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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  October 19, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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>> tonight on all in, a disgraced ex president makes his move to stop the january six committee. what we know about donald trump's last ditch appeal of the supreme court. then, colin powell said comes to coronavirus complications at age 84. and the vaccine misinformation machine kicks into gear. >> here we have a very high example. that is going to require more truth, more truth from our government. >> plus, how groups catalyze obama era teen pretty protests. or doing the same with scoreboard protests. and why so called natural immunity still is an excuse to not get vaccinated. >> why would i get vaccinated? >> when you know i have better immunity than someone who has been vaccinated.
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>> when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, for months now the january 6th select committee has been trying to get all sorts of information and documents from the national archivist that keeps the documents in the trump white house, about the trump white house communications leading up to the insurrection. now, surprisingly donald trump has been claiming executive privilege all along. even though he is no longer the executive. and even though the current president, joe biden, has formally declined to invoke executive privilege to protect trump's from congressional investigators. it is a problem for donald trump because he apparently really does not want anybody to get those records. so just a few hours ago, the ex president sued to block the national archives from handing over any documents that the january six committee is seeking. the lawsuit was filed by a virginia lawyer named, jesse, who is representing trump in
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force of a lawsuit, filed from the january 6th riot. he joined texas or sydney powell in representing michael flynn, the former national security advisor, and conspiracy theories. and he represented trump in an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking to overturn biden's victory in nevada. now this new lawsuit, now he's filed on behalf of donald trump, cleaned up, and i quote, the committee subpoenaed is invalid because the committee has no power investigation. and it's as the material should be protected by executive privilege. both of which seem, very hard arguments to make. but it's never been a problem for donald trump. failing lawsuits to drag out the dispute, so that you can win by decision has been his bread and butter for more than four decades. and the lawsuits could come to a halt of course, he was actually in new york giving us went up a decision on video, ppe can see is being sued over 2015 incident during a protest outside of trump tower. when trump was running for president.
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has been director of security, heat, it was accused of punching a protester in the head. when the protesters try to get his sign back. this video is being used as evidence in the lawsuit, the video is fairly clear. here's another look at that incident. that have been, the thing that you see there happening on video, which looks like certainly a fist connecting with someone's face in broad daylight. in front of everyone, that happened more than six years ago. and kind of a perfect example of the idea that just as the latest, justice tonight, because here we are six years later and trumpet a single your deposition, now? now he might finally face some consequences for what is party crowded that day. the question is, will be facing before the insurrection that he also whipped up live on television. congresswoman the law for prisons california's 19th congressional district, she is a former impeachment manager, now sits on the selected committee to investigate the january 6th insurrection, which tonight is being sued by the former president of the united
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states. congresswoman, welcome. congresswoman let me first start and ask, was this anticipated by the committee that this kind of intervention would happen? >> well it's not a complete surprise, although, it's really outside of with the statue anticipate. it had been mentioned that the president of the united states is not donald trump. it is joe biden, and joe biden has already made a determination that this material should be turned over. that if there is a claim of executive privilege, it falls before the need of the congress to get the information. that is definitive, there is a whole case on, above mcdermott and tried to make it at your own piece that former president trump is now on and loss. i think this case is weak, one but as you mentioned, the former president and more is to file a lawsuit and to try to drag things out, and to keep
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things hidden into escape accountability. >> >> the obvious attempt to try and sort of delay here, because i think there's kind of a statutory deadline in the minor deadlines contacted the ex president, said we are going to turn these, over giving him notice. he then sued, he's going to try to imagine just pull this down. whatever the, we're gonna talk about bannon in the second, but what is the strategy to make sure that we are not dealing with these turnovers 6:04 years from. now his deposition about a 2015 incident. >> well we will pursue this vigorously. but i think that the cases a week. one and we will make our case that really this lawsuit is towards the end of frivolous. and should not be allowed to counter what the president of the united states is already decided. which is that this material should be turned over. and that is what the law
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provides. you know, i remember when there was richard nixon who had tried to keep the tapes from the public. that case rocketed up to the supreme court and was decided very promptly, there was no need to allow this to go on forever. especially since the legal basis for this is all very weak. >> yes there's a little question for the judges that they feel some sense of piecing imperative here. or as a later language, that's probably gonna be on later, and up to the supreme court the members who were appointed by donald. trump their argument here is that your point about frivolous is that the legislative committee fails to meet the basic requirements, that to request documents in campaign polling data, what does congress hope to learn from all of this? this all the seem more political argumentation than legal. >> that is right. i just had a chance to read the
