tv Deadline White House MSNBC October 1, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
hi, everyone, we come on the air after developments on capitol hill that will have great consequences for the priden presidency. president biden right now on capitol hill meeting with dpemts as negotiations are -- with democrats as negotiations are underway over just about every important piece of president biden's domestic agenda. it is his first ever personal appearance before the democratic caucus. nancy pelosi said there will be a vote today on president biden's signature proposal, the social infrastructure bill. progressives signalled they would block the vote and the bill if there was no vote on the
social infrastructure bill. this week, the president and his top aides have been deeply involved around the clock in talks with the hill. here's what press secretary january psaki had to say about the state of those negotiations today. -- we'll work on finding that for you. the "washington post" laying out the stakes for the democratic party writes this, quote, the consequences for inaction remain great. democrats believe they seized control of the white house and congress in the 2020 election in part by championing biden's campaign pledge to build back better through sizable new investments in the country's inner workings. a failure to deliver could damage their standing in the eyes of voters ahead of the midterm elections in 2022. the gridlock, though, in congress comes at a perilous moment for the biden presidency, flagging approval ratings revealing a real serious need to turn the momentum back in his direction. "new york times" writes this. president biden's approval
rating monkey democratic constituencies has declined considerably in recent months eroding or reversing decades long patterns in public opinion. the as yet unanswerable question is that slide a momentary dip a fluke of a tough moment of headlines or a warning sign of deeper dissatisfaction among democratic leaning voters. donna ebb ards joins us. jonathan lemere, and on capitol hill for us, nbc news national political reporter, a is a hill kapur. tell us what is happening up there? >> president biden just walked into the capitol, greeted by speaker pelosi and house democratic leaders who i should say were very happy to see him because he is going to speak to a democratic caucus that has been guided on way forward over the twin pillars of president biden's agenda, that
infrastructure bill which has passed the senate. centrist democrats in the house are demanding an immediate speedy vote on that. they want to get that, have it on the president's desk, go home, celebrate, come back and get to work on the social safety package. progressive democrats have threatened to vote the infrastructure bill down if it comes up saying it must be tied to an ironclad agreement to move that social safety net package of multiple trillions of dollars that you point out is a centre piece of president biden's agenda, investment in health care, child care, universal pre-k. this is all on the line here. speaker pelosi has struggled to corral her caucus. she is talented at this, but she's dealing with a waver thin majority and several blocks on her left, and the centrists are making demands that are hard to reconcile. president biden has to get
everyone to an understanding on the reconciliation bill, where it is going, making the progressives believe it is going to go ahead, the centrists are not going to kill and it making the centrist believe this is going to become law. >> i am sure you are hearing better analysis than i am but a senior white house aide said today the primary emotion is patience that the lbj style he aspires to is one of using carrots, not sticks, kindness and barbecues and those relationships not of coming in and delivering any tough love. what are you hearing about the approach they are taking today? >> that largely has been the approach throughout this process at times to the frustration of some democrats who wish the president would act with more urgency trying to get this done seeing the divisions growing in the house over this summer. but he approaches this as he would when he was a senator. he would listen to both sides, try to bring people together on
common ground. find broad agreement and at the end go in for the final agreement. as a senate man doing to the house, the house has felt neglected do to the white house paying broad attention to the senate and those two, manchin and sinema trying to get this done. he will be telling democrats this is our chance to do something big, something that's going to transform america's government's relationship with its citizens. if we fail to get it done it will be a blow to our chances in the mid terms and may be proof that government can't get big things done anymore. he wanted to restore trust in the government, prove that it can reach out and help its citizens after four years of attacks on institutions from donald trump. and he has warned before, and we expect the hear it again.
if it fails, the republican party will align it swef the january 6th insurrectionists because it is playing a game chick within the debt ceiling. would we need get this done to prove we can do our job here, that washington can still work. >> that's the president's private and public theory the case. not just of his presidency but of this political moment for democrats. when i said is the president frustrated with progressives? he said no, they are playing for this agenda. and i said is he upset with the med rats, in, they are, too. do you think there is that much space for political maturity in washington? >> i think there is. i don't think this is the kind of thing that you can muscle through or that you twist arms into. first of all, largely among democrats -- i have talked to centrist democrats and those who are not as vocal and progressives that there is shared value among democrats
around the broad pieces of the president's agenda. and i think today you are going to hear -- democrats are going to hear from a president who is saying you have worked this hard, we've come this far and now we have to just put it over the top. and, you know, the fortunes of house and senate democrats are tied to the success of this president. i think everyone realizes that. frankly, i am not concerned at all that -- about them not reaching an agreement. i actually do believe they are going to reach an agreement. and there is no hard and fast deadline. it doesn't have to be today or tomorrow. and they will get the legislative language together. and i think that democrats are going to be largely united. and that is go put the president in a better position to sell this across the board to the american people. and i think that that will lift his political fortunes as well.
>> let me play you something senator klobuchar said on this network earlier today. >> there is general agreement in the democratic party that we have to get these things done, that we can't let our forests burn and hurricanes get worse and do nothing about climate change. the numbers may be different. that's where the negotiations come in. but for the large part of the policies, people are in agreement, and we simply have to get across the finish line and get this done. not everyone is going to get every single detail that they want. but in the end, i am confident that we are going to do good for the american people. failure is not an option. >> on the substance of both packages, the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the human infrastructure piece, overwhelming majorities, including republicans, are for both packages. and i wonder if there is an effort to sort of reframe where we are now, that there is not
in-fighting on substance among the democratic party. there -- as senator klobuchar says there is agreement. >> there is cohesion being papered offer by the narrow majorities. it is a situation where 95% of democrats in both chambers are fully on board with president biden's agenda, the $3.5 trillion figure, the infrastructure bill. but they need 98 to 99% because those are the margins they are dealing with. that's why it is so difficult to get across the finish line. that's why president biden is key to moving those final how would oath votes. progressives have been making a number of points for a while that these programs in this multiple trillion dollar package are very popular, vision and dental coverage. the child cash payments of $250 to $300 per kid per month that are coming to a lot of millions
of families, most parents around the country are very popular. by the way, that dries up in an election bill if they don't pass the social infrastructure bill. that dries up. that's one of many thing driving the party forward on the reconciliation bill. there is a sense in the democratic party that maybe they made a mistake that they shouldn't have marketed it as a $3.5 trillion bill. the goal there was to speak to progressives who wanted something big and bold and transformative. president biden's desire to be an fdr sized type of president. but figures like joe manchin can't stup that price tag. also senator kyrsten sinema. those two won't be in this
meeting because they are senators and this is a meeting with house democrats. but they are key to passing this bill. >> senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake is right outside the room where the meeting is happening. tell me what you heard as folks were on their way in. >> look, this is the second meeting of the day for these democrats after a leaky first meeting. they have all checked their cell phones at the door here. i think what the expectation here is is that biden is going to calm some nerves here. house democrats and democrats more broadly in the capitol have been at each other the last week and going back the last couple of weeks about this deadline, about the fate of these packages. and biden has been pretty consistent in his public statements and according to reporting of white house colleagues behind the scenes saying this is going the take time, this is the time when we have to stay together. i think he is delivering the same message now and unless he
