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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  September 29, 2021 3:00am-5:58am PDT

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thank you all for getting up "way too early" for us this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. see you over there. this week in covid history. as we end september 2020, the men who would be president have a "get to know ya." >> provide a -- >> by the -- >> why would you -- >> the question is. the question is -- >> radical left. >> will you shut up, man? >> listen. >> someone had to say it. next, it is time to play everyone's favorite game. >> do you condemn white supremacists? >> the question is -- >> are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists? >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> the answer we were looking for was, "yes." winning isn't everything. >> we won the debate last night. >> let's double-check that
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measure. >> this was the most chaotic debate i've ever seen. >> what a dark event we have witnessed. >> a low point in american political discourse. >> that was a [ bleep ] show. >> the [ bleep ] show must go on. it's party time, as the president throws a garden party, where it's positive. >> kellyanne conway positive for covid-19. >> reverend john jenkins tested positive. >> positive for the coronavirus. >> oh, well. so long as the president is -- >> this is a fox news alert. president trump just tweeted he and the first lady have tested positive for the coronavirus. >> well, he is sure to beat this. >> i'm going to walter reed hospital. i think i'm doing very well. i just want to tell you that i'm starting to feel good.
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we have enthusiasm like probably nobody has ever had. our people that love the job we're doing. >> hello, america. i am doing great. i feel very, very, very, very -- >> turn it off! >> he's fine. what a relief. thanks, satan. this has been "this week in covid history." good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, september 29th. we're following a number of developing stories this morning, including new allegations in another tell-all book from a trump presidency insider. among the claims, that the former president told russia's vladimir putin at the g-20 summit in 2019, quote, i'm going to act a little tougher with you for a few minutes but it's for the cameras. after they leave, we'll talk. you understand. we'll dig into a claim from trump's former press secretary.
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also, we'll discuss top military officers contradicting president biden on afghanistan, telling congress yesterday they had recommended a small number of american troops be kept in that country. and news on the coronavirus. what dr. anthony fauci is saying about a so-called mix and match strategy for covid-19 booster shots. and nba superstar lebron james reveals for the first time he got the covid vaccine, despite initial skepticism. but we begin this morning with the intrigue on capitol hill. how will democrats unite to pass two key pieces of president biden's domestic agenda? willie? >> yeah, this vote on the infrastructure bill is supposed to be tomorrow, but it looks a long way off from here. the president was scheduled to visit chicago today, but that trip has been postponed so he can remain in washington to work with lawmakers on a path forward for that $3.5 trillion reconciliation package and the
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bipartisan infrastructure deal. speaker nancy pelosi finds herself caught between progressives who want to enact the ambitious social programs in the reconciliation bill and centrists who balked at spending trillions more. she sent a letter to colleagues yesterday, saying it is morally imperative to pass the act. progressives will not vote for the infrastructure deal tomorrow until $3.5 trillion plan passes first. senator bernie sanders urging house democrats to vote against the infrastructure deal until another is reached. >> my fear is that if the dual agreement that was reached is broken, and we just pass the infrastructure bill, the leverage that we have here in the senate to pass the reconciliation bill will be largely gone. i think the one hope we have is to say, look, you guys want to pass the infrastructure bill? i want to pass it. you want to pass that, you have
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to deal with reconciliation. you can't just keep slow walking this thing. >> meanwhile, democratic senators joe manchin and kyrsten sinema visited the white house yesterday. the president spoke with sinema in the morning and separately with mch ithe afternoon. both said the reconciliation package needs to be trimmed to win their support. a growing number of house democrats are growing concern about senator sinema. three sources telling nbc news during a closed door meeting yesterday, representative khanna says there is a one-senator problem. later telling n news, we have one senator from a state president biden carried, from a state where her colleague is 100% on board, holdingp the agenda the entire house of the national democratic party. this senator refuses to even give a number. here is my question, when is the
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democric party going to tell a single nator, it's time to get behind our president. it is time to get in line. talking about senator sinema there. co-founder of punch bowl news, anna palmer. from the white house and "associated press," jonathan lemire. jim vandehei. co-author of the "confidence" code series, katty kay. this vote is supposed to be tomorrow on the infrastructure deal. this bill may or may not pass. there's a lot of work to do. in a letter, nancy pelosi said to her colleagues, we're not going to tie these two together. we just can't do it. let's get infrastructure passed, then we'll deal with the reconciliation bill. yesterday, progressives saying, nope, these need to be tied together. where does that leave them? >> nancy pelosi is in a really tough place here, you know, when it comes to the progressives. so far, they are holding firm.
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we have several progressives in "punch bowl a.m." saying they are not going to move forward with this infrastructure vote. nancy pelosi hates to put a bill on the floor if it'll fail, but this will be a true test for her. so far, she's not made much progress in convincing the progressives it's time to pass the infrastructure bill. i think infrastructure ultimately happens, but i think it is doubtful it happens this week. >> okay. so what is she going to tell -- what is speaker pelosi going to say to khanna, to bernie sanders, to the progressive wing of her party, who has now held the line, and say, "these two things cant be separated." what are the negotiations? what are those conversations like? >> they're really difficult. the progressives want some assurance that they are going to get a number, at least a top-line number. so far, you know, when joe manchin came back from the white house yesterday, he wouldn't even say they had even talked about a top line number. so nancy pelosi needs to give them something, some assurance besides the fact that, yes,
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we're going to get this done. what is the top line number going to look like? what is going to be included in there? she has been unable to do that because, so far, those senators, sinema and mancn, refused to do it. they put her in a tough position. >> jonathan lemire, oiously bernie sanders and others are worried about losing the leverage, i understand that, in terms of negotiations. but is president biden and nancy pelosi discussing with progressives and democrats as a whole the conquences of not getting anything done? what has been t issue with communicating that? >> there's growing frustration among democrats as to how the white house has been messaging and communicating its concerns to lawmakers and trying to bridge these divides. mika, white house officials have been telling me there is still a confidence here that this will get done, that it is impossible to imagine, they say, democrats submarining the agenda. the agenda is popular with the public. you know, it'd cripple their
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chances in the midterms next year and would potentially damage the biden presidency in its first year. this is the window to get things done. there's a sense here the president is not doing enough pushing, that he's listening, he's listening, focusing on the senate, two in particular, manchin and sinema. we've been talking about them so much. we had congresswoman debbie dingell on in the last hour, and there's frustration others aren't being addressed here, in terms of what they need to see out of the package to get them paired together and get this agenda put into place. we know the president has canceled his trip to chicago today. you know, that goes to show there's a sense of growing urgency that they need to get this done. the phones work on air force one. he could be lobbying members in the skies to and from this vaccine event in illinois. they're choosing to have him here, have more meetings at the white house, to be face-to-face making this pitch. this is an agenda that, perhaps not too big to fail, but it is
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too important to fail. democrats need to be rallied around that idea, the white house says. if this goes down to defeat, cr them. >> jim vandehei, the president isn't going to beg, twist arms, force people. at the same time, i'll ask you the same question, the consequences of not moving forward on these two key pieces of legislation, are democrats aware of that? are they talking about that? what are they saying biden needs to do to get this over the line? >> they're hyper aware of it. even coresswon dingell said earlier, they're unified on the idea that ifhey have nothing, it'd be catastrophic for the democratic party. what bernie sanders said in the clip at top of the show is the problem. he's not wrong. the mite they agree to the infrastructure bill and that's signed int law, they lose all of their leverage on the $3.5 trillion or whatever it shrinks to. so that'she game of chicken.
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what nancy pelosi is doing is saying, "trust me. i'm nancy pelosi. i'll give us the leverage. and trust me, we'll get joe biden behind us to get the package that you'll be happy with at the end of the day." progressives are saying, "i don't trust you." i look at how much power a nchin and a sinema have when you have a 50/50 senate. might not be many moderat left in america, buthe two in the senate are as powerful as the president right nown terms of dictating the deal. that has progressives frustrated. it is not clr. anna is probably right, it doesn't get done this week. next week, who knows what will happen? i work under the assumption they'll get an infraructure bill. but getting anything around $3.5 trillion or even half of that is exemely difficult, especially when you get into the details. i don't think any of us know how it'll play out. joe biden is sayinge's not going to beg. you're the president. you have to g. you can't just say, "i'm the demoatic president, therefore,
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you shall pass this." clearly, they're not listening. he needs a price tag. none of us on this show right now know what the price tag is because manchin and sinema won't say. the president is going to he to intervene and tell people, "ts is what the package ultimately will look like. trust me, we'll get it done. get infrastructure done. then we'll move on to the social spending cponents parts of it." >> wle this negotiation is gog on around these two massive pieces of legislation, over in the senate, minority leader mitch mcconnell is publicly telling democrats they need to raise the debt ceiling, but he's blocked yet another pathway for them to do so. yesterday, majority leader chuck schumer requested unanimous consent to bypass the 60 vote filibuster threshol looking for a simple majority vote to suspect the debt limit by themlves, but mcconnell objected. >> democts will not get bipartis help borrowing money so they can immediately blow histic sums on a partisan
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taxing and spending spree. democrat lear knew this request would fail. there is no chance, no chance the republican conference will go out of our way toelp democrs conserve their time and energy so they can resume ramming through partisan sociism as fast as possible. >> further complicating the process, the white house says president biden opposes changing the senate rules to raise the debt ceiling. democrats have few options left, as the deadline for default approaches. they, so far, have ruled out using reconciliation. schumer argues the process would take too long and that they don't have enoh time. >> we're not asking them to vote yes. if republicans want to vote to not pay the debts they helped incur, they can all vote no. 're just asking republicans, get out of the way.
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get out of the way, when you are risking the full faith and credit of the united states to play a nasty political game. we can bring this to a resolution today. using the drawn out and convoluted reconciliation process is far too risky. far too risky. >> katty, the cliffs three weeks away. trsury secretary yellen warned yesterday publicly of catastrophic consequences of losing the faith and credit of the united states for the first time in its history if the senate doesn't figure this ou what mitch mcconnell and republicans are saying is, yes, you have to raise the debt ceiling but, , we won't help you. furthermore, we're going to block some of the paths that could get you there. >> right. democrats don't want to be the only party that is left voting to do this because they don't want the votes to come back to haunt them if the republicans weren' alongside them.
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they point out that in the past, they have helped republicans in this situation and voted to raise the debt ceiling when it was necessary to do so. i thought janet yellen timing yesterday was interesting. the words she choseere interesting. a lot of americans have been rejoicing in the fact that the u.s. economy has rebounded as qukly as it has out of the pandemic. but yellen left us in no doubt yeerday what would happen if americadefaults on its debt. you have the prospect of the stock markets crashing. that can cause a global stock market ripple effect. there is a real prospect of recession in the country. we've just got out of a brutal two economic years. america can't afford now for -- this is raw politics on the part of the republicans. democrats helped them in the past raise the debt limit. now wha democrats have to do is try to pivot this bac onto the republicans. in the past, they have made the calculation that the republicans would be blamed if t ceiling wasn't raised. they need to try to dot again.
