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tv   MTP Daily  MSNBC  October 7, 2021 10:00am-11:00am PDT

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it's thursday. new testimony, new revelations, and new documents as congressional probes take on the biggest threats to our democracy. the former president's lies about our elections and the amplification of those lies. plus, disaster averted temporarily. schumer and mcconnell finitely reach an agreement to avoid a catastrophic default on u.s. debt, but not for long. doesn't buy a lot of time. what will congress and the white house do next? we'll find out soon enough. and the latest legal fallout from texas after a federal judge blocks enforcement of the state's new -- essentially a ban on abortion. but the ruling has been appealed and in many ways , this fight is probably just getting started.
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welcome to "mtp daily." i'm chuck todd. congress appears ton track to avoid one looming disaster for a period of time. once it passes a very short-term agreement to avoid a default. but there's a bigger threat to democracy that congress and the country is attempting to grapple with right now, the lies of donald trump, about our elections, and the platforms and people who are embracing them or amplifying them. the senate judiciary committee today released hundreds of pages of evidence, documents and transcripts, compiled as part of a report on the former president's attempts to pressure the justice department to overturn the 2020 election. the testimony includes new details about just how frighteningly close we were to a full-blown constitutional crisis as the former president tried desperately to cling to power. the former acting attorney general jeff rosen confirm that
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president trump desperately wanted a loyalist who believes his lies about the election to run the justice department and essentially overturn the election. trump only backed down at the very last minute when a whole bunch of people said they would renew en masse, including his white house counsel, and the mass exodus that would likely ensue is what finally convinced trump to back down. since that time, though, the former president's lies have metastasized in the gop. testimony as part of an investigation into that sham audit of arizona's election results as the country looks at similar ways to curry favor with trump and essentially undermine free and fair elections. >> this is without a doubt the biggest threat to our democracy in my lifetime. if elected officials continue to choose party over truth, then
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these procedures are going to continue on, these privately funded government-backed attacks on legitimate elections. as a republican who believes in democracy, i dreamed of one day going to a nation that was trying to build a democracy and help them out. perhaps a former soviet republic like aftermath of testimony from the facebook whistle-blower who accused the social media company of using its platform and not taking actions that could have perhaps held back some of the contributions that took place on january 6th. meanwhile, the house select committee on january 6th is awaiting documents from a group of trump's closest allies, including his former chief of staff. the deadline is today, so we
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don't know, but they haven't yet cooperated. all of this is a part of a congressional effort to unravel the biggest threats to our democracy, many of which are fueled by the former president. garrett haake has the latest on the senate judiciary committee report which is separate from the january 6th committee. jane timm is following the hearing on arizona's so-called audit. garrett, let me start with you. and again, i do think -- and i would totally understand if folks are conflating this report, the january 6th investigation. this was done by the senate judiciary committee. by the entire committee? is this something chuck grassley is signing off on too? or is this only the majority doing this investigation? >> no. look, this is a full committee product, although republicans on the committee take a bit of a different look at what ultimately happened here. this is narrowly focused, this report, on just the interactions between the white house and the department of justice. that is the purview of the
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judiciary committee. that's what they're focused on. so they talk about the u.s. attorney down in georgia being pressured to renew for not investigating abnormalities as trump wanted him to. they talk a great deal about this meeting on january 3rd in the oval office that you described earlier, describing it as a murder-suicide pact among senior officials that if the president tried to elevate someone or fire someone, all of them would renew en masse. it's alarming when you dig into it, although i will say chuck grassley said, look, this is the president getting talked down out of a bad idea. he didn't go down this road, so it's not so bad. grassley appearing at a rally with former president trump in iowa coming up in the future. but democrats see what they found in this report as really alarming and are talking about a legislative solution to turn what's been an unwritten rule about interference between the white house and the doj into something much more formalized
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so you can't have a future president interfering or trying to interfere in elections this same way. >> i would like to know what they are thinking that would pass constitutional muster. i get what they're saying, but, boy, there's a separation of powers aspect there that i think that they're going to have trouble with. i want to go through a couple of aspects of this report because the president only backed down after hours of trying to do this in that meeting on january 3rd, and the efforts that mark meadows was having, i mean, i got to remind people here on page 3 of this report, this whole idea of italy gate, nothing is crazier than this idea that somehow the cia was using military satellites to manipulate voting machines and change these trump votes to biden votes. i mean, the chief of staff for the president of the united states thought this was a
