tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC October 14, 2021 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. steve bannon could face jail as this probe intensifies, and coming up i have a special report on a right winged and racist theory. how it's spreading in america and how we're going to debunk it in evidence and history tonight. we've been working on that special for you and we have that coming up. then there's the biden
agenda with an overwrite for spending. steve bannon facing possible jail time after stonewalling these investigators. no documents, no testimony, and they said they will hold him in contempt for not responding to the subpoena. if you're looking at steve bannon or any of this footage that reminds you he's had recent legal problems, that's because steve bannon was indicted. that trial never occurred because he called in a favor. and although him and donald trump had a famous falling out that had everything to do with ethics to how he dressed, then-president trump did pardon mr. banbannon, which means he g to skip what most citizens had to deal with.
here he is, daring the prosecutors to go after him again, all because he's apparently listening to one ex-blogger in florida. he also said he would like to have his executive privilege back. it doesn't work like that. it's a nonsense legal argument because -- and i would say that for any president who just asked for it. the executive privilege belongs to an executive. it belongs to a job that president trump lost. meanwhile, merrick garland will have a call to make here whether to criminally prosecute trump aides who are held in this kind of contempt. charges have not been brought, as far as we can find, by the justice department over 50 years. that's one of those legal statistics that cuts both ways. on the one hand, it is rare and it is a big deal to go hold someone in contempt, prosecute them and try to jail them if they haven't committed a separate crime. on the other hand, the reason
this is rare is that most people that congress reaches, including powerful ceos and ex-government officials, they try to cooperate in some way, or at least negotiate over how to cooperate. they don't announce in public that they are defying lawful subpoenas, that they think they're above the law. that's the kind of thing that can get a moderate attorney general, and mr. garland is that as a former judge known for his credentials, it could even get him to act. one of the key investigators here, adam schiff, who is on the committee and pardoned him, says they're not standing for it. >> at the end of the day, if the witnesses continue to stonewall, we need the justice department to know the rule is back.
no one is off the table. >> we're joined by max boot, who has served as a foreign policy advisor and policy experts for several republicans. he now writes for the "washington post." elli, it is rare but it does happen. do you think this is legally justified for individuals who don't even pretend to negotiate but just say subpoenas don't apply to them like mr. bannon appears to be publicly claiming. >> of course it's justified. ban bannon's argument is ridiculous. he's claiming executive privilege from a guy who can't assert the privilege, for a guy he wasn't actually working for over information about whether or not he could organize a coup against the government. that's not privilege, folks,
that's a stupid argument. of course he should be prosecuted for failing to meet congressional subpoena deadlines. but here's the thing, ari. you said he could go to jail. will he, though? will he? because as you pointed out, this is a criminal referral. this is congress referring criminal charges to the justice department, which then has to have its own process trial. the last time we did this in 1983, rita ravel, i believe was her name, was indicted at the jury trial. just because congress did not do this did not result in steve bannon with consequences on his blatant refusal to follow the law. >> you know what you sound like, eli, a nuanced lawyer, making the point that when this does happen, and max can speak to
this -- as eli said, think of it as a hot potato. it's hot because you say, look, we have done everything we can in the congress. we literally are referring this as a public crime. then they say we're going to look at this very closely but there are a lot of reasons they don't love that kind of case. counsel here just gave us one, which sometimes that kind of case you lose, because as i emphasized briefly in the lead, max, it's not a separate crime. it's not like you stole something and you defied the subpoena. you're just on what could be technically called the process argument. but max, doesn't process matter if people start getting away with defying congress, especially in an insurrection investigation, doesn't that undermine the oversight they need to do to protect democracy? >> of course it does, ari, but i agree with the analysis you just heard that i am not so confident that the rule of law will actually prevail here, even though the right and wrong of
the situation is pretty clear. more broadly, zoom out a little bit, ari. i think there's been this hope in anti-trump circles in which i include myself for the past five-plus years that sooner all of the apparent infractions of the law committed by donald trump and his cronies will catch up with them, and before long they would all be fraud marched away in handcuffs, including trump himself. you can name many offenses, many of them financial with what's being investigated in the state of new york. i would have to say that more than five years of this, i don't have any confidence that the law is ever going to catch up to trump and his cronies, that they've done actually a pretty effective job of obstructing justice and, of course, trump had a lot of power to do that in office simply by pardoning people like steve bannon and putting pressure on the justice department and with client ags like bill barr and others.