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i think janet yellen's appearance yesterday was a part of that effort on behalf of the administration, to spell out what the catastrhic consequees would be of the republicans saying, "no, we're nogoing to help. we're leaving you to handle this one." >> anna, this is a real adline, as the secretary said, with huge consequences if it's not figured out. what is left for chuck schumer? he's not getting help from republicans. theresident says, "i don't want you to change the rules and use reconciliation in this se." what options are left for schumer? >> the hse is expected to take up aebt limit bill this week. they're going to try to pass that. it is unclear if pelosi even has the votes there. democrats continue to make this intellectual argument, that mitch mcconnell should help them out. he's not going to help them out. i don't quite understand why we continue to go through this process. as you said, we are three weeks from the deadline happening. this is going to be a big issue, and they're probably going to have to use recreconciliation.
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there's not a lot of other things to do. politics are ongoing, but this is going to be an issue for schumer to figure out. there's just no sense that mitch mcconnell is going to help him out. >> all right. now, the latest information from t trumppresidency. stephanie grisham, presint donald trump's third press secretary and chief of staf to former first lady melania tmp is out with a new book next week, that according to the "washington post" alleges a litany of misdeeds by the 45th president. from ogling a young female staffer t orchestrating lies for e pubc to attempting to ban the ns media from the white house mpound. the book entitled "i'll take your questions now" also provides a rare look at the interaction between trump and russian president vladimir putin. in pages obtained by nbc news, grisham provides a first-hand
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account of an exchange betwe the two at the g-20 summit in 2019, writing, quote, with all the talk of sanctions against russia for interfering in the 2016 election and for various human rights abuses, trump told putin, "okay, i'm goi to act a little tougher with you for a few minutes, but it's for the cameras. after the leave, we'll talk. you understand." putin responded to trump's comment calmly. he never seemed to be charmed by trump or even impressedy him. if anything, the russian seemed to look down on him. the former president and first lady have both responded to the book by accuing grisham of being a poor employee seeki to make money at their expense. katty kay, that sounds like donald trump. this book says a lot about what was going on inside the white house at the time. but the frustration i think a lot of us feel is a lot of these people were seeing these things
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play out in real time but waited until after to write a book. >> the trump administration was full of people who could have called out the president in real time for instances like this one. for areas of, you know, national security, frankly, when he treated vladimir putin in one way and pretended he was treating him in another way. they failed to do so. this was not an administration full of profiles in courage. now, there is stephanie grisham making money out of a book when it's too late to have an impact to say he said one thing when, actually, he was meaning another thing. it would have been much more courageous of her, obviously. not just courageous of her but helpful for the state of the country and the health of the country, for her to have called this out in real time. she was in a position to do so, as she was close to the first lady at that time. she could have done this much earlier. >> jonathan lemire, let's take a
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step back and talk about stephanie grisham. she was for eight months the white house press secretary. you can forget that because she never gave a formal briefing to the press during that eight months. but this is someone who was there from the beginning. some people have dipped into the trump orbit, come out, and tried to claim some of the glow off that or write a book off of it. she was there from 2015 right through january 6th. she saw all of it. she participated in all of it. what do you make of this book, why she's doing it, and some of the content of the book, do you believe it? >> yeah. stephanie grisham during the 2015/2016 campaign, she was what is known as a press wrangler, meaning the campaign staffer who would stay with the traveling press core, myself included, as we went from city to city, rally to rally. she was there every single day. she saw every single speech. once donald trump was elected, she moved over to the first lady's office for a time.
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became very loyal and close to the forme first lady, melania trump, which is why some of the trump orbit reacted strongly to this book. it is not very flattering portrayal of the former first lady. then she moved to be press secretary, as you said. never took a single question. never held a formal briefing. then eventually moved back to the first lady's office. you know, a lot of these books written from trump-era advisers are certainly about reputation salvaging, of course. look, authors get paid. there's that, too. it is also made reflective of concerns about her future employment history being so closely aligned to the trump team. i'm sure, for some, it is a guilty conscience. maybe that's what we're seeing at play here. i should note two things though. the putin moment she describes in the book, it wasn't like president trump was tough with vladimir putin. i was at the summit. he mockingly waved his finger and said, "don't interfere in our elections." it was clearly a joke. that came across as tough.
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behind the scenes, we know he was even friendlier to his russian counterpart. i also wanted to share one other detail from the book that i found extraordinary. she writes that there is a trump aide in the white house who was designated as the music man, to play him his favorite show tunes, including "memory" from "cats." they'd play the songs when the president was in a bit of a rage. the music was meant to calm him down. >> wow. the "cat" sodtrack to soothe the president of the united states. jim vandehei, yesterday, there was a specificllegation of sexual harassment made by stephanie grisham to the president about another member of the press team working around the president. what do you make of this book, and what do you make of stephanie grisham, the person writing it? >> i mean, i don't know that there's anything that we learned from the bk that is terribly surprising about donald trump. what's interesting is the russian exchange. i think one of the reasons trump
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didn't do more as president, and from a lot of people's perspective, do more damage, is he never really understood presidential power. he thought of it more as showmanship. the idea he thinks a thug responds to a gentle nudge and charm shows he doesn't know what they respond to. brute force, intimidation. you saw this in so many aspects of his presidency. to me, this book isn't that much different than all the other books, which have put a little bit of meat on the bone of something we all know. there's so little that is now surprising in any of these books about what donald trump was doing because so much of it was unfolding in real time. everyone was leaking it. now, it's going back and putting some details around it. ishe a credible source? sure. e's as credible as anybody else who writes a book from the inside. there's pieces of it that i'm su are exaggerated. there are pieces that are quite accurate. there is nothing tt you're
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like, no, wait, i can't believe melania did that. donald trump? ner. it's exactly what you think they'd do, and it's behavior we've seen time and time again. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. anna palmer of punch bowl news, thank you, as well, for your reporting. great to have you both on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," facing fierce criticism from republican lawmakers. general mark milley defends the phone calls he made to his chinese counterpart in the final days of the trump administration. we'll be joined by the "washington post" bob woodward and robert costa, who were first to report those calls in their first book "peril." plus, french president emmanuel macron says europe mus assert independencfrom the united states. the latest on those simmering tensions between frae and the u.s. after a nuclear submarine deal with australia. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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29 past the hour. look at that beautiful look at new yorkcity, as the sun comes up this morning. the national institutes of health is on the verge of ncluding trials that mixed boosters and initial doses from pfizer, moderna, and johnson &
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johnson. during a white house covid briefing yesterday, dr. anthony fauci says that data will be availae within the next two weeks. >> the mix and match study in which you look at moderna as the boost against the other three, those data are now available. the j&j as the boost for the other three likely will be available literally within a few days to a week. and the data on looking at pfizer as the boost to the other three will be available somewhere in the first week or at the most two of october. that's when the data will be available. of course, as with all things we do, they must be submitted to the fda for their regulatory approval. >> so far, 2.78 million americans have received a booster dose since august 13th.
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and some tragic news in the fight against coronavirus. a 20-year-old college student in north carolina who resisted getting vaccinated has died of complications from covid-19. tyler gillwreath ignored his mother's pleas for months to get the vaccine, telling her he was young, healthy, and didn't have any pre-existing conditions. he finally relented, telling his mom that once he reached the campus of the university of north carolina at wilmington, he would get vaccinated. but he never got that chance. gillwreath contracted the virus two days after moving into college, and he quickly became severely ill and died on monday. a 29-year-old surgical technician from kentucky was buried last week at the site where her wedding was supposed to be held after dying from covid-19. samantha wendell and her fiance put off getting the vaccine over
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fears of infertiinfertility, he nbc news. they later changed their minds but tested positive for the virus one week before they were scheduled to get their first shot. wendell's fiance shared her story so that oths could learn from their mistake. willie? >> that's incredibly sad. let's turn back to washington. the country's top military officers testified yesterday before the senate armed services committee about the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. nbc news national security and military affairs correspondent courtney kube has more. >> reporter: blunt assessment from the top military advisers. >> strategically, the war is lost. enemy is in kabul. >> reporter: general milley, mckenzie, and austin were grilled over the chaotic afghanistan withdrawal. >> nobody has resigned. >> general, you should design. secretary austin, i think you should resign. >> reporter: the top brass were pressed about president biden's
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claim that none of his military leaders advised him to keep at least 2,500 oops in afanistan to avoid a taliban takeover. >> no one told me that, that i can recall. >> reporter: the advisers contradicting the president. >> i advised 2,500. >> did general miller's recommendations get to the president personally? >> input was received by the president. >> reporter: the white house responding. there were recommendations made by a range of his advisers, something he welcomed. >> reporter: meanwhile, milley went further, contradicting president biden's asserti that thefghanistan withdrawal was a, quote, extraordinary success. >> would you use the tm "extraordinary success" for what took place in august in afghanistan? it was a logistical success but a strategic failure. >> reporter: and he was asked if the rushed exit that left americans and afghan allies
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behind damaged u.s. credibility. >> i thi the damage is one word that could be used, yes. >> reporter: later, milley was pressed if he considere resigning because the president disregarded his advice. >> why haven't you resigned? >> the president doesn't have to agree with the advice. >> reporter: also speaking of the outgoing trump admistration whene told a chinese genel, ie'reoing to attack i'm going to call you ahead of him. >> im certain thatresident trump did not attend to attack the chinese. my task at that time waso de-escalate. >> courtney kube reporting for us there. joining us now, president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas, and retired four-star navy admiral james, diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. admiral, i'll start with you, first on the contradictions by generals milley and mckenzie
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about their recommendation to the commander in chief, that 2,500 american troops will kept in place. president biden said, in no uncertain terms to george stephanopoulos, he never received that counsel, never received that recommendation. what do you make of that contradiction playing out in public yesterday? >> incredibly uncomfortable moment for those three generals. because they're under oath. you know, you can only fall back so far to the, hey, all my communications with the president are privileged. at some point, you're going to tell the truth. and i ambased on their testimony, and also knowing them and analyzing the military situation myself, having commanded the mission for your years, 2009 to 2013, that they would have advised keeping at least that number of troops there so that you could, at the end game, have a more orderly withdrawal. so uncomfortable for the three of them. no one in uniform likes to go up
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and contradict their political bosses, but you have to tell the truth in front of the senate armed services committee. >>ichard haas, some of the reporting around general milley's callso china around january 6th suggested he was almost going rogue. he put it into context yesterday, saying he d it with the knowledge a support of the secretary of defense. it was part of his duty as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staf to reach out to foreign governments, the way he did with china. what did you think about the way he hdled that, which has been a topic in washington over the last few weeks? >> i think he largely put it to rest, willie. we do have these so-called nil-nil challenges between the united states and other countries, to head off would-be crises. sounds like general milley used the channel correctly, clearing it with his civilian possbosses signaling to the chinese we
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weren't about to do something. it seems there was intelligence where the chinese thought something was in the works. i think he was simply trying to calm things down and head something off before there was unintended consequences. so my take is he did what he ought to be doing. >> one note, we're going to have bob woodward and robert costa on in a few minutes. they are the authors of the book "per "peril," and they had the first reporting on this. katty kay has the next question. >> yeah. admiral, if i could ask you about some of the things that general mckenzie said, that they failed to anticipate. he went through this long list of, you know, we didn't realize the snowball effect of the deals the taliban leaders were making with local leaders. we didn't fully understand the level of corruption that was there. we didn't understand the poor leadership in the senior ranks. i mean, going forward, what does that say about concerns about our ability to understand other conflict areas? i mean, it was a devastating
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critique, really, of a failure in intelligence in the u.s. intelligence community. i wonder where that puts them, you know, looking at other conflicts, how concerning that is. >> obviously, very concerning. in addition to the intelligence failure, katty, there were other factors at play. the taliban performed extremely well in the end game. pakistan provided a lot of support. there have been mistakes all along the 20 years of this journey by the u.s. military. i think that when you kind of put all those factors together with the intelligence failure here at the end game, it does paint a very dark picture. two points worth making, as i always say about afghanistan, for those 20 years, the huge part of the mission was to avoid another attack on the homeland of the united states. that was successful. i would say that to any afghan veteran who is listening today.
