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tv   MTP Daily  MSNBC  October 14, 2021 10:00am-11:00am PDT

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direction. we have critical work to do. but we can't let up now. my team and i are doing everything we can. i'm calling on more businesses to step up. i'm calling on more parents to get their children vaccinated when they are eligible. i'm asking everyone, everyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated, please get vaccinated. that's how we put this pandemic behind us. accelerate our economic recovery. we can do this. i've said many times, god bless you all and may god protect our troops. thank you very much. >> you just watched president biden do an update on the vaccination program, selling the mandates. obviously, he wants to encourage more mandates. the federal government is going to write a rule soon. he wanted to reassure there were plenty of shots as well.
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obviously, he didn't take any questions. we will have more on the pandemic coming up and the latest on the booster shot situation. right now, on the other end of pennsylvania avenue, we are watching subpoena deadlines come and go. the january 6 committee seeks a trove of witness testimony and documents from trump allies tied to the january 6 insurrection. the former president told them not to cooperate. the committee is not holding its breath for members of the president's inner circle. they're not sure if they were going to supply today and tomorrow for testimony. that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of who the committee is targets. members of the committee have crisscrossed the halls of capitol hill in recent days warning trump allies that if they don't cooperate, there will be consequences. >> if witnesses don't appear when they are supposed to, don't produce documents, we intend to move quickly to have a vote in the house to hold them in
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criminal context, refer it to the justice department for prosecution. >> i would recommend the full extent of consequences, jail time, fines. we need to make sure that these people understand that this is not acceptable. >> americans across the country should ask what they would do if they had a subpoena to turn over documents. they would go or they understand the marshalls would show up at their door the next day. >> for what it's worth, not complying raises the specter of, what do you have to hide? will they go after them in a big way? it's big talk right now. to make good on most of the threats, the january 6 committee will need the blessing of biden's justice department and the attorney general. any criminal prosecution for stonewalling a subpoena would come from federal law enforcement, not congress. the big question, is garland on
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board? democrats are saying, he is going to have to be. >> when bill barr was attorney general, there was no way he would prosecute anyone covering up for donald trump. he viewed the justice department as trump's criminal defense firm. it's different now. we intend to enforce the subpoenas. i think if someone thumbs their nose at the law, doesn't comply, is prosecuted, it will be a powerful message that they better comply. >> i fully expect this department of justice to hold and enforce that subpoena. i think this department of justice believes nobody is above the law. >> sahil, the deadlines are today. steve bannon was holding a rally in virginia. he was close. he is within driving distance of showing up today. what do we know? when does the committee decide
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they haven't complied? is it 5:00? >> there's a growing likelihood that this committee is going to put out criminal referrals to the justice department to prosecute these individuals. steve bannon is the first to make it clear in a letter from his legal team that he is not going to comply. he is citing executive privilege claims made by former president trump which the white house does not accept, the committee does not accept. the democrats are making it clear that they're going this route and that they will send a message to everyone that they need to comply. their word is tested here. it's not just the committee. it's not just the house. as you point out, the justice department, a u.s. attorney in d.c. has to make the prosecutions happen, has to issue the fines, jail times to send that message. of course, bannon's reason for refusing to comply has nothing to do with the proximity to washington, d.c. he can show up here and talk to the committee if he wants to. he feels like he doesn't need to. he feels like he can get away with it. it's up to the committee and doj
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to prove him wrong. >> mark meadows is a former member of congress. kash patel worked on congressional committees and has been on the other end of oversight requests. all of the conversation around those two is they are talking. are they trying to find a compromise to comply? >> it's notable, chuck, that those two men, kash and mark, have been described by the january 6 committee as engaging. that can mean a lot of things. they haven't clarified whether that means fully cooperating. they haven't said whether they intend -- whether they have provided those documents that they had a deadline of doing last week. patel is supposed to testify today. the committee hasn't said whether he is showing up. meadows is expected to testify tomorrow. meadows, yes, a member of congress. he knows these halls very well. he has walked them for many years. he is firmly on the side of donald trump.