even now i don't see any appetite on the part of the biden administration to use the full extent of the law to go after trump and his henchmen like steve bannon because i think they're afraid of the political blowback. they're afraid this will just turbo charge the trump movement and they'll claim they're being persecuted by the deep state. this is all a political plot and it will blow up in their face. i just see, as you noted, merrick garland is a centrist. he has a very moderate reputation. he was very centrist as a judge. he seems to be pretty centrist as an attorney general. i just don't have a lot of confidence that garland and the justice department are going to go throw the book at trump or anybody else. >> i appreciate the point you're making, and as mentioned, you have a lot of experience in the upper echelons at least in the older version of the republican party and pushing back on the trump era.
eli, max, also points to the political blowback out there. prosecutors claim not to do it. some do it. james comey gave a lot of thought as to what the political perception of him would be, and as you know, that's why he's such a hero. i wanted to get the joke in. i have to get libby in. libby is a straight political reporter, so i didn't want to get the joke in on her. james comey said he thought a lot about things and how he would be perceived. i bring that up as a subject to you, libby, because we just got told by one guest what should happen, by another what will happen. what does your reporting suggest? >> reporter: who is making this political, right? if you defy a subpoena and you're saying you're doing it because trump's lawyer told you to, you're doing it on his direction, that's what's making this a political decision.
president trump has not gone away, right? the former president is still out there. he's still perpetrating the lie that january 6 was not an attempted coup, it's not meant to overthrow the government in this country. seven democrats, three republicans all appointed by speaker pelosi, we would anticipate they would pass this on to the house. the house votes on it and then it goes to the justice department. you bring up great questions about attorney general garland. the administration from this committee needs to get information from the national archives. trump tried to claim executive privilege and block those. they said nope. even if you play this out the entire way and steve bannon is put behind bars, can steve bannon do that? we're looking at a fine of
$100,000, we're looking at a month to a year imprisonment. what this does, though, is send a signal to other people being called before this committee who might not be ready to die on that sword. might not be able to benefit politically or financially as steve bannon might be able to considering this world he lives in. mark meadows, kash patel, people who have not been deposed yet before this committee, they haven't been interviewed yet even though they were supposed to be. but we do have a sense that there is some movement, right? they're not out actively defying this. we've gotten word from the committee that this hasn't moved forward yet. it might be a warning to other people to work with them to get documents. the bottom line, though, is even if this follows through, even if the attorney general moves on this, the committee may never get what they want from steve bannon and it could also take a
very long time, which is exactly what the committee does not want to happen. >> eli, how about that point, that meadows is not going full bannon? >> what we know from the committee is he's cooperating in some way. we don't know if meadows is doing what he's asked to do. that's another reason i think we should use our political power. if you and i ignored a subpoena from a court, we would be in jail. we would not pass go, you would not collect $200, you would go to jail. because courts have an inherent contempt power, they can jail you until you follow their rules. congress has the same power. they haven't used that power since 1927, but when they used it in 1927, they said, of course, congress can arrest people who do not follow subpoenas. steve bannon doesn't need to be referred to a committee on tuesday. no, steve bannon needs to be in jail by this weekend under congress' inherent contempt power and then we would be
having something. then we would be having a conversation. then it's go time. >> now we're in deep law school end, but hey, here we are. when people see "my cousin vinny," that's when he goes toly attempt. it's different than a place that adjudicates. we did want to look at another scene that played out at this republican rally in virginia. bannon was a headliner, along with trump. people pledged allegiance to an american flag that had allegedly been carried on january 6. >> i also want to invite kim from chesapeake. she is carrying an american flag that was carried at the peaceful rally with donald j. trump on january 6. >> face the flag.
