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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  October 18, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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confront our history, and not just talk to people who sound like you and look like you, but to people who don't. we're not going to be able to move forward as a society. >> one group of people can't be the only ones to talk about it. gl it's all of our problem. >> erica, rachel, congratulations, it's a great film. civil war, 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. that's ""the reidout,"" "all in is up next. the disgraced ex-president, what we know about donald trump's last ditch appeal to the supreme court. then colin powell succumbs to coronavirus complications at age 84, and the vaccine misinformation machine kicks into gear. >> here we have a very high profile example that is going to require more truth, more truth from our government. how dark money groups that catalyzed obama era tea party
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protests are doing the same with school board protests, and why so-called natural immunity still isn't an excuse to not get vaccinated. >> why would i get vaccinated when you know i have better immunity than someone who's been vaccinated? >> when "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. for months now the january 6th select committee has been trying to get all sorts of information and documents from the national archivists that keeps the documents of the trump white house about the trump white house's communications leading up to the insurrection. not surprisingly, donald trump has been claiming executive privilege all along even though he is no longer the executive. and even though the current president, joe biden, has formally declined to invoke executive privilege to protect trump's records from congressional investigators. it is a problem for donald trump because he apparently really does not want anyone to get
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those records, so just a few hours ago, the ex-president sued to block the national archives from handing over any documents that the january 6th commission is seeking. the lawsuit was filed by a virginia lawyer named jesse benal, representing trump in four civil lawsuits filed over the january 6th riot. he joined texas lawyer sidney powell in representing michael flynn, the conspiracy theorist, and represented trump in an unsuccessful lawsuit to overturn biden's victory in nevada. this new lawsuit he has filed on behalf of donald trump claims that quote the committee's subpoena is invalid because the committee has no power investigation, and it says the material should be protected by executive privilege. both of which seem like very hard arguments to make, but that has never been a problem for donald trump. filing out lawsuits has been his bred and butter for more four
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decades. lawsuits can cut both ways. today donald trump was in new york giving a sworn deposition on video tape because he's being sued over a 2015 incident during a protest outside trump tower, when trump was running for president. his then director of security keith shiler is a accused of punching a protester in the head when the protester tried to get his sign back. this video is being used as evidence in the lawsuit. the video is fairly clear, i think. here's another look at that incident. that happened, that thing you see there happening on video which looks like certainly a fist connecting with someone's face in broad daylight in front of everyone, that happened more than six years ago, and kind of a perfect example of the idea that justice delayed is justice denied because here we are six years later and trump's got a civil deposition over it now? now, he might finally face some consequences for what his body guard did that day, will he face
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any for the insurrection that he also whipped up live on television. congresswoman zoe loft gren, now sits on the select committee to investigate the january 6th insurrection, which tonight is being sued by the former president of the united states, congresswoman, welcome. congresswoman, let me first start and just ask, was this anticipated by the committee that this kind of intervention would happen? >> well, it's not a complete surprise although it's really outside of what the statute anticipates has been mentioned. the president of the united states is not donald trump. it's joe biden. and joe biden has already made a determination that this material should be turned over, that if there's a claim of executive privilege, it falls before the need of the congress to get the information. that's definitive. there's case law on it.