can walk into that room with a agreement that he guarantees himself would include joe manchin and kiersten sinema i have a hard time believing he can convince the 50 or so progressives who want to vote no on the infrastructure bill, it will take a while. the other side of the coin, the president could go into the room, thank everyone for their hard work, including the moderates who have been fighting for the infrastructure bill and so something like, we know this is going to take more time. we are this close to get this done. it might give everybody an offramp to go home and recalibrate. getting the huge infrastructure bill done in the dark of night or at the last second today by forcing a vote on infrastructure is going to upset a lot of people. i don't think that's the route the president necessarily wants to go. but we will hear more when he comes out, whether this turns into a marathon meeting like it was this morning or more of a
quick pep rally. we'll find out. >> garrett, the president has been on the phone around the clock. what was the sort of ask? i imagine the speaker invited him down. what was sort of -- what was the piece that she felt he could help with by being there? >> well, that is the right way to look at it. every indication has been that it was the speaker inviting him down, not the president saying, let me come down. i think this may be a situation where they need to be reminded that everybody is on the same page here and that this agenda will sink or swim with all of them together. that's been the message that the president has been giving. he has been mostly talking to senators, too much of i think that's the other part of this. we talk so much about joe biden the old washington hand. he's a senate guy. i think he has always felt more comfortable communicating with his fellow senators working with those chambers. i haven't found a single house
democratic other than speaking pelosi who tells me they have taken with the president this welcome back or in the last two weeks about this. he had one big meeting the white house with the moderates and the progressive but as far as i can tell he hasn't had a level of personal outreach with house democrats. now they have the opportunity to ask him their questions or present their grievances to the president. that still goes a long way in politics. >> it goes a long way in life. i want to keep adding to our conversation and our coverage. claire microsoft casse kill keeps talking about our president having been a former senator, with this personal meeting a ramping up of engagement with house democrats. as someone who sat in a room with a president pushing their agenda understanding it is a party who all sort of rise or
fall together, what changes -- what changes when a president is in a room with his own party asking them to pass a bill, claire? >> i think everybody realizes that it is not about aoc or the progressive caucus or bernie sanders or kiersten sinema or joe manchin. this is about president biden and what is bess for the people. what is interesting about today is we are talking about self-inflicted wounds over self imposed deadlines. nobody is forcing this deadline today except democrats. so i think there is a deal there to be made, nicole. i have been on the phone all day. i have been talking to -- admittedly, i am a senate gal. admittedly i have been talking to senators and not house members. i think there is a sentence in the senate that joe biden needed to work the house, needed to lean in on the house. i think there is a deal that can be made around $2 trillion. the interesting thing that
people forgetting to say is that joe manchin and sinema and the progressives agree on a lot of the policies in the reconciliation bill. they agree on the policies. they agree on some of the tax changes. they agree on the tax credit. they agree on some of the pre-k stuff. there is a lot of big stuff they agree on. by the way, $2 trillion is a boatload of money. i mean, that's a lot of money to put into the system for climate change and other things. so i think there is a deal to be made there. i think the progressives are gonna have to live with what they can get. i am not sure they can get a lot more than $2 trillion out of either manchin or sinema, and it is what it is. and hopefully they do not take a vote today and have it go down in flames. or hopefully people don't walk out in a handcuff. hopefully things aren't said that are intemp rat. hopefully everyone takes a deep
breath and realizes let's not have self-inflicted wounds over self imposed deadlines. >> wise words. i want to bring donna edwards back into the conversation. does that sound reasonable to you? >> i am a creature of the house. what i can tell you is any time a president comes to the democratic caucus -- i know that i experienced that with president obama -- it is a big deal. it gives a chance for members to ask questions and to present their case to the president of the united states. it allows him to listen and then do engage even one-on-one with members. and, you know, this is not -- this meeting today is not about, you know, switching votes or changing votes. it's about reminding democrats of who they are as democrats and how they have shared values. and i think as claire has indicated, there is broad agreement around the policies. and so now you have got the policies and the priorities, and it is time to line the numbers
up so that they match the competing interests of the various groups of democrats. i do think -- i am very confident they are going to get to a deal. i agree with claire, there is nothing magic about today, tomorrow, or yesterday in terms of getting a bill done. it's about getting it done in the right way that it is going to bring on all the democrats to both the reconciliation and to the infrastructure bill. and no democrat is interested in tanking the president's agenda. >> jonathan, let me -- the white house does have that opportunity to sort of reframe the tactics and say just what donna and claire are articulating, we put this deadline on ourselves, let's take a breath. let's build consensus, let's ride these incredible -- we talk about our country as being so divided and polarized around
vaccine mandates and whatnot. on the president's domestic agenda, big s.w.a.t.s of the american public, there is no regional or gender divide. big numbers support the human infrastructure bill and the hard infrastructure bill, the pieces in it. i wonder if the white house reframing the tactic, reframing the schedule making it clear to the public that this deadline was self imposed, is that imperative of him. >> there is good natured grumbling in the building behind me, congress only acts if they have a deadline. so they were supportive of them having a deadline. that's the only way the government would do anything. it is a soft deadline, self imposed. those who we talked with suggest they want to back off that. speaker pelosi said there might be a vote today. she said that yesterday, too.
today is about trying to bridge divides, the president being there not the whip the votes but reminding everybody of the broad vision and we are going to get it done, even if it doesn't happen today or tomorrow. the white house also told me earlier this week that too much was made about the overall price tag, that it was hard to communicate what was in the bill. that people lost sight of all the good things that were in it in their estimation. that when the people are polled independently about programs they are popular. when they are fwreeted with a 3.5 trillion dollars bill they are like, whoa, that seems expensive. they want to do a better job of selling it to people rather than how much it costs. they expect that number to come down. something the president hasn't been able to do in recent weeks is travel the country and barn storm for this particular bill. he has been consumed with covid,
the withdrawal from afghanistan. he had to focus on foreign policy for a while but next week he is going to be on the road again talking about this bill and why it matters to americans to whip up support and yes we need the lawmakers to get it done. >> the old communication major in see sees that some of what bogged them down is the whole frame around the price tag elevated marchin and sinema as copresidents. as claire is saying, it is about president biden's ajen at that that he ran on, that large s.w.a.t.s of the public at this polarized hour support in pretty big numbers. is this a welcome sort of development that the president sort of out from under these things on his schedule, the unga, can sort of get back out there and exploit the high numbers for both pieces of the infrastructure bills. >> as i am hearing this question i am hearing speaker pelosi in the, about of my head who has
been saying this the last couple of weeks. house democrats have to stop talking about the price tag and talk about what is in this bill, child tax credits, free education, help for the elder. she has been trying to steer conversation that way. a democratic senator last night told me that's exactly the argument he and his colleagues are making with joe manchin. do you like this idea, this program, yes, you like this, that, my gosh, we are at $2 trillion or whatever the case might be. they are making a values-based argument internally to try to change the conferring. having the president out on the road making it public would sure be helpful as well. the speaker is a powerful figure in washington but nobody commands attention on those issues as with the president out somewhere in the country maybe in like phoenix or tucson for
example, would be marginally useful. >> can i just ask you a question garrett? what are the republicans doing? are they sitting in their offices playing yachtsy. the republicans are on the wrong side of the substance of child care, on the substance of our burning forests and flooding coastal cities. republicans are on the wrong side of the substance. the only way they get a total then is talking about spending. their numbers are detached from anything to the public but the substance is a weak underbelly for this gop. where are they? >> they have taken kind of an art of war don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake kinds of tactic here and just staying out of this debate and let the country be focused on democrats in disarray. they have been on a strategic level happy with that argument. policiwise you are exactly right what we have heard from republicans are concerns about the overall price tag, concerns about inflation, and concerns about the idea of socialism,