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by the way, put out a statement last night lavishing praise on meadows. it seems unlikely that donald trump would do that if he thought mark meadows was going to comply. a lot of this happening at the same time. the pressure on this january 6 committee. >> that had the feel of the boss putting his arm around mark meadows, remember who you work for. i saw that same release and had the same reaction. sahil kapur, i know you have more reporting to run to. let me bring in pete williams. we know when -- it looks like they're going to have at least one criminal referral for steve bannon, possibly more. walk us through the next step. now it goes where? >> congress votes to find someone in context. there's a statute passed in 1857 that says, when congress does that, the u.s. attorney in washington shall present the matter to a grand jury. since 1984, the justice
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department's position has been, you can't make us do anything. we will consider that a matter of our own discretion. the justice department has never prosecuted anybody who cites executive privilege. but this is a complicated case because this is a former official of a former president whose exertion of executive privilege has been rejected by the current president. the supreme court said the current president is is influenl in this. we know from the nixon case in 1977 when he sued the archives over this, that a former president has some right to exert executive privilege. when the current president goes the other way, it undercuts them. >> steve bannon didn't work in the white house for almost three years. it seems to me that the executive privilege on that is very hard to defend. i don't think he has much of a case.
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what happens next? does this go to court? they arrest him? grand jury indicts him? what's the process? >> the justice department's view, of course, in any prosecution is, we will take it case by case. if i had to guess, a guess, i would think this is pretty good likelihood the justice department will file charges here. look what they have done so far. they have waved executive privilege on their own former officials testifying before congress. we know what the biden's view is on the latest assertion of executive privilege over documents. he would be indicted by a grand jury and he would go to trial. >> it seems mark meadows -- >> if he is convicted, you can serve up to a year in jail. >> meadows being the chief of staff at the time of all of this, he seems to potentially have a stronger executive privilege case than anybody else. >> remember executive privilege claim is the president's, not the official. it's all about him, his right to receive advice without fear it
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will become public. the further away you get from a sitting president and the president himself and his inner circle, the weaker the claim becomes. >> is there a chance this would go to trial? >> sure. the last person to be cited for contempt of congress was rita lavelle during the reagan administration over the epa superfund thing. she was tried. she was acquitted. >> that trial would be in the district of columbia? >> yes. federal court here. >> a jury trial? >> yes, most likely. >> one would assume this thing isn't going to go to trial. >> if he is charged, he has a pretty serious choice then to plead guilty. >> this takes up time. how much time are we talking here? is this months? >> for sure. months at least. >> that makes -- >> by the way, it occurred to me, suppose he is charged with contempt of congress and he pleads guilty or found guilty,
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i'm not sure that that means he is going to testify. >> it's possible he could avoid testifying if he is willing to sit in jail for a year? >> i guess the problem is, every time he refuses to testify, he can get charged all over again and becomes a new offense. it would just -- i can't imagine that it would go on forever like that. >> how fast do you expect the justice department to act here? >> i think promptly. they will get the referral from congress. congress will act quickly. the u.s. attorney will act within a matter of days. >> pete williams explaining how this could work. thank you. let me bring in somebody familiar with the investigation into the january 6 attack. it's pennsylvania congresswoman madeleine deen. the second impeachment happened this calendar year, for those with covid calendar brain.