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viable-enough piece of potential evidence that he wanted an investigation on him. this is the part that i don't understand how chuck grassley just looks the other way. >> well, look, yeah. italy gate reads like an election interference mad lib. insert noun, insert country, insert action. it's totally ridiculous, but i think it does speak to the inability that so many people who worked for former president trump had of saying "no" to him, which we have documented time and time again, which is also a problem with lawmakers up here. look, the grassley comments, the fact that he's going to appear with him does speak to the sway former president trump still has over this party, and the fact that even republicans who would like to move on from him do not want to publicly cross him. that is still the last thing any of them want to do even if they think he's not the future of the party. he's still the past of the party. the appetite to tangle with the former president, even on something has the nuts as italy
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gate is pretty close to zero in the congressional republican party. >> what is the january 6th committee -- they're going to find out in a minute, they're going to cooperate with the subpoenas. what is their plan b if there's no cooperation? >> i think we're all expecting this to turn into potentially protracted court fight. the january 6th committee members knew that there were people who they could invite and there were people they could subpoena and there would be varying levels of cooperation and that those four would probably provide the lowest level of possible cooperation, either simply refusing to of it, hiding behind executive privilege, if that could be exercised by the former president on their behalf. it's not entirely clear what their path forward will be, but they have made it very clear that they view their investigation as in for the long haul. and so if this becomes a court fight, so be it. >> i think bannon has the
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hardest executive privilege case to make of those four individuals. garrett, thank you. jane, let me move to you. i'd like to you try to explain what we're seeing in congress today. you're following this. congress wanted to do a hearing on the sham fraud audit that took place in arizona. so explain what they're learning from this hearing and is it surfacing anything? or is it part of some food fight? >> chuck, republicans and democrats are essentially living in different realities when it comes to this audit, this sort of partisan ballot review that they all an audit. we heard andy biggs and jamie raskin go at it within 20 minutes saying he doesn't know who won the election in arizona in 2020. >> you know what? let me play that. let me play that exchange and we'll keep talking about it on the other side because it was something.
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>> you accept this audit which showed that joe biden won and indeed by more votes than -- >> that is not what the audit concluded, mr. raskin. you know better than that. have you read the whole audit or cherry picked? that we would have expected to be very similar and it was -- so anything that mai anurd to -- >> i'm happy to yield to you for that. who won in arizona, donald trump or -- >> we don't know because as the audit demonstrates clearly, mr. raskin, there are a lot of issues with this election that took place. >> like a good grift there, even though the audit confirmed something else, they want to say, oh, no, there's more, there's more, there's more. >> yeah, because they're going to see what they want to see in this report. you know, these third-party contractors who had little-to-no experience in doing this kind of work, they released this report that found the similar hand
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re-count had more votes for joe biden. but they spent two hours talking to the senate and telling me the different ways there could have been wrongdoing, things like, well, there might be a credible answer, but we don't understand. when you talk to the experts, experts across the board will tell you they're talking about things they don't understand and voter fraud. so that's what we're seeing again and again in this hearing where republicans are starting to say what about this one issue? and democrats are saying we shouldn't have audits at all. it's not alternative facts. it's alternate realities whether or not these reviews exist. it's becoming the stolen election lie. we do not see an actual discussion of whether this partisan review was conducted well or not because we're still debating over who won the election. >> which is obviously stunned and obviously only taking place because one person insists that that's what the party has to
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say. jane, thank you. thank you, garrett haake. joining me now is connecticut democratic senator richard blumenthal, member of the senate judiciary committee. he also chaired the facebook hearing earlier this week, which is our point about the amplification aspects of this challenge to our democracy. but senator blumenthal, before i go deeper into facebook, let's talk about this report that your committee just released. you know, the details, the january 3rd meeting, how close do you think we were to a coup? >> we were a hair's breath away, chuck. this moment was really a kind of break the glass instance where a few people standing up to a president who was desperate, willing to do anything and his allies also engaged in pressure tactics against the department
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of justice, really engaged in an unprecedented abuse of power. and you know and americans should know that the prosecutors of the department of justice should never be tools of the president's partisan or political interests. they should be above politics. as a former prosecutor, united states attorney, the chief federal prosecutor in connecticut as well as attorney general for 20 years, in this instance the president really tried to manipulate and subvert the department of justice right town to that january 3rd meeting when rosen and donahue and others sat with him and talked him down after three hours. but it was very, very close to destroying our democracy, a kind of saturday night massacre in that instant. >> in fact, it took the threat
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of a saturday night massacre, looks like, to keep the president from following through on it. i'm curious. obviously you do a report like this in this committee, you'd like to strengthen the idea that there are norms here that a white house doesn't interfere in politically sensitive things at the justice department. but is there a law congress could pass that you think could pass the separation of powers test in the constitution? >> great question, chuck. and the answer is yes. there are already statutory prohibitions. i urge they be so and i'm hoping maybe we'll have bipartisan momentum in favor of strengthening not only the norms and the policy guidelines which prevent -- they should prevent any department of justice investigation of election before it's certified.