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richard nixon tried to make the same case that former president trump is now and lost. i think this case is a weak one, but as you've mentioned, the former president's m.o. is to file lawsuits and to try and drag things out and to keep things hidden and to escape accountability. >> the obvious attempt to sort of delay here, because i think there's a statutory deadline where basically my understanding is the national archives contacted the ex-president and said we're going to turn these over, giving him notice. he sues, he's going to try to imagine, slow this down. i mean, what are -- we're going to talk about bannon in a second. what's the strategy here to make sure we're not, you know, dealing with these being turned over six years ago from now, like this deposition about a 2015 incident? >> well, we will pursue this vigorously, but i think the case is a weak one, and we will make our case that really this
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lawsuit is towards the edge of frivolous and should not be allowed to counter what the president of the united states has already decided, which is that this material should be turned over and that's what law provides. you know, i remember when there was richard nixon tried to keep the tapes from the public. that case rocketed up to the supreme court and was decided very promptly. there's no need to allow this to go on forever, especially since the legal basis for it is so very weak. >> yeah, there is a little question about do the judges feel some sense of, you know, pacing imperative here, or do they let it languish, the arguments here to your point, about frivolous. the legislative committee fails to meet the basic requirement of
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purpose, not just overly broad requests documents, including campaign data, what does congress hope to learn from all of this. this all does seem more political argumentation than legal? >> that's right. you know, i just had a chance to read the complaint and i was not overwhelmed by its crafting. let's put it that way. we'll see what a court will say, but as they say, the law does not appear to be on the former president's side. the statute is not on his side. the judgment has already been made by the real president, and the committee needs this information and a lot more to reach conclusions about what happened and then what we need to recommend legislatively so that this never can happen again. >> so steve bannon's another individual who's essentially thumbing his nose at the committee's jurisdiction. we have the ap obtained a letter
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from the white house to bannon's lawyer basically saying a similar thing to what they have said in the national archivist, there's no assertion here. it says at this point, we are not aware of any basis for your client's refusal, president biden's determination that an assertion of privilege is not justified with respect to these subjects applies to your client's deposition testimony and to any documents your client may possess concerning either subject. that's deputy counsel jonathan su writing to bannon's lawyer. my understanding is your committee has issued a report recommending a vote on contempt for steve bannon is that correct? >> that's correct. we'll be having a vote after votes tomorrow evening in washington to consider whether to refer to the department of justice criminal contempt for mr. bannon. his actions here are particularly outrageous. you know, if he has some claim, i can't imagine what it is, he's
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obligated to come into the committee and make that claim. instead he just blew us off. that's really not the procedure. you know, there's a lot of things that has been reported that he did, plotting with people to really overthrow the constitution. we need to find out about that. that's obviously not covered by the executive privilege. >> yes. he didn't even work for the white house. congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you very much. katie bennett covers the department of justice where she has written about the back and forth. harry litman with the los angeles time, called the january 6th committee the last best hope against gop lies. katie, this, again, not entirely unanticipated but what does it mean mechanically in terms of what happens now in terms of this document production? >> sure. well, we'll wait to see what the courts say as congressman
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lofgren pointed out, there's some, you know, potential weaknesses in this lawsuit, including the fact that it relies on the mazar's case which was about trump being president at the time, and he's no longer president and the sitting president has authorized the release of these records. this may not be a long protracted court battle. it's possible the courts could quickly make a determination, and we could move forward. the national archives is not only producing this set of records for the january 6th select committee, it's also producing a similar set of records for the senate judiciary committee which donald trump has not sued so you can imagine production, gathering records together, putting them together in a package to be sent is going to happen. >> that's a really important point. harry, you know, the people that i trust on this, including my wife kate shaw who is in the white house counsel's office and just wrote a piece for the atlantic on executive privilege do not seem bolled over by the evidence presented in the claim.
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to katie's point, how expeditiously can we expect this to be treated and which court will be doing the treating? >> that's right. the only play here is a delay, professor shaw is quite right that the executive privilege here is extraordinarily weak, but that's not about executive privilege. it's only about trying to drag it out, and you say what court. there's unfortunately not a really strong accord between the weakness of a claim, and how long it takes to go through the courts. there's a problem that needs to be corrected by legislation, but here you're talking district court, court of appeals for d.c., the entire court for a re-hearing, and then up to the supreme court, all on the question, will there be a stay. that's really his play here, and that's the main thing he requests after fanciful claims for relief that could never happen. so this first argument and request for stay will be pivotal.