which is kind of a stock thing they can go back to on any of these policy issues but they are not going tit for tat with house democrats on policy elements of this bill in part because they haven't had to. that's not even the focus on the democratic argument on a broad national scale. they have largely been on the sidelines of this particular debate. >> we are lucky on days like today to draw on all of our friends and reporters, claire mccaskill, garrett haake -- thank you for starting us off. all of you wave your arms if you get anything on your phone. when the president comes out, pleases come back, garrett. when the president comes out of his meeting we will head back to capitol hill. in the meantime, adding to what the committee investigating the january 6 insurrection
unearthed. republicans are showing amnesia of it all. killing at the hands of police. it has been happening for years. this pattern of keeping data from approximate public for years is coming to light. this comes as the system in washington has collapsed. and supreme court justice samuel alito calling out his critics. an unusual move as the spotlight on the united states supreme court only grows with the fight over abortion rights is just starting to heat up. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. where t. , we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions,
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we are just trying to fill in the details now. and we are trying to figure out exactly what the connections are between the trump end raj and the trump white house and the 3%ers, the different insurrectionist groups. and who paid for the attack on the u.s. congress because you don't knock over the capitol of the united states of america for free. >> wow. still, though, all these months later, exactly what happened on january 6th is largely a complex web of interlocking mysteries. congressman jamie raskin there one of the lawmakers charged with unraveling that web as part of his work on the january 6th commission laid out two big questions we now know they are focused on. the first has to do with potential connections between the rioters and people in trump's orbit. the second, who financed the attack, what paid for it. they have subpoenaed more than a
dozen people in the last two weeks alone. the lack of answers right now is a reminder that there is much we still don't know. the fact made clear every time we learn something new, like today, about the u.s. park police never before heard police radiorecording released by the oversight group citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington show how overwhelmed law enforcement was. at one point they backed into the washington monument for their own protection. it happened before 9:30 in the morning. here's a small piece of more than eight hours of audio. >> units are backed into the monument. there is a large crowd that's following us. we are going back into the monument where an individual is under arrest. >> the prisoner is inside the base of the monument with multiple park police officers. they are completely surrounded
with protesters. and they are trying to figure out a plan how to get the arrestee down to the wagon. >> both of my swaths of horses set up here on the south side. if they exit the building and come out to us we should be able to escort them all the way. how many guys do you have in there? >> close to 20. >> that's enough. if you can form a bubble around the 10956 we can have on escort for you. what's your eta? we have people congregating around the horses. >> reverend al sharpton and donna edwards is still with us. rev, knowing how this ends, that four officers have died by suicide, that one died the day after the insurrection, that many had their bodies mutilated and their psyche's traumatized with ptsd for many months, it is
really hard to listen thou toes recordings, but everyone should have to, especially for the runs who don't want anyone to get to the bottom of what happened that day. >> everyone must listen to it because i think everyone needs to understand the gravity of what happened that day and the threat that it was to really undermining the certification of an election in a country that represents itself as the beacon of democracy. and as one that has done any number of marches, we did a huge march last year, 200,000 people, did one just four weeks ago, 50,000. their right. somebody pays for that. you have to raise money and pay for that. and those that paid for it, well, what were they paying for? and did they have any idea that they were paying for what ended up being a violent insurrection? the other part of that is they must investigate why if it was all over social media that people were coming for violence,
they were wanting to do certain things there, who in the law enforcement n the capitol police, in security, did not ramp up on some kind of way to dampen down having the basic security there? i think as time goes on, more and more questions are being asked. i have had non-violent marches there and it seemed like they were more prepared than they were prepared for people making no secret they were coming for real mischief. why weren't there people prepared, why weren't there officers that were on guard to take care of protecting the united states capitol and all the buildings and institutions around? >> you know, claire -- i'm sorry. donna, claire has talked about efforts in the homeland security committee that were stymied byron squonson to got ahead of violence and white
supremacist-backed violence. you look at that one committee, that one example, that one member was able to sort of alter the path of one committee. it seems like the federal government under donald trump's command had these same impact just at a catastrophic and larger scale, that because the people coming from invited by donald trump or rallied by him, were sort of, you know, poked and stoked by mike flynn and rudy giuliani and others -- it just had this massive effect of suppressing everyone's instincts to protect the country. and that's the best case scenario. the alternative, right, is that there was some sort of stir and some sort of winning whiting refusal to protect the capitol and the lawmakers. what are you thoughts when you heard rask ownership talking about following the money and following the thais between the rioters and the trump orbit? >> i think it is really important. we have discussed the need to go before, during, and after, to
figure out what really happened around january 6th. i mean, this reporting that we are hearing from crew, this investigative reporting of the national park police. so that means from the lincoln memorial to the washington monument, all the way across the capitol grounds, there were people who were -- who were armed, who were demonstrating that they were prepared to engage in violence. and that was ier in the day. so i do think it's important for to us know who got them there? he paid for them to be there? how was this worked, you know, the financing mechanism. with so many things in washington, follow the money, follow the money. i think that is going to lead us to people potentially in the administration. >> it doesn't --? let's listen to president biden. >> it doesn't matter whether it is in six minutes, six days or six weeks, we are going to get it done. >> why has it been so
challenging to unite the party? is the party united? >> come on, man. unite the party. 50/50, i got it. >> how big is this dill -- >> you have got to get -- >> president biden taking quick questions about party unity. you heard the president do just what donna, you and claire and garrett and everyone thought might be one of the most effective sort of tools in his tactical tool kit. and that is changing the time line here. he said it could take six hours, six days, six weeks, but we will get it done. what do you think. >> i think that was a really important message for democrats to hear. you heard from the president, they are on the same page with this agenda. and so it -- you know, get rid of the artificial time line.
let's just get it done. and that is why i expressed confidence earlier that democrats are going to get this con. >> rev, your thoughts? >> i think that it is absolutely right, and there is no one that could change the time line better than the president. and i hope they come out with a better branding or marketing strategy as they move toward getting it done. and that is to put what it is they are trying to get done as what they are putting out, not the price tag. if i am going to go buy a suit or garment, i don't want you to advertise the price. advertise the garment. >> right. >> and i love it so much that i will pay the price. i think that's what they have got to do. they have got get away from -- we were talking about $1.2 trillion or $3.5 trillion. that is what fed into manchin's talking points. talk about the child tax credit, talk about what it does to health care, talk about the family leave time, talk about what it does. let him say, i am going to block
that. it's a much more difficult task for him and sinema to fight the substance of what the american voters want when -- rather than fighting the price tag, which seems like a lot of money to everybody. >> let's listen in. >> i don't know. i don't know. you will have to ask them. >> next week? >> i am here. i am not going -- >> are you getting -- >> i didn't. i don't know. i don't know. we will do the surface transportation extension today. >> thank you. >> i would assume so. >> do you expect that vote to happen this afternoon? >> donna, we are listening to some of the reaction of the room, watching the president leave the building that he called home for so long. just talk about what we started the hour with, sort of the psychological reunited of the party around the mission, to rev's point, turning the
conversation back to the substance of both bills, which enjoy a lot of support among the public. >> i think when you have a president who is in the room with you, he can talk at the 30,000 foot level about what unites democrats, about their shared values around delivering for the american public. child care and a child care tax credit. making people who get skills that they need for the 21st century with community college education, ensuring that we are going to go able to deal with the climate crisis. i think when democrats go out there and, and speaking from the president and they talk about those things that are going to happen for the american people, you have said on your show over and over, these things are wildly popular with the american people and hearing that from a president, i think, can help to just calm the waters a little bit among democrats and get them focused on just getting it done. >> don'ta, the president is walking out with speaker pelosi. i'm riveted by the picture.