i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america. >> max, your thoughts? >> it's bizarre and it's horrifying as they attack as freedom fighters. they are increasing their approval of what happened when these trump terrorists stormed the capitol in an attempt to overthrow the election. you can see in the polling where more than 60% of republicans believed trump was the lawfully elected president in november, even though he lost it by millions in the vote. you can see he retains in the
american polls as 70% of americans want trump to be president again, even though every single day he denies the outcome of the last election which is the fundamental prerequisite of having a functioning democracy. if the losers don't accept the outcome of the election, you don't have a functioning democracy. increasingly you see republicans preparing for a coup in 2024, purging anybody from the you see them basically approving any means necessary to gain power. trump is holding up ashleigh babit as this wonderful martyr.
it never ends well. >> it's clear support for the january 6 terrorism and it is what is needed for public politics. i want to thank max, libby and eli for coming on tonight. it is junk science but it's coming here to america, which is why we have a fact check. that's next. plus an update on the biden agenda. stay with us. n update on the bi agenda stay with us
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this is about a lot of things, but definitely black lives. the voters now casting ballots with new people, new obedient people from the third world. >> they will come for you and replace you. this is an elaborate conspiracy theory gaining traction in the american right. non-white immigrants will replace the electorate, presumably the more white electorate. this matters because it's dangerous and they're dressing up a dogma in a policy
framework, peddling warnings about our cultural heritage. our special report right now explores this history and exposes this fraud with an eye on an ugly, terrible history that we all know about. you even learned about it in grade school, and it's proven history has taught us it's not effective to ignore or minimize these kind of idealogies, this kind of hatred, this kind of anti-semitism as it crops up as it repeatedly does in any societies with any diversity is racist. this replacement theory i'm going to tell you about right now fixates specifically on immigration. it starts the claim with a
relatively neutral position, that most countries set limits on immigration, and that includes some type of standards for who is admitted to the country. okay. true enough. then it pivots into white supremacist racism. arguing that countries like france or the u.s. are inherently white so immigration limits must patrol against any racial minorities or foreigners to stop them from, quote, replacing the allegedly current white residents. >> replace the current electorate with new people, more obedient people from the third world. >> you will not replace us! you will not replace us! >> this is a purposeful resettlement. >> white replacement -- no, no, this is a voting rights question. >> it's going to be millions of illegal immigrants into the united states. >> they're come to go a neighborhood near you. >> we are being invade. >> they're coming to your
backyard. >> it's your country. you own it, you pay for it, you were born here. it belongs to you. >> his theory is a new spin on some very old types of arguments, some of which do remain so discredited that even these proponents insist they're not actually endorsing those other things, those other idealogies, that other type of white supremacy or nazi idealogy. donald trump did say there were "good people" at that infamous charlottesville riot as they chanced against replacement and many do traffic this direct kind of hate. the history of hate shows it also rises in more inas i had -- insiduous and testing or science provides some
distinctions for elevating a white ruling class and excluding others. america built on a system of racial slavery, jim crow racism continuing long after the legal end of slavery itself. for immigration, the u.s. limited immigrants from a wide range of countries. congress barred people from asia and the china exclusion act in the 1880s. it's other ways to limit irish, catholic and jewish migrants. when people did try to challenge that blatant accusation, he tried to assert under law that he could be counted as caucasian because he was from north india. but the supreme court left no doubt, ruling against him saying the physical group characteristic of the hindus render them readily
distinguishable from groups commonly recognized as white. >> here's a "new york times" headline about it. an immigration bill passed overwhelmingly 62-6, ban on asiatics is made operative. it shows the villain talking up the kind of white supremacy that later would animate this replacement theory. >> if we don't watch out, the white race will be utterly submerged. it's up to either dominant race to watch out or these other races will have control of things. >> it's certainly not a question of if it can happen here. it's whether it will happen here again fully. it was only within the last 70 years that u.s. immigration rules ended those direct limits i showed you under law on people from asia. it's only in that time span that the u.s. dismantled legal quotas