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if it doesn't happen, the committee should just, and will just go ahead with its work. the archivist will turn things over november 12th unless and until there's a freeze the music claim by, i mean, ruling by either the district court or the court of appeals. once that happens, everything changes and things go into a sort of time warp that just doesn't accord with the speed that the committee needs in order to do its work, not just expeditiously but politically in time to have an impact by the 2022 election. >> right. i mean, and my understanding now, this is just a -- this is a file of a complaint, there is no stay that's been ordered. right now, the controlling law here from the national archives standpoint, katie is that they're going to turn it over. until a judge tells them to hold their horses. >> yeah, and another thing, i think, that's correct, and
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another thing to keep in mind, too, is what the committee is seeking to find out about is what was happening around the election because remember, january 6th was an attack on the capitol to stop the peaceful transfer of power via the election. so this is all about conversations related to the election, and presidential power, one of the things, or excuse me, executive privilege, one of the things about executive privilege is it goes toward the actual work of governing. campaign activity is generally not considered part of what you are doing in your role as head of the executive branch. there are questions about whether or not the conversations the committee is seeking to understand actually have to do with donald trump's work as president or his campaign work. >> i have learned this recently just from diving in from kate's piece, but it's kind of funny to me, harley. there's not a ton of law on this. a lot of this gets sorted out from mechanisms other than judicial rulings. there's obviously the big nixon
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case, mazars and stuff like that, but it's actually sort of new territory legally even if the claims appear weak? >> that's exactly right. executive privilege didn't even exist until about 30 years ago, and it rarely came, push rarely came to shove because there was always a negotiated compromise. it's trump's new contribution to the political and legal landscape to basically be completely intransigent and force the congress to try to litigate in time to actually have the claims not foiled completely. that's the novelty that has been so effective over the last few years. >> yeah, that's an important point, katie, just in terms of where we're at. this sort of inter-branch struggle is not completely new or novel at all. it's just that we have seen developments in the trump administration with the breadth of their claims of executive privilege, the lack of any sort of inter-branch accommodation or
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negotiated settlement that's quite novel, and now we are in the same position except with the man in question no longer holding the office of the presidency. >> absolutely. and you're also looking at a unique situation where former president is saying that the election results were invalid, which is something that we have not seen before, and he's leaning in to an architecture that harry has just alluded to that was built up over the last series of decades to protect executive power, to protect the president by democrats and republicans, neither wanted their person in office to be torn apart by congress, so this architecture of protection has grown and grown and grown, and trump has been able to take advantage of that. i think when people are frustrated by the pace of what's happening in the courts, and they're frustrated by the pace of investigations, you have to look back to the constitution and understand that ultimately, though, the power to take somebody out of office, to give them power, put them in office, actually lies with voters. so as people become more and more frustrated with the pace of investigations or frustrated
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with the fact that investigations are happening, and they think they're witch hunts, it's all about elections. >> katie benner from the "new york times," harry litman, thank you both, appreciate it. this morning, colin powell, the country's first black secretary of state died at the age of 84 after suffering complications from covid-19. and almost immediately the news inspired a new wave of vaccine nonsense. we'll talk about all of it next. nonsense we'll talk about all of it next. this flag isn't backwards it's facing this way because it's moving forward just like the men and women who wear it on their uniforms and the country it represents. they're all only meant to move one direction which is why we fly it this way on the flanks of the all-new grand wagoneer. moving boldly and unstoppably forward.