she has been a workhorse. we will try to pull the video of her -- >> in four-inch heels. >> four-inch heels. working the phones at the baseball game earlier this week, the congressional baseball game. walking the president out, still clearly briefing him. the two of them together should not be underestimated. >> exactly right, nicole. i think that nancy pelosi knows her caucus. she knows what is going to move them. she also knows that -- she is never really about strong arming people. she's about helping members get to where their values are and making sure that those values are then shared with the democrats caucus. and i think she and president biden are a great set to negotiate this both across the chambers with the house and the senate, but also among these members who on the face of it
seem like they are at odds with each other but they share values. and i think they are going to get to yes. they will. >> claire mccaskill joins us again by phone. claire, will you getting react to what happened in the room? >> i am not getting a direct react to what happened in the room. i am getting more information from the senate side that biden went into the meeting with some pretty -- i wouldn't say detailed information, but not generalized information from both manchin and sinema about what they were for, what they wanted to support, what they could vote for. and i think that part of biden's message in that room was to say, listen, i have talked to these people. they have told me they will support a, b, and c. these are the policies they believe in. this is the amount that they may have agreed to. i hope i can get more. i think we will. but we all have to hang together or we are going to hang by your
pittard. he probably would use a different word because he sometimes gets salty. so i think that he probably was there to deliver a message of unity and calming, but also to specifically bring information from those two senators who have balked at the size of the package that was being floated, not necessarily the underlying poll see. i agree with donna. they are going to get there, may not be today, may not be tomorrow, but her going the get there. >> you mentioned a number earlier in this hour. and you mentioned specifics that president joe biden walked into this meeting with. do you know what the specific number is, or what the specific policies are that sinema and manchin are for? >> i do not. and frankly, what i have been told that is anything specific in nature i just can't share at this point because i promised i wouldn't. and i want to keep my word no
matter what. but i will say that, obviously, nancy pelosi -- there was talk about her yesterday saying 2.1. we know there has been talk about 1.5. i am just telling you that i think they will get to some number between those two numbers. i am not basing that on anything specifically that i know, but i do think there is a deal to be had. and anybody who thinks $2 trillion is not a lot of money to spend doesn't understand how much $2 trillion is. >> and i -- it's a ton of money. i think to the public it's a whole lot of money as well. i want to add to our conversation my colleague capitol hill news correspondent ali vitali who is getting reaction from that meeting. what are you hearing? >> the word here seems to be time. members coming out getting the sense that the president gave a unifying message, not pressuring moderates or progressives in
either direction. instead, reminding -- those are the words that representative corey bush told me directly. i wrote this bill, this is the build back better agenda, remembering all of these democrats by and large they all agree with the basic tenettes and the policy in this, but reminding them once again that this is the democratic president's agenda for the country right now. the vibe that i have gotten from members who have been coming out has been mostly positive. progressives and moderates alike saying it was good to hear from the president today. at the same time, though, they are throwing cold water on the idea there is going to be a vote tonight. we have heard varying things from democratic leadership on whether or not the vote was actually going to happen. certainly, after this caucus meeting the sense that i get from talking to members is that we are not likely to see a vote happen tonight and that there is more work to be done. that's work that the president himself seemed to endorse in this meeting. we are also told he was the only one who talked. he didn't take questions. one congressman joked that was probably a good thing given the
variety of opinions in the room. at the same time though it seems like this was energizing to a process that had in many ways seemed to grind to a halt in the last 24 hours or so when time became a clear motivating factor here. >> ali, claire is reporting and i have heard from a white house source in the last couple of hours what kiersten sinema and joe manchin can live with is still one of the most limiting structural factors to this negotiation. i know that is sort of an unwelcome reality in the house caucus. how blunt was the president about that? claire suggested he was quite blunt. >> yeah. i think the message to the house was that you need to keep working. it is clear by the caughtdry he brought here today they are still very central to the negotiations on the hill. we saw the white house only continue over the course last 48
hours to tep up their public involvement, having key advisers like susan rice meeting with senate and house senates. also keep in mind that there is resentment that two democratic senators not in the house body is holding so much sway over these negotiations. progressives i have talked to made clear they are holding their own line. statements from bernie sanders and others have said they can continue holding the line and they have support in the senate but in terms of negotiations the only people involved from the senate side who are really making an impact are manchin and sinema. what we have seen from moderate progressives in the house is sort of a waiting game while trying to figure out where their priorities can land in this. the president coming here and speaking to this as the white house steps up their
involvement. >> claire, how much of is an effort and acceptance, accepting that -- you used the line since you have come back on the phone, it is what it is, reminding democrats that this is very, very popular, the substance of both bills, taking that time pressure off. but this sort of structural reality that dealing with manchin and sinema is the way it is right now. >> yeah. you know, we can -- you can be frustrated by it. you can be angry by it. you can, you know, throw your fists at the sky and shout. but the bottom line is, these two people who represent states that are anything but bright blue, especially joe manchin, believe that while some of the policies are great, that the amount of money was not well thought out, was too much in some instances. and they are just not going to go for a price tag that is near
3.5. i don't believe under any circumstances that going to happen. will they get above 2? i don't know. will they get above 175? i don't know. but everybody needs to like remember here this is massive change in this bill that is so good for american people along with a massive infrastructure -- we could actually have infrastructure week in this country with the democrats in charge. it would be political malpractice for them to allow this to blow up right now because the progressives are insistent on one number and a couple of moderates in the senate are insistent on another number. that's when you split the difference, make a deal, and go shout from the rooftops what you got done for working moms in this country, and their children. >> let me add to this conversation democrats congressman madeleine bean of pennsylvania precious out of the meeting with president joe biden. what did you hear?
we are still getting the congresswoman wired up. is she ready? congresswoman madeleine bean, can you hear us? >> yes, i can hear you. thank you. >> tell us what you heard from the president today? >> i will say the president was extraordinarily well received in our caucus. you never saw a more packed house, standing room only. he was extraordinarily well received. what i saw was a president on the brink of making transformational change for this country. and he needs all of us as partners. so it was a delightful visit. he spoke from the heart with great honesty about what we can do, both with the infrastructure bill, but also with what he calls the human infrastructure bill, build back better plan. as he pointed out, he wrote both of these bills. for good or for bad, these are his vision. i hope that what you will see over the next few days or
whatever the appropriate time line is we push both of these across. we need hard infrastructure, we need transformational investment in our family, in our children, in our children's education. i am excited about what we will do around children. universal college, hbcu tuition, child care credits, tax credits, what we will do for seniors with the expansion of medicare. this is a moment, and that's what the president talked about. this is a moment in history. we should not let it pass us by to make a profound change in people's lives for the better. >> i want to be really specific, congresswoman, and not ask you about visions in a way that misrepresent what they are. around the mission, i have heard from senators and your colleagues and across the spectrum and across the country regionally that around the purpose and the mission there is unity, but as we know what has spilled into public view is a
real debate around how much to spend, around the price tag, and i wonder if the president brought you a bottom line from senators manchin and sinema. >> he did not. he was pragmatic, realistic, a man of great experience who said, look, clearly, i have to be straight-up with you, it is not going to be the $3.5 trillion number that we would all like or many, many of us, like me, would like, and so he said, instead of picking a number, what i ask of you -- this was literally his call to action for us -- what i ask for you are the programmatic things that must be in the bill, and then we can do the math from there. he also talked about something that i believe in, which is, for example, the one initiative that i care deeply about is free community college. what's in the bill now is a ten-year program. it's spending over ten years for that. so, why don't we trim that back? try five years of free community college. see what an economic engine that is for our families and then we'll see if a future congress
says, no, we should shut that down. so, the way you can deal with the dollars is to trim down the number of years that any one of these programs moves forward. so, he said, don't work by the math. work by the programs. the minimum, most important programs to make transformational change here. >> so, it sounds like, with this unity around sort of mission and purpose and policy, you all have really moved to how, to the tactics, and i wonder if you can tell me other than community college, moving it from 10 to 5, what else you think should be on the table or is? >> well, i hope, really, the base programs that we've talked about are all in there and just deal with the timing of them. the other thing that the president mentioned and i keep mentioning is, remember, this number, whether it's $3.5 trillion or it's $2.5 trillion or it's $2 trillion, this is a ten-year -- this is a number of years spend, so what we can do is take a look at any one of the programs. the child tax credit, how
impactful that has been already. that will expire in a year. we want to make sure we continue that. so, continue it several more years. what that has already done is lift 40% of children out of poverty, out of hunger. these programs are literally transformational for the many, for the -- for those who are struggling the most, for those in the middle class, and as i said, if we put these in place for a certain number of years, let's take a look. i have a feeling that republicans and democrats, independents and people of no party affiliation will see how good they are for the country, how good they are for gdp, how good they are in terms of trimming down inflation and increasing jobs. these -- as i said, this is just such an extraordinary opportunity in some of the most difficult days and it's a broad-based extraordinary opportunity. it's not a political opportunity. >> the political reality, though, hangs over all of you, certainly over this president.