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i'm sure you have that, too. stuff happened yesterday or three years ago, nothing in between. how quickly will congress refer this as a criminal complaint to the justice department in your view? >> i'm confident it will be a quick referral. i'm certain the committee is fully prepared for that. we have seen the stonewalling by some of the actors over the course of the last few years under the former administration. it's a new day. pete just laid it out. this is a different department of justice. this is a different administration, thank the good lord. i believe the referral will come quickly. i think a vote on the floor could come quickly. i think that this will be met with much more urgency and swiftness of response. this is about the subpoena power of an equal branch of government. the former administration has
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some notion that he and he alone was the top. we will get them. >> speaking of bannon, are you concerned that he almost appears to be embracing this fight? he wants to be a martyr and sadly there's an ecosystem that will cheer him on and frankly fund his fight, if you will, for this. we have gotten to such a bizarre place that there's a growing wing that would cheer something like this on. how much does that complicate things? >> i see it as a sign of extraordinary insecurity and weakness. any one of these people shouldn't need a subpoena at all. as an american, as a patriot, as a citizen who suffered the
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insurrection that was not an attack on democrats in congress, it was an attack on the entire government, including the republican sitting vice president. to me, it's a sign of their weakness. obviously, to your question earlier on, what in god's name are they hiding? after all this insurrection was spontaneous, they must have had nothing to do with it. if you read some of the senate judiciary report about the desperate measures that the president was taking in the days leading up to the insurrection, we will know that many of these actors know much, much more. we will learn what their responsibility was for an attack on our government by americans holding and wielding and beating people with the american flag and with the trump flag. >> i'm glad you brought up the senate judiciary report. i've been thinking about this. we discussed it on the sunday show with a senator who is on the judiciary committee, a part of this investigation.
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you were on the judiciary committee in the house. if you had jeffrey rosen's testimony in february and that was part of your -- you had plenty of evidence, but this is more damning than ever now, the six days between january 1 and january 6, all of his actions that we have, had you had that, do you think it would have improved your chances of winning? >> sadly, i think we had plenty of facts to reach all 100 senators. sure, i wish we had more of the information of the literally three hour meeting in the oval office that took place on january 3rd, three days before the insurrection. the following day, the meeting with attorney eastman with the vice president, with the six-page memo trying desperately on the part of donald trump to overturn the full, fair results of an election.
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sure, it would have been good to have. now we will have it on the record through the senate, through the select committee and the american public will know it. you know, if you look back to that impeachment trial that i was honored to be a part of, we had senators who we showed them the evidence, the evidence was compelling and it was not refuted by donald trump's attorneys. i don't know what more we could have brought in there that would have changed the result of the 57-43 vote. >> certainly, now, where this party is, i don't know whether anything would have moved -- they were perhaps a bit more movable back in february. let me turn quickly to the ongoing debate over the president's agenda. i don't know if you caught terry mcauliffe's sort oexaspiration
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in virginia. how concerned are you about this impacting that race and, therefore, creating this domino affect? do you think we will get closer before the end of the month? >> i honor terry mcauliffe in his run to become governor again. i understand his frustration and the timing is coming close on his election, certainly. i would like to push back on this notion of total dysfunction. i was at the white house yesterday with the president in a bipartisan way. we had a meeting and had a chance to talk about build back better. i want people to recognize, we have two incredibly important transformative bills that are on a track, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, which i am confident will come forward and we will pass and it will be meaningful to state after state after state. but we also have the chance in a
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more transformative way with build back better. the substance of that bill is what we should be talking about, not the process, not the date, not the top line number. think of how different our world will be in terms of educational opportunity and economic opportunity if we put those things in place. i have the confidence we're going to do both. that will reflect well on democrats. all of the big lie and what has gone on in the past reflects damningly on republicans. >> the problem, congresswoman, is on this larger bill, the reconciliation bill, we don't know what's in it. there se seems to be a debate, can't have every program. it looks like there's a larger chunk of the party that says, if you have to pick, then pick the things that help children, pick the things that help young parents and medicare expansion may be a bit too expensive.