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. colin powell was a singular figure of our time. to my mind he had one of the most interesting public lives in recent memory. born to jamaican immigrants, grew up in the south bronx, served 35 years as a soldier, rosed to absolute highest ranks and today powell died at the age of 84 from covid related complications and what you will be reading and hearing about a lot i think rightly is how his career was marred as "the new york times" put it in a speech he gave in 2003 at the united nations where he made the bush administration's case for invading iraq. after the invasion, it became clear that iraq did not have the weapons of mass destruction, and much of his argument had been base ds on faulty intelligence. powell is one of the few people involved in the utter debacle and deception to at the very least publicly seek redemptions to enup to his role. he said quote i will regret it. i will always regret t. it was a
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terrible mistake on all of our parts. powell reflected on how he was mislead of the presentation discovering later it was drafted by the vice president dick cheney's office. the crumbling of the deception, the greatest disinformation campaign of its time played an important role i think of putting us on the trajectory of where we are today. powell's family confirmed in their announcement of his death that he was vaccinated. a spokeswoman also said his immune system had been compromised by a cancer called multiple myeloma, and yet, inevitably with the information landscape we find ourselves in, 18 years after that fateful presentation at the u.n. drafted by dick cheney's officer to further their agenda of war, those seeking to discredit vaccines used powell's death to further their agenda. >> we're seeing data from across the world. we're seeing data from europe, the united kingdom, that fully vaccinated people are being hofld, and fully vaccinated people are dieing from covid, and we have a high profile example that is going to require more truth from our government,
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our health leaders as well. >> another fox news anchor who wrote in a deleted tweet, the fact that colin powell died from a breakthrough covid infection raises concerns. he apologized, saying he's provaccine, a reporter not an anchor. we are experiencing the deadliest bout of misinformation in our lifetimes, much of it coming from the same network that pushed the lies about the weapons of mass destruction, though they were not alone in that. here are the actual facts from the centers of disease control and prevention, out of the more than 187 million people who had been fully vaccinated, .004% died from a breakthrough infection. that's pretty small. colin powell repented for the monstrous deception of the iraq war. the way we ended up in iraq is was not an anomaly, equally
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monstrous about the pandemic are leading to needless deaths every day. michelle, there is a moment where i saw the news alert about powell's death, and i was saturday and i reflected on his life and back to iraq, and then i said it was from covid complications, and i immediately thought certainly he was vaccinated and certainly this will become a kuj ole, and it didn't take long to bear out. >> it was obvious how the right was going to use this, and there's a sort of tragic irony here in that colin powell at the time he made that speech to the u.n. occupied a unique role that i think nobody will ever occupy again as a validator, who was trusted by everyone. when he made the speech, it had an effect on public opinion.
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a lot f people who have been skeptical of bush and cheney said there must be something here because powell is saying it. and the iraq war i think had a huge role in destroying that kind of trust in any value day tors,. that brings us to the place we are no. there's no one who could go on tvr and say believe me about these vaccines and it would bring the whole country along. >> that is such a great point, and i think the landscape we find ourselves in is poorer for it generally speaking but also speaks to how problematic powell was a part of was. >> yeah, i'm so glad you, chris, drew a straight line from the iraq war to the current covid debacle because there's a couple of ironies here, one of which is very tragic, the first is that colin powell was part of an administration that misled the american people into a war that cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, and then today he dies from complications from
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a disease that spread unchecked through america because another republican administration misled the american people. that's the first irony. the second irony is as you point out, the fox news role here because iraq, as michelle pointed out, is what really has destroyed america's trust in the media long before donald trump came on the scene, and all media organizations have a role to have to own up to the role in that, including this network. fox was at the center of that propaganda. there was a poll that came out that show even in 2015, 52% of fox news viewers believed that we had found wmds in iraq, in 2015, compared to 14% of msnbc viewers, i would point out. the same lies that were told about iraq that were believed on a completely different level by fox viewers compared to everything else, same thing on covid, you see it with the studies down at the start of the pandemic. again and again, fox news is
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this misinformation machine, and we go look how silly they are, how eccentric they are. people actually die as a result of watching fox news, whether it's going to war in iraq or the pandemic. sorry. >> there's something about powell's life trajectory. unlike a lot of folks that are to this day, george bush is like, well, we were heroes in error. that's the line that i always remember. we were heroes in error about the iraq war. powell said we were wrong and was quite honest about that, and i also think, michelle, wheng about the trajectory of misinformation, his endorsement of barack obama in 2008 was such a huge moment politically, for the same reason you noted. this is a repository of trust, and also kind of presaged a certain political tendency of a certain kind of republican towards the democratic coalition that we now associate with donald trump in some ways started before that.