how much pressure do you feel to help him regain momentum after a very challenging several weeks? >> i have to admit to you, standing there with the president, i feel a confidence about this president. based on his experience, his relationships, his understanding of this institution and the understanding of where we're going. the thing that i care about more than his political credibility, because i think he has it, is what the american people need. we need to do these two very important bills for the american people. and that will redown to the president and the legacy of his presidency. >> congresswoman, when do you expect a vote? >> i don't know. we did not get that. i said i'm willing to stay all weekend. i have no clue. >> can you just tell me what the -- is the process really going into each of the policies around which there's an agreement and maybe shortening ten years of free community college to five and like the
movie, "dave," budget-smudget. is that what's happening right now? >> i assume, at a level much higher than mine, that's exactly what's happening. and also, the president was very realistic about the 50/50 margin in the senate and certainly we now are just being able to tease out numbers from senators manchin and sinema, but the president, as you pointed out, has spent tens of hours with those two senators in order to come to yes. i have a confidence that we will get to yes, as i said, not because the presidency but because the american people are at stake. >> and i appreciate your candor, and you always showcase that for our viewers in not knowing when, but would you be surprised if it were days, weeks, months? could you put it in sort of a framework, what you're expecting, days? >> i hope it's within days. literally, i talked to members of leadership to say -- it's easy for me to say.
i live only in suburban philadelphia, but i'm happy to stay put or take the train or come back, whatever it takes. i hope we'll learn later today what the calendar looks like, what the reality looks like. something we have to do is pass a continuing resolution on surface transportation. that, we will do, i hope, maybe today, or very, very soon. that will get us down the road and make sure that we don't have to furlough anybody in the department of transportation, but i do think this is an important moment. i would not like to see us go home for a couple of weeks, work in our districts for a couple of weeks, and miss out on the momentum that has been built now to make sure that both of these bills get across the finish line. that is something we are unified about. >> if anything happens in the next hour and three minutes, we'll take you up on the offer to come back. just wave your arms. we love to hear from you again. my thanks to everyone who informed our coverage this hour. congresswoman madeleine dean, thank you. claire mccaskill, thank you so
in recent years, the supreme court has started to use the shadow docket for more political and controversial decisions with results that appear on their face to be ideologically driven, but in the case of sb-8, you had a law that is clearly unconstitutional under supreme court precedent. there was no question that if the law were allowed to stand, irreparable harm would be done to countless texans who would be denied reproductive healthcare. granting an emergency injunction
to stay the law while lower court proceedings proceeded would have been an appropriate use of the shadow docket. yet, on august 30th, the court did nothing as the clock struck midnight and texas's law went into effect. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. following the supreme court's refusal to block texas's new law that all but bans abortion in the state, there's been a barrage of criticism and harsh scrutiny over the supreme court's shadow docket. now, the shadow docket describes cases where in emergency situations the court makes decisions quickly, skipping the usual exchanges of legal briefs and courtroom arguments. but over the last few years, the practice has been used more frequently and in the case of this texas abortion law, critics say the court's allowing it to continue essentially overturned roe vs. wade. one justice yesterday took offense with detractors of the shadow docket. in unusual comments from a supreme court justice, samuel
alito called out critics in congress and the media and said, the catchy and sinister term of the shadow docket has been used to portray the court as having been captured by a dangerous cabal that resorts to sneaky and improper methods, and this feeds on unprecedented efforts to intimidate the court or damage it as an independent institution. "the new york times" adds this reporting, quote, he, alito, addressed the recent decisions in unusual detail. rejecting, for instance, what he said was the false and inflammatory claim that we nullified roe vs. wade in early september by allowing a texas law that bans most abortions after six weeks to come into effect. indeed, the majority in the 5-4 ruling said it based its position on procedural grounds and did not address the constitutionality of the texas law. the effect of the ruling, however, has been to deny abortions to most women in texas. it is a situation so dire that the doj is working to temporarily halt the law. justice department lawyers
appeared in court today, arguing the law's unconstitutionality before a district court judge. it is unclear when the judge will rule on that injunction. even if the abortion ban is temporarily lifted, the legal battles don't end there, which is why the fight against texas's law and threats to abortion rights across the country continues forcefully. tomorrow, protesters will gather in support of reproductive freedoms at more than 650 marches across 50 states and washington, d.c. the fight to protect a woman's constitutional right to an abortion is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. neil katyal is here, msnbc contributor. also joining us, fatima goss graves, president and ceo of the national women's law center and our friend, msnbc legal analyst maya wily is back. it's nice to see you, my friend. i'm going to start with you. i want to deal with justice alito's attack because i take attacks on our institutions very
seriously. i think it's one of the gravest threats to this country right now and i want to read what justice elena kagan said in her dissent. in all these ways, the majority's decision is emblematic of too much of this court's shadow docket decision making, which every day becomes more unreasoned, inconsistent, and impossible to defend. so, unlike justice alito's smear against the media and congress, trying to intimidate them with a cabal, it's actually someone i imagine he holds in very high esteem, his fellow supreme court justice, who described it as unreasoned, inconsistent, and impossible to defend. >> yeah, it's great to be back, nicole, and i wish we were not back on this topic, because you're exactly right. there has not been an attack on the supreme court's right wing as a cabal. there has been a legitimate issue raised about the way in which it is using a particular
power that it has as the highest court in the land, and remember that back in february 2020, actually, justice sotomayor raised this concern in a different context. this was the public charge rule, a rule of the trump administration that said if you're legally able to be in the united states, we might still keep you out if we think you might end up on welfare benefits. but the bottom line is it was a use of this shadow docket in a way that she said indicated some concerns about not allowing the appellate process to play out and putting too much of the weight of the administration of the federal government on the scales of justice. and that's a legitimate conversation to have. and so to have the supreme court justice literally mimicking what sound like political talking points of a particular group of thinkers actually undermines the
real conversation about how we ensure that we have justice in this country, particularly in a case where we saw a court just say, even though there's no reason to remove this stay on this case, given its implications for constitutional rights, we're going to do just that. this is a legitimate conversation we have to be able to have without being attacked for it. >> maya, let me just follow up with you because as you're talking, i have to pull this quote up again. alito said this. quote, the catchy and sinister term of the shadow docket has been used to portray the court as having been captured by a dangerous cabal. this is the supreme court justice who i think is doing his own best to damage the idea of the court as above the fray. our friend, barbara mcquaid, who we've both spent a lot of time on television with, it is impossible to get barbara to say anything political or catchy or
sinister said this. it's a good reminder why courts should speak only through their orders. just alito's public remarks attacking supreme court critics is not an effective way of showing the court is above the political fray. what do you think is going on? do you think alito's watching too much cable? >> i think alito was triggered. and triggered for reasons. the data itself makes it clear that what is essentially happened is we have had a court that for the first time in this country is a right-wing activist court. i'm just calling it what it is. that's without judgment to what your beliefs are about its viewpoints. but donald trump himself said he was going to construct a supreme court that was going to overturn roe v. wade. and that was a campaign commitment of his. alito obviously was not one of his appointees, but there's no question that right now, what's happening in congress is saying, wait, wait, wait. now we're actually seeing
something that has been enshrined in the laws of the united states as a constitutional right by the supreme court. and yet we're not seeing a supreme court that is protecting the appellate process. and one other point to make about alito's comment that's so important is, one of the people who used the shadow docket term was a former clerk of chief justice roberts who himself is a republican appointee. is he also to be attacked by justice alito as a left-winger who's simply doing a political attack on the court? i don't think so. >> well, and i certainly don't think that justice kagan is either. i want to turn to the substance of the texas near total ban on abortion. and i want to ask you, neal katyal, about what happened in court today. it is still opaque to me exactly what was argued and what happens next. can you take us through that? >> yeah, absolutely.