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complaint and i was not overwhelmed by it crafting. let's put it that way. we'll see what a court would say, but as i say, the law does not appear to be on the former president side, the judgment is already been made by the real president. and the committee needs to be this information a lot more to reach conclusion about what happened. and then what we need to do to reckon men legislatively, so that this can never happen again. >> so steve bannon is another individual who essentially is throwing his nose at the committee jurisdiction. we also have the ap, who obtained a letter to ben's, lawyer similarly i think is going with them -- there's no insertion here, it was said that at this point we are not aware of any thesis for your client's refusal who appeared for deposition. president biden's determination that in a certain's privileges
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not justify with the respect of the subject supplies your claims deposition testimony to any documents your clients may possess concerning either subject. that is deputy counsel ready to defend his lawyer. my understanding is that your committee has issued a report recommending contempt to vote on contempt for steve bannon, is that correct? >> that is correct. we'll be having a vote tomorrow evening in washington to consider a two big department justice of criminal content for mr. bennett. his actions here particularly outrageous, if he had some claims, i can imagine what it is, he's obligated to come in to the committee and make that claim. instead, he just blew us off. that is really not the procedure. there is a lot of things that have been reported that he did plotting with people, to really overthrow the constitution.
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we need to find out about that. obviously not covered with executive privilege. >> yes indeed it did work for the white house, and congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you so much. >> canadian covers the -- where she is looking about the -- katie benner, it is a former u.s. attorney and comment for los angeles time where he has called the committee the last hope against gop lies. katie benner, not entirely unanticipated but what is it matej kindly anticipated in terms of what happens down this term of this document production? >> sure, we'll wait to see what the court says as congressman pointed out. there is some potential weakness in this object. including the fact that it relies on the maze arts case. which was really all about trump being president at the time. he is now no longer president and we have the same president taught the rest of release of these records.
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so it's not only to be there for. it was quickly to make a determination so that we can move forward. the national archives is not only producing this set of record for the january 6th select committee, it was also proving us descent to the judiciary committee, which donald trump does talk to. so you could imagine the production and putting them together, and packaging, and making a basin. >> that is a really important point. the people that i trust on this, including my wife, and the house counsel's office and disordered peach from the atlantic privilege do not seem bowled over by the legal argumentation presented in the complaint. but it does seem like the point here is to lay. , and i guess to katie's point how do we expect this to be, treated and which court will be doing the treating? >> that is right, the only play here is a delay, professor shaw was quite right for the executive privilege, here he is extraordinarily wreak. but it's not about executive
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privilege. it's about trying to drag it out. and you can say of course, there's unfortunately not a really strong core between the weakness of acclaim, and how long it takes to go through the course. there is a problem that needs to be corrected by the legislation. but here you're talking district court, court of appeal for d.c., the entire court for a re-hearing. and then after the supreme court on the question, will there be a stay? that is really his player. and that's the main thing he request after fanciful claims that could never happen. so this first argument and requests first being obie pivotal. if it doesn't happen the committees suggest, i will go ahead with this, work the archivist will turn things over in november 12, unless there is a freeze theme music claimed by the ruling.
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you heard the district court order or the court of appeal once that happens everything changes. and things go into a sort of time warp that just doesn't accord with the speed that the committee needs in order to do its work, not just expeditiously but politically in time to have an impact by the 2022 election. >> right, and katie benner, as i'm understanding there's a falling no complaint. there is no nothing that has been ordered. there are not controlling law from the national archives standpoint, katie, is that they're gonna turn it over, right? until a judge tells them to hold their horses. >> yes. and another thing i say is that is correct, and another thing to keep in mind, is that what the committee is seeking to find out is what was happening around the election. because remember, january 6th wasn't attack on the capitol to stop and ride the election, so this is all about conversation,
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related to the election. the presidential power, one of the is privileged, and one of the things about executive privilege, is that it goes to the actual work of governing. these activities cannot be considered part of what you are doing in your role as the executive branch. so there is a question of whether or not the conversation for the committee is taking to understand actually have to do with donald trump's work is president, or if it's just anyone. so >> yes, and i just learned just recently just from diving in, but it's kind of funny to me how there is not a tunnel on this. a lot of this gets sorted out through a mechanism of a than traditional ruling. there is this obvious the big nixon, case the big news and stuff like that. but it's actually sort of new territory, legally. even if the claim is a bit weak. >> that is exactly right, executive privilege did not even exist until about 30 years ago. it really came, push really
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came to shove because it was always in negotiating compromise. it's trump's new contribution to the political, go away on skates to basically being completely enchanted. and forced the congress to try and mitigate in time to actually have it for completely that's the novelty that has been balling over the last few years. yeah that's an important point katie, just in terms of where we're at. this sort of inter brand struggle, is not completely new or novel at all. we have seen developments in the trump administration with a breath of their claims of executive printed village. the lack of any inter branch of negotiation or settlement, that's quite novel. and now you're in the same position except with a man in question, no longer holding the office of the presidency. >> absolutely. and you are also looking at a unique situation, where former president is saying that the election results were invalid.
