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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  September 30, 2021 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT

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but what have you been doing for the last two hours? ...delegating? oh, good one. move your xfinity services without breaking a sweat. xfinity makes moving easy. go online to transfer your services in about a minute. we are still waiting to see get started today. what is going to happen on capitol hill tonight. nancy pelosi has just sent a dear democratic colleague letter. i won't read the whole thing, but she does say the substance of it is, the work is being done, discussions continue, with the house senate and to read meet a framework and meeting to build back better reconciliation, been many thanks to the participation in patients. the bipartisan infrastructure bill has already had hit roll past. and this debate has concluded all of this momentum brings us closer to shaping the reconciliation bill in a manner
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that will pass the house and the senate. she concludes with, thank you all with your constant and informative, and occasionally humorous message. and always, for your leader. for the people. discussions continue, i think is the money quote there. but we are still waiting to see what is going to happen tonight. that is going to do it tonight for us tonight, we will see you again some other time, now it's time for the last world with lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening rachel i'm just flipping through a script i wrote about an hour ago, to see if i want to use any of the. in this few minutes. so the pelosi letter is interesting because it doesn't say anything as these letters normally do, and so here is what we are going to do, and you can go home now and sleep in a real bed, or you can fall asleep in your office, and come back at 2 am. so luckily we have the house budget committee john yarmouth, and he knows as much as any general does what is going to happen as anyone will. we did just see a comment from
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joe manchin saying that he does not see a deal tonight. so this may be something that we will know about tomorrow. >> with that being said nobody is waiting on him to do something right? nobody is expecting that joe manchin will try and bring this to a conclusion. >> no but it is way he actually is. so the conclusion that you will get two must include joe manchin and senator sinema, no one is going to say okay we have them all done and it doesn't include them. because that is the roadblock as everybody know. and actually senator manchin has been very open about where he is and what he is trying to accomplish. senator sinema is an absolute silence, and in certain amount content for the amount of accountability that she's doing here. so it seems to be in a way where we can sort of recognize as getting somewhere. >> none of this is operated
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language but, the power of nancy pelosi's their colleagues and acquisition says. discussions continue with the house senate and white house to reach a by carroll, framework agreement. to build back better through a reconciliation bill. lovable of, all this moment brings us closer to shaping the reconciliation bill in a manner that will pass both the house in the senate. she wants a bike or a moral framework agreement. >> yes that means 50 senators a greeting to it, not 49. 50. so this is the night where they are going to try to make it happen. and the longer you keep them in, the more pressure builds. so that is why she doesn't say in there that you can all go home. she needs this pressure. because she is trying to convince people in the house at the same time that the stuff going on in the senate. and so, here is the striking thing about it, joe manchin
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made very clear today that the memo came out that he signed with chuck schumer. and chuck schumer is the cutest little signature i seen. he is going to try to dissuade joe for all of and most of the stuff he says in this thing, from back in july. so he has made very clear, that he's made 1.5 trillion, he is in favor of most of the things that are in the bill at a smaller scale. and so 1.5 trillion is being received as some kind of loss for democrats. when it is a huge piece of legislation. it is not 3.5, and it's not the sixth that bernie sanders originally was hoping for but, in this legislative arena, 1.5 trillion is the largest amount ever contemplating or written into law. not contemplated because they've contemplated more, but written into law.