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the second point to remember is that the enemy gets a vote. we did our best in many cases, but at the end game, we were outfought. we need to draw the lessons from that and go forward. i'll close with one other thought, going back to general milley. when i was supreme ally commander of nato, i would often pick up the phone or have a meeting with my counterpart, the supreme commander of the russian armed forces, general makarov. that's chairman joint staff 101. he is doi the right thing. >> while this is going on, french president macron is urging european leaders to be independent from the united states. in a news conference announcing a major defense deal with greece, president macronuropean not to rely on amera. quote, for a bit over ten years now, the united states has been very focused on itself and has
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strategic interests that are being reoriented towards china and the pacific. it's in their right t do so, but we would be naive, or rather we would make a terrible mistake to not want to draw the consequences. this comes just weeks after the united states announced a partnership with australia and britain that allows australia to buy u.s. nuclear submarine technology, effectively cancelling a dealustralia had to purchase submarines from the french. french officials were so angry over the matter, they recalled their ambassador from the u.s. for the first time in history. president ben attempted to smooth over relations with macron. but these comments, richard haass, show there may be long-lasting diplomatic issues with a close ally. richard, i'm curious what your thoughts are here. you know, the sub deal, there were many experts who say the french should have seen that
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coming. is the french president,ou know, taking advantage of the situation of the past four years plus this sub deal and taking a cheap shot here, or what do you make of these comments? >> i don't think it's a cheap shot. that said, he has an election coming up next year. this clearly embarrassed him. but i think we have to take a step back. charles de gaulle, somewhere from his grave, is watching this and probably iling. this is not the first time a french president has said we can't rely on the united states. we've got to become more autonomous, more independent. it's n just the sub deal, mika. you had the unilateral departure from afghanistan. 7,000 allied soldiers there were caught out by the american policy. years ago, mr. obama, barack oba, talked about, you know, standing upo the syrians if they used chemical weapons. they used chemical weapons. guess what? the united states folded. so the united states has at times disappointed the
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europeans. the problems for emmanl macron is what he's talking about, a more independent europe, is not the capability and ion't think there is the appetite. that'd mean the germans and others would have to spend much more on defense. the last i checked, that's not where european public opinion is. it's not where european political elites are. so i think there's a gap between what mr. macron is calling for and what we're likely to see in europe. there's this uneasy transatlantic relationship, which has been going on now for, what, 70, 75 years. i think this is going to continue in an uneasy way. >> well, in fact, richard, you have a new piece out today for "foreign affairs" magazine entitled, "the age of america first." washington's flawed new foreign policy consensus. does that tie in here at all? >> absolutely. what we're seeing is the united states that's become much more nationalist, much more turning inward, much less concerned with its role in the world.
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macron is picking up on it. he would point -- he pointed, mika, in the statement you quoted to the united states being much more focused on china and asia, the united states turning away from the middle east, getting out of afghanistan. we no longer join global trade agreements. you know, donald trump called it america first. joe biden calls it foreign policy for the middle class. has buy america provisions in our laws. the europeans see the handwriting on the wall. this is not the america of harry truman. this is not the america of john f. kennedy and others. the united states is in a very different place, and the europeans are going to have some very tough decisions, as are others, for what are they prepared to do? are they prepared to do more themselves, or are they going to need, again, to defer to their more powerful neighbors? >> richard haass and retired admiral james stavridis, thank you for coming on this morning.
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coming up, lebron james adds his endorsement to the league's push to vaccinate players, while other stars double down on their refusal to get the shot. even if it means they could be sidelined. the latest in the fight looming over nba training camps next on "morning joe." vo: taking on climate change. this is oumoment to get it right and here's how we do it- by putting the american auto worker on the job. building the electric cars and trucks that take us where we need to go without the pollution that's warming the planet. the cars we love, the trucks we depend on, all made right here in america by union auto workers.
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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." live picture of the brooklyn bridge. home across the river there of the brooklyn nets. the nba getting a big boost yesterday in its push to vaccinate its players when its
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biggest star, lebron james, announced he has had the shot. nbc's sam brock has more. >> reporter: the nba's efforts to vaccinate all of its players just got a massive jolt from none other than lebron james, who had been silent for months. >> after doing my research, things of that nature, i felt like it was best suited for not only me but for my family and friends. >> reporter: what does lebron james' decision to get vaccinated mean forhe nba? >> the face of theeague is now on ard. lebron james has always been a guy that's a trendsetter, an example setter. this is no different. >> reporter: according to the nba, 90% of the league reportedly received a shot. two marquee franchises, knicks and lakers, will have fully vaccinated rosters by sean start. other big name players are pushing back. >> it's none of your business is what it comes down to. you know, i don't ask you your police chiefs.
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>>--beliefs. >> some people have bad reactions to the vaccines. people don't talk about that. >> reporter: those sitting on the sidelines for shots will face more stringent testing and rules. new york and san francisco are issuing the requirement for home teams, meaning any player on the knicks, nets, or warriors who isn't vaccinated could risk missing all home games and docked pay by management. for some players, getting shots on the court mns getting shots off of it, too. >> jonathan lemire, there have been some reports this week abt vaccine skepticism and, in fact, pushing conspiracy theoriesy some of the biggest players in the league. reading stuff on instagram and tiktok and sharing that widely. it's a big deal that lebron james, the face of the nba, came out publicly and said, "i got the shot." >> it is. someone who admitted he didn't ght away but did get it. it is a good example. but this is going to be interesting to see how the nba handles this. another big name is lebron's
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former teammate, kyrie irving, who hasn't said whether he got vaccinated. he skipped media day, leading people to suggest he hasn't gotten the shot. he voiced skepticism in the past. if kyrie doesn't get the shot, he'd miss half of the team's games. he would not be able to play in any home game for a team expected to win a championship. he went there with kevin durant to do just that. how does that go over in the locker room? how do the nets handle that? there's going to be -- it'll be fascinating to watch. good for lebron. we have had sort of a shortage of big name sports stars stepping forward and saying, look, i got the vaccine. others should do it, too. tom brady got the shot, biggest in the nfl. months after he got a case of covid earlier in the year. mookie betts, of course, who i love as a former red sox, he's been out there more than anyone. the dodgers now even starring in commercials for major league baseball, encouraging people to get the shot. i hope more athletes follow the example of mookie betts, now
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lebron james, tom brady, and encourage others to get those vaccines. >> absolutely. still ahead, the "washington post"'s bob woodward and robert costa join us at the top of the hour after tir new book "peril" was brought up several times during a senate hearing yesterday. "morning joe" is coming right back. vo: e dama it's causing is undeniable... climate change. and with the build bacbetter act,
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♪♪ simone biles is speaking out in an interview with "new york" magazine, saying she should have quit gymnastics long before tokyo to focus on her mental health. nbc news correspondent kristin dahlgren has more. >> reporter: it was a moment that stunned the world. >> simone biles is out of the competition tonight.
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>> reporter: simone biles now telling "new york" magazine, it's like i jumped out of a moving train. after withdrawing from competition, the star spoke openly. >> i was like, no. mental is not there, so i just need to let the girls do it and focus on myself. >> reporter: but she now says it was a long time coming. i should have quit way before tokyo. when larry nassar was in the media for two years. it was too much. nassar is the former team doctor sentenced to life in prison after being accused of sexually abusing hundreds of young gymnasts, including biles. in an exclusive interview before the games, biles spoke about being an abused survivor. >> though i compartmentalized it, it slowly started to creep into everyday life. it started affecting how i lived. >> reporter: this month, biles gave searing testimony before the u.s. senate. >> i blame larry nassar, and i also blame an entire system that
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enabled and perpetrated his abuse. >> reporter: behind the scenes video diaries now part of the facebook docu-series "simone versus herself," offering an intimate look at her struggles. >> i feel like mentally i'm struggling. >> reporter: the star says she's now in therapy, a work in progress. putting healing on herself first. >> our thanks to nbc's kristin dahlgren for that report. we're back in just a moment with bob woodwarand rort costa. we're almost there. congress is close to passing a clean energy plan that tackles climate change head on by creating millions of good-paying jobs in the fastest growing industries. we can lower utility bills for families today while protectinghe planet our children inherit tomorrow. and once it does, it may never open again. congress, our window to act is closing act on climate change, now. geys oyour six, limu.
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>> i haven't read any of the books, so i don't know. >> in just a moment, we'll speak with bob woodward and robert costa, as their book "peril" took center stage yesterday at the senate hearing. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, september 29th. joe is off today. katty kay of the "confidence code" is still with us. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins us. we'll start with the tension on capitol hill, where democrats remain divided over how to move forward on two key pieces of president biden's domestic agenda. there is also growing concern about the potential for a government shutdown. nbc news capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: democrats facing delays, divisions, and tough decisions as they strgle among themselves over moving the president's agenda forward. speaker pelosi planning a thursday vote on the $1 trillion
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bipartisan infrastructure bill. >> i urge strong bipartisan support for this legislation. >> reporter: progressive democrats say they'll oppose that bill without a deal to advance democrats' $3.5 trillion social and climate policy bill, too. >> look, the agreement from the very beginning, and we've been talking about this for months now, is there is one big package. >> reporter: but the senate's two most conservative democrats haven't signed off on the larger bill. each meeting privately with president biden. progressives think you're dragging your feet, senator. >> everybody has their own opinion, right? >> reporter: congress faces a thursday deadline to fund the government or stumble into a shutdown. republicans blocked a vote, demanding democrats take sole responsibility for also lifting the debt limit. >> reporter: >> democrats will not get bipartisan help to immediately blow sums on a taxing and spending spree. >> white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamiche alcindor.