before i do any of that, i want to say there's a general issue about the shadow docket and whether or not they're rushing emergency decisions without analysis, and then there's a specific issue of the use of the shadow docket with respect to these abortion decisions, and you heard justice alito saying, well, this is just procedural, and it didn't, you know, overrule roe vs. wade. and i think that really cuts the bologna way too thin because the fact is, as a result of the supreme court's use of the shadow docket in the abortion cases, abortion is now fundamentally restricted in texas and potentially any other state in a way it never has in our lifetime. so that is, roe set a 24, 25-week threshold for abortion restrictions. texas sets a six-week one and the law has now gone into effect. and so what happened today was the justice department went into court and said, you know, stop this law from coming into effect and texas had this fake trick, this vigilante provision which
the supreme court fell for in its shadow docket. you know, they said, well, the state's not actually enforcing the law. private citizens are. so, we got to wait for a private citizen to enforce the law. even though we all knew the results of what the supreme court decision would be there, which is a chilling effect on abortions. they've, you know, almost stopped in the state of texas because nobody wants to take that kind of legal risk. so, today, the justice department came in and said, they're kind of gap fillers and they said, yo, wait a minute, we can enforce the law, and basically, i mean, texas was trying to dodge the legal challenge here and the justice department just turned around and said, hey, that's exactly why we get to step in and come into federal court, because the law obstructs people from vindicating their own rights. it's kind of like trying to hide from the police by running straight into a precinct. so, that's what happened today. >> and then what is the next step, neal? when do we expect to hear any sort of decision and then what happens next to the law? >> yeah, so, i think the
argument did not go well for texas today. if i'm having to read the tea leaves, i would think that the law, the texas law, will be enjoined, which means it will be temporarily stopped and then it will go to the court of appeals for the fifth circuit and we'll see what they do, and then it will go to the supreme court, and it's going to go to the supreme court again on a rushed basis, perhaps again the shadow docket, and at a really unusual time. justice kavanaugh just tested positive for covid. the justices were all meeting in a conference room earlier this week to decide what cases they're going to hear on monday. they're returning to live court for the first time in 18 months. i'm arguing next week. i don't know whether i'm going to argue in-person or not as a result of this so this is a really weird time at the supreme court, and then, of course, you've got all of this hoopla around public statements of the justices that you and maya were talking about earlier. >> not the specificity of what he said, but how outside the
norm is it for anyone on the high court to make comments about the congressional and media moment? >> yeah, it's definitely unusual. it's happened. and i would say, you know, it hasn't always happened on one side. i think justice ginsburg made some comments i felt like were unfortunate. she was the most amazing justice but i think one of the reticence of the court, the thing that barbara mcquaid was talking about earlier, generally serves the court well so i think for people like me who kind of our bread and butter is the supreme court, we're watching this with some concern. >> fatima, i want to come back to, again, the texas near-total ban on abortions, and i always like to remind people where the american people are on this issue. 54% of all americans think abortion should be legal all or most of the time. just 34% think it should be
illegal with exceptions like for rape or incest, and only 8% of the american people believe in what texas has done to make abortion illegal without exceptions, albeit after six weeks, which in texas, 85% of abortions in texas happen after that six weeks of gestation, which is usually about four weeks. i wonder if you can speak to what has been awoken in the country. there are women's marches all over, including in d.c. and clearly, i'll use maya's word for it, a very triggered supreme court justice. >> yeah, the texas law has ignited people in this country. it's awakened people to the fact that our ability to control our own bodies, to determine our lives and our futures, that it is not what we thought it was. and tomorrow, there will be actions all over the country where people are coming together.
they will be rallying and marching and gathering in every state in this country and over 650 events and this is really just the beginning, because it's day 31 of abortion effectively being banned in texas, but the supreme court is also hearing arguments in the mississippi 15-week abortion ban case on december 1st. and it all feels perilous. we are at a new phase in the conversation and the fight to protect and expand abortion access in this country. >> fatima, michelle goldberg writes in "the new york times," i think, the question that keeps a lot of people up at night. she asks this. are we too burned out to defend roe vs. wade? what's happening in texas, not just a broad abortion ban but the demented system of enforcing it may be almost inconceivably dystopian, but after the
unceasing emergencies of the last few years, maintaining an appropriate level of outrage has become a challenge. part of the purpose of the protests saturday is not just to register anger with the supreme court has allowed to happen in texas but to get ready for what's on the way. we're talking about a march this weekend and that's important but the real work is going to come quietly and probably out of view for most people. we're looking to build capacity and momentum and i think that's really important in the fight to come. that's rachel o'leary carmona. talk about what michelle's writing about, the fight that maybe won't be broadcast on the news tomorrow. >> well, even at the marches, they are centering people who have had abortions. they're centering providers. people who are on the ground right now without the access. you know, the supreme court basically banned abortion for 1 in 10 people, women of reproductive age in this
country. and i don't know that we fully understand the reality of that, and so hearing those stories is going to be important. hearing what this is like for people who are not able to scrape together the funds to leave the state of texas, hearing people talk about what it was like before roe vs. wade, that is what we're going to be lifting in this time to really ground us. for the people who are just now paying attention and just now thinking about and learning what is at stake, we have a bit of a process to go before we're awakened to the reality that we are in the fight of our lives here. >> you know, maya, you are sort of ear to the ground. i mean, you understand what some voters minds, having just run yourself. i wonder if you think even since your mayoral run, this has changed in terms of a front burner issue. i mean, most young women, most young men and women who vote don't have the protection of reproductive freedoms front of
mind. they don't vote in as high numbers as i wish they did but they have climate change. they have the economy. they have other things front of mind. i wonder if you think this changes that and sort of awakens younger voters. >> you know, i think younger voters have been very active and actually issues of things like having the power to make decisions over your own body have been very important for this generation, particularly as we start to talk about gender identity, transgender, the ability to understand gender versus sexual -- what your sex was at birth. i mean, these are all very, very present issues for this generation, and i actually felt it when i ran, even though i was running for mayor of new york city, which is a very democratic city, which supports the -- a woman's right to choose, a person's right to make choices about they're own generate identities and yet i was being asked about my position on
exactly this issue despite that and even in new york city, we've had issues with clinics, folks making it very hard, blocking and protesting people who are entering a planned parenthood clinic in order to get healthcare. and that's what we're talking about here. we're talking about healthcare and everybody's right to make decisions about their own bodies. so i do think what we're seeing is going to continue to play out as a major issue in this country and for voters, including young voters. i would just say they have had a very broad approach to what it is to have bodily integrity and even how to identify and find their own body. that's always been an issue for young people. >> you don't need to be a former candidate or even a former political operative to read a poll. 8% think what they did in texas is a good idea. neal katyal, fatima, maya, thank
you so much for starting us off. when we come back, the rise in political violence in this country tragically shows no sign of letting up and there's new reporting showing that one far-right militia that took part in the capitol riot saw a surge in membership after the january 6th insurrection. how to combat the growing extremist threat is next. plus new developments in the intelligence community as it grapples with havana syndrome, what lawmakers doing this week to crack the case. and more proof that vaccine mandates are working. call it what it is. a success story. for the biden administration. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no.' everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 14 day, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to... and...when he wants to. so ray...can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c.
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the threat of far-right domestic terrorism not only persists all these months after the attack on the u.s. capitol, according to some metrics, at least, the threat might be growing. the latest reporting from "the guardian," quote, hacked materials from the website of the right-wing militia group, the oath keepers, show that hundreds of people either joined or renewed their membership after many of the groups' members participated in the attacks on the capitol on january 6th. they included people who joined under their military ranks, including combat veterans, retired service people, at least one serving national guardsmen, several members of the clergy and others involved in security contracting in the firearms industry. scary stuff. joining our conversation, christopher goldsmith, former u.s. army sergeant, monitor domestic extremism and national security issues and betsy woodruff swan is back. chris, take me through what you
see. i know you know where to look. you have an ear to the ground in the way that i don't. tell me what you're seeing. >> sure. so, we've seen the same thing that we've seen over the last few years, and that's that every failed coup is just practice. what's, i think, most disturbing to people now is that it's become out in the public but the oath keepers are an organization that's primarily by and for not just military service members, veterans, but also police. these are people who have a warped sense of patriotism, who believe that fighting against the government, against their fellow americans, is somehow patriotic. and what's most disappointing to me is to see people using dot gov and dot mil email addresses to sign up to be one of these members of an unlawful militia.