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is that your sense of where things are headed? >> chuck, i'm in an interesting spot. i have spoken to leadership about this. i'm on the progressive caucus and new democrats caucus. i've had the opportunity to be a part of both of those kinds of conversations. i will tell you what i keep concluding this week, what i care about is making a difference for the children in terms of education. it will be in negotiations that we decide which programs and for how long these will be funded. i want to remind the american people, we have a plan to pay for it. don't fall for this notion of the democrats just want to run up a deficit. we can pay for this. for example, i want to feature a couple. universal pre-k, what an engine for educational opportunity and equity for all of america's children. paid family leave, we have seen that make an extraordinary difference in people's economies, people's ability to get back to work, childcare,
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affordable childcare. one of my real beliefs is free community college. i believe that will be an economic engine. it's called the -- the package was called america's college promise. when we do things that have to do with the education and economic opportunities around families and we make those programs last, we will be transforming our economy and the futures for our children. >> appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective and you are reinforcing the notion, i think we know where the focus of this bill is likely to be. thank you. up next, we will dig into the remarks we heard from the president over the coronavirus pandemic as the fda meets to debate whether or not to approve more booster shots. okkeeping. having someone else do your books for you.
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welcome back. we heard from president biden highlighting drops in cases of coronavirus and deaths and hospitalizations. i think everybody is being cautious right now about this current situation. it looks good. let's hope it continues. the president touted encouraging data from private companies. many have seen employee vaccination rates increase by 20 points as a result of vaccine requirements coming and have come in some places. there are 66 million eligible americans that have not received their first shot. infection rates are too high to say we have turned the corner. an fda advisory committee meets to consider recommending moderna booster shots. if authorized, moderna boosters could roll out for those over 65 and high risk adults with underlying conditions or front line jobs, the same groups
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available for the third pfizer shot. day two continues to consider boosters from johnson & johnson and mix and matching vaccine doses. questions have been raised about the data presented by both manufacturers here. briefing documents made available prior to the meeting show the fda's mixed opinion on whether extra shots is necessary and whether the data is sufficient. johnson & johnson recipients may be better off getting a pfizer or moderna booster. there's a lot to get into. we have monica alba and dr. peter otez. he directs the center for vaccine development at texas children's hospital and the deen of national school of tropical medicine at baylor college. monica, it was interesting to see that the white house -- the president chose to come out today to talk today about this. do you have further insight as to why they thought today was a good day for this? >> usually, these speeches, these covid updates, chuck, do
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come tied to some more administrative action or a bigger message that they want to push. you remember a couple of weeks and months ago when the president unveiled his six-prong strategy or they wanted to give that rollout of the boosters. today's was more of an overarching message, a progress report and message and a warning where the president wanted to make sure that they hear things are trending in the right direction but it's not the time to let up. even though we are heading into a fall with a lot of new tools in the tool kit, the president is reminding americans that we want to make sure that people are taking advantage of that. he did say for anybody who is eligible for a booster, make sure you are going to get that. for anyone who might be a parent of a youngster 5 to 11, if they get approved by the fda, which could happen in the next few weeks, he said, we want parents to be ready and planning for that possibility. as you just mentioned, this
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potential johnson & johnson and moderna booster of what may be best. will there be a mix and match? he wanted people to be vigilant and say once there's a green light, do be sure you go out there and get it. the president also wanting to pull back and talk about this department of labor emergency rule. when we talked about this, how is this going to work? we now know the rule has been written. we haven't seen the text yet. but that's one step closer. it could come as soon as next week. then we will know whether businesses will be fined or how that's going to work. the president talking about what he sees as the effectiveness of the vaccine mandate so far. there are still economic woes, everything we talked about yesterday. >> monica, is the vaccine mandate from the federal government the only plan the biden team has left to try to get vaccine resisters to take it? >> i think that's their most large lever of government that
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they have left, yes. they feel that they are prepared for the legal battles and challenges. this is something months ago the president said he was hesitant to do this. now this is the only thing that will move some people off the sidelines. >> monica, thank you. let me bring in dr. peter otez. i'm going to put up here just various quotes from some red flags and an fda briefing document about the johnson & johnson booster in particular. there's a lot of booster confusion this morning and this afternoon. data sets were not submitted in a sufficient time to verify. the fda has not independently verified the data. it was limited by small sample sizes. what does all of that tell you? are they not going to approve this booster?