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the president doesn't seem interested in arm twisting at the moment, but there is an impasse between nancy pelosi, between progressives, between moderates, among the caucus on the democratic side to get anything done here. what is the president doing behind the scenes to help get it done? >> behind the scenes, president biden is really spending most of his time trying to talk to these lawmakers, to try to understand what it is they want to get to yes. so to look at how urgent this is becoming, president biden was supposed to be in chicago today. he was supposed to be talking about vaccine mandates, talk about companies who have adopted vaccine mandates. that trip is postponed because he's staying in washington, d.c., to meet with more lawmakers and lean into these conversations, to try to figure out how he can be helpful. i've been told by white house sources that -- and talked to multiple lawmakers yesterday. we saw kyrsten sinema of arizona
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come to the white house not once but multiple times. first she met with the president. i was told then she met with the staff of the president, top aides, trying to explain to her, here's what we think we can do to sort of meet your demands. joe manchin, i'm told by lawmakers and the white house, is the more wild card. it is unclear how to get him to yes. what is clear, though, is that the president is sort of seen by his party as the closer. that was what one lawmaker told me yesterday. they're also leaning on the president because, one, he was a senator. he understands what it means to be a senator, being called to the white house. understands what it means to have your party look at you and say, how can we get you to yes? also, his entire agenda is on the line. his vision for america, his promises to the american people. he was elected to be this elder statesman who could make deals across the aisle, who could bring transformational change, his words, to america. this week, all that hangs in the balance. this is one of the biggest tests of his presidency.
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as a result, he is on the phone doing everything that he can to get this through. the white house and white house officials told me he's not really twisting arms, but i should tell you, when i talked to lawmakers, they'll say, he is twisting arms. he's calling a lawmaker to the white house saying, we need you to get to yes. the democratic party needs you to figure this out. it would be a train wreck if these two bills didn't go through, infrastructure and the democratic reconciliation plan, if it don't go through because democrats couldn't get on the same page. that'd be very, very bad for the president and democrats on the hill. so they're really trying to get it together. the president is at the accept center after that. >> yamiche, kyrsten sinema was at the white house three times yesterday. met with the president once and staffers twice. if that isn't working, he hasn't got them to yes, and the axios story is correct that he doesn't want to beg, he might be twisting arms but doesn't want to beg, whatever the reason is, he believes in pelosi or has an antiquated view of party loyalty and believes they'll come around
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in the end, what's next? what does the white house think will get kyrsten sinema and joe manchin to yes? is there a plan? >> well, that is the million dollar questi. what is the plan, and how can these two senators be placated, essentially, into signing onto these bills? my sense is they don't want to put the preside in the place of pleading or begging because he is a psident of the united states. i was talking to a lawmaker yesterday. they say, you never want to put the presint in a room and put him in a position where he is the one doing the begging and pleading. so what's really going on here is the president is going to these senators, havin a conversation that goes like this, what do you want? what does your state want? how can i get you something that cements your legacy, that is in line with what you want to see done? then he's going to his staff. then you sit with someone like chief of staff ron klain, and that's when the person gets sort of more tough and says, we need you to get on this bill. we need you to do this fast. i'm hearing it's really about this top-line number. democrats had settled on the
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$3.5 trillion bill. i'm hearing it'll be closer to $2 trillion. there's a lot of disagreement on literally $1.5 trillion. that's the holdup here. i don't know what the plan b is. because democrats are leaning in on this two-track system. it was shaky when they decided to go this route to begin with. there were probls from the very day it was announced. now, the democrats have to pull it off because they've dn saying for weeks that they could. >> yamiche alcindor, thank you for your reporting. 'll be watching this closely. congressional hearings will continue today for three top defense officials regarding last month's u.s. withdrawal fm afghanistan. joint chiefs chairman mark milley, defense secrety lloyd austin, and u.s. cenom commander kenneth mckenzie will testify before the house armed services committee this morning, after answering questions fm the sene armed services committee yesterday. the focus of sterday's hearings was supposed to be
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afghanistan. milley was also pressed about two phone calls with his chinese coterpart in the last days of the trump administration, made without the former president's actions. milley insisted he folwed protocol byeeping other t whithousefficials ithe loop. >> these milary to military kmncat commicatio at t highe vel a critil to the securi of th unitestates t deec mitary actions a prevenar beten gatowers at arermed wh the rld's st ddliest weaps. the calls on 3ctobernd 8 january wereoordined before and after with secrery esp d actin secrerymiller staffs ortlyfter m callnded with nerallee, personall inrmed bothecretaf ste pompeo and white house chief of staffeadows about t ll, ong other topics
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no te was attpting to changernfluen the process, usurp authority, or insert myself in the chain of command. >> joining us now, the journalists who broke that story of general milley and china, recounted in their new book "peril." pulitzer prize-winning editor of the "washington post" bob woodward and political reporter for the "washington post" robert costa. good to have you both back again. bob woodward, how does what we just heard during the testimony yesterday dovetail with your reporting? explain once again what exactly general milley was doing in those calls with china. >> well, they're on a hair-trigger with china, as we know. there are all these exercises around taiwan, around the -- in the south china sea.
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it's definitely true, and it's consistent with our reporting in the book. the idea is to avoid war, to de-conflict. if you put yourself in milley's shoes here, four days before the election, october 30th, they get intelligence that china thinks we're going to attack them. this is the worst environment for a military man.oh, my god, we're going to attack them. you might get a pearl harbor where somebody will take the first move advantage, as they call it. so he's trying to close this down. this is a crisis moment. this is a practical time when he has to talk to general lee and say, "no, no, this is in the a situation where we are going to
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attack," like they had in their five-year relationship, they're always talking back and forth. i accept, and bob costa does, that this is exactly as it is described. but it was a national security crisis. >> bob costa, as the general gave his testimony yesterday, we were thinking about you guys and your reporting. so many republicans had taken what you guys wrote and said, in fact, what general milley did may have been treasonious. treasonous. what he said yesterday is not that it was routine in any way, but it was something that military to military conversations like this sometimes do happen. he said the defense secretary knew about this. i told secretary pompeo after the fact. there was nothing secretive about this. in fact, it was widely known across the government. what was your reaction to his
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testimony yesterday? >> it's so important, whether you're a house republican today or a house democrat, to read the whole book. the context is there in the book. to not cherry-pick a paragraph and say, "well, that defines the entire story." no, the book is the entire story of a dangerous transition. in particular, page 129 of the book details the whole conversation on october 30th. that whole conversation shows, based on our reporting, chairman milley telling general lee that, you need to calm down. it's not some kind of tip-off about an attack. he's saying in historic context, you'll always see some escalation. there will be communication, as bob woodward just said. there has been a five-year relationship between milley and lee. there is a level of trust there. he wanted to reemphasize that, to bring back the tensions, to avoid being on the brink of war. our book also shows, as chairman milley testified under oath, that he was reading other people in.
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in the prologue and throughout the book, you see milley talking to other officials. we detail his conversations with the head of the nsa. paul nakasone. we see him talking to gina haskell about the china calls. he talks to the joint chiefs of staff about the china calls. it's a dangerous story of a transition in total turmoil. the milley component is part of it. that's what we're trying to really give readers a portrait of. >> so milley also addressed a phone call with house speaker nancy pelosi just two days after the capitol insurrection, where the speaker reportedly expressed concerns about former president trump's mental fitness and access to the nuclear launch codes. take a listen. >> on 8 january, speaker of the house pelosi called me to inspire about the president's ability to launch nuclear weapons. i sought to assure her that nuclear launch is governed by a
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very specific and deliberate process. she was concerned and made very -- or made various personal references charaerizing the president. i explained to her that the president is the sole nuclear launch authority, and he doesn't launch them alone. and i am not qualified to determine the mental health of the president of the united states. there are processes, protocols, and procedures in place, and i repeatedly assured her that there is no chance of an legal, unauthorized, or accidental launch. by law, i am not in the chain of command, and i know that. however, by presidential directive and d.o.d. instruction, i am in the chain of communication. >> that is so chilling. bob woodward, i guess beyond that, in terms of mental fitness, there were others who questioned the president's mental fitness long before then
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insurrection. but the frameworks in place were not available to address this issue, or what did you find in your reporting in terms of how people inside the administration felt about the president's fitness and what they could do about it? >> well, look at this time. i mean, trump is really the one who is setting the stage here with all kinds of angry statements about china and the china virus. we describe at length the cream -- screaming fits he has in the oval office. this is chairman milley's judgment, that this is a president who is gone into a serious mental decline. but he said -- what he said yesterday is not a denial. he is just saying, "hey, i'm not fit to determine the mental
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fitness of a president of the united states." which is exactly true. but we have a transcript of it, and it really lays out this conversation. nancy pelosi is on fire. she is really worried. milley is trying to calm her down. he says, "oh, we have these procedures." then he thinks about it, and he realizes, as he said yesterday, the president has exclusive authority here. but there are procedures. in one of the most dramatic matters i've ever reported on, he calls in the people from the national military command center. this is the war room in the pentagon. he says, make sure that the process of including him, chairman milley, in any
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discussion of not just the use of nuclear weapons but any military action coming from trump or the white house. he literally goes around the room with these senior officials who were on watch rotation and says, "you got it?" "yes, sir." "got it?" "yes, sir." now, this has not happened since 1974, when secretary of defense james lessenger realized how nixon was unsteady, drinking, unreliable. he did exactly the same thing, made sure that no orders would come from nixon or the white house without him being involved. this is a replaying of this
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moment. it was appropriate. you read the transcript. nancy pelosi is worried. she is second in line to become president, and she made it powerfully clear, she is worried. she knows about the concentration of power in the president to do this. she wants safeguards. milley executed thos safeguards. >> bob costa, was there anything, apart from perhaps the fa that general milley hasn't had a chance to read your book yet, that did surprise you in what the general said yesterday, either about your conversations --he conversatis about nancy pelosi or about the conversations with the chinese? was there anything new that you hadn't heard before or that was perhaps at odds with se of your reporting? >> no. what's most important that hasn got eugh attention, in my beliefs a report,s when he said that heid not believe esiden trump wanted war.
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we detail tt position of milley in the book. he does not believe the president is an interventionist. at the time, presidenttrump. he does not believe trump wants to have war. but as our book shows and our reporting shows, even though he has that belief, thathe president is not itching for war in any way or trying to attack china in any way, and we spell that out, he has concerns about the president's conduct to the point of believing the president is in serious mental decline during the transition. these are the dynamics. complicated dynamics. you can, on one hand, think a president doesn't want war, but you also believe, as our reporting shows, milley did, that you could have a hair-trigger situation with china or something could happen. he was navigating all these different dynamics, including a call from someone second in line to the presidency in speaker pelosi. >> staggering details in the new book "peril." bob woodward and robert costa, thank you very much for coming on this morning.