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by anyone ever. so the democratic's have managed to have the win on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. they've got a win on this other one. it is just a question of how many points in the win, how big is the win, is a big? >> let it also be noted that even on his own terms, speaking within his own joe manchin verse, he has never said that his one and a half trillion dollar idea about what this should be, is meaningfully mapped to the things that he says he wants in it. he just likes the sound of that number. even though a lot of the things he says he wants, in the media and says his priority for him, that's up to a number that is larger than 1.5 trillion. he has also said that that is his bottom line. that is his idea. that is is displaced from which he starts negotiating. so if he starts at 1.5, and the rest of the democrats are 3.5 one might guess that that one man versus everyone in the party, might negotiate and they
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will end up sort of to what everybody else wants. if in fact he is negotiating in good faith, and not just enjoying the suntans that he is getting from the tv. lights >> and yes this is a document unlike anything i've ever seen. i've never seen this kind of agreement, not only put in, sorry i should've said this, this kind of proposal, the exchange raining. but signing? it i've never seen a chairman china one of these with a member. like okay this is your position. it is like chuck schumer is giving him a receipt, saying that i got it, i understand that this is what you want, i'm going to try and talk you out of. it but the things that he is in favor of, increasingly talking about income tax rate, getting rid of the carried interest provision in the tax code that allows rich investment bankers tunnel have regular income, and regular income taxes, increasing the corporate tax rate. he said today, for consumption in west virginia of course,
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that i am not a liberal. and i think that that is taken for granted in washington. but that is a liberal tax bill. that he is in favor of in this memo, and so the idea that joe manchin is not being serious from his perspective about how to do this, i think is now clear that he is. that you might not like what he wants, and bernie sanders heats what he wants, but i don't think bernie sanders would say joe manchin has been irresponsible in his approach to this, he hasn't been open enough. i think the reason why have a docket cast on this is because i don't think the words that he is talking about, and the numbers that he is talking about have ever met. i think it is in the numerous proposal. and therefore it is cynical and false. to say that here is my propose and here's the number, when the number actually is in constituted of his ideas. >> but see when i was working in the finance committee, i
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actually like these kind of proposals, because if you say that i want this, this, and this and i want this low spending number, that for me was great. i would just concentrate on so you want this, this, this and, this and it's kind of like selling a house. and you kind of go well, well this is how much it costs. so i can take encouragement from those things that you see as cynical. >> so you are seeing the sausage being made before, and i'm seeing the sausage and saying oh that's terrible. >> and i am not saying that it's not cynical, what i'm saying is is that it looks flexible to me. i just look for flexibility when they are saying these things. and the things that make it really difficult is when someone says, i am absolutely opposed to x. and there is no room. there's like no room in at all, an absolute no. then you are not going to be able to have that provision if you need that vote from that person. >> the question is whether or not joe mention is absolutely
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opposed to the democratic's passing the president biden's package, now is it about the definition of the budget, or is he actually opposed to them passing other reconciliation bills that include most of the presidents economic priorities? >> he actually said today, that he was. meaning that he started off saying i didn't think we needed this at all. zero. and so from the perspective of thinking that we needed zero. and that all we need was the bipartisan infrastructure bill, he sat down with some schumer, and said that i think we need zero but this is what i am willing to do if you guys actually do it this way, i will go from zero to 1.5. so he would argue that i went from zero to 1.5, bernie sanders saying that i went from six to 3.5. and so here we are tonight. >> i will say at some point you and i are going to sell each
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other a [inaudible] , to see who comes up with a better deal. we're going to each sell a car, and we're going to see who can sell each other up. and we're going to see who end up with a better. deal >> do you really want that sound system in the car? okay? yeah sure? >> thank you lawrence. >> well we are starting off tonight, we are drinking the script, we are starting off with congressman john yarmuth, he is the chair of the house budget committee. this is where it all began. he is the author of the 3.5 trillion dollar framework of the house budget resolution. that the house and the senate are now trying to reconcile in what the then call a reconciliation bill. chairman of the house budget committee, john yarmuth, thank you very very much for joining us tonight. we always feel lucky to get you. but as the night were on, we felt luckier and luckier. and then we get this mysterious letter from the speaker that doesn't say whether you can go
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home tonight or not. can you tell us -- let's just start with this, when are you going home tonight? >> i'm not going home at all. but i just want to say that i hope that the last eight or nine minutes of you and rachel talking are more analyzed because that was one of the most incredible discussions, of sausage making that i've ever heard. and so relevant to the night. nobody knows where we are. the speakers are trying to honor her commitment to having a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. i plan to vote for that bill if we plan to vote on it. but right now i was just involved in a call of the progressive caucus and if
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anything, there was increase result among the progressive caucus members to oppose the infrastructure bill. i am not in that position, i think it is in a good bill, i'm going to vote for it if it comes forward. but this is bizarre if there ever were one. >> what is for you as you sit here tonight, what is the most mysterious element of what you are facing tonight. if you could get one question answered, whether it be from the senator or from anyone in this, what would that question be? . >> the question would be why does anyone think that the top line member is significant in any way? and what we are talking about is an analysis by the president of the united states, by most members of the democratic caucus. in both the house and the
