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tv   The Reid Out  MSNBC  October 18, 2021 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT

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thanks for watching "the beat." what time is it? it's time for "the reidout" with joy reid. >> thank you. we have a ton to get to. you have a wonderful, wonderful night. thank you guys for tuning in. we begin "the reidout" with the loss of one of the most historic figures. general powell died of covid complications at 84. it's a passing that feels like the loss of a family member. general powell has been a part of public life for all of mine, basically, and maybe all of yours. in many ways, he felt like a familiar figure. the guy on the block with the strict jamaican parents that always did his homework and joined the rotc and over achieved and made all the moms on the block proud.
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he raise to the rank of four-star general and the first black national security advisor under president regan. in 1989 he became the first black chairman of the joint chiefs of staff under the first president bush and in 2001 he became the first black secretary of state under george w. bush. like so many historical figures, his legacy has complications from his role in how a brutal chapter was reported to the black hawk down raid that left 18 american soldiers dead. while powell was skeptical of the mission, he ultimately approved the raid co-owning the failure with president clinton. in 2003 dick cheney and administration of the second president bush brazenly used the esteem people felt to push him out front to sell a lie iraq had weapons of mass destruction. he opposed the iraq war and said he regretted his speech to the u.n. security counsel that failure could have destroyed a lesser man's legacy but it never
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did. president biden said today that powell embodied the highest ideas of warrior and diplomat and added this. >> it's not only a dear friend and a patriot, one of our great military leaders and a man of overwhelming decency. this is a guy born son of immigrants in new york city raised in harlem in the south bronx, graduated from city college of new york. and he rose to the highest ranks not only in the military but also in areas of foreign policy and state craft. >> ultimately, powell will be remembered as a genuinely good man. a dutiful military man including the current secretary of defense lloyd austin and young people of color from his beloved bronx, new york. >> the world lost one of the greatest leaders that we have ever witnessed. alma lost a great husband and the family lost a tremendous
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father. i lost a tremendous personal friend and mentor. he has been my mentor for a number of years. he always made time for me. and i could always go to him with tough issues. he always had great counsel. we will certainly miss him. i feel like i have a hole in my heart. >> he could have been the first black president of the united states and so feared assassination. nevertheless, he helped move the country forward when he went on a limb to endorse the man that did become our first black president, barack obama despite john mccain being on the other side of that race. he later endorsed president biden having walked away from a deteriorating republican party led by a man that deferred his military service multiple times claiming bone spurs. >> republican party, the
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president thought they were immune, they could say anything they wanted and more troubling, the congress would sit there and not in any way resist what the president is doing. and the one word i have to use with respect to what he's been doing for the last several years is a word i would have never used before, i never would have used with any of the four presidents i've worked for, he lies. he lies about things and gets away with it because people would not hold him accountable. >> and ultimately, he was a man whose life was cut too short by cancer, which he battled and by covid. i'm joined by a democratic candidate for governor of maryland and former army captain and it's great to talk with you, wes moore. you're the right guy to talk to in this instance. you share a lot in common with general powell, not just the jamaican heritage and you know what those parents are like. those west indian parents are rough and strict but can produce in a young man a greatness and, you know, a focus.
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what do you have to say about his legacy on this day? >> you know, this is hard because i think for general powell, you know, he was a person who personally took a real stake in me. i mean, i first met general powell when i was a young lieutenant getting ready to deploy to afghanistan and he was someone who reminded me, he reminded me that loving your country and loving your blackness and who you are do not have to be mutually exclusive, that the conditions you grew up were not your deficits but armor and to think that this someone who was a child of immigrants who grew up in the south bronx, who then rose and went to city college in new york and rose to become the nation's number one diplomat. i think about that in this moment that while yes, we're talking about someone who served to confront and some of the most
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complicated times in the world's history and didn't emerge with a perfect legacy. the thing that i mourn and the person i mourn today is a person who took a very real interest in me and i think who serves as an important example for so many who came up and grew up and served under him. >> why do you think his legacy is so durable and survived? you know, between the vietnam issues and, you know, the iraq war, which i know i was very much opposed to the war but just somehow, he managed to survive those dings to his legacy. why do you think that is? >> well, you know, it's -- you're right. general powell advocated for and justified a war that i also was against. i think the part of the reason that his legacy has endured through all that is i think people remember that we're not mourning today a man who made every perfect decision. you know, i know from personal experience that war is horrible. it is messy.