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congratulations on the book. still ahead on "morning joe," what if america had learned from new york city? our next guest says much of the nation's ongoing tragedy could have been prevented. that's explained next on "morning joe." oh! are you using liberty mutual's coverage customizer tool? so you only pay for what you need. sorry? limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ this is e new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but whatever work becomes... whether it's finding ways to help you serve your customers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? what's an office? or solving a workpla challenge that's yet to come. whatever the new world of work takes your business,
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24 past the hour. united airline it is moving ahead with plans to termate close to 600 employees who didn't meet its covid-19 vaccination deadline. in august, the airline became one of e first large u.s. companies to require all 67,000 of its u.s. employees to be vaccinated by september 27th. company officials said most employees complied, but they are
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now starting the process of terminating 593 employees who didn't get the shots. those workers can still save their jobs if they opt to get vaccinated in the coming days. meanwhile, pfizer took a major step toward receiving approval of its covid vaccine for children, ages 5 to 11, submitting trial data to the fda for review after recently determining the vaccine is safe and well tolerated. nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez has the latest. >> reporter: with millions of children now back in classrooms, izer submitted phase 3 data to the fda for vaccines 5 to 11-year-olds, crucial step to authorization. >> barrier of protection for the little ones. >> reporter: pfizer's ceo with craig melvin, who asked him about even younger children under 5. >> i believe in aouple of months,e should be in the position to have the data and
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then eventually something before the end of the year. >> reporter: the 5 to 11-year-old children in pfizer's trial were given two smaller doses of the vaccine than those given to those 12 and older. the company says the smaller doses producedntibody responses that were comparable to those seen in older people who received the full doses. the vaccine also cause similar side effects to tho seen in adults, including arm soreness and fatigue. >> younger children are less apt to be infected, but we all know that there are children who become serious ill. >> reporter: perhaps nowhere has the debe over the future of the pandemic been so heated as in schools. >> we want choice! >> reporter: parents and administrators clashed over mask mandates, bus driver shortages, and vaccine requirements. new york city announced that teachers and staff would have until the end of the week to get vaccinated after a federal appeals court green lighted the mandate. >> i think they should get vaccinated. our kids are in there. they have to held
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accountable. >> reporter: less than a quarter ofmericans still haven't gotten a first shot. the confusion is mounting over who should get a third. the fda authorized the pfizer booster for emergency use for certain americans. in charleston, kitty got her booster, moderna, which the fda said can be offered to the immunocompromised. do you think this rollout of the boosters has been a little confusing? >> extremely confusing. the fact that when we came in this morning and they said, "you can't have the moderna because it's not yet been approved, as has the pfizer." a little bit vexed. thought, well, we wasted a trip down here. but then when we said we were immunocompromised, they said we could have the shot. >> all right. joining us now, member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gaye. her latest piece is "what if
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america had learned from new york city?" also with us, staff writer at the "atlantic," ed young, who recently won a pulitzer prize for his reporting on covid-19. ed's latest piece is entitled "all this could happen again." america is running out of time to prepare for the next pandemic. why don't we start right there. two great pieces. ed, aren't we still in the first one? >> yes. i make this point in the piece. no one wants to think about future pandemics. you know, the thinking is can't we just get out of this one first? i'm sorry to say that the answer is no. history tells us that when epidemics happen, attention and investments crest but then rapidly fall again, leaving us just pack where we started from. no better prepared for what is to come. more epidemics, more pandemics are to come. if we are to prepare for them, we need to do it right now.
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america has to chew gum and walk at the same time. >> so, mara, let's talk about new yo city. the city where you live and write about in your latest piec in lessons learned, we do back to the dark, dark days of march, april, and may of last year, when new york city was the epicenter. we look at things now. restaurants open. there are new rules in place that, yesterday i did it self, where you show your vaccine card. you show your , and you can go into a bustling restaurant full of people. what are the lessons that should be learned from new york city, which was hit soery hard at the beginning and seems, at least fornow, to have largely managed its way out of it? >> yeah. i mean, the heartbreang premise that i began with when i was thinking about how to write this was how sad it made me, that despite how pubc our trauma and suffering was in those early months of the
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pandemic here in the united states, there was plenty of cable news footage, right, on this network, of, unfortunately, victims of covid being piled in refrigerated trucks in the streets of new york city. somehow, that didn't seem to resonate with my americans across the count who i think struggled to see themselves in us. because ty think of new york, for whatever reason, very different politically, culturally, racially in some cases, and also, of course, because it is so dense. but the reality is, of course, at same pandemic that hit us ended up, you know,aking its way through the entire cntry and world, of course,s we know. i just was very sa thinking about the early lessons that could have been learned without such death and suffering, if there had been some common empay. and i think moving that forward, you know, this is not about a comeback story yet. this is how n yorkers and n rk city, inparticar, have
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carrd on, worki reall hd to protect one another. we're a city ofver 8 million people. obviously, you have the occasional person on the subway who doesn't wear the mask. don't get me wrong. butor the most part, wha you see in new york is millions of rangers who don't look anything like each other half the time, who have no problem masking u to protect one another. you don't see people burning masks in times square on the regular. that's jus not something that happens becausee understand that we have a commonurpose here. i think the irony is there's lot of talk about the heartland, but from my perspective, seeing new yorkers come together to endure, despite our many differences, is an example that can be learned from. doesn't mean we have everything figured out. we certainly don't. we've got a mlion school kids back at school. we've got tm masked up. wee got a vaccination mandate that's under way now for health care workers and wil soon be under way for new york city
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teachers. we are reall taking rational steps to end the paemic. i think if that is something that can be emulated in amall way culturally elwhere, you know, the coury may be more like new york city than it thinks. >> so , learning from new york city c happen in small ways but also pullg back and in very large ways. i feel the city is still so in it, dealingith the fight over vaccine mandates and masking. u know, in terms of your concept of preparing f the next pandemic, are the big thinking issues about how so many people live together in a small area, and how they,ou know -- what types of policies could apply t make them deal with the next pandemic better? is anyf that happening? what worries you? >> some of the preparedness plans that have already been put out have focused on what we
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traditionally think of in terms of preparedness. on biomedical countermeasures, vaccines, therapeutics, surveillance, technology, diagnostic tests. that all well and good. but i think that this pandemic has shown us what happens when you put biomedical countermeasures,ery effective ones, out into a profoundly inequal society, where millions ofeople can't access health care and wre there is a public health system that has been decrep decreped for more than a century. vaccination rates have plateaued and have slowed. what we need todo, i think, moving fward is to bolster the public health system, which really has been left to decay and rot for over 100 years now. the amount of money tt the u.s. puts into health care is astonishing. but only 2 to 3 cents of every dollar goes into public health.
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one woman i spoke to who leads a local health department in north carolina gets $4,000 a year to protect her community of 100,000 people from all communicable diseases. that's ridiculous. e infrastructure is crumbling literally so. their data systems areut of date. there needs to be a massive investment in u.s. pubc health to try tget the whole thing up to code. and, crucial are lycrucially, t needs to be stable. it can't be eroded quickly, as past investments have been. we need to break the cycle of panic and neglect. i think the las thing i would say is, our concept of preparedness needs to expand to the concept of social safety. people cannot prepare for a pandemic if society as a whole is not resilient. if there are so many marginalized and vulnerable communities, as we've seen in the u.s., who are greatly susceptible to a new virus. we need to think of preparedness
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not just in terms of vaccines but in terms of paid sick leave. in terms of widespread health care. in terms ode-carceration. in terms of letting others look after themselves. >> ed is right, mara, the covid pandemic revealed so much about the inequalities in the american system when it comes to the haves and have nots, education, health care, money, social welfare. on your point about the rest of the country learning from new york, i wonder, having looked at those states where delta has kind of run through those states and caused huge pressures on their local health care systems, and, yet, people still didn't respond. i mean, they did have something of new york in states where there are low vaccination rates. they saw their doctors and their nurses begging people to wear masks and get vaccinated, and they still didn't respond. i wonder whether it was ever going to be possible for people to look at the new york model from a state like tennessee or
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mississippi, where there was so much resistance to vaccination, so much resistance to mask mandates, and learn something from it, learn something meaningful. >> yeah. i want to be clear, i believe, actually, that we have seen an uptick in vaccination across the country in recent weeks, which i think is a bump that's attributed to delta. it is really -- what's happening here is that communities that haven't been affected, if you know somebody who is close to you who has gotten very sick, you might be thinking twice about this. so it's not happening on the mass scale that we would hope. don't get me wrong. but i do think that you do see some of that in the data. you know, the other thing here is that, unfortunately, large parts of the country, as we talk about all the time when we talk about american politics on "morning joe," they have become so tribal. so it is really shocking that that has opinion taken to the extent where some people who are literally dying of covid in hospitals we know have been in
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denial about it or have left the hospital, trying to get what have you. i think that's a really sad testament to just how radicalized some parts of the country have become. the amount of disinformation that has been spread in the country and the amount of denial. >> for sure. mara and ed, thank you. ed yong's latest reporting is for the "atlantic." mara gaye's column is in the "new york times." thank you both. a warning from former president barack obama about the politics of anger and resentment. "morning joe" is coming right back.