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senate. in what the federal government needs to do to support the american people at this point in history. it's a pivotal point that we have made conscious facing it, that the biden administration is basically proposed not line up things that we can do to make sure that a generation from now, two generations from now, that we have a country and society that most of us would aspire to. and what we are seeing now, unfortunately, is a debate about a top line number. which is not even in that number. and something that we should not focus on. we should focus on what's this bipartisan, and then the build back better act positions will do in terms of providing childcare, and childhood education, and senior care, and climate change policy, and paid
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and family and medical leave. all these things which are essential to guaranteeing a better future for all of us. and that is my frustration. with all of this obsession with the top line number, when, by the way, the united states government has the capacity to spend whatever we need to spend as long as it is a smart investment with the people in our economy. and unfortunately we are dealing with numbers that really don't make any difference. we are talking about 1.5 trillion, 3.5 trillion, six trillion, we are talking about with this that relate to. so over the next ten years the gop of the country is going to be something like close to 300 trillion dollars. so we are talking about 1%, a little over 1%. let's focus on what we are trying to do, and how we are
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trying to improve a society. >> is this negotiation, at this point, basically virtually all the democrats in the house, the 48 democrats in the senate, and one democratic president, and one democratic vice president, all negotiating in across the table from two democratic senators, which are sinema and manchin? well of course that's right >> you were in the senate, you understand that the rules of the senate which are bizarre but they are what they are. and that is what we are doing. and the fact that one or two members of the senate could basically determine, or hold hostage, the policies that the country can hold are pretty astounding. but we can talk about the
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philosophical issues of where we are with the center procedure and so forth. and the filibuster and those type of things. but we need -- there are things that we need to do there are challenges that we need to meet, only the federal government can deal with many of these problems we are trying desperately to do that. and to its credit the president of the united states has taken the position, there is no president that i could remember that has taken, what do we do for the american people? once we answer those questions. how do we resource? that and that is a wonderful change in mindset that we have not seen in a long time. before you go, i just want to imagine a conversation, i'm sure you've had this conversation, with possibly a junior member of your committee. or a freshman member of the house, who's trying to decide on, whose sympathies are very
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strong with the progressive caucus, maybe even a member of the progressive caucus, and is thinking about this possible vote, on the senate bipartisan bill. you have said that you will vote for, it's even though, it breaks that pledge that these would be voted altogether, something you considered important. you are making a compromise of your own, and being willing to vote for that bill. what would you say to that new member who's asking you, for advice on that vote? >> i'm humble enough to not tell people how to advise, or advise people. but i would say to them, look, we can make a lot of progress for the american people on voting for this infrastructure bill, more importantly, this is not some kind of hard and fast deadline, like shutting down the government tonight. we will have ample opportunity,
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to continue these discussions, about making progress for the american people. we will have next year another opportunity to have a reconciliation, bill for fiscal 2020, we can do some things that may not be done this year. i will also say, in this is not to them but, we are facing an opposition party, which has no interest whatsoever, in having the government, the federal government approach to childcare and senior care, and paid family medical leave. and climate change. early childhood education. all the things we're trying to do. that's the only reason we are involved in this convoluted processed, called reconciliation. we have no partners in doing this, we have no republican party, what's interesting in solving many of the challenges of the american economy and culture.
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we are where we are, it's sad, but let's get done what we can do under the convoluted process that we're in. >> mr. chairman, always looking to have, you especially tonight. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks lawrence. >> thank. you were joined now by senator gonzales from texas, thank you very much for joining us, tell us your, how you've worked your way through this legislative procedure so far, and where you are tonight on the two tracks of the legislation. >> well, i feel confident that we will have an agreement either tonight or tomorrow morning, to be able to vote on this bipartisan infrastructure bill. that i think is going to be a transformative. a bill that every single member of congress gets to think about 1.2 billion dollars to their district. that is going to be transformed
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in terms of our roads, in bridges, and drainage an infrastructure. just across the country, things that we know have been crumbling for a generation. i think it's a very tough decision to vote no on this bill, and my position has always been that we should not hold this proposal hostage, or link it in any way to reconciliation. and the speaker committed that she was going to put this on the floor today. maybe she will do it on the morning. but i hope by sir and we will be voting on this bill, and it was successfully passed the house. then we need to look at reconciliation separately. and clearly it's a huge investment in the american people, but earlier we i heard you say something very interesting. why are we talking about $1 amount? we should be talking about the programs that we are interested in, and making this massive investment in the american people. that has not been done in generations.