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which is something that we have not seen before. and he's leaning into an architecture that harry just has alluded to, that over a series of decades to protect executive power. to protect the power president -- neither one other person in office to be torn up out by congress, so this architecture protection has been going down this road. and trump's been able to take advantage of that. i think people are frustrated by what's happening -- when they're frustrated with the pace of investigation, have to go back to the constitution and understand that ultimately though, the power to take someone out of office, to take them out, to put them in office, actually lies with voters. so as people become more and more frustrated with the pace of investigation, or they're frustrated that the investigations are happening, keep in mind, it really is all about elections, at the end of the day. >> all right katie benner -- harry -- thank you both, appreciate it. >> this morning colin powell, the first black secretary -- at the age of 84 after
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suffering complications from covid-19. and almost immediately the, news inspired a wave of nonsense. we'll talk about all of this next. we'll talk about all of this next
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colin powell was a singular figure in our time, to my mind one of the most interesting public figures in -- paul was born in -- grew up in this south bronx actually, he served 35 years as a soldier, rose to the absolute highest ranks. and today powell died, at the
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age of 84, from covid related complications. and what you'll be reading and hearing about a lot i think lately, is how his career was marred as -- speech he gave in 2003 at the united nations. where he made the bush administrations for case for invading iraq. after the -- it became clear that iraq did not have the weapons of mass destruction that mr. powell had described in his speech before the world. and in much of his argument had been made on faulty intelligence. but powell is one of the few people involved in that utter debacle -- to at the very least publicly seek redemption. speaking at harvard in 2015, he said quote, i will regret it. i always will always regret it. it was a terrible mistake on all our parts. powell also reflected on how he was misled at the u.s. representation -- to learn that it was drafted -- the crumbling of that deception, the greatest and disinformation campaign of its time, played an important role i think and putting on the desk to tractor
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it to where we are today. paul's family confirmed and their announcement of his death that he was vaccinated. a spokesman also said his immune system had been compromised by a cancer called multiple myeloma. and yet, inevitably, with the information landscape we find ourselves in, 18 years after that fateful presentation at the un, drafted by chief cheney's office to further their agenda of war, those seeking to discredit vaccines used powell's death to further their agenda. >> we're seeing data from across the world. from europe, from the united kingdom. the fully vaccinated people are being vaccinated, the fully vaccinated people are dying from covid. and here we have the very high-profile example, that's going to require more truth, more truth from our government, morris true for martial theaters as well. >> another fox news anchor wrote as well -- now deleted -- the fact that colin powell died from a breakthrough covid infection raises new concerns about how effective our long term. he later deleted that and apologized -- the context here is that we're
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experiencing the deadliest bout of misinformation in all of our lifetimes, around precisely the vaccine. much of it coming from -- that push the lies from the met weapons of mass destruction, though they were not alone in that. here are the actual facts, according to the send -- out of the more than 187 million people have been fully backs in the u.s.. 0.00 zero 4% died from a breakthrough infection. that's pretty small. now to his credit, colin powell pendant -- but he waited up interact, the way we ended up interact, is not some phenomenally -- it's actually a key leg -- where equally monstrous deceptions about the pandemic are leaning towards needless deaths every day. michelle goldberg, who is an opinion columnist for the new york times. many house -- and streaming peacock. michelle, there was a moment where i saw the news about powell's death, and i was sad. and i reflected on his life,
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and back to iraq. and then i saw that there was covid complications, and my immediate threat was that certainly he was vaccinated, and certainly now will become -- and it didn't take that long for that to bear out. >> yeah, i think it was obvious how the wright was going to use this. and, there's this sort of tragic irony here, in that put colin powell at the time he made that speech the un, occupied a unique role that maybe no one will ever occupy again. as a validator, who was trusted by almost everyone. right, when he made that speech, it had this impact on the american public opinion. all of a sudden a whole bunch of people, obviously not everyone, but a lot of people -- who are skeptical of bush and skeptical of cheney, said there must be something here, because powell is saying it. and with the gift with the iraq war, and i had such a huge role in destroying that kind of trust, and any validator's. that brings us to the place we are now, where there is no one you can think of that you can