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it is complicated. i think what people honor is the fact this is a man who rose through the ranks that nobody expected him to. this was a man who served the nation, who frankly world honor his service by not giving him equal treatment. this was a man who understood that in order to lead, in order to hit the levels that he hit, you couldn't just be as good as everybody, you had to be better. markedly better and he was. i think the thing that people honor today is that reality that while his -- while he did not make every perfect decision, when you look at what he did, what he accomplished and also then how he uses life to then mentor, to then support, to then fight and advocate for things in and out of uniform, i think that's what people are remembering today. >> yeah, and you should note that part of his training was in georgia where he did face very
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unequal treatment as a black man so he went through a lot of issues of segregation and denial. he was also somebody who comes from a tradition we don't really see much anymore. he came up in the republican party. he was a staunch republican most of his career, really was his career was made by three republican presidents but when it came to 2008, he said no, the better man is president obama. he supported him again in '12 and supported joe biden. that bipartisan being willing to cross out of party, i should say. bipartisanship isn't what that is, country over party is what it is. your thoughts on that? >> it is. it worth remembering that he did. he krolsz endorsed president obama and president obama was immensely critical of the iraq war. i think general powell, his decision to do that and you're absolutely right, joy, it's the
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moment that he did it. he had a certain level of credibility. he had a certain level of authority that he was willing to hand off to this u.s. senator who was vying to be the next president of the united states and again, as he said because he is the person who has the judgment to lead this country in a very crucial moment. it was an incredible important moment. i think president obama said it in his remembrance today that general powell helped make him president obama. >> indeed. >> that has not been lost today. >> indeed. it might have been the most important endorsement president obama got by somebody who himself could have been president of the united states. wes moore, thank you for sharing this sad but important day for us. sadly, because nothing is sacred, powell's death is weaponized by covid deniers. he died of complications related to covid-19. powell was immune compromised because of a rare form of blood
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cancer. he was vaccinated but vaccines are likely to be less effective in patients with this illness. i'm joined by public health physician and fellow at the american college. you know what it's like to lose a family member and loved one to covid. can you explain to those who would use general powell's death to reinforce their own disbelief in the vaccine? can you help the notion that somehow being vaccinated contributed to his death. >> thanks, joy. the first thing i would say is that's shameful. it shame on a brilliant legacy whether complicated or complex, he was a courageous man and as a family member of someone that's lost their life to covid, for someone to use that tragedy to field disinformation is despicable and i can't say it in nicer terms because there are no nice words for that. we know that the general as you
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mentioned persons with this rare albeit blood cancer are less likely to mount an appropriate immune response to vaccinations. their plasma cells responsible for creating antibodies are impacted by this type of cancer. >> and so your message be for people who say well, see, he got vaccinated and it didn't help him. isn't it the case getting the vaccine was the best chance he had of fighting covid but as you said, his body was not as able to respond to the vaccine the way that somebody who didn't have multiple myoloma would? >> anybody using this as fighting getting the vaccine has absolutely no understanding of the science of sense of loss the nation already endured. if we want to protect ourselves, other than a multi layer strategy is getting vaccinated
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or 11 times lessly to die and when infections do occur no those fully vaccinated, no vaccine is 100%. when it occurs, they occur in people with more risk factors. of the 7,000 deaths we've seen they have been vaccinated from covid, it happened 85% of the cases, an older age and the fact he had the disease had many counts against him in his fight and prayers and blessings to his family as a whole. >> we know that alma powell we believe might have confirmed that is true. when somebody is fully vaccinated, can you explain how and why they might still contract covid for those who do not understand that? >> so, first, let's start with
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this. novak seen is 100% effective. these mrna vaccines have held up through multiple studies to prove efficacy or real world effectiveness, we've seen waning as time goes on for the pfizer and moderna upwards of 75% effective. the most powerful prevention tools we have ever seen or created. in a person who has i'm going to call them overwhelming risk factors, meaning age, your immunity system, your immune system wanes not just because of time but because of age, so an older aged person has higher risk and a person with multiple mialoma which specifically impacts the ability to fight infections and impacts the body's ability to mound are response to vaccinations exposed him and left him with just too
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much risk and he ultimately succumb. >> unfortunately, to put breakthrough cases. only 616 deaths with unvaccinated people. that's 92% of the hospitalizations. it is 91% of the deaths. so you are 11 times more likely to die from covid if you're unvaccinated. that is what you should remember as well as collin powell's legacy as a great american we lost today thank you. appreciate you being here tonight. >> the january 6th select committee prepares to vote on contempt charges as donald trump is questioned under oath in one of many civil lawsuits he's facing. what's behind the obstruction from mansion and sinema as the build back better
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gets smaller and smaller. plus, the preview of the powerful new documentary, "civil war" on the roots of racism and division in the country premieres sunday night at 10:00 p.m. eastern. "the reidout" continues after this. "the reidout" continues after this so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. try spring daydream, now part of our irresistible scent collection. ♪ i like it, i love it, i want some more of it♪ ♪i try so hard, i can't rise above it♪ ♪don't know what it is 'bout that little gal's lovin'♪ ♪but i like it, i love it♪ applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. ♪♪ three times the electorlytes and half the sugar. ♪♪ pedialyte powder packs. feel better fast.
