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tv   Stephanie Ruhle Reports  MSNBC  September 23, 2021 6:00am-7:00am PDT

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a lot of work ahead of them over the next few weeks. >> they certainly do with real deadlines looming. i think we will learn a lot more today about the special envoy to haiti who resigned because of the biden administration's policy towards that country in light of the crises there as well. >> that is the issue, the crisis ongoing at the southern border obviously one of the greatest challenges for the biden administration. thanks so much for being with us this morning. we greatly appreciate it. garrett haake picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ hi there, i'm garrett haake in for stephanie ruhle, it's thursday, september 23rd. we start in washington where democrats have a mess on their hands and no clear way to clean it up. on wednesday president biden met with nearly two dozen house and senate democrats over the course of four hours. the goal, to find some way to keep his $4 trillion domestic agenda on track. the democrats immediate problem
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is one they themselves created. speaker pelosi made a deal with moderates she would hold a vote on the president's infrastructure bill by this coming monday. the hope was that the bigger $3.5 trillion bill would be done at the same time, something progressives say has to happen so that they can both vote for both bills at the same time. but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. so that leaves democratic leaders with basically three ways to go here, they can try to pass the infrastructure bill on monday and risk angry progressives blocking it, they can delay the vote and break their promise to the moderates or they can grit their teeth and work like hell to get that reconciliation bill or something close enough to a deal to please progressives done by monday. i want to bring in monica alba at the white house, my colleague sahil kapur on capitol hill, jeff mason reuters white house correspondent and claire mccaskill who served 12 years as a democratic senator from missouri. sahil, i just laid out those three pockets for monday, based on all of our reporting what do you think is the most likely
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outcome? >> reporter: garrett, they look likely to attempt number three, but i think number one is the most likely outcome. they're going to proceed with that vote and as things stand it does not have the support it needs to pass. they have said there are dozens of democrats, as many as 40 or 50 ready to tank it. they are at least in the teens and the fact that house republican leadership is whipping their members to vote no strengthens jayapal's hand to tank this bill. at the heart of this, this is a bit of mistrust, a disconnect between the centrists and the progressives. centrists got language in the rule saying the house shall vote on the 27th, but progressives are worried if that infrastructure bill passes that the centrists will have no use for for that bigger multi-trillion dollar package and that is their top priority at this moment. they're willing to stop infrastructure. in their view this was a package deal, they were only going to
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support the surface transportation bill while the other one was moving side-by-side. the centrists said we never agreed to that and never wanted to link them. they will have to regroup after that vote and figure this out. >> we will come back to the trust deficit, but, monica, can you take us behind the scenes at yesterday's meeting at the white house. so many lawmakers were anxious to see joe biden jump into the fray here, he has done so. what role will he play going forward? >> reporter: the phrase from here was that the president was ready to roll up his sleeves and dive in over the span of these multiple meetings. the white house in a public readout called them very candid and productive conversations where they wanted to indicate that progress was made, but the subtlety there and the subtext that's important is that no solutions were reached. it's not like they came out of these meetings knowing which path forward they were going to take. it was more like according to white house officials the president told lawmakers you need to come up with a plan, come back to me on it, find a number that you're comfortable
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with in terms of the $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation bill and then we will continue the conversation. so yesterday was sort of the beginning of the maybe end of this process. that's how the white house is viewing it and behind the scenes they are admitting that obviously there need to be more meetings starting as early as today. we know staff level meetings continue, those are very normal and expected ahead of course monday and what may happen with those votes, but the president i'm told may also again meet with lawmakers today here at the white house. so that will be very notable to see which conversations continue face-to-face. of course, these are happening behind closed doors, but this is the most urgent and personal outreach that we have seen this president make to lawmakers during the entirety of his administration. the fact that this spanned almost five hours and we're told by lawmakers who were in those meetings and by white house officials that the president was in a vintage joe biden mood, that he was talking with everybody, trying to leverage his more than 36 years of