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go up to tv, and say believe me about these vaccines. and it would bring the whole country along. >> that is such a great point mattie, and i think the landscape we find ourselves in is poorer for it. generally speaking. but also speaks to how problematic would powell is a part of was. >> yeah, i'm so glad. chris, you drew a straight line from the iraq war to the current covid debacle. because there's a couple of ironies here, one is which very traffic tragic. colin powell was part of an administration that misled the american people, into a war that cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. and then today, he dies from complications from a disease that spread unchecked through america, because another american -- republican administration misled the american people. that's the first irony. the second irony, is as you point out, is fox news here. because as a rock, as michelle pointed out, it was really destroyed americans trusted
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media long before donald trump came on the scene. and all media organizations, have to own up to their -- role in that. but fox was at the center of that propaganda, republican administration kept propaganda campaign. a few years ago, chris there, was a poll that came out. that showed even in 2015, 52% of fox viewers believed that we had found -- in 2015. compared to four feet 14% -- so it's very important to point out here, the same lies that were told about iraq, that we're told believed on a completely different level by fox viewers -- same thing on covid. you seem with the ship -- again, and again, fox news is dismissing information machine. and we go hello cow silly they are. no, people actually die as a result of watching fox news. whether it's going to warner up, or the pandemic. >> and there's something about powell's life track, unlike a lot of these folks --
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that george bush's like we were euros in error, -- that we i always remember. powell once said, we were wrong, and was quite honest about that. and i also think michele, that he -- when you think about the trajectory of misinformation his, endorsed mina barack obama in 2008, with such a huge moment politically, for that someone's -- someone that you noted -- to me, also kind of pc shy certain political tendency of certain kind of republicans towards essentially the democratic coalition, that we now associate with donald trump. and in some way started before that. >> well, i think you have a divide among the people in -- who are in the georgia view bush administration. between those who had really a sort of reverent attitude towards authority, overly reverent authority. and that substance has carried over to the cia, to the state
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department, to all the institutions that were demonized by donald trump. and then you had people who long before you had those -- donald trump on t-shirts and flags in the like. there were very similar kind of drawings of propaganda about george w. bush. so you also had a section of bush people, who kind of projected on to him. his ludicrous vanities about masculinity's. and also really love the idea that as dick cheney said, we create our own reality. and so, i think you can see that in the public at -- >> the other thing here, but you want to say something, go ahead. >> i just want to say something -- before we run out of time, an important point, you mentioned he was honest about his role. i think he was she honest about his role in the wind's speech. -- about his regret over the speech, but let me be clear to your viewers, colin powell never disown the war. he defended the invasion to the end, he never apologized to the iraqi people.
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he -- it was faulty intelligence. but he never actually does distill in the war. >> it's a really important point, and i figured i was gonna say to about watching this play out in the reporting on powell, and the disinformation that we found ourselves in. is that, also his death, is a reminder that there are people who are vulnerable, even with vaccination. that they're immunocompromised people. and that actually, this project that were engaged in, that we haven't done a great job collectively as a people. is a collective project for all of us to do our part to keep people are safe. to particular those individuals who are immunocompromised and there are millions of them. another people who face elevated rick's from this. and to turn around and take, while all he died and he's vaccinated, as this raises questions, is really kind of awful in a particular way. >> it's so horrific and so irresponsible. for that to happen so quickly this morning, and by the way as
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you pointed out chris, it came from the straight new side. it didn't come from tucker haro since quitter account, it came from the so-called fox news. whatever fox news has done to encourage anti-vaxxers essentially, in recent months in particular, is one of the most reckless decisions by a media organizations in my lifetime. >> yeah, i could not agree more, i continue to be astounded day after day. michigan will barrack and -- >> thank you both. >> just ahead, the dark money groups -- trying to get a republican -- by exploiting anger at school board meetings. an amazing reporting after this. d meetings an amazing reporting after this this (engines revving, cars hitting one another.) (sfx: continued vehicle calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind.