and other limits amidst explicit pressure in the 1960s. even embracing a relatively public life, in 1998, a president who knew the history of america's immigration laws saw what was coming. and he tried to urge america to face these changing demographics head on, to welcome them. he tried to urge people to see all of this as a source of strength and unity. he basically was trying to talk to white americans about deciding what to do since this has always been a nation of immigrants. >> today largely because of immigration, there is no majority race in hawaii, in houston or new york city. and in another 50 years, there will be no majority race in the
united states. what does this mean? they can either strengthen and unite us, or they can weaken and divide us. we must decide. >> decide. how do people decide? how do people make decisions? by their own experience, right, their emotions, but also by acting to queues they see as sources. openly those sources embrace more hate these days and the replacement theory. but there is also this younger american demographics and electorate that is embracing people existing together, but they're pitted against this retrograde group, reaching backwards for anything that might stop the change or justify it with this science.
the people trying to stop the so-called invasions from abroad might be surprised to learn this replacement theory itself is from abroad. as an idea, it's an immigrant. it's a non-american concept from abroad. that's not, by any means, one of the larger problems with replacement theory, it's just an ironic side note. not only that, it's from a country that many conservative americans spent the nation mocking. they even replied french fries, freedom fries. i'm talking about france. if it was a different topic, we might run a clip from the evil racecar driver from "talladega nights," a topic that matches american sentiment on the american right. but this is too serious to do that. maybe another time. but replacement theory is from
france, i'm serious about that. conservative writer and right wing politician reno kamoo, who literally lives in a ten-story tower. you can see his lifestyle right there. he drew on the ugly history i just explored with you to, in his view, warn white people in france or other white majority countries as what he sees, quote, as a great replacement of the original population with newer arrivals, mostly from africa, those immigrants that he is afraid of. this is one face of modern white supremacist pseudo science, claiming to draw on books and policy and humanity back in a supposed attack on a white ruling class who he argues, who he alleges, who he warns are about to become the victims.
>> the people and civilization can happen. i think the crime against humanity in the 21st century is the great replacement. >> you think it is the crime of humanity in our times? >> yes, yes, very much so. >> the question is, is it time now for white anglo and english-speaking americans to turn to immigrants? >> he means white. he sends his words across the united states. but many are drawing on his words to do crime, hate crimes,
violence, murder. now, we're deep into this special report with all the history. we have not spent much time on the history of the nazis and the holocaust in europe. very few topics are clarified with comparisons to nazis. but neo-nazis compare themselves to nazis. they are the modern nazis. they are the ones quoting kamu in their marches. that day in charlottesville is when many people in america heard a direct reference to replacement theory. >> you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. >> you will not replace us! you will not replace us! you will not replace us! >> those neo-nazis take this
replacement hatred literally, as do some recent mass murderers who killed 50 people in the jewish mosque or the el paso people who killed 20 people in a walmart. those murderers invoked this conspiracy theory by name. the el paso shooter wrote a ndiaye -- diatribe claiming it to be the great replacement. the hispanic community was not my target before i read the great replacement. kamu said he rejected that violence. he still welcomes how his ideas are spreading, noting he does not object to people seeing me
what he calls ethnic substitution that's in progress in his country. no, he says, to the contrary. he does not object to that notoriety to those followings. ideas, presently and hate, they spread it all sorts of ways. the neo-nazis know that all the conspiracy theories and justifications against jews and minorities spread through the 1940s. this can be spread even more precisely in realtime. google as this mountain of data on what people search, and people are noticing this right now this year more than before. we can show it to you. google has the data that shows the replacement theory pretty staggering in over a decade there. then the largest spike in google trends is this year, it's right now, it's after trump is leaving
office, it's 2021. the term pushed on fox news, and if people had not thought much about it yet, fox anchors are changing that, getting it out in the broodstream, googling it, talking about it, deciding whether this could be something. then, i showed you when you were not aware of it, and people became visibly upset at the traits used. >> this is a purposeful resettlement -- it's going to be millions of illegal immigrants to the united states. there u, of course, a senator in the republican party, ted cruz