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>> there's a possibility. in fairness to johnson & johnson, for pfizer, we had the data for vaccine effectiveness coming out of israel and the uk. that's what really i think helped push this over the edge with the fda. moderna and johnson & johnson are not used in those countries. we haven't really collected vaccine effectiveness data as much as we would like. it's a good vaccine. but there are deficiency in the packet. there's misunderstanding about the paper that came out yesterday in terms of johnson & johnson as a booster. >> let me ask you this. there's a report this morning that perhaps you are better off getting another -- getting one of the mrna vaccines as a booster if you took johnson & johnson. explain why that is. >> that's exactly what i was referring to. this was a pre-print that came
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out yesterday that showed that -- it looked at the combinations of the three vaccines, two mrna and the johnson & johnson vaccine. what it showed is that as a booster, the mrna vaccines tended to give a more robust level of neutraliing antibody. what i was referring to before is the fact that with the kinetics of the antibody response are different. the antibody levels don't peak until 60, 70, 80 days afterwards. this study cut short around 30 days. it stacked the deck looking at the effectiveness of the johnson & johnson vaccine. that has to be considered. the johnson & johnson vaccine in two doses gives you a different type of immune response. putting all of that together in the phase one and phase two
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data, the johnson & johnson vaccine as a two dose vaccine is still very good. >> how comfortable -- i know that pfizer, moderna, johnson & johnson have good scientific reputations. that said, how comfortable are you that we are relying on their data sets, their collection of data? shouldn't this be done independently? shouldn't we be asking maybe it's another academic institution, but shouldn't we collect the data on the vaccines that way? >> typically it would be a combination of the two. there would be independent studies. this is why pfizer had the advantage of the data collected by the ministry of health of israel and israeli scientists. same with the uk. you are right. this has been a problem that we have had with cdc that we have not really collected vaccine effectiveness data here in the u.s. at the level we should have. that's working to the
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disadvantage of the company. >> one other question about -- we get closer to seeing emergency authorization for pfizer for kids 5 to 11. i know overseas, some countries have approved only one dose. there are quite a few doctors that have brought up the idea that could two dose cause an increased risk of heart issues for younger folks during development stages? where are you on this issue? >> the myocarditis does increase in frequency. it's a rare event in the adolescent compared to the young adults. the concern is that as you get to younger myocarditis will increase. we have no evidence of that. the data packet submitted to the fda has 3,000 kids in it, which would be not enough to assess that myocarditis safety signal.
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the problem is a single dose of the vaccine is very modest in terms of its protective affect. some say 30% against delta. remember what we are trying to do. we are trying to prevent not only hospitalizations but long covid and neurological deterioration. that's the big unknown. how extensive does this filter down to kids? how important is it to prevent hospitalizations as well as long covid? >> is long covid a long-term risk. as always, it's great to get your expertise. thank you. coming up, from john deere to the film industry, major labor pains are being felt across the united states. thousands of union workers take to the picket lines or threaten to. workers have all the leverage these days. we have the details next. cloud? the cloud would give us more flexibility, but we lose control.
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it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. welcome back. if the last week has shown us anything, it's that workers may have more leverage than any time in recent history. the labor department reported that 4.3 million people, nearly 3% of the workforce, quit their jobs in august with the prospects of better and higher paying jobs available. workers and unions have used the current climate to push for better conditions. hollywood crews are threatening to strike if no deals are
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reached. 1,400 kellogg employees have been on strike for more than a week. 1,000 john deere employees went on strike after rejecting an offer from the company last night. that's the largest public sector strike in two years. each is different with workers having different demands. they point to the same thing. with a nationwide labor shortage, workers have the upper hand over management. right now in this environment, they're not afraid to use it. is it time for american to establish a third political party? i will speak with a former republican governor about the future of the gop as she calls on moderate members of her party to team up with democrats for now. you are watching "meet the press daily."