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the show, school board meetings are quickly kind of the latest flash point in the culture war. the sustained outrage directed at local leaders from everything to mask and school, the critical race theories, to lgbtq rights. and it's almost as though the
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outrage tends to be framed as an out rage from concerned parents. just take a look and listen at one concerned parents was made multiple appearances on fox news. >> i am a concerned parent. i am not an activist. and there's anyone who knows me. i have always been identified as a democrat. >> i am not a plant is a really amazing thing to say. in an interview like. got that man harry jackson is a virginia parent, that's true, fox news looked up some important context, they're as journalist and reports like to do on a new piece today. jackson is also on the leadership team in the four group called parents defending education. and dark money organization for us established this year with the goal to quote, reclaim our schools from activists imposing harmful agendas, despite calling itself a national grass furred organization. parents are defending it multiple times to win dark money groups from the political group. which has been bankrolling movement in conservatives from this country for more than a
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decade at least. the founder of pants defending it education is, nicole neely. she is also the president of a so-called grass group call speech first. and as a nation first reported back in 2018 that group's board of directors includes a former head of a cop actress and two conservative attorneys from coach funded programs. before he joined parents attend -- terry jackson was the cofounder of coalition for t.j.. a different group of conservative virginia parents who sued to block racially admission standards in a virginia high school. that group's representative in this lawsuit by the conservative pacific legal foundation, which surprised, had received 1 million dollars from the charles gold foundation in 2019. all of this is important for resist beyond simple financial transparency. this sort of thing happens. there's also the very lucky -- toward school boards or many of these issues. the anger is being both stoked and channeled by republican >>
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and these dark wooden groups, just look no further than virginia governor's race for republican candidate glenn youngkin, tried to make the election a referendum about standing up to the school boards. just listen to him earlier this year speaking to harry jackson's group of concern parents. >> parents have come together all over the country minh wealth, in order to stand up against school boards. we must find a way to elect conservative voices to these very important seats. >> the connection surrounding this conservative organization aggressors appear to run school boards, from a reported were untangle little. next.
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you work for us you work for us. hear our voice hear our voices. hear our voice. >> that chaotic scene in 2009 congresswoman kathy casters, one of many protesters unfolded across the country. in response to the formal care act, of the tea party turn from
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the movement into political juvenile. but today we know it wasn't activists a local feel that transformation. groups like american for prosperity, funded by billionaire conservative, amplified the tea party through dark money. as a writer wrote in 2015, the cook rotors have almost certainly spent a raised more than a billion dollars to successfully bend over the two national parties in america to their will. the long rise the tea party movement was orchestrated, well funded, and delivered. we are not seeing a similar phenomenon play on in the school boards across the country. a leaked letter obtained by the washington post throws how a kock-group -- are being weaponized by kock-groups, and to sway in republicans favor. that piece was written by a founder unpopular judd legum,. it was striking how similar the
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tea party protester in 2009 start to a lot of it's seen by the scope for, they have very similar, fives and in some cases they have the same people involved, and the same organization, what are these organizations, who funds them? whether they have to? >> one of that we don't know the answer to and that's by design the main organization that we've talked about in your intro parents defending indication was only founded in march of this year. even the limited information that you can learn about a nonprofit like that won't be available for two plus years. and that's not a mistake. now what you can do is you can look at the people involved. and you can look at what their history is. and as we know the person who is in charge of the prints defending education. which is the primary group operating nationwide, that specifically in virginia focusing on the glenn youngkin race has extensive contacts for