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for the first time, college graduates will be able to go to community college, tuition free. for the first time, seniors will receive vision and dental and hearing care under medicare, for the first time will be negotiating medicare will be negotiating pharmaceutical prices, with pharmaceutical companies, to ensure that our seniors have low pharmaceutical prices. this will be a transformative in so many ways. but it we shouldn't be caught up in a number. i think we should talk about what we need and what we want. and then figure out what it costs. much like you said earlier, we can't get caught up in 3.5 trillion. maybe everything we need, cost half of that. where it costs two trillion. but i think we need to have a conversation in getting to that number. and i'm confident, that nancy pelosi is a master negotiator. i'm confident should get this done. >> but in your own case, if the menu of everything you wanted,
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in this bill. if you sat there and worked out all of the provisions you wanted in the bill. and then you looked over at the cost, and you saw 3.5 trillion, would that be something you could vote for? >> i would have to look to the pay fourth. how are we gonna pay for it? as -- this is 1% of our gdp, over a tenure, period it's a drop in the bucket, and it's for the first time a massive investment, in the american people. i don't like to see any industry targeted, in a punitive way, like texas energy or any kind of energy of any kind of a sector of our economy, we need to be fair and balanced, and thoughtful, but i think this is something that we are working through. >> congressman, thank you very much. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> and we're going to stay with a house of representatives after this break.
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bernie sanders just told reporters tonight. >> you cannot in my view have an agreement at 2:00 in the morning that nobody has seen. so my hope again that the strategy should be to get through the infrastructure, we have to defeat it now. we have to sit down with everybody and passed two pieces of good legislation.
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>> joining our discussion now denim credit card is roman of texas, thank you very much for joining us tonight. what is your reaction to what you just heard senator sanders say? >> i wish that senators would stop talking about the house, and maybe we can stop talking about the senate. we have our own business to do here. i think it's critical that we do. i told my caucus that not only is this policy and incredibly important on the table, but really, american democracy is on the table. it shouldn't be that were the only party that's interested in protecting our democracy, but that's the situation that we're in. americans in the last election came out in record numbers in the middle of a pandemic to vote for a democratic majority. that has to deliver. because authoritarian's love it when democracy's failed. they love it when democracies are suffered great loss and we are dealing with an authoritarian that is a former president and is still out there, it is actively working to undermine the next election.
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>> i just wanna talk about something senator manchin just said, the control room will have to tell me if this was on video or whether i have to read. this if it's on video, we can go to it, but i'm going to read. we might get in on video later. senator manchin just said, we just need a little bit more time, we're getting that time in order to do it. we're going to come to an agreement on shrine to make sure they understand that i'm at 1.5 trillion. i think 1.5 trillion does exactly the necessary things we need to do to take care of our children, take care of our people, at the end of life. our seniors. and we're working on that. i don't see a deal tonight. i really don't, and i'm hoping that everyone is sympathetic towards we're trying to all work. >> senator manchin says he doesn't see a deal tonight. have you been given any
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indication, any more than what the speaker said in her letter, about when you might be able to go on tonight? >> i think we're not going to see it tonight. i think negotiations will probably carry on tonight, but i think they'll be brought back tomorrow, and will have more discussions, and i think the caucus will have to be briefed on what those discussions are. and we are running out of time today, but i think it's important, that we do try to find it least a framework, by the end of the day tomorrow. >> what is your reaction to what senator manchin is saying? he's saying that his top line, his absolute top line is 1.5 trillion. and that's what he said to chuck schumer back in july 28th, in that memo that we've now seen today. he's in favor of almost all of the tax provisions that have been discussed, in fact he's in favor of the carried interest, which the house ways of means committee did not do. he's in favor of a more liberal
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tax bill, then the house ways and means committee has already delivered here. what is your reading, of the mansion position as of tonight? >> i don't think the top line is as important, we've seen so many people discussing. it depends on what we're talking about here. are we talking about how much time are we talking about? is it ten years is it five years? we're talking about revenue that's raised, in anything above that. i think we should focus more, as everyone is, said as you have said. on the policies, that are transformative. i was the first member of congress to ever take paternity leave. in 2019. and i want to make sure that every american, have access to paid family medical leave, something that you marry of our fellow americans don't have very, now that we can do in this bill. we know we have the threat of climate change facing, us it's really with this already. we have to address that in this bill. we can do incredible things. in the state of texas we can