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attorney general barr weakened those policies. they too should be embodied in statute. i think the establishment of strict statutory prohibitions against improper interference could pass muster. >> how would you describe senate republican members of the judiciary committee and their participation in this investigation? >> i sat through the rosen and pac interviews. as you've correctly said, the president forced the resignation of united states attorney pac serving in atlanta, georgia, when he wouldn't do his bidding. i was chilled by that. it was a really -- horror movie to relive those times through the eyes of rosen.
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i read the donahue interview, and i think my republican colleagues couldn't help but be reacting in the same way as public officials, as members of the senate. but they are fearful of the president. as you and others have observed, they are very reluctant to cross him. >> let me talk about the facebook whistle-blower and what you took away from it. in many ways, she potentially provided you a road map with what to ask for from facebook, things like that. but the question really is, we've been down this road before with social media companies. we get to a point where there seems to be bipartisan interest in doing something, and then the something, nobody can figure out what that is. let's talk about simply regulating algorithms. do you believe that could get
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done, that that is what's next? and do we have the eight weeks to do it or do we have to create new agencies? >> it can get done. and i think it has to be one of the priorities because remember the role that algorithms play in this process. they are essentially the drivers of destructive content. they amplify it to children and disinformation in countries around the world and in this country to create and exacerbate conflict. those eating disorders, the online bullying, the self-injury that's so troubles parents and rightly so, i say as a parent, can be stopped or at least minimized if the algorithms that drive that content can be open so people can know what's in them. there are block boxes right now, and they can be regulated. that is one of the parts of the blueprint that the whistle-blower outlined for us,
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and it is a -- part of that blueprint that may require a separate agency or maybe a division within the federal trade commission trying to decide what exactly is appropriate. but definitely the need for reform is there because only facebook, literal only facebook knows how its algorithms work. they've denied access to researchers and computer scientists, as well as us, and there has to be visibility and transparency. >> let me ask you this. if boeing has proprietary equipment for an airplane, they would have to share it with the faa? >> they would have to share it with the faa and with safety bodies. we know something about the errors that boeing made and the 737, and they were subject to greater transparency after investigations. so propriety information has
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limits, and e those limits needo be recognized as outmoded. algorithms and other aspects of facebook's business model weaponizes anger, self-hatred for children, really plays a destructive role in our discourse. >> do you think the regulation is open them up to liability? >> excellent question. and i've advocated eliminating the shield to private liability that big tech currently has. it's an outmoded protection. it's near-committee immunity from suit, upwards of 10, 15 years. i think we're at the point now where facebook can be held accountable along with the other big tech companies without reducing its financial success
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materially. and that's really one of the most powerful points made by the whistle-blower. she said facebook offers a false choice, profitability versus responsibility. there can be both as long as facebook is held accountable and subject to the rules that everyone else has to follow so that it can be liable for the harm that it does. >> senator richard blumenthal, democrat from connecticut. some meaty topics we asked you today. appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. up next, the toughest abortion law in the country is currently on hold after a federal judge said that texas' near total ban on abortion violates the constitution. later, positive signs of the pandemic as cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are now all going in the same positive direction, which means down. you're watching "mtp daily."