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the house select committee investigating january 6th is set to vote for charges of criminal contempt and defy the subpoena last week executive privilege. president biden declined. the associated press is reporting the white house sent a letter to bannon's lawyer saying the president's decision applied to bannon and refusal to appear for a deposition unquote. this comes as trump today filed a lawsuit naming the select committee and the national
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archives as defendants suing to block. trump's claim says the subpoena is invalid because it has no power of investigation and says the material should be protected, there we go again by executive privilege. congress' power of investigation is upheld by the supreme court. there is that. with me justice corespondent and joyce vance and msnbc legal analyst. let me play what adam schiff from the january 6th committee. here he is. >> what are the chances that you'll get this opportunity to question steve bannon do you think? >> i think the chances are actually very good and the fact that if the justice department prosecutes steve bannon, other witnesses will see they'll face real consequences including jail time and potentially stiff fines. that is a way of getting people's attention. >> joyce vance, how many different ways can steve bannon
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be told your executive privilege claim is denied. you don't get to claim it. how is it possible he and donald trump seem not to understand that? >> i think the problem is that they do understand it, joy, but they've learned over the years that playing a delay game with the courts serves their purposes when they're trying to avoid doing something here. that's why congressmen schiff is dead on the money here and why it will be so important if the committee makes a request to the justice department to bring a criminal contempt proceeding, that would actually be a prosecution of bannon for criminal contempt that would subject him for up to a year in prison. it would be important for doj to proceed. the madness has gone on long enough. it's time to tell trump no and in this case, it means steve bannon and other witnesses need to sit down and testify on congress. >> elie, what do you make of the donald trump lawsuit? he's saying executive privilege
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should apply when he's been told no and suing the national archives. none of that seems to make sense and i'm not a lawyer. >> it's all legal. let's not lose sight of the fact that what trump is arguing is that he has a privileged interest in keeping the public from seeking documents relating to a coup against the united states government. his argument is a little like a cop coming up to me saying hey, elie, do you know anything about the murder on main and 14th street and me saying you can't see my gun. i didn't say all that. maybe i really do need to see those documents, right? if you're going this hard to protect these documents you have no legal claim over, maybe there is something we need to see. executive privilege exists with the office of the president. not the former guy and at no point during donald trump's administration did he seem to understand the difference between his office and his
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person and that's happening again. >> well, and i think even this comes to the civil suits. donald trump gave a deposition today. here is what cnbc reported. trump on monday afternoon completed several hours of questioning that accuses security guards of assaulting trump supporters. it's one of ten civil cases against pending against trump according to nbc news and he's been questioned for over four hours. here is what the plaintiff's attorney had to say whether or not trump was responsive. >> there were a hand full of questions we did not receive answers and we'll seek a court's ruling whether or not those questions have to be answered so there is a possibility there has to be more questions. we'll have to sort of deal with the court on that and move forward as the court directs. >> joyce, i think a couple things donald trump learned over the course of his life is that
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you can keep suing and keep delaying ever having to face the consequences of anything you've done and that's how he lived his life and violence pays off and pro toe violence and threatening violence and using it pays off and that's the tactic he's used all his life. what are the possibilities they will be able to get answers and will he learn in his 70s there are consequences to his actions? >>. >> trump is a bully and always been a bully and that's clear in his conduct in this particular case where part of this deposition today involved trump being confronted with evidence where he encouraged the crowd to engage in violence. we don't know the specifics of questions and answers but in these civil cases, joy, whether it's this one or the summer defamation case or whether the