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give one and a half million texans insurance by expanding medicaid. which we can do in this bill, even though our state won't do, it we can offer to texans. those are incredibly important policies. and the top line to me, is really less important than the policies. i wish everyone stop talking about. it because it is just a number. >> congressman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. we appreciate. >> thanks lawrence. >> we'll be back after this break, we will have more analysis of what's happening on the house, not on the house floor, it's actually in those closed rooms, in those conference, rooms in the house. those conference rooms in the senate. that's where the deal is getting done. in those rooms, with the door closed, will be back right after this. closed, will be back right after this after this pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. ♪ when you hear 'cough cough sneeze sneeze' ♪
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you aren't a budget ridge illusion, i don't think any of this was needed at this time. i thought the infrastructure bill is really what was needed. but i said fine, this is a
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condition i will agree, two and that was a 1.5. >> joining us now greszler cyst, orient -- eugene robinson, pulse prize-winning column is for the washington post, and a political analyst for msnbc. jonathan is an opinion writer for the washington post, and the host of the sunday show with jonathan kaye part, on msnbc. we begin with jonathan capehart. who coined the phrase for us to describe this situation as, the storm before the calm. jonathan, how stormy is it tonight? >> lawrence, when i said that to you on monday, it was you know, stormy, but right now, it's like hurricane, we are deep in the middle of all of this. so yes. it's pretty stormy out there. but i want to tell you something lawrence. tonight, i served as the mc for
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the washington film festival, and getting the john robert lewis legacy word, was none other than james cline burn. who was there in attendance, the entire dinner. notably the dinner ended at 9 pm. which was when speaker said, if there's gonna be of, oh it won't happen before 9 pm. i talked to climb burn, and i asked, him what is going to happen? in here's what he shared with me, cause i asked him. do you have the votes? is this going to happen tonight? and he said that if anyone can bridge the divide, it's nancy pelosi. in if she is able, if she's able to do it, and he thinks she will. that she will go down as one of the greatest speakers of all-time. but the best part he said was. she has said the vote will be tonight. it could be 9 pm, or 4 am.
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but it will be tonight. >> okay. >> he told me that a couple of hours ago. so you know how storms. our >> eugene this sun won't be shining during the vote. that's all we know. so far, i have to say, nothing says stalemate, more, than june clyde burn is out and in the advent, until 9 pm. casinos, where it is stalemate. nothing is happening. i can just stay here at this event. >> the film festival was a great event. but in a moment like this, for jim clyburn to be lulling a round with jonathan in a bunch of nice people at the film festival, does say something, about how fast they're moving on the bill. it's gonna happen, he has to be there. he counts the votes.
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>> norm, you've been watching it closely, what do you think of the state of play as of this hour? >> one of the things we know lawrence, is you and i have both seen a lot of these negotiations, they are going to drag on, and then ultimately will reach a resolution, jim clyburn could go there, because the house at this point is not going to be doing anything. there's no way in which you're going to be negotiating with the moderates, or the so-called progressives. until we have a framework. that's what nancy pelosi's magic will come into play. because she is going to have to convince enough progressives, that a framework is enough to vote for this bill. i don't know, it might come tonight, manchin has left the capitol. maybe a lot of other key figures are going to be going to the house vote to negotiate with them. i'm still a little nervous that we haven't heard anything from -- also, keep in mind, when
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manchin says 1.5's mind bottom line, or my top line. however you want to frame. it awhile back he said we should have four trillion dollars in infrastructure spending. then he said, i'm comfortable with two trillion. when he says these things, it shouldn't be taken to seriously, and we know there are a lot of ways to reach an agreement, including shortening the number of years in which you have these programs in place, the bottom line is not a terribly significant figure. i'm still nervous that the tax numbers, and the substance of the tax figures, are going to be ones were mansion in cinema will take different points of view. that's what concerns me more about reaching another stalemate here. >> it's a good point. it's the old saying, which is true, nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to, so mansion in cinema could agree on 1.5 are some number,
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and then disagree on the internals to. and then you have a real problem, jonathan kaye part, it may come down to, the most progressive, the speaker of the house in history, who represents one of the most progressive districts, in the congress. san francisco. negotiating with the progressive caucus, to get them to come along with her, on a road that's basically being laid out for them by joe manchin and senator sinema. >> yes, what you have speaker pelosi is yes, she's the quintessential quote unquote, san francisco liberal, however she is the speaker of the house. and she takes her role as leader of the democrats, in the house, very seriously, and she also takes very seriously, protecting her caucus.