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it is 6:41 in the morning in the great city in chicago. 7:41 on the east coast. former president barack obama and michelle obama broke ground on the presidential center in chicago. speaking at the construction site, the former president said he believes his presidential center will speak to what he calls some of the central struggles of our time. >> we are living through a moment of rapid disruption. technology and the global economy, in our social arrangements, in our environment. and those disruptions can be scary. too often, it feels as if our major institutions have failed to respond effectively to these disruptions, to help people find economic security, or manage our differences, or protect our planet. what we've seen is that, in the breach, a culture of cynicism
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and mistrust can grow. we start seeing more division and increasingly bitter conflict. the politics that feeds anger and resentment towards those who aren't like us. starts turning away from democratic principles in favor of tribalism and might makes right. this is true in europe and in asia. it's true in latin america and in africa. and it happens to be true here at home. but the good news is, we can reverse these trends. i don't believe it's inevitable that we succumb to paralysis or mutual hatred. >> as the u.s. economy looks to rebound from the covid-19 pandemic, a new report shows one fast growing group is playing a major role in the country's
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economic growth. since 2010, the gdp from latinos living in the united states has grown from $1.7 trillion to $2.7 trillion. putting that number in perspective, if latinos living in the u.s. were an independent country, that gdp would be tied for the seventh largest in the world. so what is behind this massive growth? let's bring in saul, the co-founder of latitude, a group aiming to showcase the importance of latinos to the american economy. he's also co-founder of the latino donor collaborative, who authored that new gdp report. he joins us from a latitude event happening right now in san diego. saul, what's behind this growth? >> good morning, mika and willie. i'd like to say, first of all, you know, this is a great day. it's a great day to talk about
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exactly what you said, the contributions of u.s. economy, driving the vast majority of our growth. the increase of trillion in gdp in the last decade is unparalleled, other than you have to look at china and india as comparables in terms of the size in growth rates. so one of the things we like to do here is talk about what's fuelg it, as your question asked. numberone, it's about population growth. so the u.s.-latino cohort has been disproportionate. 60%, 70% based on the decade or half decade. growth rates in terms of total population. that's number one. number two, it is a youthful cohort. two-thirds of latinos are native born. the average age is about 19. so when we talk about incomes and talk about aot of things, i think, mika, willie, youan remember back when you were 19, how much money youere making
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versus when you were 29 or 39. so the second thing is that youthfulness. it sets us into a stage like in india, like a malaysia, like an indonea. the growth economies of the world. the thi thing is, entrepreneurship. the latino cohort has been the most entrepreneurial in the sense of business formations, by a lot in tms of this country, over 50% of employer-owned firms and 80% of what you might call sole proprietor plus employer owned firms. the final thing is consumption. in that period of time you referred to, mika, over 120% faster consumption growth rate an the rest of the economy. so all the variables that you want to grow an economy are right here. this population cohort is going to grow to 100 million people wiin the next 20 years or so because of i youthfulness. it is a greatttribute that
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sets us apart fromjapan, europe, and the other mature economies. >> sol, ts is interesting. interesting to see how well latinas are doing. it is a story many america don't know because we associate latinas coming into the country and new immigrants from latin america with low-income jobs. you're saying there is a entrepreneurial class moving beyond that. how much backlash do you think latinos might facecause they're growing. the dark side of immigrants coming to new countries and doing well is they still face a backlash. do you see latino workers perceived as the low-income workers who are not particularly welcomed by some americans? we saw it under the former president. do you wry there's a backlash against latino workers in e country? >> well, i'm always worried about a lot of this in our economy. not everything goes perfectly well, and not everybody understands how you actually
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grow an economy. but we just did a survey at the latino donor collaborative. it is going to be released this week in latitude. in 2012, we did a survey of all americans that said, what do you think about latinos, basically? the answer was, two-thirds of the people answered, basically, that latinos are takers. they come here, they go on welfare, tie up hospitals, et cetera. now, we just did another survey. it'll be presented later in the conference. in today's world, about two-thirds now think of latinos as economic contributors. that's what you see in surveys around immigration reform and all kinds of others. two-thirds of the population are in support of that. go one step further. today, we have 10 million, almost 11 million untilled jobs. you may say there is an available workforce of 6 or 7 million people. there's a gap. we need more workers. another thing proven is the latino cohort is the most
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productive cohort in our country, of all cohorts. so, you know, if the framers of our constitution and our country were dwing a job description of who is entrepreneurial, who is of family, who is of faith, who is patriotic, et cetera, this latino cohort fits the bill almost perfectly. so that's what we're trying to do at latitude, is create this conversation. what you're doing today is really important, talng about it. not just about hispanic heritage month. this is every day of the year and will be for the next two or three decades, as the driver. >> sol, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. we really appreciate it. we know it's early there. the latitude conference is under way right now in san diego. thanks very much. up next, a big development in a story we've been following. what to expect at a key hearing today involving britney spears and the legal agreement that has controlled her life for years.
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♪♪ 4 past the hour. the start of a highly anticipated day for former pop star britney spears. some of her fans calling it b-day. this afternoon is a long awaited hearing that could have major implications on her conservatorship and her life. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin is outside the courthouse in los angeles. erin. >> reporter: good morning, mika. while the fate of britney spears rests with a judge in the courthouse behind me it certaiy appears as though the conservatorship which has controlled her life and finances for more than a decade could soon be brought to an end, giving new hope to her fans and
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supporthat the free britney movement might become a reality. this morning, britney spears' court battle is reaching a crescendo. today's hearing the latest in potentially a milestone to free the singer from a 13-year conservatorship led by her father jamie. earlier this month, her father filed a petition to finally end the conservatorship, after contlling his daughter's life and 16 years more more than a decade. a judge could removamie today. britney's judge requesting cpa john zable take over temporarily. >> jamie still seems on citizen bstinate in the final moments.
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>> reporter: a follow-up to the documentary released over the week, detailing allegations that jamie spears and his team surveilled britney for years, bugging her room and mirroring her cell phone, even conversations with her lawyers. >> explained to me that brney's communication is monitored for her own, you know, security and protection >>eporter: theecurit company in charge of britney did not respond to nbc's request for comment but their lawye told "the new york times" they're particularly pro of keeping miss spears safe for many years. responding in part, all of his actions were well within the parameters of the authority put upon him by the court. and in a documentary today britney versus spears. >> i just want my life back. it's been 13 years and it's
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enough. >> reporter: the documentary examining how the conservatorship was established and raising questions as to why it's still in place. >> i represented dozens of conservetees in court not one has had a job. >> reporter: and britney and her supporters hoping the end of her conservatorship will bring in new beginnings. this morning, jamie spears releasing a statement saying that he loves britney unwaveringly and on wants the best for her. meanwhile, legal experts say they do not expect britney to emerge from this hearing a free woman. they do expect it to be a step in that direction and that conservatorship could be over in a month, mika. >> so, erin, obviously, a lot of questions about how this particular conservatorship was run and what they did but might there be a new way forward on
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how to address her set, if she's okay? >> reporter: well, it's really up to the discretion of the judge in charge of the hearing. it is possible that the judge could order that britney spears be evaluated, which say process that could take months. it's something that britney has said very clearly that she does not -- she feels she's been evaluated enough in the past 13 years in the coervatorship. mika. >> all right. thank you very much. still ahead, with the government shutdown looming on friday the clock is ticking for congress to get something done. we'll have the latest from capitol hill. plus, if you thought donald trump seemed subservient to vladimir putin in public, imagine what mig hav happened fromehind the scenes. reports fr a new book offers insights on that. and last month,e covered stories of americans who lost thei battle with covid after ying away from the shot. we'll talk about the heavy toll
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this week in covid history -- as we end september 2020, the men would would be president have a get to know you. >> you have to -- nancy pelosi -- >> the media. >> the allies. >> because the question is -- >> the question is -- >> justice to the left -- >> would you shut up, man. >> someone had to say it! this is time to play everyone's favoritegame. >> do you condemn white supremacists? >> and the question is -- are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists -- >> proud boys, stand back and standby. the answer we were looking for was yes. >> to debate everything.
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>> let's double-check that measure. >> this was the most chaotic presidential debate i've ever seen. >> what a dark event we've witnessed. >> and political discourse. >> and [ bleep ] -- >> was aligned -- >> and as the president goes to the hoosegow where it was contagious. >> testing positive. >> okay, that's just one -- >> kelli ann conway testifying positive. >> reverend jenkins tested positive. >> chris christie -- >> tested positive for the coronavirus. >> oh, well, so long as the president -- >> president trump just tweeted moments agatha he and the first lady have tested positive for the coronavirus. >> will he beat syphilis, he's sure to beat this. >> i think i'm doing very well. >> i just want to tell you that i'm starting to feel good.
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♪♪ and we have enthusiasm like probably nobody's ever had. people that love the job we're doing. ♪♪ >> hello, america, i am a doing great. i feel, very, very, very, very -- >> this has been this week in covid history. good morning. an welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, september 29th. we're following a number of developing stories this morning, including new allegations in another tell-all book from a trump presidency insider. among the claims, that the former president told russia's vladimir putin at the g 20 summit in 2019, quote, i'm going to act a little tougher with you for a few minutes, but it's for the cameras. and after they leave, we'll talk. you understand. we'll dig into the new claims from one of trump's former press
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secretaries. also, we'll talk top military ones contradicting president biden on afghanistan, telling congress yesterday they had recommended a small number of american troops be kept in that country. and news on the coronavirus. what dr. anthony fauci is saying about a so-called mix and match strategy for covid-19 booster shots. and nb superstar lebron james revealed for the first time he got the covid vaccine, despite initial skepticism. but we begin this morning with the intrigue on capitol hill. how will democrats unite to pass two key pieces of president den'somesti agenda. willie. >> yeah, this vote on the infrastructure bill is sposed to be tomorrow but it looks a long way off from here. the president was scheduled to visit chicago tay but that trip now has been postponed so he can remain in washington to work with lawmakers on a path forward for that $3.5 trillion
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reconciliation package and the bipartis infrastructure deal. speaker nancy pelosi finds herself caught between progressives who want to enact the aitious social programs in the reconciliation bill and centrists who have balked at spending trillions more. pelosi sent a letter to her colleagues yesterday calling it morally imperative for them to pass the a but progresses have reirated they will notote fo the bill. anernie sders urgedoto vogainst the infrastcture agreement until t othereal isreached. >> my fear is if a dual agreement arch and we jt passedhe reconciliatio ll, th levere we have in the nateo pass the recoiliati billill be laely ne. what we have, ok,ou guys want toasshe infstructure
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deal, i want to pas that, if you want to pass that, you have to deal with reconciliation. you can't keep just slow walking this thing. >> meanwhile, senators joe manchin and kyrsten sinema went to the white house yesterday. both senators said the $3.5 trillion reconciliation package is too long and must be trimmed to win support. a growing number of house democrats are vcing concerns about senatorsinema. resources telling nbc news that during a closed-door caucus meeting, congressman ro khanna of cifornia stood to say that the house does not have a two senator problem, but a one setor problem. we have one senator from a sta that president biden carried, from a state that the her colleague is 100% on board. this senatorefuses to even give a number.
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here is my question said khan na when is the democratic party going to tell the president it's time to get in line. joining me now from punchbowl news, anna palmer, jonathan lemire. and nbc contributor of the confidence katty kay with us. good morning to you all. anna, let me start with you. this vote is supposed to be tomoow on the infrastructure deal. this dea may or may not pass. there's a lot of wk to do before we get there but i that letter a couple days ago, ncy pelosi said to her colleagues, we're not going to tie these t together. we just can't do it. let's dealith the infrastructure then we'llo to the reconciliation. where does that leave them? >> nancy is in a tough place
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here, when it comes to progressives. so far, they're holding firm, we have several progressives in punchbowl news saying they are not going to move forward with the infrastructure. and nancy pelosi, this is going to be a true test for her, so far, she's having much progress with the bill. i do think infrastructure ultimately happens but doubtful it helps this week. >> what is speaker pelosi going to say to ro khanna, to bernie sanders, and the progressive wing of her party who have held the line and said these two things cannot be separate? what are those conversations like? >> i think it's really difficult. the progressives want to have some assurance that they want to get a number. at least a top-line number. and when they talked about it yesterday, they wouldn't even say they had a top-line number.