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>> well, i think you have a divide among the people who are in the george w. bush administration, between those who had a really sort of, i don't know, reverence attitude towards authority, overly reverent attitude towards authority, and that carried over to the cia or the state department, all of the institutions that were demonized by donald trump, and then you had people who, i mean, long before you had those pictures of a muscle bound donald trump on t-shirts and flags and the like, they were very similar kind of drawings, and propaganda about george w. bush, you also had a section of bush people who kind of projected on to him these ludicrous fantasies about masculinity, and also really loved the idea that as i think dick cheney said, we create our own reality. and so i think you can see that divide in the republican party today. >> the other thing here, you want to say something, go ahead. >> i just want to jump in, just
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before we run out of time. important point. you mentioned he was honest about his role. i think he was honest about his role with the u.n. speech. his quote at harvard is about his regret to the speech. colin powell never disowned the war. he never apologized to the iraqi people. he believed he was following his commander in chief and never disowned the war. >> that was an important point. and watching this play out and the reporting on powell and the disinformation we find ourselves in is that, you know, also his death is a reminder that there are people who are vulnerable even with vaccination, that there are immunocompromised people, and actually this project that we are engaged in which we have not done a great job collectively as a people, is a collective project for all of us to do our part to keep people safe, particularly those individuals who are immunocompromised and there are millions of them, and other people who face elevated risk from this.
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and to turn around and say, well, he died and he was vaccinated, oh, this raises questions is really kind of awful in a particular way. >> it's so horrific. and so irresponsible, for that to happen so quickly this morning, and by the way, as you pointed out, chris, it came from the straight news side. it didn't come from tucker carlson's twitter account. it's horrific, what fox news has done to encourage anti-vaxx sentiment is one of the most reckless decisions by a media organization in my lifetime. >> i could not agree more. i continue to be astounded day after day and night after night. michelle goldberg and medhi hasan, thank you both. ties to the koch brothers is angry at school board meetings. that reporting after this. y at s that reporting after this. s her.
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as we've covered extensively on this show, school board meetings are quickly becoming the latest flash point in the right wing culture war, with sustained outrage directed at local leaders on everything from masks and schools to critical race theory and lgbtq rights, the outrage is an organic grass roots protest from concerned parents, take a listen to one self-identified concerned parent who has made multiple parents on fox news. >> i am a concerned parent. i am not a plant. i am not an activist. as anyone who knows me, i have always been identified as a democrat. >> i am not a plant is a really an amazing thing to say in an interview like that. that man, harry jackson is a virginia parent, that's true. fox news left out some important context as journalist judd lagham reports in a great piece today. jackson is on the leadership team of a group called parents defending. a dark money organization with
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the goal to quote reclaim our school from activists imposing harmful agendas. despite calling itself a national grass roots education, parents defending education is funded by the koch political operation, which has been bankrolling for more than a decade a at least. the founder is nicole neily, the president of another so called grass roots group called speech first and as the nation first reported back in 2018, that group's board of directors contains quote a former head of a koch backed trust and two attorneys from koch programs. the guest was founder of coalition for tj, a different group who sued to block race related admission standards at a virginia high school. that group is represented in its lawsuit by the conservative pacific legal foundation, which surprise surprise received a million dollars from the charles
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koch foundation in 2019. this is important for reasons behind financial transparency. there absolutely is organic outrage from parents towards school boards over many of these issues. the anger is being stoked and channelled by republican politicians, and allies and right wing media. the virginia governor's race where republican candidate glenn youngkin tried to make the election a referendum about standing up to school boards. listen to him earlier this year speaking to harry jackson's group of concerned parent sgls parents have come together to stand up against school boards we must find a way to elect conservative voices to these very important seat sgls the connections surrounding the efforts around this with the reporter who entangled it all, next. entangled it all, next
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you work for us. hear our voice. hear our voice. >> that chaotic scene at a 2009 town hall for congresswoman kathy caster, one of many protests that unfolded acrosses country in cross to the affordable care act that turned into a political juggernaut. today we know it was not activists that fuelled that. groups like americans for prosperity, funded by chals and david koch amplified through dark money, as the koch brothers have certainly spent or raised more than a billion dollars to successfully bend one of the two national parties in america to their will. . the long rise of the tea party movement was orchestrated, well funded and deliberate. we're now seeing a similar phenomenon in the school board meetings across the country. a leaked letter shows how a koch backed group fueled opposition to school mask mandates a new
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report from popular information reveals how local school board issues in virginia are being weaponized by koch backed groups to swing the race. that piece was written by judd legum and he joins me now. it is striking how similar the tea party protests of 2009 are to a lot of what we're seeing at these school boards, they have very similar vibes. in some cases, they have the same people involved and the same organizations. what are these organizations, who funds them? what are they up to? >> well, a lot of that, we don't know the answer to. and that's by design. the main organization that you talked about in your intro before the break, parents defending education, was only founded in march of this year. and we won't know even the limited information that you can learn about a non-profit like that won't be available for two-plus years, and that's not a mistake.