and donald trump. so what matters what patsz in yoouft of power that ted cruz and now maybe some public officials are nodding along or invoking the theory link to all this hate. >> the revolution has begun. we are being invaded. they're not invited. >>. >> to politically transform the political land. the so-called replace. theory, illegals who are here, who are going to take our education. sdplds there's nothing new about white supremacistly, along with overall rising crime rates during the pandemic. we also have the division of an
insurrection we just lived through and a movement bent on justifying. all of this. take it together and the stakes are high. the challenges and many societies have beaten this evil before. if you look at history as we have here a little bit together today, massive movements that change countries and start wars do not need a majority to act on racism and evil. they actually attempt to do something very different. they tend to build on that core, of course, but then rely on jump theories and other claims to say that other groups are inferior, to say that this or that policy is actually a good thing to protect and improve something
good to society. they do that so other people -- some might be in on it, others might be ignorant -- they come along and say, this might be okay. that's how you really get people on board. the ideas and premises matter. if they didn't, then even the neo-nazis would not even bother quoting these far-off castles, would they? it's literally an idea of ethics, and for many of us who believe in social equality, and there are many of us -- many of us -- it is always better to pay attention, to think, to face it down and wage and win this war of ideas first to forestall any alternative.
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this is increasingly being googled and repeated and making its way into the halls of the power of america. >> first of all, thank you for that segment. it was beautifully laid out. we have laws that are restricted immigration, and sadly this is not true, or this is not new. what is really frightening about this particular moment, though, is the gop has decided to cast their lot within an openly blatant white supremacist idealogy, something we have not seen so aggressively within the past two decades. so right now you have republicans who just a few years ago when donald trump was felt
these racist terms and tried to make the norms, you had so many halfway decent republicans saying, i don't know what he means, i'm not exactly sure. they danced around the topic. we're now at a moment, ari, that it is abundantly clear what people believe. to be a part of the republican party right now, to look at what the leadership has said is to actually say you support white supremacy. before we were saying not every republican believes it. right now we can actually affirmatively say that if you are in the republican party you are actually saying that you believe that your leadership who is anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, the anti-semitism is rampant. we know the work of greenblatt has been around for years.
they have been saying this about the anti-black. now so many leaders in the republican party who are supporting the likes of tucker carlson, who are supporting the likes of folks on fox news, now are spouting this kind of hatred that makes it more dangerous for people like you and me to walk down the street, to say nothing about going to the ballot box when we're trying to vote and exercise our american principles. >> and why do you think it is so vital to some of these individuals as we showed to go this far, which as we show was very far, then to hide and spit. you've got neo-nazis chanting him so we need to learn about it. then kanu says english speaking when referring to the american experience. there are plenty of people from all walks of life and diversity who speak english. he very clearly, from his
writings, means white and he's even dodging. then fox said, oh, the replacement word bothers somebody. no, it's not bothering anybody, we're drawing on why mass murderers use it. >> this is what's going on right now. you still have members of the gop who want to hide behind this racist rhetoric and others who are happy just to have it out in the open. for many people, americans mean white. it does not mean the ari melbers and christina greers of the world. we have to think about anti-racism, anti-semitism and anti-nazi sentiment. we know that on january 6, we saw and they're only here to be
in service industries and never interact at any sort of leadership. donald trump pulled them into the mainstream and we don't have anybody in the republican party standing up and saying, this is not acceptable. you have people saying, that's not my party and i don't really agree. we're at the moment now where you can't sit on the sidelines and say there are certain members of my party who are aggressive and don't like immigrants. if you are being quiet right now, you are actively supporting this supremacy and this terror who plagued our nation in the past two years in ways that we hadn't seen in generations. i talked to my parents who are in the early '70s.