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when she decouple the reconciliation bill, from the bipartisan bill earlier in the week, that was part of her role as okay, if this is not going to happen, i have to get something for my members, so that when they start running for reelection in 2022, they have something to run on. it's also very important for a lot of her members, in her caucus, that a lot of the things that were promised in the reconciliation bill, that there be seen as, movement. that there's movement on this. so that those members of congress, can go out to their constituents and say this is what i'm working, this is what i'm working on. and this is where we're moving towards. and so what i've seen with nancy pelosi, as we've seen the two times now that she's had the gavel as speaker of the house, is that she is a progressive. but she is pragmatic. and she will do whatever it takes, to get a deal. and to protect our caucus.
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>> well, jonathan, as you've been speaking, i've been getting the news that, in this is nbc news containing this at this stage, from how staff. that there will be no votes tonight. that the leadership has decided, the speaker has decided no votes tonight, that means they'll be coming back in the morning, jeanne robinson, that is sometimes, it's sometimes when you're outside the room, it's sometimes a good sign, because it means oh the negotiations are continuing, but sometimes a bad sign, because the longer it takes the more difficult it gets. >> could be a really good sign or a really bad sign. it's hard to tell. what's different this time i think, is that progressives in the house, have numbers, and they have power, and they know they have power. i don't think they're going to
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vote, for the hard infrastructure, bill without a framework, for the other infrastructure bill. there's going to have to be a framework. and it will have to be something, that not just pelosi console, to but that she can sell to the members of the progressive caucus. and so, it's probably gonna be north of 1.5. >> norm, we have to go to a break in a second, but this is when the speaker, and i will never forget hearing the speakers say this, when i was in these closed rooms and others. they always say, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. in that's where we will probably be on this tomorrow morning, with the progressive caucus. >> remember that the speaker also has got in the moderates, who promised a vote on monday, tuesday very quiet about the fact that they're not going to get evo until at least friday. she is managing to work both
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sides of this very well. now the question is whether chuck schumer, terral, and brush eddie can get the senate to go along with something she consulted both sides. >> that isn't a team of legislative negotiators that you just named. we will see what they can do. norm, jonathan, eugene, thank you so much for joining us during this briefing news. really appreciate it. >> thanks lawrence. >> we will be right back. s lawrence >> we will be right back >> we will be right back a cold is not just a cold. unlike other cold medicines, coricidin provides powerful cold relief without raising your blood pressure be there for life's best moments with coricidin. now in sugar free liquid. i've always dreamed of seeing the world. but i'm not chasing my dream anymore. i made a financial plan to live it every day. ♪ ♪ find a northwestern mutual advisor at nm.com ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪
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we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. now that donald trump and his supporters in the republican party all over the country, have launched a continuing assault on democracy, the news media it faces a challenge, of how to report that story without appearing to simply be reporting one political party against another. mark jacobs is the news media has been quote, unintentionally complicit in the rise of fascism. that threatens our democracy. those are his words. and he includes himself among those who have been complicit. mark jacob, edited page one
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stories for the chicago tribune. and he describes the challenge facing the news media, in a channel series of tweets, mainstream media have long tried to treat republicans and democrats equally. some, like me, thought that was the way to be fair. in fact, it was a way to be lazy and not have to sort out the facts, just quote a democrat and quota republican in your dumb. when i headed political stories, i went so far as to count the courts for republicans and democrats, thinking an equal number would make us fairer. i didn't think i was helping either party. i thought i was helping the readers, i was wrong. the republicans have overwhelmed the media with corruption. they've created scandal fatigue, prompting journalist to do something i call ethics norm-ing. that's when something that would have been a huge scandal in the recent past, is considered normal now. some media have turned off their outrage impulse and decided that corruption is normal. what's needed is new framing. not party oriented, but democracy oriented, truth