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the organization. really the spent the entire organization working for a kock-, like an organization so you can really put two and two together and figure out what's going on. >> i want to be clear. this is not some sort of conspiracy and it's not astroturf. it is political. it's what political organization looks. like there is some anger on the ground, there's a lot of focus on the right-wing media, and these groups come in particularly in the right-wing they use dark money more often than not. to essentially mold and shape insisting and cultivate. and push this agenda. and it's interesting to me that this is where they have landed on school boards. and not just with one issue, but sort of across a variety of different issues. >> well that's true. not everyone it's going to the school board meetings is a paid operative. but some of them that were here on tv are --
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somewhat like i learned in the course of this is that there are parents who are genuinely concerned about critical race theory, and other theories about whether or not that is accurate. but i think that what this is really, i think that the tea party analogy is a, it's a re-branding of the [inaudible] . it's a lot of the people who are upset about these cultural trends. and they're not repackaging it. this is especially important in virginia work glenn youngkin is seeking to mobilize that same constituency voters without invoking trump's name without alienating the conservative voters who might be turned off by trump. and that's when we see this planed out in virginia, where it is the key battleground for the virginia governor's race. >> yes, that is a really good point that essentially this is
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politically useful for the very specific reason, and particularly in the virginia race where this again has been a key part thing that youngkin's been banking on about. you don't want to alienate voters with too much trump, too much maga. iconography, because it's a state that joe biden won by ten points. but you want to martial that sort of grassroots rate. until this weekend the convenient way to do it, in this new show that we're seeing. it becomes essentially a proxy for the young campaign. we're seeing polling, cbs said that 62% of people said virginia school curriculum on recent history could be a major factor in how they vote. which i think it's a testament to how effective some of this organizing has been. >> yes, and youngkin has leaning into this. he has been made, or one of his main ads's plan to repeat on cable television online, it's based on an attack that originated out of the school port. he will be appearing tomorrow. in fairfax county. to talk about these issues and
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parents right. this is really the closing argument. not only for young, can but for candidates republican candidates down the line. they think that this is the winning issue. the point that i was trying to expose, or the issue that i was trying to expose is that a lot of these issues are contrived. in that they don't reflect a real change in the school system. they really felt like the change in political strategy, whereas a lot of these things were just happening. they were considered in nonpartisan, it was just the administration of schools that are not being charged. and really put under a magnifying glass in a way that is intended to extract massive amount of political benefits. >> yes, and what is really fascinating, when you look at the mcauliffe line that he said about vetoing a bill around the sort of curriculum books that had to do with an lgbtq. a book, i believe, and then
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you've got this sort of critical race panic, and then the masking stuff. and some of those, there's not really a real conceptual connection between the masking and the critical race theory. they're not distinct, issues want us to do with public health and the suppression of a respiratory infection among children. and the other one has to deal with very profound and deep political questions about our history. the fact that they have both been the target sort of telling you what's driving this, more than the individual issue itself. >> yes, and what's really motivated this latest controversy, in virginia. our two books, they're actually award-winning books. they do depicts some of the sexual leads same-sex, explosive material. but they've been around since 2019. they are coming up now. and they are being viewed as an attack of false attack, on terry mcauliffe for vetoing the
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bill that he did in 2016. so we are picking whatever issues we can from whatever time period, we are putting them all together and seeing with sticks what they managed to get a soundbite and match what's really driving in the closing. of this virginia admitted to oriole race as we enter into the closing week. it has really been a remarkable how successful the success has been. >> judd legum, great reporting, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up what you need to know about so-called natural immunity, why it isn't an excuse to skip getting vaccinated, that's next. t.
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of the anti-vax candidates for governor of texas, i'll west, to ended up hospitalized with covid. today, we are happy to report he's out of the hospital and has recovered from his infection.