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welcome back. a little bit of breaking news. the january 6 select committee announced it will meet tuesday to vote on adopting a contempt report against steve bannon after the trump ally failed to
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comply with his subpoenas. the announcement only mentioned bannon, not mark meadows, kash patel or dan scavino. this would set up a vote in the full house, then refer the matter to the justice department for potential indictment and prosecution. we will monitor those developments. staying on this topic, the republicans opposed to donald trump now would be an opportunity to start a third party. the key to eradicate them is to support democrats. it's a fascinating debate. rational republicans are losing the party's civil war. the only way to do battle is for all of us to team up with our longtime political opponents the democrats. the organization they are helping to lead, renew america, took the next step in the pledge, endorsing 11 moderate
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democrats and ten moderate republicans on the house side voted to impeach the president. it's a pleasure to talk with you. i want you to respond to -- this is an interesting debate. jonah goldberg write the following. he is part of the never trump movement. he said this. asking right of center voters to vote for democrats is a heavy lift even if you can convince the democracy is at stake. biden has made that lift heavy are by making it clear he wants right of center voters to compromise on everything while he compromises on little or nothing. what do you say to that part of this debate in the small tent of never trumpers? >> we know it's going to be a difficult battle. it's good to see you. since we announced or put out
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the op-ed, i'm amazed the number of democrats that said, we are ready. we are worried about how far to the left the party is going. if you look at registrations across the country, you have 50% of registered voters who are now registered independent or unaffiliated. a large majority of those i am willing to bet are republicans. if you look at the numbers of republican versus democrat, you will see the republicans have been losing more. the time is ripe to tell people what we are after is supporting candidates who will stand up to the big lie, who are not part of the concerted effort to undermine the public's confidence in our electoral process. they will not agree on everything and we will not agree with them. but we agree on enough that has to do with our respect for the rule of law and our respect for the constitution to actually make this happen.
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>> it's clear to me that everybody has the same goal, which is eradicate trump from the republican party. i guess the question is, what is the best way to do it? why do you believe the best way -- it sounds like you think the best way is starve the republicans of power and maybe they will reform themselves. is that the hope? >> we are doing both. we are supporting those republicans -- incumbent republicans right now. it's an even number of incumbent democrats and republicans that we are supporting, because they are all people who have stood up to the big lie on both sides. we have been strategic in picking races where it's going to be close, where an endorsement and -- bringing them to the attention of the voting public as people who are willing to work for both sides and to get things done, willing to work for the american people, putting
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aside their party affiliations. most of the public does that anyway. people split their ballot. they are ready now to see something different happen so that they can feel we're actually getting these problems solved and not ending up in this continuous loggerhead that we find ourselves with congress. we can't get anything major done for the american people. >> right. it does seem as if there's a reward structure for dysfunction. there's a reward structure for obstruction. there's not a reward structure for success. >> that's what we are trying to provide. >> there's more money to be paid by steve bannon by not cooperating than cooperating. that's what has broken our system. >> i don't disagree with you. what we are saying is, now is the time to stand up and support those who are willing to take the risk, knowing they will be attacked. the incumbents we have endorsed are going to be in tight races,
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because they're in districts that are swing districts or that are marginal districts in their favor. they are the kind of people we want to see in congress, we believe. the public can look at these lists and give us some information as to who they should support and where, if they have the financial ability to do so, this can provide some financial support as well. you are right, nobody has had the backs of those who are willing to stand up to leadership. frankly, neither party. what leadership can do through their pac and the power they have and rules of the house and senate is to basically emasculate anybody who stands up to them. that's what these representatives have been willing -- they have been willing to take that chance. that's something we should support. >> do you hope that your willingness to essentially say, republicans want to support democrats here right now because of this threat of trump, threat of trumpism, threat to the democracy, in turn, do you want
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the democratic party to run on that issue, make that more front and center than anything else? >> it's an important. we are asking democrats to support republicans. if a democrat has the choice between a far left democrat candidate versus a centrist republican, we are saying, vote for the centrist republican. it's not just on the republicans. it's on the democrats so we can start to get a balance, the kind of balance we need. what's happening -- you have seen it. you know about it. you have talked about it. the concerted effort right now by the trump faction to undermine the public's confidence in or lectoral system. that's to make it easier to overturn the 2022 and 2024 elections. having said that and the president is telling republicans not to vote, i don't understand where that thinking is. be that as it may, people are going to vote. we want to send a strong message. >> longtime republican, former
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governor of new jersey, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective on this debate between republicans -- >> it's not over. >> do you help the democrats or start a third party? thank you very much. coming up, a look at something exciting coming soon from us here at "meet the press." stay with us to learn more.
