they decided that every fine of every gun would be all cgi, it was all special effects. they didn't use prop guns loaded with blanks. they maybe lost the authentic recoil, and alive muzzle flash that they would've cut from using plants, but they decided that it wasn't worth the risk. they added in all of that after the facts, and a lot of productions do that now. but, a lot of movie and tv says study do use real sets. the prague massacre will annals all the props, if there are guns been used, that person can sometimes be assisted by and it's a specialist, an arm or, someone who specializes in weaponry for film in tv sets. as you can imagine, the entertainment industry has very strict rules for using firearms onset. this is from some of the industry wide labor commission, these are some of the rules they put out about guns on set.
right out the tap, they say planes can kill, treat all firearms as though they are loaded. and that is just pages and pages of rules trying to head off any tragic accidents, like the one we saw yesterday in new mexico. number one, refrain from pointing a firearm at anyone including yourself, if it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, consult the property master. number two, never place your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot, keep your finger alongside the firearm -- nowhere and what your intended target is. and to state the very obvious, clearly something broke down on this film set yesterday, when no crew member was killed, and another seriously injured, when an actor to charge a prop gun. we don't know where the breakdown of safety protocols were, but how could've happened? just in the last hour, we learned from the ap, that it was the assistant director of the film who reportedly handed the prop gun to alcoholism in
before the incident happened. according to court documents obtained by a pea, the assistant director did not contained a live round. in movies speak alive around could also mean a blank. for the purposes of being on a movie set anything they could be fired from a gun is considered to be alive rounds. but in terms of what killed the cinematographer and injured the director, we don't even know if it was a blank that was discharged from the weapon, could've been an actual live bullet as was the case with brantley? it's all been investigated now by the senator county sheriff's office. beyond the immediate tragedy here, and he absolutely for seeing mystery of what could be wrong and what could've gone along. this does intersects with the story we've been seeing going on across the country. american workers of all kinds in all industries have been advocating for changes in their
workplace. advocating for better pay, better benefits, but also safer and more sustainable working conditions. like i said, this activism as included the entertainment industry, just this past week, it's only been a couple of days since tens of thousands of workers in hollywood's biggest stage crew union, threatened to all walk off the job to demand better and safer working conditions. but we are starting to learn tonight, as we continue to get new information, that this dynamic of workers demanding that are working editions, that dynamic was very much in play on this very movie set where this incident happened, it was at play just hours before the fatal incident occurred, the l.a. times is reporting that just hours before this incident, where the cinematographers killed and the director was insured, just hours before, half a dozen camera crew workers walked off that same set to protest working conditions. both camera operators and their assistants were frustrated by the conditions surrounding the
low budget film, including complaints about long hours, long commutes and, not getting their paychecks. so, the morning of the incident, the camera crew showed up for work for the 6:30 to call time, they packed up their -- cinematographer who is killed, highly notions had been out of was using her club to advocate for better working conditions for teams. one of those camera crew workers, left there set in protest. the l.a. times reports that the film production brought in non-union film crews to replace them. and ordered all remaining union workers to leave for the day. now, typically onset the prop master, the person in charge of making sure their guns are handled in tuesday's lily, typically that itself as a union role. but today, the local union says there is no member of the unit on the set at the time of the
incident. and it gets more worrying, nbc news is reporting that among the safety concerns were concerns over the got prop gun involved in this incident, the same gun, had reportedly misfired multiple times, previously on the set. the l.a. times has further reporting on this tonight, a quote from what they just posted, baldwin's stunt double accidentally fired two rounds out of the gun on saturday, after being told that the gun was cold, lingo for a weapon that doesn't have any in ammunition, including blanks. that's according to to crack crew members who witnessed the episode to talk to the l.a. times about it, one crew member saying there should have been an investigation into what happened, there is no safety meetings, no assurance that it wouldn't happen again. all they wanted to do was rush. again, according to the l.a. times, one colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires, that he sent a text message to the unit production manager saying, quote, we've now had three accidental
discharges, this is super unsafe. and look, there is so much that we do not know, we have no idea when or where or why the breakdown in gun safety protocol happen, we don't know the basis of what was fired out of the gun, we do know there was trouble and said preceding the incident, as recently as the morning before it happened. with crewmembers complaining about safety conditions on set, including around that gun. we don't know if that played an immediate role at all, and how things fell apart here, fatally. what else can we know at this point about exactly what happened here. we've got an expert on hand to help us out. that's next, stay with us. that's next, stay with us. when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites (man 1) oh, this looks like we're in a screen saver. (man 2) yeah, but we need to go higher. (man 1) higher. (man 2) definitely higher.