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yes, we're going to get this done what is the top line number going to look like, what is going to be included in there. she hasn't been in there so far because the senators manchin and sinema have refused to do it. they've put her in a tough position. >> jonathan lemire, i'm curious, i understand in terms of negotiations but is president biden and nancy pelosi discussing the progressives and democrats as a whole, the consequences of not getting anything done? what has been the issue with communicating that? >> there's growing frustration among democrats as to how the white house has been messaging and communicating its concerns to lawmakers in trying to bridge these divides, mika. white house officials have been telling me there's a confidence here that this will get done but it's impossible to imagine, they say, democrats submarining the agenda. the agenda popular with the
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public that would cripple their chances in the midterms next year and would potentially damage the biden presidency in the first year. this is a window to get things done but there's a sense that the president is not doing enough pushing, he's listening, focusing on the senate in particular. we had congresswoman debbie dingell on in the last hour who voiced real frustration that members of the house aren't being consulted here. moderate and progressive members alike, in terms of what they need to see out of this package to get them paired together and to get this agenda put in place. we know the president has cancelled his trip to chicago today. and that goes to show there's a sense of growing urgency to get this done. the phones work on air force one. he certainly could be lobbying members from the skies to this vaccine event in illinois. instead, they're choosing to have him here at the white house face-to-face making this pitch because this is an agenda
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perhaps not too big to fail but it's too important to fail. andf this goes down in defeat, it's going to be crippling to all of them. >> jim, the president saying he's not going to beg, he's not going to fce people. at the same time, i'll ask you the same question. the consequences o not moving forward on these two key pieces of legislation, areemocrats aware of that? are they talking aboutthat? and what are they saying biden needs to do to get this over the line? >> they're hyper aware of it and i think congresswoman dingell said earlier they're unified in this idea if they get nothing it would be catastrophic to the democratic party. the problem is what bernie sanders said in that clip in the top of the show. he's not wrong. the minute they agree to the infrastructure bill and that gets signed into law. they lose all of their leverage on the $3.5 trillion or whatever
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it shrinks. that's the game of chicken. and what nancy pelosi is saying, trust me, i, nancy pelosi, i'll give us the leverage. and trust me, we'll get joe biden behind us to get the package that you'll be happy with at the end of the day. progressives are saying i don't trust you. because i look at how much power manchin and sinema have when you have a 50/50 senate. there might not be many moderates left in america but the two in the senate are leading the deal. that's what has progressives frustrated. it probably done get done this week. once is gets punched into next week, who knows what will happen. i work under the feeling that the infrastructure betting anything at $3.5 trillion or half of that is extremely difficult. none of us know how it's going to play out. the joe biden saying he's not
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going to beg. you're the president, you have to beg. clearly, they're not listening. he needs a price tag and none of us on this show right now know what that price tag is because manchin and sinema won't say. and the president has to intervene and tell people this is what the package ultimately will look like. trust me, we'll get it done, infrastructure done, and we'll move on to the big spending components parts of it. still ahead, the u.s. government will run out of money by october 18th. that's according to treasury secretary janet yellen who says that the default will be catastrophic to the country. so what's the plan to stop it from happening? you're watching "morning joe. we'll be right back. the best things america makes are the things america makes out here. the history she writes in her clear blue skies. the legends she births on home town fields. and the future she promises. when we made grand wagoneer,
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♪♪ another the senate, mority leader mch mcconnell is publicly telling democrats they
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need to raise the debt ceiling but he' blocked yet another pathway for them to do so. yesterday, majority leader chuck schumer passed unanimous consent to bypass the threshold. schumer is looking to set up a simple majority hold to allow democrats to suspend the debt limit by themselves b mcconnell rejected. >> docrats will not get bipartisan help borrowing money so they can iediately blow historic sums on a partisan taxing and spending spree. democrat leader knew this request would fail. there is no chance, no chance, the republican conference will go out of our way to help democrats conserve theirtime. and energy. so they can resume ramming through partisan socialism, as fast as possible. >> further complicating the process, the white house says president biden opposes changing
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the senate rules to raise the debt ceiling. democrats have few options left agency the deadline for default approaches but they so far have ruled out using reconciliation schumer argues the process would take too long. and that they don't have enough time. >> we're not asking them to ve yes. if repubcans want to vote to not pay t debts they helped incu they can all vote no. we're just asking republicans get out of the way. get out of e way, when you -- when you are risking the fl faith and credit of the unid states to play nasty political game. we can bring this to a resolution today. using the drawn-out and convoluted reconciliation process is far too risky. far too risky. >> so, katy, the cliff here is abouthree weeks away, and
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treasury secretary janet yellen yesterday warned of catastrophic consequences of losing full faith and credit of the united states history. if the senate doesn't figure this out so especiay what mitch mcconnell and republicans are saying, yes, you have to raise the debt ceiling, no, we're going to block you and furthermore, we'll block the paths to get you there. >> and democrats are the only party left doing this because they don't want the votes to haunt them. they have pointed out in the past they have helped in this situation and voted to raise the debt ceiling when necessary to do so. i thought yellen's timing yesterday was interesting and the word she chose. a lot of americans are rejoicing in the fact that the economy mass rebounded as quickly as it has out of the pandemic. but yellen left no doubt if america defaults on its debt. you have the possibility of a stock market crashing.
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a global stock market crash. and a real possible recession in the country. we just got out of a brutal two years. america cannot afford pretty political. and now democrats what democrats have to try to is try to pivot this back on republicans. in the past, they have made the calculation that republicans would be blamed if the debt ceiling is not raised. they need to do that benefit. janet yellen's position yesterday was a direct consequence of that with the public consequences that republicans are not going to help and we're going to leave to you handle this one. >> anna, this is a real deadline with huge consequences if the senate can't figure this out. what is left for chuck schumer. he's not getting any help from republicans. the president says i don't want
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you to change the rules and use reconciliation. what options are left open to schumer? >> the house is expected to take up a debt limit bill this week. they're going to try to pass that, unclear if pelosi has the votes there. but democrats are going to make the intellectual argument that mitch mcconnell is going to help them out. he's not going to help them out. i don't understand why we're going through this process. as he said, three weeks from the deadline happening this is a big issue and they're probably going to have to use reconciliation. there's not a lot of other maneuvers to do. the politics are ongoing but this is going tbe an issue for schumer to figure out and there is just no sense that mitch mcconnell is going to help them out. coming up, new revelations from a former trump insider. what one time press secretary stephanie grisham said she saw behind the scenes with vladimir putin. "morning joe" is coming right back.
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♪♪
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now, to the news about the latest information from the trump esiden. stephanie grisham, president donald trump's third press secretary and chief of staff to foer first lady melania trump is out with a new book nex week that according to "the washington post" aeges a litany of misdeeds by the 45th present from ogling a young female staffer, to orchestrating lies to the public. and attempting to ban the news media from the white house compound. the book entitled "i'll take your questions now" also provides rare look between the interaction between trump and russian president vladimir putin. in pages obtained by nbc news, grham provides a firstan count of an exchange between the two at the g-20 summit in 2019 writing in quote, wh all the talk of sanctions against russia for interfering in the
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2016 election and for various human rights abuses, trump told putin, okay, i'm going to act a little tougher with you for a few minutes, but it's for the cameras and after they leave, we'll talk, you understand. putin responded to trump's comment. the former first lady and trump have responded to the book accusing grisham being a poor employee who is now seeking to make money at their expense, katty kay, that sounds like donald trump, and this book sounds a lot about what was going on inside the white house at the time but the frustration i think a lot of us feel a lot of these people were seeing these things play out in realtime but waited until after to write a book. >> i mean, the trump administration was full of
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people who could have called out the president in realtime, in instances like this one, for ars of national security, frankly, where he treated putin in one way andretended he was treating him in another way. and they failed to do so. this was not an administration full of courage. and now it's stephanie grisham making money off a book when it's too late to have an impact to say he said one thing when actually meaning another thing. it would have been much more courageous of her, obviously not just more courageous for her, but for the state of the country and health of the country for her to have called this out in realti. she was in a position to doo in a position close to th first lady at the time. she could have done this much earlier. >> jonathan lemire, take a step back and talk about stephanie grisham, you could forget that
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she was press secretary for eightonths because she never gave a formal briefing. this i someone who dipped into the orbit or came out and tri to get a glow off of it or write a book, she was there through januar 6th, she saw all of it, she participated in all of it. what do you make of the book, why she doing it and some of the content of the book, if you believe it? >> yeah, i think grisham during the campaign she was known as a press rangeler mean a staffer who would stay with the press corps, myself included as we went city to city, rally to rally, she was there every single day. she saw every single speech. once donald trump was elected she moved over to the first lady's office at times and became very loyal to the first lady trump and that's why they overreacted to the book because it's not a flattering portrayal of the former first lady.
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and then moved over as press secretary as you said, never took a single question, never held a formal briefing and then eventually moved back to the first lady's office. a lot of these books written about the trump era are certainly about salvaging. and to get paid, there's that, too. and reflective of concerns about future employment history being so closely aligned to the trump team. and for some, it's perhaps a guilty conscious. and maybe that's what we're seeing at play here. i should note two things, that putin moment that she describes in the book. i was at that summit, he mockingly waved his finger at putin and saying don't interfere with our elections. it was a joke. that came behind as tough and even know behind the scenes he was friendlier with the russian counterpart.
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in the book i find extraordinary, there was a trump aide in the white house who was designated music man who would play music from "cats" when it was meant to calm him down. coming up, a sweeping new project, chronicles, ordinary people during extraordinary circumstances. that conversation is next on "morning joe." oe."
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♪♪ our next request has been featured in forbes magazine world's 100 most powerful women, fortune's most powerful women and "times" most influential people in the world. that's a lot former chief
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executive officer and chairman, chairwoman of pepsico joins us now. hi, good to see you. a new memoir entitled "my life in full, work, family and future." it's so good to see you again. i love that you wrote this book. your career is truly historic. first, first, first, including first immigrant and woman to run a fortune 50 company. so you have ohm amazing stories here. and i want to get to moving forward in terms of, you know, where women stand in terms of equality. but i want to take us bk to when you first came to america, i believe it was to come to school, to go to yale. >> uh-huh. >> and the immense stress that you write about and even hunger that you experienced. you can take us back to that day? >> sure. mika, first, it's wonderful to see you again aer lg time.