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oriented. the myth shooting it elevate liars in the interest of fairness. yes, media should be fair to the readers, to the facts. but not to the two party system. to our democracy. joining us now where mark jacob, former editor of the chicago tribune, and staff writer for the new yorker and professor of journalism at columbia university. he is co-editor of the new book, the matter of black lives. mark jacob, what's brought you to the points of going public with your thinking about this challenge now? >> well, being out of the news business makes it easier. i must admit. i was just, i watched the news every day, and you see all of the dishonesty, and you wonder why isn't called out so much. i was in editing stories for four decades. four decades ago, i think, there was some similarity and honesty, and in corruption,
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with the democratic or republican parties. they were close enough to wear again as i said in the, tweet if you quoted a republican, quoted a democrat, that added up to somewhat fairness. but you've seen a dramatic problem, in my opinion with the way the republican party is being very dishonest, just lies lies lies. corruption, corruption, corruption. in the democrats in my opinion becoming think about what they were 30 40 years ago. you have this gigantic imbalance and how these parties are behaving, in fact one of the parties isn't really behaving like a party, it's reclaiming like a criminal enterprise in my opinion. so what is the news media do? some of them, don't do anything. they follow the same patterns they fall over 30 or 40 years. in that's what i was calling out. >> professor cobb, is there a way to write a new set of rules, that will work, or is this a
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dynamic challenge, where the approach to it has to stay agile and change, as the challenge changes? >> i think there's both. i think there's some rules and guidelines you can follow, fundamental of which is to not treats an equal things equally. as mark said. but the other part, of it the part that is dynamic. is to be mindful of just how quickly her situation has changed. over the course of the past several years, we are actually having january six, in the background. some of the outrageous things that have happened. and we're seeing that people on the, right people in the republican party, are talking about january six, as if the people who stormed the building were the ones who were being wronged. over the course of, time unless that is called out. unless that people are adamant
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about with the facts of this exclusion actually were. you do wind up normalizing something that is exceedingly dangerous. i would add, betraying the mission that we have interested to media and the constitution. >> mark, i've always found the challenge, once the trump air began, of trying to describe the extraordinary thing that happened that day, as extraordinary, and trying to make it sound different from the one that happened yesterday. and trying to maintain the correct kind of shock or outrage level at what we were observing. it's a constant challenge. >> that's the thing, news is supposed to be unusual that didn't happen yesterday or the day before, yet this corruption that we're seeing, in really big corruption. just outrageous comments, like calling the january 6th rioters
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tourists. that kind of crazy behavior happens day after day after day. and there's only so much outrage you can do. and that's why i called scandal fatigue. that's been a real problem, especially in tv media, and you see that. it's a real challenge. the thing about, the january 6th select committee, is now been formed, and i was watching a tv news report, and at the end of, it the reporter in attempt to be fair, said, well the republicans say that this committee is just a partisan witch hunt. all right that's the republican view. but in my opinion, that report or did not need to say that. we know it's not true, we just know, we know that the republicans, attempted and succeeded in blocking a bipartisan commission it would've been bipartisan unfair,
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they don't want any kind of investigation. and so for them to now dump on the idea that the select committee has been formed to try to find out why people tried to, commit an insurrection against our democracy, becomes, what i'm saying is, that level of fairness is not fairness. it's actually helping the people who are trying to destroy our democracy. >> we will have to leave that challenge there tonight. mark, mr. cobb, thank you very much for joining. us we will be right back. ry much for joining us we will be right back us we will be right back ybody who's had it. your uncle had shingles. you mean that nasty red rash? and donna next door had it for weeks. yeah, but there's nothing you can do about it. camera man: actually, shingles can be prevented. shingles can be whaaaat? camera man: prevented. you can get vaccinated. baby, call the doctor. camera man: hey! you can also get it from your pharmacist! 50 years or older? get vaccinated for shingles now. welcome to allstate. where you can pay a little less
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there will be no votes in the house tonight and the house will go back into session at some point after 9 am, tomorrow. that is tonight's last word, the 11th hour with brian williams starts now. be >> well good evening once again day 254 of the biden administration, and while one crisis was averted tonight, when the president signed that bill to keep the government from crashing at midnight eastern time, we are indeed witnessing a midst of another crisis. for the democrats, and it should be noted a crisis entirely of their own making. and it has to do with infrastructure. what became a running joke during the trump presidency has become a huge running drama for the biden president. we

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