>> chris, it seems all the scrutiny around some of the specific events, like the justice for j-6, had the effect of diminishing enthusiasm and turnout but it would seem that the what of the january 6th insurrection had the opposite effect on attracting members to the oath keepers, and i wonder if you can sort of explain that. >> the same way that no one ever heard of the proud boys until former president trump uttered it from the stage. this is something that extremism trackers like myself and my colleagues have known about for years, and unfortunately, the light of day, if it's not imposing a cost on these people, it ends up just being a recruiting bonanza for them. thankfully, on your show, you're putting them in the correct light. you're showing them as losers who are disconnected from reality, and that doesn't encourage recruitment. but over on fox news, you know, january 6th is no big deal. and that is the most popular
channel on all military bases across the world right now, because they use nielsen ratings. they say, oh, well, fox news is popular, so we have to show it to the troops, and it creates this feedback loop. it's the only reason why you've got a bunch of young people who are living in the same twisted world as a bunch of, you know, typically retirees watching fox news who believe everything that they see. that's why right now we've got a bunch of folks in the military who are ready to get kicked out because they're refusing a vaccine. you get 17 vaccines in order to deploy. no one's complained about those. i mean, yeah, okay, we've complained, but we're not losing our careers over them. but now this covid vaccine, fox news has made evil, so they're, you know, basically convincing a bunch of young folks to ruin their careers in ways that will follow them for the rest of their lives in terms of a denial of veterans benefits. >> you know, i mean, betsy,
chris has laid out sort of the two pillars of this challenge for law enforcement, still trying to protect the homeland. one is the legitimatization by the ex-president, calling out the proud boys, and then the sort of permission structure, if that's the right word, that is afforded to them on their chosen media. how does law enforcement navigate that? >> it's a pressing question for federal and state and local law enforcement agencies, and then the challenge of dealing with the shifting space of domestic terrorism becomes even slightly more complicated because so many of these conversations that domestic terrorists and domestic extremists are engaged in are now moving to encrypted platforms and to low-profile, little-known social media outlets as a result of all the mainstream outlets doing the responsible thing and purging people who are trying to organize domestic terror attacks, so right now, what i see in the law enforcement space are people responsible for
monitoring these threats kind of scrambling and kind of playing catch-up just to try to stay on top of them. and of course, what makes the threat even worse is the fact that many people on the conservative end of the political spectrum, including members of congress, are actively trying to whitewash what happened on january 6th. if you're someone who has a penchant toward extremism and you hear first the oath keepers were there on january 6th and you hear, second, january 6th wasn't that bad, it was just a tour through the capitol building by a bunch of patriots, and you put those two that, you know, those two arguments or claims next to each other, then you might not recognize that the oath keepers are actually an organization that promotes people going against what the government says they should do. so, it's not surprising to see that sanitation or efforts to sanitize what happened on january 6th can have a downstream effect of potentially sanitizing these noxious groups that participated in the
insurrection. >> and betsy, what is the sort of worst case scenario in a post-insurrection world that law enforcement worries about? i mean, they already tried to overthrow a seat of government and hang mike pence. what is sort of -- what are they trying to disrupt and prevent from happening now? >> the big concern are the attacks that have been happening for years, namely, violent attacks, particularly attacks by these far-right extremists on law enforcement officials. there's been a huge problem for a long time. i talked to one law enforcement official who said that even though in the, you know, conservative, quote, unquote, allegedly pro-police space, people like to complain about far-left groups, the actual biggest lethal threat to law enforcement are from these far-right and white supremacist extremists. the other thing that people in the national security and law enforcement space are having brought to their attention this week are all the violent threats on school boards around the country. we've seen a national association representing school board officials saying they need
help from dhs, fbi, the whole of government law enforcement space because of all the violence and threats and intimidation that their members are facing. similar tactics to what happened on january 6th that now are being turned against school boards nationwide in a trend that's really disturbing and sinister. >> chris, what do you see that scares you the most? >> that's exactly it. the school boards. right now, everyone from the proud boys to the oath keepers to qanon influencers are trying to encourage their members, their followers, their maniacs to show up at school board hearings and intimidate members so that those people resign. that creates vacancies so they can run for elections and win. you know, everyone thought, oh, when this arizona fraudit goes bad, they'll calm down. well, no. you know, they've deluded themselves now that arizona is a
part of the past. guys like disgraced former general michael flynn are telling his qanon followers, you need to run for office so that you can tell our kids that black lives matter is a terrorist group and, you know, that vaccines are the mark of the devil or something like that. and these are things that have effects on real levels, and you know, what betsy is talking about right now is, you know, not just a spontaneous thing. it's completely organized. and it's not just organized by extremist groups. it's organized by some of the most well-moneyed and flashy pacs like turning point usa, who is maintaining a website where the basic doxxing members of boards on the local level to intimidate them, to get them off so that they can fill it with maniacs. >> it's unbelievable. we will continue to watch this space with your help. chris goldsmith, betsy woodruff
swan, thank you for spending time with us. with cases on the rise and the diplomats worried about working overseas, lawmakers stepping up efforts to solve the mystery of the havana syndrome. that new reporting is next. have that new reporting is next powe, we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. wealth is your first big investment. worth is a partner to help share the load. wealth is saving a little extra. worth is knowing it's never too late to start - or too early. ♪ ♪
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world. just yesterday, the house intelligence committee approved a bipartisan proposal to provide additional resources to help find the cause and further look into the cia's handling of the illness which seems to be occurring with more frequency. earlier this week, we learned of yet another instance, this time in serbia. according to the "wall street journal," a u.s. intelligence officer was evacuated after suffering serious injuries consistent with the symptoms of the havana syndrome. joining us now is "new york times" national security reporter julian barnes. you have a great story on this as well and i wonder, are they calling it an illness or are they calling them attacks? >> they haven't used the word "attacks" yet. you know, bill burns did in his early on, say attacks, but officially, they're just incidents. that's because they haven't solved it yet. they don't know what the cause is officially. now, i think a lot of officials believe this is something
perpetrated by adversarial intelligence service like russia, but the official conclusion hasn't been made yet >> let me read from your new reporting about what's going to happen with this sort of new focus by -- you write that the measure would overhaul the cia's office of medical services and create a voluntary system where cia officers assigned overseas could first receive brain scans and labwork that would help doctors determine the extent of their injury should they later exhibit symptoms consistent with havana syndrome or report being victims of a health episode. the intelligence committee is doing its own investigation and the bill approved on thursday mandates an inspector general review of the performance of the cia's medical division and sets up an outside advisory board to examine its work. i mean, what's being described is sort of baseline medical lab work. are there questions about the veracity of the symptoms and the syndrome? >> i think less questions now
about the veracity. that was an issue a couple years ago when a lot of victims were being doubted. the current leadership of the cia doesn't doubt the victims, knows something happened, says something happened. the issue here, though, is treating it and diagnosing what the exact cause is has been a little bit difficult because people who are injured don't have a previous brain scan. there's nothing to compare it to. so, if everybody gets scanned before they go overseas, and if they are hit, then doctors may have a better chance of determining exactly what was the weapon or device used against them, exactly what are the extent of injuries caused in this instance here. so that is what we're trying to do, trying to improve investigations and improve treatment, critically. >> some of the victims, at least, believe they've been
attacked. what is the thinking about how to respond if it is an adversary and these are attacks? >> yeah, that's a very important question because if these are attacks, the administration is going to have to respond and you know, this is not the kind of thing where you can just put a demar sh on russia if that's who it's determined to be. you know, diplomatic warnings won't be sufficient when we have 200 injured americans. this is -- but at the same time, you don't want to necessarily escalate and make the situation worse. so, it is a very difficult policy question of what the responses should be. should the administration determine it is an adversarial country and just put sanctions down? that's going to seem a little inadequate to some victims, i would believe.