they thought these battles had been fought and won. my father integrated his high school in northern florida. he thought those battles were over by and large. the fact we're still fighting these super-racist idealogies in the 21st century and have the rest of the world look at us. it's not just darrell roof or carl rittenhouse. people who have been unleashed on this nation to wreak havoc, terror, beyond anti-racism, anti-semitism and anti-nazi individuals across this country. >> christina, thank you for being here. >> thank you, ari. the biden agenda, including cheering at the white house. stay with us. da, including cheering at the white house. stay with us ♪
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the white house says it's time. it's pushing liberals to go ahead and get action on biden's spending agenda while new polls show the challenge, for example, among non-college white groups. meanwhile, 29% of that same group believes this plan will help them. it's a gap that shows where part of the public is at. i'm joined by washington chief
coren. what's up in washington? >> the president has two jobs. one is to get stuff done. the other is to tell a good story. you really can't have one without the other. donald trump just told stories, his stories were lies, best economy ever, going to deal with health care, all that sort of stuff. and his people at least bought that. but biden has become mired down -- and i'm not sure it's through any fault of his own, and people looking at washington from afar see a mess, they see democrats squawking at each other, but they also see republicans throwing a wrench into the system, and all they see is sort of it's not working the way i want it to work. they blame the guy in charge even if a lot of that is not his fault. >> yeah. let me ask you the question that comes up a lot because you're an expert down there in the capitol. people say why does it seem like the democrats do more negotiating in public?
>> well, i mean, the republicans don't care about getting things done, right? they want to stop government, they want to cut back programs. there's nothing they want to move forward in charge, except tax cuts. other than that, what else did trump care about in the republicans getting done through legislation? very, very little. the democrats want the legislate. and it a very difficult process, particularly with a 50-50 senate. yeah, they are -- they know if they have any chance in 2022, they have to get this done, the infrastructure bill. i mean the infrastructure bill within the next month or two, that's going happen. but again, you don't want it to be at the end of such a bloody process that the people that these provisions are helping, the people supporting individually don't feel like you're helping them. >> that makes sense. we're running over on time. do you have a dylan quote or
anything before i let you go? >> no. i would just say this is what happened in the obama years. they didn't tell the story well. so the song would be don't get fooled again. not by dylan, but by the who. they have to learn the lesson from back in those days. >> that's the great george w. bush reminds us he had some speaking issues. but it isn't a song. jay cole samples that bush aproppism if you will. won't get fooled again. david corn, always on spot for us. when we come back, donald trump just lost a key court proceeding that may force him to be deposed.
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way, and i got thousands of responses. so if you do want to enter the more idle space of social media, you can always find me at ari melber. you can tell me why i'm wrong about main courses. that does it for me, something much more sustaining, we turn to "the reidout." >> how are you going to say fish is a terrible main course? >> i'm always hungry within three hours. is that not a failure of a meal? >> you're eating at the wrong places. you need better restaurants. >> let's go. >> we're going to work on you. we're going fix you. thank you, ari melber. >> peace. >> have a wonderful evening. good evening, everyone. well begin "the reidout" tonight with the criminal charges that may be in store for steve bannon. today was the day that the alt-right trump whisperer was supposed to be deposed by the select committee investigating january 6. instead, he flouted their subpoena, snubbed the committee, and in the process put himself in legal jeopardy. he has now earned himself a criminal citation from that committee, which will be voted