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texas's near-total abortion ban is on hold, at least for now after a federal judge's overnight ruling temporarily blocking it from being enforced. the biden administration is the one that sued to stop the law, calling it unconstitutional and they found a federal judge to agree with them, writing in his opinion, from the moment sb 8 went into effect, women have been unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways that are protected by the constitution. this court will not sanction one more day of this offensive deprivation of this important right. texas filed an appeal on the order last night, sending it to the 5th circuit court of appeals. for more, our justice corporate pete williams. pete, you see the words 5th district court of appeals and you think, i think i have a feeling i know which way this is going to go. how long do you expect this law to be -- to be --
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>> on hold? >> on hold. >> for several weeks, i would say. what's going to happen is the state asked for an injunction -- to lift the stay basically. the government is going to have to respond to that and then the court might have oral argument. i don't know. it depends on how desperately they want to rule on this. the fundamental question is this. does the federal government have the authority to come in and ask a court to stop a state from doing something that it passed its own law? what the federal government says is yes, the federal government has the authority and the need to make sure that states don't deprive people of their constitutional right and they say the problem here is that texas designed this law to drive people of a right without giving them any chance to contest it this court. that's the soft underbelly, he says, of this law, and that's where he says the government has the power to step in. we'll see what the 5th circuit says about that. >> so because the public didn't get a chance to question the law --
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>> abortion providers specifically. >> is the reason why it doesn't necessarily mean he agrees it's unconstitutional overall, that the process was unconstitutional or the law itself was unconstitutional? >> that's not the issue. the issue is not the constitutionality of abortion because until the court changes its mind, the supreme court, we know what the answer is. the answer by existing supreme court precedent, the law of the land right now is that a state can't restrict abortion before availability, which is 23 to 24 weeks. so that's really not the issue here. the issue here is can texas create a law like this that doesn't allow people to challenge it? >> you don't expect the 5th to immediately lift this stay? >> well, no, i don't, because i think this is such a difficult question, such a novel question. it's a hard question. i mean, the supreme court said it's a tough question. they said that's why we're not going to put a hold on it because these are novel questions and we're not exactly sure how this works. >> another person says there's a
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lot of questions, so we're not going to put a hold on it. sounds like the same logic can be used for either side. >> and some people have criticized the supreme court for not doing its homework and saying it should take a more thorough look. this judge clearly did. it's a 113-page opinion. >> i got to ask you two questions related to your beat. the number of supreme court justices who have decided to verbalize their concerns about politicization of the courts, my word. >> or the perception. >> perception, yes, whether it's justice alito, justice sotomayor, what's going on? >> and justice barrett. >> and justice thomas to a point. is this just -- it was inevitable, even the supreme court -- guys are going to start chattering more? or is this a bitterly divided court? >> i think it's a little of both. briar started this largely because he has a book coming out. he has a book that's out saying
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we're not just political hacks. we make decisions, and the reason we often divide is that we have different views of what the law is, not that we're partisan hacks. so he sort of started all this. and then i think the justices, you know, they can read the papers. they know that the public opinion polls that have recently come out have been very low numbers for the supreme court, and they also know that this is a highly contentious term when there are questions important to conservatives. so they're trying to foam the run away. >> we're just hearing this senate judiciary committee has this full report between the president and all this. one of the recommendations is to strengthen a law to try to create a forced distance between the white house and the justice department. senator blumenthal said he thought there was some statutory things -- yeah, except when has that -- it's been a tough thing to enforce even when you find a violation of it. >> right. and the senate report says the
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president is subject to the hatch act. i just don't know -- i haven't refund that question. i don't know whether that's a settled question or not. presidents engage in politics all the time. they do that thing where they run for re-election, for example, and they advocate their own election. so i don't know whether it's subject to the hatch act, but if that's the enforcement mechanism, i wouldn't hold my breath. >> i've been a believer that you're better off asking a democratic president to sign something, new executive orders and then force the next president to rescind that order. because i don't think the legislative can tell the executive how to manage its business. that's what we ultimately find out. >> that is the problem. what the senate report says are the chief of staff mark meadows and justices violate not only the law, but these established norms that have been set up by past attorneys general that go back basically to watergate saying -- >> have you been indicted on norms before? who do we indict on norms? >> that's right.