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case brought by eugene carol alleging that trump defamed her over an alleged rain, all of these cases as they move forward subject trump to the risk of deposition under oath of more of the truth coming forward and of more of his mistake and myth crumping and if as seems likely they there are finally lit -- litigants not taking no for an answer. he may find out at this late stage there are consequences for violating the law and violating people's rights. the truth has a way of taking a long time to come to the front but for trump, that time looks like it's running out here. >> and elie, it feels like it's especially important for him because donald trump carried that to his administration. you saw what was done to the protesters in d.c. to hold his
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bible and had the whole capitol area clear. i wonder if you think there is a larger meaning to getting some justice, even if it's just in civil court against donald trump for his sort of luxurious and violence before he was president and after. >> i would take any justice, any delayed, deferred, i don't care when. i don't care if you have to pursue this man to the ends of the earth. i don't care if we have to go to china and wait for somebody to pop out of a bowl of rice to get him to justice, something needs to happen however, is it though? because as you and joyce have been saying, he has had his entire career, he's been a bully his entire career. he supported violence. has it ever caught up to him? this deposition. this is a bullying vent that happened in 2015 and he was supposed to testify in 2019. now he's testifying in 2021. the lawyers say he maybe didn't answer -- when is it going to ever end? the only thing that's happening
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in the either to him that has a real chance of putting real consequences on him is what is happening in georgia with his attempt to steal the election there. like that could have teeth. he literally tried to obstruct justice and influence an election and we apparently have him on the phone doing it. like, i still have hope that is going to put some real, you know, some orange jump suits at least in his mirror, right? that's my hope. >> at least the jump suit would match complexion because orange is his color. thank you both very much. appreciate you very much. meanwhile, conservative democrats in the senate hold the rest of their party hostage forcing major cuts to biden's top priority. do they think voters will reward them for blocking the popular proposals? we'll discuss when we come back. ?
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so as you know, the democrats have two senators holding back the build back better bill, holding it hostage. it's almost as if they want to apiece the lobbyist than helping a party pass signature legislation. there is joe mansion coming out
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against the center piece of his climate change legislation. the clean electricity performance program. maybe it has to do with the donations from energy companies to the to mention his son running a coal brokerage mansion founded and took a half million a year from but because that's not enough, he's also gone full ronald reagan demanding a work requirement in the child tax program. all that is left is for mansion to guttersnipe about welfare queens and doing that despite analysis that the child tax credit could cut poverty in half and happens to represent america's second poorest state and kyrsten sinema queue her opposition to lowering prescription drug prices but also maxed out of donations from several gop donors this quarter. with me is john nickles, national affairs correspondent. great to see you. i wonder if -- i mean, the explanation raised is the reason mansion and cinema won't tell us
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what they want in the bill is because they want the bill to fail because their donor and donor friends in the pharmaceutical industry for sinema and coal and oil and gas want the bill to fail. am i right? >> i think you're right, joy. i think there is a lot of complexity in this that goes beyond that but that's the baseline. the other reality is that joe mansion and kyrsten sinema are incredibly ego driven politicians. that sounds absurd talking about politicians and egos but they've got really big ones, and the fact of the matter is that both of them, i think, want to be the definer. they want to be the person who basically decides what this bill is. the truth of the matter is i don't think they're working together. i think they would prefer that one of them stood down so that the other one really could be that john mccain figure, that final figure that makes the decision but the tragedy of
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this, joy, is that both of them are taking stands that are incredibly destructive to the circumstance of people in their own states and frankly, incredibly destructive to the democratic party in 2022. >> yeah. here is a sort of unusual scene. this is mansion and sanders talking to reporters together. they actually met today and this is after the op ed that senator sanders wrote and the response where mansion hit back on twitter. here they are together. very short. >> very quick, do you want to get a picture? get a picture of us, huh? we're talking. >> we're talking. >> you have a resolution by the end of the week sm. >> we're talking. >> we're talking. we're going to make some progress. >> i'm not sure how much that matters. i think he's been smart. he said mansion could probably have gotten just about anything he wanted from west virginia coal workers but apparently isn't interested. the only group that could not be