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experience in the senate and those close personal relationships, but that there was a level of frustration on his part because he wants to see something get done and the overarching message from yesterday was we need to come together to figure out a way to do that and they are not at that place yet, garrett. >> yeah, he needs to see something get done, these are really the only games in town for domestic policy for this president right now. senator mccaskill, i want to talk about how you see this playing out. congresswoman jayapal who leads the progressive caucus was on "morning joe" explaining her position as it relates to that monday vote. listen to this. >> nothing is sacred about monday at all. let's let the negotiations continue, let's get this done, let's deliver everything to the president's desk and i think we will then be able to say to the country government worked for you. >> jayapal is a good politician, she knows more negotiation isn't going to lead to a bigger bill, but sahil alluded to this, the trust deficit, this feeling like
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if everybody moves together both of these things can still pass but if one goes before the other the whole operation falls apart. how do you read the progressives and the way they're trying to handle the strategy there? >> well, they're trying to use whatever leverage they have. i have a lot of trust, speaking of trust, i have a lot of trust that nancy pelosi can land this plane. she is the person who promised the moderates a vote by monday and promised to link up the two packages. but at the end of the day i don't think the progressives want it hung around their neck that they killed all of it. >> right. >> and this is not bernie sanders or the progressive caucus' package, this is joe biden's package. this is the candidate that won the democratic nomination and i think most people would say he did not win the nomination from the left, he won it from the middle. so i do think -- here is what i think is going to happen at the end of the day, garrett, i think
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they're going to pass a reconciliation bill that's smaller than 3.5, i think they're going to pass the infrastructure bill, i think they're going to fund the government and i don't think the government is going to default, but in the process it looks awful and stupid to america and the republicans are banking on the fact that the democrats are going to take more of the blame than they are because they're in charge and it looks like a bunch of idiots running around right now. >> and it's only, as monica put it, the beginning of the maybe end. so we have more months of it to go potentially. jeff mason, i'm pretty sure president biden doesn't want to see this infrastructure bill that he has invested so much of his own personal capital in get voted down by democrats. how do you think he wants to see this monday cliff resolved? >> well, you're absolutely right, he certainly does not want to see that voted down by democrats and i think that's kind of the key issue here is that his agenda right now is relying on his own party and his own party has the power to get it through, but there are these
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differences between the progressives and the moderates that they now have to work out. i think -- i don't know exactly what he hopes will happen on monday other than i think he will be working the phones this weekend, i think there will be more meetings in the coming days and as jen psaki said at the white house briefing yesterday he realizes now he has to be more involved and it's a hands-on approach and as monica rightly said vintage joe biden is just exactly what the white house needs right now in order to get this over the finish line if they're going to. >> vintage joe biden will have to take on vintage joe manchin at some point, sahil. he is the guy who has been most vocal about being uncomfortable with the price tag on this spending bill. are we learning anything more about what he would be willing to take? apparently the president said to him yesterday according to manchin find a number you're comfortable with. senator mccaskill said it won't be $3.5 trillion, i don't think any of us think it's going to be $3.5 trillion what do we know about what that number is
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ultimately going to be for joe manchin? >> the number is definitely going down, the question is where is that number coming down to. that point you made, that quote from president biden telling joe manchin find a number you're comfortable with, that is perhaps the most revealing thing that came out of the meetings. one reason that democrats are in a holding pattern with that $3.5 trillion number is they don't know where the sent tests stand. manchin has not stated a number or his price. senator kyrsten sinema said she's uncomfortable with $3.5 trillion. we have asked his and her office where they would be comfortable with and they have not said. this is president biden going to manchin and says tell me what can get you to yes and we will get to you yes. there are house centrists uncomfortable with the $3.5 trillion price tag. there are many reasons it's going to have to change, the request he is where it comes down to and now president biden along with speaker pelosi and senator schumer will have to figure this out because as you and i have discussed, garrett, they're going to come up with a package that can pass the house and senate ahead of time. that is another one of the commitments that the speaker
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made to the centrists. i will end with this, congressman peter defazio who is the transportation committee chairman in the house says that the speaker is aggressively working the phones, he says his phone rings at all hours of the night including late at night when he's working on his reconciliation package. he also said this could be speaker pelosi's toughest challenge, tougher than that task a decade ago when she had to get the affordable care act over the finish line. she is in legacy mode now trying to rewrite the safety net, the social contract for potentially generations to come. >> senator mccaskill, i will give you the last word. the goal was to finish all of this in the fall. could you imagine a scenario in which we are sitting around on christmas eve with one giant policy cliff of trying to finish this at the end of this year much delayed like the aca process was? >> yeah, it may happen. i mean, you know, this is devolved into one of these typical how long is it going to take, how close to midnight will