>> julian barnes, i was really happy to see your reporting on this. we'll continue to call on you. it's a really important thing, not just for the victims but for the fear now that anyone -- not just dispatched overseas but traveling. i know that cia director traveled, someone on his staff suffered, believes they were targeted. so, thank you so much for joining us to talk about your new reporting. when we come back, new evidence underscoring what is a clear victory in the fight against covid. vaccine mandates, they work very well. that's next. 's next.
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ooh! i want that. as of this morning, 90% of our department of education employees are vaccinated, at least one dose. 93% of our teachers, 98% of our principals. the bottom line is this mandate has worked. i would urge every mayor in america, do it now. get those vaccine mandates in place ahead of the cold weather when things are going to get tougher. >> the new york city mayor, bill de blasio, this morning on the potentially life-saving impact of the city's vaccine mandate for all teachers and school staff starts monday. just this hour, supreme court justice sotomayor denied a request from new york city teachers to block that mandate. it comes as california governor newsom is taking it one step further, mandating all school children in the state must be vaccinated or enrolled in remote
schooling once vaccines for their age group are fully approved. the evidence that vaccine mandates work in all areas of the country is only mounting. a mandate for all new york state hospital workers went into effect monday. the rate of full vaccination went from 84% to 87% just a few days before that. tyson foods mandating vaccines for all 120,000 employees starting november 1st says 91% of their employees are now fully vaccinated. that is up from 50% since the announcement was made in august. and united airlines is now beginning to terminate unvaccinated employees. they say 99% of their u.s. workforce of 67,000 people has been vaccinated. that's up from 90% two weeks ago. let's bring into our conversation, aaron blake, "washington post" senior political reporter and msnbc medical contributor dr. bhadelia, the director of boston university's center for emerging infectious diseases policy and research.
doctor, at some level, it's sad that you had to force people to do this. i was one of these people constantly refreshing my phone when i became eligible to get the vaccine. but at another level, whatever it takes. and at the end of the day, these people are now protected. >> that's right. and in many of these settings, these are folks that are around other folks, where there's chirp children, whether it's congregate segregates like tyson, i think they're creating -- these mandates are creating safe spaces not just for employees but the rest of us because listening to that 99% united employees being vaccinated makes me want to fly united, right? it's just creating those safe spaces, actually makes all of us be able to get back to normalcy, and mandates have a history. we've done this with other infectious diseases where we've required them in schools. we've required them in hospitals. and we have seen that uptake and
that's been a path that has allowed us to get to population immunity with other infectious diseases as well. >> aaron blake, this is the topic of what you write today. when such vaccine mandates were considered and announced, and even up through today, after president biden announced a vaccine or testing mandate for large employers, much of the pushback from the anti-mandate crowd has been argument these measures would harden opposition to vaccines, it might make people resent being forced to do something they don't want to do or hadn't decided to do yet, but the evidence also increasingly suggests that it spurs the vast majority of the resistant ultimately to comply, hard feelings or not. that's something you wrote when the president made the announcement. to mandate or to have the mandate for all companies larger than 100 employees. it felt like a gamble at the time. it is one of the quickest sort of political and public health payouts of the biden presidency so far. >> yeah, and i think that what you read out there cited the
republican opposition to this. i think in many ways, republicans have struggled to think about how to talk about this vaccine or testing mandate, given all the other vaccines that we do mandate for schools and in other contexts. once this became fully authorized, it became, well, if you support those other vaccine mandates or at least you're not questioning those, why wouldn't you support this one? and so the one thing that they generally landed upon or at least was a little bit more consistent between republicans when it came to their reasons for resisting this vaccine or testing mandate, was this idea that it would, in fact, harden the opposition. what we see from these numbers, particularly as we hit closer to the deadlines here, some of the numbers you read out are after the deadline. some of them are approaching deadlines. once you get closer to that deadline, you see a significant amount of compliance. there was one hospital system that had about 1% of its workforce that got suspended last week because they hadn't actually gotten the vaccine, but
once they were suspended, they had five days to comply. we had more than half of them ultimately get vaccinated, and so i think what it proves is that we had a large portion of the country, the people who were not getting vaccinated, many of them said that this was something that they weren't going to do, period. very few of them said it was something that they would only do if they were required. well, these mandates generally show that universe of people is much larger than they let on to pollsters, we're getting, generally speaking, high 90% compliance which is much higher than those polls suggested it would be pre-mandate. >> dr. bhadelia, mayor de blasio talks about urging mandates to be put in place ahead of the winter season. where are we in the pandemic? i look at the case number every day. it looks like we're coming off the delta peak but just take me through where you think we are and where we're heading. >> yeah, we're coming off the
cases peak, the deaths remain high because they usually lag, and the concern is that particularly in areas that are still undervaccinated, less than 50% adult vaccination, you might have -- you have colder weather coming up. you have holiday travel coming up. you know, which, traditionally, we've seen seen over the last 18 months can accentuate the number of cases. not only that, but if you have a really rough flu season, which, again we are afraid of because we haven't seen as much flu activity last year, you might have hospitalizations from flu and have hospitalizations from covid, which may overwhelm at least smaller, you know, ruler communities or areas that are being -- are just recovering from this delta peak as well. so the timing of the mandates was important, not just because of getting everybody to the other side of the pandemic but because it is right before the potential new crop of cases that may pop up because of those factors. >> aaron blake, take a step back at the conversations we have day in and day out about the
ex-president not believing he actually lost, and it steals from the fact that he lost massively. i mean his loss in the popular vote is -- he lost big time, and one of the factors was a colossal failure on covid. what do you think fuels republicans sort of going his path, denying its severity, refusing to model or advocate or mandate life saving public health measures? why? >> i think it owes to a lot of the things that we saw throughout the trump era when it comes to republicans lining up with him on things that aren't necessarily popular. the coronavirus mandates, vaccine mandates are generally popular when you talk about context like school, health professionals, things like that. it is that there is a very passionate portion of the republican party base that feels very strongly about these things and that is willing to punish people who don't at least kind of stay out of things or toe the
line. i think we saw that a while back when the president was holding a rally and he -- the former president was holding a rally and he said something to the effect of, i recommend the vaccine. he said, one of the few times he said that he thinks people should get the vaccine and there was actually some boos in the crowd. i think that was a case in point when it comes to why republicans are actually kind of, you know, resisting these mandates but also not being more forceful about the vaccines, is because they know that there is this -- maybe a small portion of the country, but a significant portion of the republican party base, a very active portion that is going to create problems for them. that creates a problem for them more broadly speaking though because, as i mentioned, this is a vaccine mandate. vaccines in general are something that the vast majority of the population are taking right now, and so to the extent you become defined as a party by resisting vaccines or even vaccine mandates, you are not playing with an issue that is majority issue at that point.
>> yeah, not even starting there. aaron blake, dr. nahid bhadelia, thank you for spending time with us today. a quick break for us. we will be right back. i love to be outdoors. i have jaybirds that come when i call. i know how important it is to feed your body good nutrition. i heard about prevagen and i heard about the research behind it. taking prevagen, i have noticed that i can think clearly. my memory is better. i can say that prevagen is one of the most outstanding supplements i've ever taken. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. my plaque psoriasis... ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. my psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen... painful. emerge tremfyant™. with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. tremfya® is the only medication of its kind
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he has engaged in volunteer and advocacy work, he wrote several books, he taught sunday school. president carter is apparently celebrating privately today, but the carter center is encouraging people to sign an online birthday card. it has been a momentous year for the carters who celebrated their 71st wedding anniversary in july. in april they hosted dr. jill biden and president biden at their home in georgia. we wish you a happy birthday. we will be right back. y birthday we will be right back. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change.
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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari mel billy ray starts now. hi, ari. happy friday. >> happy friday. thank you so much, nicolle. we are jumping into the big story on "the beat." house liberals winning their tactical standoff last night. today president biden went to the scene of the pushback, going to congress to huddle with house democrats in private. on one side of