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now, what you can do is you can look at the people involved and you can look at what their history is, and as we know, the person who's in charge of the parents defending education, which is the primary group operating nationwide but specifically in virginia focusing on the glenn youngkin race has extensive contacts to the koch organization, really, spent our entire career looking for koch linked and koch funded organizations, so you can put two and two together and figure out what's going on. >> i want to be clear here, this is not some sort of conspiracy, and astroturf, it's what political organizing looks like. there's some anger on the ground, there's a lot of focus on this in right wing media, and then these groups come in, particularly on the right, use dark money more often than not to essentially mold and shape and sustain and cultivate and push this agenda. it is interesting to me that
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this is where they have landed, on school boards, and not just with one issue but sort of a cross of variety of different issues. >> well, that's true. not everyone who is going to these school board meetings is a paid operative. now, some of them who are appearing on tv and presenting themselves as run of the mill parents are paid operatives, like the ones i learned of in the course of this reporting. there are parents genuinely concerned about critical race theory and other issues, whether or not that's accurate, but i think what this is really, and i think that the tea party analogy is apt, it's a rebranding of the maga movement. it's a lot of the people who were upset about these cultural trends and it's now repackaging it, and this is especially important in virginia where glenn youngkin is seeking to mobilize that same constituency of voters without invoking trump's name and without
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alienating the conservative voters who might be turned off by trump, and that's why we see this playing out in northern virginia which is the key battle ground for the virginia governor's race. >> that's a really good point, that essentially this is politically useful for this very specific region, particularly in the virginia race, where again, this has been a key thing that youngkin has been banging on about. you don't want to alienate voters with too much trump, too much maga because it's a state that joe biden won by ten points but you want to marshal that grass roots rage and so this becomes a convenient way to do it in this new shell, and we're seeing, you know, it becomes essentially a proxy for the youngkin campaign. 62% of people said virginia's school curriculum is a factor
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which i think is a testament to how effective this organizing has been. >> youngkin's main ad on repeat on cable television online is based on an attack that originated out of a school board. he will be appearing tomorrow in fair fax county to talk about these issues and parents' rights. this is really the closing argument, not only for youngkin but for candidates, republican candidates down the line. they think that this is a winning issue. the point that i was trying to expose or the issue that i was trying to expose is that a lot of these issues are contrived in that they don't reflect a real change in the school system. they really reflect a real change in political strategy whereas a lots of these things were just happening, they were considered nonpartisan, it was just the administration of schools are now being charged and really put under a magnifying glass in a way that is intended to extract maximum
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political benefit. and that's what we're seeing. >> what is really fascinating, when you look at the mcauliffe line he said about vetoing a bill around sort of curriculum and books had to do with an lgbtq book, i believe, and then you've got the sort of critical race theory moral panic, and then the masking stuff, and it's like there's not really a real conceptual connection between the masking and the critical race theory. these are distinct issues, one has to do with public health and the suppression of a viral respiratory infection among children. the other has to do with very profound and deep political questions about our history. the fact that they have both been the target sort of tell you something about what's driving this, more than like the individual issue itself. >> yeah, and really what's motivated this latest controversy in virginia are two books. they were actually award winning books. they do depict some sexually
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explicit same sex sexually explicit material, but they have been around since 2019. they're coming up now, and they're being viewed as -- they're being used as an attack, a false attack on terry mcauliffe for vetoing the bill he did in 2016. >> right. so we're picking whatever issues we can from whatever time period, we're putting them all together, and we're seeing what sticks. they have managed to get a sound bite, and that's what's really driving the closing of this virginia gubernatorial race as we enter into the closing weeks. it's really been remarkable how successful this effort has been. >> judd legum, great reporting. thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. coming up, what you need to know about so-called natural immunity. why it isn't an excuse to skip getting vaccinated. that's next. ated that's next.