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ioc crew in new mexico. rust is the name of the movie, and what she's referencing is the labor action by the labor intelligent vision union, there are threatening a massive strike in hollywood, the biggest race since world war ii, over among other things but they saw is inadequate workplace safety for film crew members. we still don't know if i at sea is going to go on strike that labor action is sort of pending. they're still waiting to see if they should accept the terms that they've got from labor unions this week. it has a whole new cast, halyna hutchins died on the set of a movie after a prop gun that shouldn't have been able to kill anybody fired a projectile of some kind the shot and killed her -- including a walk off by some iatse members as recently as
yesterday morning before the incident happened. we are learning more tonight there is reportedly a series of issues with the prop guns onset there were calls for safety concerns among crew members, before yesterday, still a lot of unanswered questions today, joining us now steve wulf a weapon safety expert, who is involved in the investigation of the brantley investigation, mr. wolf it's a real pleasure to have with us. thanks rachel, it's a pleasure to be with, you and i almost feel like you don't need me here, you got. this >> let me ask if i explain this well, when i was talking about blanks and the differences between blanks and, bullets that was all the way it supposed to be explained? >> you nailed it. you could've done ten times -- on the baldwin set. [inaudible] this is should be --
there is room for gunpowder, and this is live ammo. hard to get these wrong. one issue though is, referring to this weapon as a prop weapon. a prop is -- when a knack toured touches their cell phone, that's a prop. well if i touch this gun, it's a prop. that doesn't make it a prop gun, though. it is a gun that is being used as a prop. a prop gun has been mechanically modified so that you cannot put live ammo into. it simply won't go in your prop gun. the planks will not going. so you cannot kill anyone with it. he shot with a real gun, presumably now with what was with live ammo.
also, when we say going live on set, as you said, going live doesn't mean that we are using live ammo, it means that we are about to do something noisy, we are doing the real thing. we are going live, we are gonna blow up the, carver gonna load the gun with the blanks. it doesn't mean that we are putting real ammunition and bullets into guns that -- and handling them onset. >> steve, because of all of the safety protocols that are being used, including, as you just described, making sure that you are using a realistic looking weapon that is operable but it cannot be loaded with live ammunition. the kind of safety rules that i just showed that our standard in terms of what people -- how people are trained to work around these kinds of firearms onset because of what we know about the industry standards of safety briefings of everybody who is involved in a shoe to has a firearm involved in anyway. it seems very surprising given the current state of how things
are handled in the industry, that this could happen. it seems like that there's so many safeguards, that it should be impossible. >> it's to the point where you can't hurt somebody -- you can break some -- hurt somebody if you break multiple rules. if you use an un-modified firearm, when you put alive ammo in it, when you pointed the gun at the person, you have broken three rules that lead you down the road to hordes homicide. any one of these things, let's say you brought a lifeguard -- live gun and put life i'm in, it and you point, again we have a rule that you do not point guns. there would've been a fatality, people -- no one would've been killed. so you have to break a bunch of rules. also, talking about the gun
misfiring, when we say it misfired, it means it didn't go. off it didn't misfire, it was accidentally discharged. i'm not sure how it was an accident having had guns in my whole life, i've never seen a gun go off by itself, guns go off when -- i'm you check if it's clear. guns go off if you press the trigger. it's an intentional act. you should not confuse intentional act from accidents. it didn't accidentally go off, the gun was put in the hands of a person, the person did not check to see if there was any ammunition, and they pulled the trigger. so it was unsafe supervision. >> and the supervision and the labor conditions here are going to dovetail in terms of what the consequences of this act are, but we should keep in mind that, first and foremost right, now there's a police investigation into what happened here and we expect that the office will let us know more than we know now.
>> i mean, from what i am looking at now, i believe that -- the use of live ammo with bullets in it and bringing that to movie set is absolutely unconscionable, and putting that in the hands of an actor, and not telling the, after under no circumstances should you point this at, anyone i'm pretty sure that alec baldwin, had he been, told but not of pointed the gun at anybody. and they weren't watching to see if he was following directions. so, you can have all the safety meetings you want, but if people are gonna break the rules, it can be dangerous. it's very simple common sense, don't bring live animal on sets, don't point guns at people that you do not want to hurt. >> steve wulf -- >> yeah? >> steve wulf, a professional stunt, man film weapons safety expert, spelling this out in a way that is very clear.
steve, thanks for helping us understand. tonight i really appreciate it. >> thank you so. much i appreciate. it >> we have more -- tonight, stay with us. >> th us. >> fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites (upbeat music) - [narrator] this is kate. she always wanted her smile to shine. now, she uses a capful of therabreath healthy smile oral rinse to give her the healthy, sparkly smile she always wanted. (crowd cheering) therabreath, it's a better mouthwash. at walmart, target and other fine stores.
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it for us tonight. i.d. want to mention before a good that msnbc and has a very good new movie that's going to air on sunday night, it's called civil war, or who do we think we are. it's really good, really well done, really thought-provoking, the executive producers brad pitt, if that tells you anything. that's when we are right here on msnbc, this sunday night at 10 pm eastern time. you should watch it. that's going to do it for me tonight, and i was time for the last word with all evil she filling in for lawrence o'donnell. >> that documentary is so good, it speaks to how the civil war