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made whole with any negotiation is the fossil fuel industry itself and people like mansion and his family who profit from fossil fuel ex traction. this is putting specific economic interest ahead of the health of the planet. it doesn't matter how much they smile next to each other, joe mansion wants to create a bill that will enhance the interest of coal companies and make climate change worse because that's what is in frankly his family's financial interest. and that's just it. >> well, i'd add one little element to it. i think you're right that that's it and that's also something that a lot of the national media likes to cover because we're talking about west virginia state with a historic coal mining tradition. we should remember one other aspect of this and that is that the billionaire class for the lack of a better term, people who don't want to pay higher taxes really don't like this bill either. they would like to see it
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tanked, as well and so for both mansion and sinema in addition to the front life issues we hear about, the fossil fuel industry with mansion and pharmaceutical industry with sinema, there is a next stage with usually republican leaning donors that will be happy with any democrat that tanks this bill and that's what we ought to keep our eye on. >> 100%. yeah. you're 100% right. they're buying ads aired on msnbc trying to make it sound like allowing the federal government to negotiate prescription drug prices. it's the biggest buyer and make it sound like that's the worst thing that could happen in the world, big pharma doesn't want this bill. big oil, big coal don't want this bill and it can't be coincidence they don't want the bill. i wonder if there is a way for
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bernie sanders literally arguing let's help people that are poor. this is a state full of poor people and he doesn't care and sin sinema doesn't care. they don't care. >> it's incredible when you think about it. there is something else about west virginia and arizona they have in common and these are both states with a lot of old people. what's the front line proposal in this build back better agenda? it is to extend medicare to cover dental vision and hearing. >> correct. >> you can't imagine a more popular proposal in those two states and yet, these two senators are standing in the way of it. >> and you have to ask who are they actually speaking for because it ain't arizona, old folks in arizona and poor folks and old folks of west virginia because they want what's in the bill. these guys are speaking for doe -- donors. i don't know. we'll see. john nickles, thank you very
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much, my friend. appreciate you. up next, jury selection begins for the killing of arbery. his mother joins us next. arbery his mother joins us next which is a lot. so take care of that heart with lipton. because sippin' on unsweetened lipton can help support a healthy heart. lipton. stop chuggin'. start sippin'. people, with quickbooks live someone else will do your books for you. they'll even pair you with an expert bookkeeper like me, who knows your business. knows... your... business! expert bookkeepers who understand your business. intuit quickbooks live bookkeeping.
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jury selection began today in the trial of three white georgia men charged with murdering 25-year-old ahmaud arbery in what some people like president biden called a modern day lynching. the 25-year-old black man was jogging in a suburban georgia neighborhood when mcmichael and his son travis chased him in their truck and opened fire. william rodney brian joined the chase and filmed the deadly shooting. the mcmichael's attorneys claim the father and son thought arbery was a burglar responsible for several recent break-ins in the area and travis mcmichael
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shot arbery in self-defense. the three defendants have been indicted on federal hate crimes charges. joining me is the attorney for the arbery family and wonda cooper jones, arbery's mom. i want to start with you ms. cooper and with our deepest condolences on the loss of your son. tell us about him because we want to bring life to him. what was he like and tell us what we should know about him. >> ahmaud was the baby of three. he had an elder sister and elder brother. i had him in 1990 on mother's day. he was a happy child. he was a jokester. he liked to make everyone happy and laugh. >> and mr. merit, of the other hand, you have these men who killed him who really were treated with kid gloves. immediately exonerated by the people supposed to be in charge