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welcome back here on "meet the pretty daily." we're happy to announce the meet the press film festival returning for its fifth year on
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november 11 with in-person screenings this year in los angeles along with virtual screenings online. the festival, we've got some covid issues so we're excited to be doing it in l.a. early bird passes are available right now at fest.afi.com. tickets will be available to the general public on wednesday, october 20 at fest.afi.com. you won't want to miss it, a tremendous slate of films. as you know, what you'll see here, you'll eventually see nominated for oscars. it's always a really good slate and afi is a great partner. up next, what's happening to evangelical voters in the trump real estate? our latest episode of "meet the press reports" is about the growing divide. en is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief...
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yet another episode of our streaming show "meet the press reports." my colleague anne thompson asks the question, what's happening to evangelicals in the post-trump era? at one church, there is no post-trump era. >> some of the evangelical church i think is soft. i think they're cowardly. and they're trying to ride the fence between the left and the right. and so that's kind of where the divide is. >> reporter: here in the heart of the bible belt. >> i would say the person of faith who has been around church all my life, that the bible belt is unbuckling. >> reporter: across town, pastor phil nordstrom leads the life church. what do you mean that the bible belt is unbuckling? >> the branding of christianity
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has suffered. i think our association with political extremism has especially turned off a younger generation toward evangelicalism. one of the challenges we face is, who are we, what does it mean to be an evangelical? >> reporter: he's a self-described old school pastor. >> i'm probably pretty conservative. i don't come across as like i'm a liberal evangelical. but people get the feeling pretty quick that a pretty inclusive church, that everyone is welcome, that we're trying to not fight the culture wars from the pulpit. >> reporter: nordstrom builds his church with passengers he meets driving for uber and lyft. >> have a wonderful day. >> thank you. >> appreciate you.
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>> reporter: under his soft-spoken demeanor, a growing anger that the things he loves are misconstrued. >> i think the easy thing to do would be to say, i'm no longer an evangelical or i'm no longer a patriot. no, i'm still an evangelical. i'm a patriot. i believe in a personal relationship with jesus christ which is what an evangelical is. >> anne, this is a fascinating dive you and i have been taking on this. more people identify at white evangelical today and fewer go to church. >> yeah, increasingly what evangelicalism has become, it's not so much a religious movement. it's become a political movement. and it's a political movement that is certainly at home and very much in the camp of the republican party and not just the republican party, but the extreme right wing of the republican party.
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it is becoming a movement of donald trump. and that you see at the patriot church. why donald trump? i mean, they admit he is an imperfect messenger. he's not the kind of christian they all hope to be. but they very much support him because of his positions. his pro-life position, his position on illegal immigration. and they want to go a step further, they believe there are only two genders, there is no trans gender, and they are very much anti-gay-marriage. >> russell moore told me for an interview for our show tonight, he said in many ways donald trump is actually very much like a jimmy swaggart or a jim and tammy faye, that he comes from that lineage of the movement that he admits has always been a part of the movement that's been uncomfortable for the more
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devout evangelicals. >> he does, he embraces the prosperity gospel and in many ways would seem to be the personifaction of the prosperity gospel. >> it's fascinating, thank you for a sneak preview of your report. msnbc coverage continues with geoff bennett. >> it is great to be with you, i am geoff bennett and we're bracing for a major escalation this afternoon in the congressional investigation into january 6. it's deadline day for steve bannon to cooperate with the subpoena from the committee. and his attorney has already told the panel he won't testify or hand over any documents. now, if he's a no-show for today's deposition, the committee

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