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but while he was still in the hospital -- he tweeted something that caught my eye, quote, i now have and double immunity and now antibodies. -- you might notice that natural immunity has become sort of a bus term. >> the mandate is over broad, it makes no accommodation for instance of people who had coronavirus. if you have natural immunity. >> look at the fact that they took and they refused to take a natural immunity, even though more studies are showing that it's probably better than then immunizations. >> -- >> it is in probably preferable to have natural immunity, then vaccine immunity. >> why would i get a vaccine, why would i get vaccinated when you know i have better immunity than somebody who's been vaccinated. >> the argument they make is that essentially if you get sick with a coronavirus answer via your body produces antibodies -- so i do have to get a vaccine on top of that? and i've been following this discussion, and actually made
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me think what is the science say about what vaccines do for people who have recovered from the coronavirus, how necessary is it for them? and which last longer, vaccination or antibodies from an infection? to get to the bottom of that, i want to talk to -- infection the disease epidemiologist. -- special pathogen programs at you new york health and hospital systems. so doctor, let's start with the top line about what we know. about the immunity conferred by having gotten through about of covid, and immunity confer by the vaccines. >> well first, i think we're not talking apples to apples, we're talking -- you know, the generated from covid-19 infection first, getting infected itself you're putting yourself at risk for serious disease and complications and death. that's not even talking about the potential of long covid. -- it is very -- those two things that i will point out, first is actually
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generating -- and the second, is this strength and durability of that immune or response. and held allen babble live. so first, we focus on generating that immune response. people that are actually infected it difference from person to person, it is a lot of variability. it depends on the severity of the illness. it depends -- on the response that it generates. the second aspect of it is that -- between age and health status, and so there's a lot of unpredictability with natural infection. and that's not the say that individuals that have the natural infections, don't have a robust response. we have seen that. some studies have shown that ten to 36% don't even -- mean they don't have that long term response, immune response. so that's concerning. >> yeah, my understanding of the data, the point you said so there's a huge chunk of people, a really significant chunk, and the data goes all over the place, that do get covid, who get out of it, and don't really
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have the presence of the antibodies that you would it anticipate and inspect. so, there are not really immunized as far as we know. and then there's really the question about how long they last and what do we know about how long, if you do create these antibodies in your body, how long that lasts versus the vaccine? . >> so the longevity of our immune response is one of those things that we're still finding out, both with natural infection and with vaccinations. but the one thing to note, is that with vaccinations you can boost your immune response, safely. to have a better and more reese bo immune response to counter the potential infection. with natural infection you can't boost that. so that means you're gonna have to naturally get reinfected, and you don't want to go through that for the reasons i mentioned cause your risk and a lot there. it's like playing russian roulette, it is a big gamble right there. >> -- more than a third of the covid
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infections resulted in zero protective antibodies. natural immunity faced faster than vaccine him unity. actually i'm unity alone is less than half as effective the natural immunity plus vaccination. -- as far as we can tell, added to the fact, if you've had covid and also getting vaccinated, in terms of the total level of protection you're getting. whereas the argument you're being made, you saw like joe rogan, why do i need it if i've already got it, to the best that we can describe the it seems like they're saying -- to get vaccinated. is that our understanding right now? >> that's correct. it's unfortunate that natural immunity is being politicized, just like masks or being politicized. it's really unfortunate. but the bottom line is the vaccinations are the safest way to build that remain response -- and if you've had natural infection and you get the covid-19 vaccine, you have even a better immune response. i'm in that category. i was unfortunately affected last year in july, and i'm fully vaccinated.
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so i have a pretty robust immune response. pretty good data on that is. well >> so there's a very interesting point i want to make, what you are saying and what a lot of people in public health are saying, is that there's something insidious in this idea of natural immunity. because when you get a natural immunity as you get covid. and what we've seen, a little bit, is the chicken pox party, even in fact there's people who have cited that. -- who was on the microphone saying i have covid right now and that is infinitely preferable. the kind of logic that they're actually pounding is it's okay to get covid and then you'll get it and then you'll get natural immunity and your help this thing spread. and that's precisely that sort of heard immunity we saw from scott atlas, trump advisor, that was so disastrous in terms of guiding policy here in the u.s.. >> that's exactly right. this is really unfortunate that this is a a debate that we're having again and again. and the science really speaks
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for itself right now, in terms of which one is better, which one is giving you more predictable and reliable outcome. through natural infection you're risking a whole lot, not just yourself but for the community. the one point that i'll make is that all of the studies that we're seeing, first -- the percy delta, so delta was a big game changer here, but also in terms of infection as well. we're looking at the studies that were connected, a lot of them are looking at the survivors, they're not look at the people that died. 700,000 americans that died of covid-19 -- and that also -- if you just look at the number of people that have died, that's through natural infection, so that speaking volume right. they're >> right, so that's a classic example -- i guess, the final point here would just be that the, collective reason a policy reason, but even an individual reason there's good dating to suggest that if you've had covid vaccinating gets makes sense. it protects you against --
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a comprehensive way to boost immunity in the future that is not just a natural reinfection. >> that's absolutely much more reliable, and much more durable. we'll probably see the longevity of our immune immune >> good evening, chris. thank you. much appreciated. thanks for joining us at home. happy to have you here. president biden tonight has ordered flags across the country flown at half-staff to honor the legacy of general colin powell who has died today at the age of 84. because of general powell's remarkable record of service to the united states, his status is just a singular figure in modern public service. american flags will fly

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