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you can't. they make clear it's a policy, it's on justice department policy. the white house is clearly not bound by it, but it's one of the norms in down. >> that is campaigns essentially litigate. pete williams, thank you, sir. >> you bet. up next, disaster seemingly temporarily averted as the senate strikes a deal to punt the deet ceiling crisis for a couple months. get ready to do this all over again, but with the holidays in the front view mirror there. plus, the latest on that massive oil spill off the coast of california as we get our first look at the punctured pipeline that caused this. you're watching "meet the press daily."
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you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ . we have reached agreement to extend the debt ceiling through early december, and it's our hope we can get this done as soon as today. >> welcome back. that was the senate majority leader chuck schumer on the senate floor this morning announcing that a deal is afoot, but it's temporarily, if you will, a deal that avoids economic calamity. it comes less than a day after the senate republican leader told schumer he was willing to do a stopgap solution after weeks of refusing to engage on the issue at all. the short-term deal will trays deal enough for the government to pay its bills beginning of december, giving democrats more full time to figure out a solution. but that is still a mystery what
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the go-it-alone solution will be because it's clear republicans don't want to help raise the debt ceiling. >> the majority didn't have a plan to prevent default, so we stepped forward. the pathway our democratic colleagues have accepted will spare the american people any near-term crisis while definitively resolving the majority's excuse that they lacked time to address the debt limit through the 304 reconciliation process. >> i wouldn't make any plans to travel in december if i were you, but, you know, after 11 years, my wife and family know whatever holiday plans we have, don't assume dad dad's going to be there until the last minute. >> bring in ali vitaly with the latest from capitol hill. so mitch mcconnell blinked. why? >> well, i mean, this can be viewed a few ways, chuck. in the first instance, we were hearing from democrats yesterday before this deal came into view that they were considering a
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narrow carveout of filibuster reform that would have allowed them to go this alone in the same way that republicans have said they wanted democrats to do all along. but the mechanism of how republicans wanted democrats to raise the debt ceiling was always the central issue here. mcconnell has been consistent that he says -- and he's still saying this, that democrats should go it alone through the reconciliation process. every democratic senator who i spoke to yesterday, though, even in the aftermath of this deal said there is no way, no how they're doing this through reconciliation. so that's an impasse we're still going to get a dance-around a few weeks from now when this expires in december. the other piece of this, though, it's mcconnell trying to continue to force them towards reconciliation but making sure they don't make moves on the filibuster. that's not to say that people like joe manchin and kyrsten sinema were necessarily on board. they have taken that strong line on the filibuster before. but at the same time, the charter we heard on the hill was enough that mcconnell ended up
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coming to democrats and saying let's make a deal on this at least in the short term. >> so how -- don't we assume that this is -- now that democrats found what is mitch mcconnell's pain threshold, we found what it is. he truly doesn't want to see any more erosion on the filibuster. some people posit that he actually wanted to watch the democrats erode it to have the excuse to do it himself. but it's clear he doesn't want to see this filibuster geriatrics even if he's in charge. >> yeah. that seems clear. and he has had dire warnings on this before basically saying to democrats if you do this, just watch the scorched-earth campaign going on in the senate. we've seen a decrease from the days of old when republicans and democrats actually used to work together on this. it can only get worse if you start making these kinds of changes to the basic procedural functions of the latest body
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works. at the same time, though, there are democratic activists and advocates who i talked to who say that if you're not going to do the state of you campaigned on when you have the power to do it, then what's the point? that's the pressure the democrats are feeling right now on this, and, frankly, had they gone this way, it's not to say it would have been a smooth-sailing decision for democrats either. in the same way that this is clearly a pressure point for mitch mcconnell, democrats would have opened pandora's box on this. it would have been others saying, hey, if you're going to do this on the debt ceiling, why won't you do it on voting rights and gun violence prevention? that would have hoped a whole new world for democrats too. so it's a temporary pain point avoided, but only temporarily. >> ali, the other thing that i don't quite get is why isn't the democratic position that this will be the last time there's a debt ceiling standoff? i am -- i am surprised by -- there's a handful of democrats that want to get rid of it completely, but it's not the