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for getting justice for this young man. what do you make of the fact they didn't try to render aid. he was still alive for quite sometime. they didn't try to save him. what do you make of these men and this indictment? >> it shows not only the sort of the gravity of the men involved but the systemic failures within the justice system itself. these men were allowed to continue with two months with no arrests and we're grateful the attorney general for the state of georgia decided to bring criminal charges against jackie johnson the original prosecutor in the case for her failure to uphold her duties of office that these men were in the immediately arrested. >> ms. cooper, do you get the sense that law enforcement colluded after the death of your son to exonerate these men and ensure no justice could come and they would walk away scott free? >> unfortunately, yes because
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their actions showed just exactly that. i mean, we went 74 days with no arrests. they actually -- this case was almost closed. so yes, they were actually treated like they were law enforcement officers and nothing done about it. >> and do you think ms. cooper that if they had not had law enforcement ties that things would have gone differently or do you think this is simply because your son was a young black man and it wouldn't matter if they didn't have law enforcement connections? >> i think that the mcmichaels being affiliated with the police department played a factor in it however i think that race played a major factor in this all together. >> mr. merit, let's talk about this jury selection. 1,000 jury summons have gone out to find 12 jurors. 1 in every 85 people living in glen county have been called and one to two weeks for potential jury selection. now that you've seen in the
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george floyd case it's possible to convict someone and george zimmerman case is someone acting like a police officer and was not a police officer and you saw the results of the case. those cases stand at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to justice. how hopeful are you they will be able to find a jury of 12 people that will see this case the way you heard ms. cooper describe it? >> the actions of the people of glen county in the past year give me hope and the past year they voted out jackie johnson. in the past year they galvanized and remain outside of the courtroom now demanding justice for ahmaud. there is legitimate concern about this community that ms. cooper just described and there is reasons for reservation, but i choose to be hopeful just because this community has proven over and over again that they're willing to go out of their way to ensure ahmaud gets
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justice. >> i'll ask both of you this question, mr. merit, do you have confidence in the prosecutor they want to win? >> mr. flynn bode, since the day he got involved in this case he sat down with wonda cooper and assured her of his commitment to justice in this case and he's held her hand and this family's hand every step of the way. they have my full confidence they are going to do everything within their power to ensure the evidence is presented in a clear and thorough way. i don't think a reasonable jury can hear this evidence and conclude anything other than guilty on all charges. >> this case has been described as a lynching, as a modern day lynching, mrs. cooper. do you believe that? and do you have confidence in the prosecutor in this case? >> i do think that the murder of ahmaud was a modern day
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lynching. he was jogging and he was chased and he ran and they didn't allow him to escape. they killed him. i have confidence that we will get justice for ahmaud eventually. >> we'll be watching this case and we certainly are praying for you and your family and we'll certainly keep an eye on it and we hope you get justice for your family and son. thank you so much for spending time with us, wonda cooper jones, thank you mr. merit, thank you both. here is the latest on the 17 christian missionaries. the 16 americans and one canadian including one child was abducted on saturday. haitian police say that are being held by a gang that have a history of mass kidnappings. the state department has a team on the ground and fbi agents are assisting haitian police. it comes amid an increasingly dire situation in haiti as
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port-au-prince is almost empty today as bus drivers are protesting today with deteriorating security. the roots of racial division in america and how the story of civil war is often mistold, especially in the american south. stay with us. cially in the amern south. stay with us into your multi-vitamin. at new chapter. its innovation organic ingredients and fermentation. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. when you're driving a lincoln, stress seems to evaporate into thin air. which leaves us to wonder, where does it go? does it get tangled up in knots? or fall victim to gravity? or maybe it winds up somewhere over the bermuda triangle. perhaps you'll come up with your own theory of where the stress goes.