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as we reported last week, one of the anti vaxxer candidates in texas ended up hospitalized with covid. we are happy to report that he has been released from the hospital and he was treated. he tweeted, i now have a natural immunity. it has become a buzz word. >> if you have natural immunity -- >> look at the fact they refuse to take natural immunity, even though studies show it's probably better than the vaccine. >> the fact this administration won't recognize natural immunity in these mandates. >> it is preferable to have natural immunity than vaccinated immunity. >> why would i get vaccinated? >> when you know i have better immunity than someone who has
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been vaccinated. >> the argument they make is to essentially get sick with the coronavirus and survive, your immune system produces antibodies. if that's the case, why do you have to get a vaccine on top of that? i was following this and i thought, wait a minute, what does the vaccine say about people who recover from coronavirus, how nasty is it for them and how do they get antibodies from the infection? so, doctor, let's start with the top line of what we know from the immunity conferred by getting over covid and the immunity by vaccines. >> we're not talking apples to apples. getting infected itself, you're
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putting yourself at risk for death. it's actually not as strong with an immune response and how long that will last. first we focus on generating the immune response, people who are naturally affected, it differs from person to person. there is a lot of variability, it depends on the severity of the illness. it also depends on the response it generates. the second aspect of it is the difference between age and health status, so there is a lot of unpredictability with natural infection. it's not to say that people who have natural infection have a robust response. some don't have a long-term immune response, so that's
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concerning. >> my understanding is there is a huge chunk of people, a really significant chunk, and the data goes all over the place, that do get covid and come out of it and don't really have the presence of the antibodies that you would anticipate and expect, so they're not really immunized, as far as we know. there is a question of how long they last, and what do we know about how long -- if you do create these antibodies in your body, how long does that last versus the vaccine? >> the longevity of our immune response is one of those things we're still finding out, both with infection and vaccination. with vaccination, you can boost your immune response safely to have a robust immune response and counter the infection. with natural infection, you can't boost that, right? that means you'll have to naturally get infected again but
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no one wants to go through that because you're risking and playing russian roulette. >> i want to talk about this article that was published. more than a third of covid-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies, natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity, and natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination. the argument to be made is why do i need it because i already got it? to the best we can describe, there is actually a positive, cumulative effect to get vaccinated. is that our understanding right now? >> that's correct. the bottom line is vaccination is the safest way to build that
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immunity rather than having the infection and disease. i was unfortunately naturally infected last year and i'm fully vaccinated, so i have a pretty robust immune response. really great data on that end as well. >> there's an interesting point here that i want to make. what you're saying and what a lot of people in public health are saying is there is something insidious in natural immunity, because the way you get natural immunity is you get covid. what we've seen a little bit is the chicken pox party idea, in fact, there's been people who cite that, right, dennis prager who was on the microphone saying, i have covid right now. the kind of logic they're actually propounding is it's okay to get covid because you'll get natural immunity and then you can let it spread.
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it's sort of what we saw from the trump administration that was so disastrous in terms of what we should do in the u.s. >> science shows you what is better outcome. through natural immunity, you're risking a lot, not just for yourself but for the community. first there was pre-delta, so delta was a big game changer here in terms of the infection as well. as we're looking at the studies that were conducted, a lot of them are looking at the survivors. they're not looking at the people who died, 650,000 americans who died of covid. that's speaking volumes right there. >> right, the classic example of survival bias right there. the final point here would just
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be there is a sort of collective reason, a policy reason, but even with the individual reason, there is good data to suggest that if you had covid, getting vaccinated makes sense. it boosts your protection against reinfection and also provides a comprehensive way to boost immunity in the future that is not just, you know, a natural reinfection. >> that's absolutely much more reliable, much more durable. we'll probably see the longevity of our immune response. you're able to boost more in case that's needed, but it's better than severe hospitalization or death. >> doctor, that was very helpful. thank you very much. that's all for "all in." rachel maddow is next. president biden tonight has ordered flags across the country flown at half staff to honor the legacy of general colin powell who has died today at the age of


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