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main point. it's almost as of some democrats want to keep it around because they never know when they might want to use it politically? >> yeah, this is all the politics of the price tag too here, chuck. for republicans on the debt ceiling, that's their whole function is trying to get democrats, tag them with a number so that next year in the midterms they can run ads that say democrats voted to raise the debt ceiling x trillion number of dollars, big scary numbers maker good ads sometimes. but on the other side of this, there are some in the house and in the senate on the democratic side who joke about raising the debt ceiling to a bajillion dollars and basically getting rid of this crisis going forward. that's not necessarily a joke that some others in leadership like to hear laid, but at the same time, it is an option. but the politics of this here is the thing that has functioned the entire time in the background. the u.s. has never defaulted on its debt, but now it's in
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proximity to the midterms, it's the natural football to toss back and forth. >> i tell you, democrats can get more credibility if they actually are devising a plan. there are other ways to do it besides cajillion you take a negative vote. ali vitaly on capitol hill for us. ali, thank you. >> thanks. before we take a break, we want to update you on the massive oil spill off the california coast. the painstaking cleanup of what the coast guard is calling a major marine casualty event continues. the ntsb is now joining the investigation as the investigation continues into how long the pipeline was leaking before they saw it and were able to shut it up. the coast guard notified the state's response team about an unknown sheen in the water at 6:13 p.m. last friday evening.
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according to preliminary findings found in federal documents obtained by nbc news, that was eight hours before the energy company's low-pressure alarm indicated a possible pipeline failure so when the documents show the company shut down the line at 6:01 a.m. on saturday. obviously, a lot of people would like to know what happened in the intervening hours. the ceo of amplify energy, which tones pipeline, the defendant the company saying they acted as soon as they were aware of the spill. how soon was that? the coast guard released new images of the damaged pipeline saying it continues to investigate multiple causes of the leak. among those, one hypothesis is whether a cargo ship's anchor could have hooked onto the pipeline and causing it to rupture. coming up, even as the pandemic appears to be improving here at home, it's a very different story in other parts of the world. we'll talk to an expert trying to get vaccines where they're most needed. you're watching "meet the press daily."
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welcome back. let's get to the latest coronavirus facts you need to know this hour. pfizer officially asked the fda to approve its vaccine for children aged 5 to 11. they made that application official this morning. this was an expected and necessary step to get shots into kids' arms. an fda advisory committee meeting is set for this month, meaning emergency use authorization could come before halloween. the white house covid response team has a message at yesterday's briefing. vaccine requirements work. so now the white house is doubling down, releasing a new report highlighting how dozens of organizations increased employee vaccination rates by at least 20 percentage points through may. united airlines went from having a 59% fully vaccinated workforce to 99% in just two months. the president will push that message on his trip to chicago today where he'll make remarks on the importance of getting vaccinated and requiring others
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to do the same. we're looking at you, kyrie irving. all of this comes as pandemic appears to be staying on the right track in this country. the seven-day moving average of new cases finitely dipped below 100,000 for the first time since august 3rd. that means new cases have dropped nearly 40% in just one month. but this remains a global pandemic and less than half the world's population has received at least one dose of the covid vaccine. as we've seen before, an outbreak overseas, say, maybe india, can quickly turn into an outbreak here at home. we saw that movie once. are we going to see it again? we'll talk to a leader in the global fight against the pandemic about those challenges right after this. ♪♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win.
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the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement welcome back. as we told you before the break, the pandemic is improving here at home but only one-third of the world is fully vaccinated, leaving billions of people vulnerable to the virus. today the world health organization announced a new strategy to try to get the world vaccinated, calling on wealthy countries to prioritize donations to meet a 70% global vaccination goal by the middle of next year. we're far away from that goal. most of these countries are in africa where barely 5% of the entire continent is vaccinated. less than 3% of people in poor countries have received at least one dose of the vaccine according to our world data.