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the same people who say vaccines are suspect are true of
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this treatment, and because it's not the vaccine and probably because donald trump use it had and promoted it, and means at an abstract level covid is treatable, not that big of a deal. deal t . as states like texas and tennessee take aim at teaching about race and history, trying to whitewash both sides historical atrocities a new documentary premiering on msnbc takes a look at the attacks on the core of academic freedom. the notions of heritage and tradition color the stories americans tell or refuse to tell about slavery, the civil war and its after math. the final year of the obama
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presidency to the present, the civil war examines now the narratives shape our believes to this day. >> i think the spirit of slavery that i talked before that makes color a mark of degradation is still very much with us and i think for too long, the onus of racism has been put on people of color to solve when this is not really like a people of color issue. this is a white supremacist issue where white people need to talk to other white people about how they can overcome the issues. white allies have to take a radical stance. >> i'm joined by rachel boyton, emmy nominated director of civil war, thank you for being here. rachel, i'm going to go to you. you did go and talk to white people and black people about the civil war. what struck me about this film was the denial, and we're talking about young people, kids, who are in deep denial as
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deep a denial about racism and slavery as the grandparents in the film. did that surprise you? >> no. i mean, i think this is a story that's been passed down from generation to generation. i didn't expect to find the narratives that i found when i was traveling in the south because i'm not from the south. but once you get to know it, it's not surprising. these are really family stories that have been passed down. >> you know, what's interesting, erica, and you have roots in the south. i'm looking here that you were born in boston, grew up in jackson, mississippi, so you've lived there. i wonder as you listen to, it became uncomfortable after a while to listen to these, in particular, the young white people saying, i don't think we should talk about this. this is not important to talk about. we should just let this go. if we just stop talking about it, things will be better. that sounds like, you know, i'm sort of used to hearing that from older people. i don't know why i'm surprised. i don't know why i was surprised. were you? >> i wasn't surprised at all. it's how i grew up.
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but what's interesting is the denial, the not wanting to talk about it wasn't just young white people. when i was growing up, young black people, i remember feeling embarrassed and uncomfortable and ashamed about discussions about slavery, and feeling like it was something maybe if we just didn't talk about it it would go away, but we all know it won't. >> you know, rachel, it is an interesting point that was made, and i think the film really does drive it home is that slavery, enslavement has always been sort of shuffled off as a black people's story. this is a story of black americans and doesn't have a whole lot to do with white people, when enslavement is something white people did, and it feels like that's part of the reason we can't get anywhere when it comes to educating young people, and educating grown people about slavery because there is a resistance on the white side of the ledger to talking about white people when it comes to it. >> i think it's a mistake to
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classify african-american history as african-american history when it's american history. it's our story. it was all our story. and the fact that it hasn't been incorporated in our history classes is our story is remarkable. i think that is changing. i'm glad that that's changing. it certainly hadn't changed when i went to school. so it was really inlightening. the huge gaping holes in my own education. >> you were absolutely right that growing up as a young black person, you do learn that you sort of confine all of the history of people who look like us in slavery, and then all of a sudden out of nowhere, mlk says one thing everyone remembers and that's it, there isn't a whole lot in between. i was fascinated by the young black students who seemed eager to have the information. we're no better now than when i was in junior high and high
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school. >> i believe that's true, and quite honestly, what's interesting to me is that you cannot think of the names or the histories of any enslaved people who weren't frederick douglass. a friend of mine told me about a mural in hartford, connecticut, along with the names of george floyd and breonna taylor, they included the names of enslaved people and it's something that we don't think about, we sort of have this idea of nameless, faceless people. these are people who are our ancestors, dealing with the brutality and racism that we look at today hundreds of years ago, and that has continued to be part of this society, that continues to be part of the american fabric. >> one of the things that was the most arresting was the story of clinton, mississippi, this hidden story that we didn't know about a huge massacre that everyone should know about. i think it's even more hidden than the tulsa massacre. because at least i had heard of
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that. it strikes me that if that symbol, rachel, if it hadn't been hidden behind those buildings, it would probably have been desecrated every week, the same way the emmett till, you know, symbol. it does seem like there's a hostility. that's the word for it, to learning this history because it is taken as an indictment of present white people. >> that story in particular was also radically mistold. it was blamed on the black republicans for years. the violence was actually blamed on the black people rather than the white people who showed up with guns. not only was it hidden, it was mistold. a lot of history has been mistold. >> what do you want people to take away from this film? what do you want people to walk away with? >> i think isabel wilkerson said it best, we ignore our history at our own peril, until we sit
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down and talk to each other and confront our history, and not just talk to people who sound like you and look like you, but to people who don't. we're not going to be able to move forward as a society. >> one group of people can't be the only ones to talk about it. gl it's all of our problem. >> erica, rachel, congratulations, it's a great film. civil war, 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. that's ""the reidout,"" "all in is up next. the disgraced ex-president, what we know about donald trump's last ditch appeal to the supreme court. then colin powell succumbs to coronavirus complications at age 84, and the vaccine misinformation machine kicks into gear. >> here we have a very high profile example that is going to require more truth, more truth from our government. how dark money groups that
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