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i'm glad everything is good. thank you for having me on the show. i came to the united states, in 1978, a long, long time ago. when i landed at yale, this is my first trip out of india. and i knew nothing. i didn't know how to shop. i didn't know how to walk into a self-serve grocery store and pick up items. i didn't even know what yogurt meant, i was looking for curds which is what we called yogurt. my first days inyale, i was desperately lonely, i was angry. i didn't know what toeat. i bought a bag of chips i crushed a tomato on chips and until i can see other people and ask them how i should shop and exist. those arexisting dark times but it lasted one day. day two, aood samaritan came by and said let me teach you how
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to eat and live here. because i was a vegetarian. i still am. and environment for vegetarian is very different then than it is today. >> that's such an incredible story. and really i can sort of see you there. in that stressful -- it's stressful enough to start yale. let alone not to do like basic ings to live. but tell us what got you through, the early part of your career. did you have aspirations to run, you know, a company like psico? or what were your thoughts early on, in terms of planning out what you wanted to do, why you were getting your education. >> my husband and i both decided all that we were willing to do to stay hapily married and keep our jobs and do well in the jobs because we believed that the united states had given us a chance to come to this country, to work in the wonderful
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corporate environment. and we owe the country a duty of care. so both of us worked our jobs responsibly. we tried to do over and above what the job required. and we never thought about -- i never thought about being a ceo. i didn't even know what that was. i just focused on the job i had. then if i got a i took on the next one with fear and intrepidation, and again tried to do as wl as the next job. it's only one rung at a time. i never looked at the ladder and said i know where it's going, let me aim for that. i always believed if i focused on the big job if i kne what it was, i would be so obsessed with that i'd lose sight of the job i had to do. so it was a bit by bit by bit move up the corporate ladder. >> i love the story that actual you you told me what you said to me for one of my books what your
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mother said to you to be ceo of pepsico, and it was like take the crown off. in a lot of ways you had say line of separation between your family life and who you were inside your home, versus your work life, perhaps, based on that conversation with your mom? >> i think when she told me to live the crown in the garage, she was right. you know, i shouldn't bring any crown home. i've never done it. that one moment, she reminded me again, even if you're thinking about it, don't do that, because it's not going to be acknowledged at home. i think in writing the book, one thing that's become very apparent is that, in every marriage, in every family, both the husband sand wife should leave the crown in the garage. i think once you come into the home as parents, the responsibility to the family, and it doesn't mean that one person is more equal than the other and gets to strut around with the crown. so that's a big lesson we both took away. and we've had a marriage that's
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been extremely equal. he helps out as much as, you know, any man ever does which is unbelievable, does dishes, does the cooking. and we've been married for more than 40 years. it's been a great partnership. >> i love that. i love that for you. that's wonderful. >> as a woman -- former woman ceo, you're now sort of looking at the landscape and seeing where work still needs to be done. where are we in terms of getting an equal or comparable number of women in the top tiers of major companies, so that the thinking can change, at the very top? >> well, youook at it as half full or half empty. >> right. >> when i came to pepsico in '94, there were no women ceos. in 2006, when i became ceo, there were, i think, ten women ceos. in 2021, there are 41 women ceos. we can say that we've gone from
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zero to 41 in 27 years. or you can say, oh, my god, we're only at 9% of the fortune 5 so run by women ceos. and this is, you know, a bit jarringecause women are getting more collegedegrees, all of the top grades. th're graduating from engineering schools and s.t.e.m. disciplines in record numbers, where have all of the women gone? where have all of the incredibly bright people hungry for economic first, where hav they gone? that's where my rearch went when i started to write the book. it's very clear, they entered the workforce, but in the second and third levels of the mpany, they've left because they couldn'talance the work. the biological clock and work were in total conflict. still haven't built enough to
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build a family. and, mika, i honestly believe in the whole of power controlled mostly by men, we have to bring into the center of the conversationhe discussion about family and women. beuse future of work depends women being employed in large numbers either in office jobs or even in the front line. we can make it without the care givers and all of e supporting staff that make our life possible. and if we don't bring the discussion of family and women into the center of future of work, i think we're going to have a labor shortage, and a talent shortage, of a kind we've never seen. >> the new book is "my life in full: work, family and our future." former pepsico ceo indra nooyi and my friend. it's so good to see you. thank you so much for writing this book. this is going to be incredibly helpful. and we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."
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♪♪ 48 past the hour. a live look at new york city. we have a development this morning in the political fight over mask mandates for florida schools. last week, nbc news reported the biden administration began compensating educators whose pay was being docked for defying the governor's band on school mask mandates. an initial sum of $148,000 was
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awarded to county school board members who voted this summer to require students wear masks. now broward county public schools has received more than $420,000 from the u.s. department of education's project safe program to make up for the pay cuts imposed by the state. we will be following that story. harvard business school announced all first year and some second year graduate students will temporarily shift to online remote learning after a recent surge in covid-19 cases driven by the delta variant. the move will past through next sunday. the business school will also begin testing all students three times a week, regardless of their vaccination status. and dozens of school bus drivers have died due to the coronavirus contributing to a nationwide shortage.
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"usa today" reports that at least 12 school bus workers in georgia alone have died of covid, since the beginning of the school year. while seven bus workers in florida have died since july. an estimated 500,000 school bus on a given day. willie. >> speaking of schools, mika, pfizer now has submitted new data to the fda about its vaccine for children ages 5 to 11. nbc's gabe gutierrez has more. >> reporter: it's a crucial step towards getting younger kids vaccinated, pfizer submitting data to the fda on covid shots for 5 to 11-year-olds, saying smaller doses produced antibody responses that were comparable to those seen in older people. >> as long as the fda and other powers that be approve it, i'm ready to go. >> reporter: when could emergency use authorization come? dr. anthony fauci says as early as late october.
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>> what we don't want in patients to get in the way of collecting the appropriate and solid data to make a scientifically sound decision. >> craig asked pfizer's ceo about even younger kids. >> how soon after that do we believe that children under the age of 5 will be able to get a shot? >> the studies are ongoing, craig, before the end of the year. >> but some parents are hesitant. >> if the fda approves it, i have to see what they're basing it on. >> reporter: there's growing tension over vaccine mandates. vaccinationsoverall have jumped 45% since mandates launched in july. now every employee in th tion'sargest schoo system must be vcinated to continue in their role. >> for anyone who has not gotten a dose by friday at 5:00 p.m., we're going to then assume you're not coming to work monday morning as a vaccinated employee, and weill immediately find a substitute. >> reporter: the whiteouse
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says more than 400,000 americans have gotten booster shots since friday, and 1 million have scheduled appointments. >> we will continue to evaluate data as it becomes available in realtime and with urgency, and update our recommendations to make sure that all of those at risk have the protection they need. >> nbc's gabe gutierrez reporting there. joining us now pulitzer prize staff writer for "the washington post," eli saz low. he's author of the new book titled "voices from the pandemic: americans tell their stories of crisis, courage, and resilience." it's good to see you. just to remind people, this is based on an award winning series of articles you wrote during the pandemic, and these interviews for the book take place over the course of a year from january 2020 to january of this year, and they are everyday folks, everyday people. many of them heroes in hospitals. some people running grocery stores in new orleans, for example, so what was the thread
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through all these people you interviewed and that you highlight in the book? >> yeah, i mean, i think in so many ways this experience for all of us has been almost like existentially lonely, you know, we're isolated into our own bubbles, into our own pods, into our own ideological bunkers. this book was an attempt to reach beyond that, not just about the political dysfunction or the systemic failures that have defined so much of this pandemic, but to hear about the humanity, the people whose lives were upended by this crisis, and what they were doing about it. and you know, for me, hearing about that often sort of restored my faith in people's resilience and ability to persevere, even through massive amounts of trauma. because often these people were talking to me as that trauma was ongoing. >> i mentioned the man in the lower ninth ward of new orleans who runs a grocery store. tell us a little bit about his story and what he did to step up for his community. >> yeah, so burr nell collin
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runs the only fresh grocery store in the ninth ward. people come in every day, they get the same things. once the pandemic started in new orleans and in so many other places, many of his customers were getting laid off. they worked in the big hotels downtown, tourists weren't coming. they lost their jobs, and these were people with very little, you know, income or they had no savings, and they suddenly did not have enough money to buy food. so peoplbegan coming in to burnell's store and asking if they could get food on credit. he began to keep a ledger, even though he himself had very thin margins and was a month behind for the mortgage on the store. he start giving people food for free writing it down, $7.82 this person owes. $15 this person owes. $40 this person owes and over time in those first f weeks burnell had giv out thousands of dollars of free food breaking himself financially and traj
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tragically had to cross names off because those customers that owed him money had diedn this ple that was brutally rvaged by coronavirus. >> we look athe almost 700,000 people who have died during this pandemic, and it becomes a big scary number. in the opening story, you talk to a man named tony sizemore. quote, she's dead and i'm quarantined. that's how the story ends. i keep going back over it in loops tryg to find a way to sweeten it, but nhing changes the facts. i wasn't there with her at the end. i didn't even get to say good-bye. from normal life to this hell in a week. that's how long it took. i barely even heard of this damned virus until a few days ago. how am i spoized to make sense of that? >> his is a story reflected in
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so many families that happened in many cases almost overnight. >> to think about that for me, birdie was the first victim of coronavirus in indiana, and now that state has lost one in 450 residents to this virus. this book is an oral history. it's people telling their stories, but obviously the history piece remains a little aspirational. this is all of our presents. we're still living through it, and the numbers in terms of just deaths are staggering, not to mention the number of people whose lives have been economically upended, who have lost their homes, people who will lose their homes. sometimes i think it's important instead of getting numbed by the scale to think about just one person, just birdie shelton and the trauma that echoed through that family and continues to echo through that family. they still haven't been able to have a service for her a year and a half later because they can't get that many people together. they don't feel comfortable in a place where people aren't getting vaccinated, and it's
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been 18 months. >> and you think about the nurses and the doctors who have spent hours and hours and days and weeks and months treating people like birdie. you have this story from sal, the shift leader of a nursing team in detroit, saying, quote, this virus went from being nothing but a rumor a month ago to taking over our whole emergency room. we are under staffed. we're running out of masks and protective gear. we have so many nurses out sick with the virus. and we haven't replaced any of them. who wants to come to work here right now. at best it's going to be a nightmare, at worst it's a death sentence. sadly that story still can be told today in some icus and emergency rooms in certain parts of this country. >> you're exactly right. the story is still being told today. one of the things that's really remarkable about sal and so many of those workers on the front lines is not only their ability to endure this for so long, but the empathy that that requires. i mean, especially when sometimes the people that you
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treat don't want treatment, don't believe in the virus that you're treating them for. i think it's really remarkable that so far down the road from people stepping outside and cheering every night at 7:00 p.m., so many of these nurses, respiratory therapists, they continue to go to work and continue to do the best they can to save as many lives as they possibly can. >> still to this day, eli, and the last aspect of this is resilience, talk about how you fram that and how the struggle continues really. we're dealing with icu space even today, and people not getting the care tt they need. it's got to be -- it's got to weigh so heavily on these heroes. >> well, there are so many things to be angry and frustrated about, right? i think especially right now we're also so divided, but for me where the hope came in in reporting is once you get somebody on the phone and in many cases i was on the phone for hours and hours with these
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people, very possible to hear somebody's story and to empathize with both the landlord, the small landlord who's running out of money and nobody's paying them and has to do something about it, and the also the person that's being evicted or the respiratory therapist who going to be intubating their sixth patient of the day and also the person who previously denied the istence of the virus but is now scared and terrify ed and is on the other end and abo to be intubated. so much of this is trying to think outside of ourselves and what people are going through in this country right now, and what they're going through is horrifying. >> the new book is "voices from the pandemic: americans tell their stories of crisis, courage and resilience" pulitzer prize winning staff writer for "the washington post" eli saslow, thank you so much for being on this morning. that does it for us this moing, jose diaballdicks
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