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covax, the organization largely responsible for trying to deliver vaccines to those poorer nations, slashed its delivery expectations. that means for africa, 150 million fewer shots by year's end. an organization is working to end that divide, and its president joins us now. dr. shah, the continent of africa, look at what happened on the subcontinent of india in july and in june and we're all watching and we knew this delta variant was circulating, and we sat here as a country and said, oh, we're declaring our independence from the virus. this idea that somehow these variants weren't going to make it here, it did and we know what happened. what is your level of concern that we see the same thing on the full continent of africa? >> well, thanks, chuck, for
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having me. my level of concern is extremely high. rockefeller experts have pointed out it's four to six times more likely that a variant of international concern is going to come from a developing country as opposed to an industrial nation at this point in time in the course of the pandemic. and frankly, if you have africa at less than 5% of immunization and frankly getting fewer doses than they were promised and planned for and that they had planned to distribute in the coming months, it's actually going to be quite, quite challenging. it's highly likely the next delta variant, whichever letter it ends up on, is coming from africa or another underdeveloped nation. >> this country is awash in vaccines, we've been accused of doing a little bit of hoarding as far as boosters are concerned. if you could identify areas
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where we could improve quickly, what would it be, to increase the supply? >> first and foremost, there is an urgent need to donate doses that are otherwise going to expire and go to waste. actually the united states has been on the forefront of donations and the recent white house summit on international response allowed president biden to commit another 500 million doses. the countries that are hoarding doses that are looking at big expirations are the united kingdom, germany, and others. and there is real opportunity for them to accelerate their donations right now with urgency. i think a second reality is, we need much more transparency in witch firms have which supply cast and how much are they going to be willing to dedicate to lower income countries that frankly can play lower prices for those vaccinations. we saw recent indication today about discussions between the white house and moderna. everybody has to do their part
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and there has to be more transparency. the pfizer vaccine requires cold chain support and that's hard to come by for most of africa. we need a biggsbigger effort. we need vaccine to export vaccine. that's the primary reason covax had to reduce its expectations in terms of quantities of deliveries. african nations who have already raised money for vaccines from finding them on the international market. >> i know india was being accused of hoarding a bit, and they have some great manufacturing capacity, but you answered that question. what about the johnson & johnson? that's the one-shot. this was supposed to be the answer to our delivery issues, you don't need the super cold storage. is manufacturing that much a problem, is that why that's not
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in as high a circulation? >> yeah, clearly we haven't seen volumes of manufacturing that is what was expected and clearly the merck capacity doesn't appear to be online yet for that vaccine. but, you know, stepping back, since you have such an important audience, i would just say, the world has come together before in public/private efforts to go big, to imagine achieving this global target of 70% coverage all over the planet. we've been doing that for 20 years on childhood vaccination and have saved millions and millions of lives. i think this comes down to real political will. in wealthier nations and in developing countries, let's work together, let's set this goal and let's produce the $50 billion of financing, unlock the billion doses per month of supply necessary to achieve that target. and invest in the people and the cold chain required in 70 countries around the world to get there. doing that might seem like a big effort at $50 billion, that seems like a lot of money, that's what we estimate is
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required, but it will save trillions of dollars in lost economic output if we have another variant which will come from a place where the vaccine is running wild. >> i'm a little low on time and my earpiece is going to be mad at me, but did you expect the g7 would have been more of a leader on this and it just hasn't? >> well, i think the g-7, the g20 i think has the biggest opportunity to lead. next week are the meetings of the world bank and the international monetary fund, the imf. they can produce the resources required. but this also takes real leadership, real operational leadership. and that's what's missing right now, country by country. >> that's pretty clear. we have a global leadership problem on that front. rajeev shah from the rockefeller foundation, it's good to see you, sir, thanks for coming on. watch "meet the press reports,"
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our streaming show available on demand on peacock tomorrow. it's the space race, the billionaires versus the nation states. msnbc coverage will continue with geoff bennett after this break. got a couple of bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. what do you say we see what this bird can do? woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. looks like we're walking, kid. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ before we talk about tax-smart investing, what's new? -well, audrey's expecting... -twins! grandparents! we want to put money aside for them, so...change in plans. alright, let's see what we can adjust. ♪♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans.
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it is great to be with you. i'm geoff bennett and we are monitoring several breaking stories on what is a very busy

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