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we be? i think i want to make -- i want to make this point about joe manchin, joe manchin is going to have to say what he's for and what he's against. >> yes. >> i mean, within the caucus i can tell you authoritatively his colleagues are getting frustrated at all of his tv appearances where he just uses these, you know, kind of generalizations. it's too much, i think people should have to work more, blah, blah. he's going to have to come down on policies he won't support and policies he will support, and i think that pressure is going to build on him over the next 48 hours. >> as a reporter who has been trying to get joe manchin to say what he will and will not support for weeks now, it is comforting to me that even his own colleagues don't know. senator mcmass kill, sahil, monica, jeff, thank you all. still ahead, crisis at the border. after days of harrowing images of haitian migrants in texas what we know about the future for those allowed to seek asylum and how the administration plans to handle even more migrants
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moving across central america. overnight the overnight approval the fda gives the go ahead for some americans to get a vaccine booster. who can get another shot and when? a vaccine boosr.te who can get another shot and when white and from mochaccinos to merlot, your smile will always be brilliant. crest 3d white brilliance. 100% stain removal, 24 hour stain resistance to lock in your whitest smile. crest. the #1 toothpaste brand in america. ♪ ♪ i know the best coffee spot in town. i can make a rustic cabin feel modern. i am a guidebook for guests. i can make an indoorsy person, outdoorsy. i give families a home, not just a place to stay.
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counterproductive decision to deport thousands of haitian refugees. this is a biden appointee. this comes a day after nbc news confirmed that thousands of haitian migrants are being released on parole in the u.s. and will be allowed to seek asylum. while dhs officials say they're tracking more haitian mike grants making the trek through central america. texas governor greg abbott has sent a wall of calls to try to deter new crossings. last night a new nbc report revealed that dhs is searching for contractors to run a migrant detention center at guantanamo bay. in a statement to nbc news dhs denied the center would hold haitian migrants stopped at the texas border. ken dilanian is here for more on that story and i think we will have morgan chesky on the ground -- morgan, good, i'm glad we have you here. morgan, start with what's happening on the ground with border patrol agents dispersing
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some of these migrants. what's the situation in del rio? >> reporter: it is certainly a 24/7 mission and this is where upwards of 15,000 migrants crossed starting more than a week ago today, this is the crossing on the rio grande river, joe, be careful standing on the edge of this dam, the water shallow behind me, they were able to come across for four to five days before their numbers peaked at around 15,000 on saturday and i want to walk this direction here because, garrett, you mentioned that wall of state trooper vehicles, watch your head here, joe, walk under the tape, you can see as we dan in this direction these are a few of the texas state troopers, hundreds of cruisers trying to deter migrants from coming this way. dps tells me this morning that they have information that leads them to believe upwards of 600 migrants are in northern mexico making their way just across the river here. they're concerned not so much the border area here, this is
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obviously pretty secure, but they're more worried about the gaps that could be created by surging so many resources here and i want you to hear what one trooper told me yesterday. take a listen. >> we can only be in an area, we can't be everywhere along the border, there's so much board for cover. we have the resources in place but we're also working with the texas military department as well they're helping us as well with their national guard, but like we mentioned there's so much area to cover along the border and the fact that border patrol is stretched thin we are having to fill those gaps and deter some of that activity taking place right now. >> reporter: so let's talk about that camp that's just about a quarter mile from where i'm standing. dhs saying the numbers now are 5,000, that's the lowest it's been in the last week, we're seeing continued buses go in and out, taking folks to other processing centers right now. we do know frustration is rising as they know deportation is a real threat in the coming days.
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certainly a lot of uncertainty here on this part of the border. garrett? >> morgan, the thing that strikes me when i look at that wall of cars is most of these folks aren't sneaking in, they're walking across and trying to apply for asylum. what is the fate for migrants who do apply for asylum, particularly these haitian migrants that make up the majority in del rio. how are they being treated under u.s. asylum laws? >> reporter: dhs has said that not everyone will be deported, they are focusing dpor-wise on single haitian adults, families who do not claim asylum, but any unaccompanied child or family claiming asylum will be allowed to stay in the u.s. and that appears to be the case. i met a 25-year-old haitian man and his pregnant wife the other day, they were at a nearby shelter where they were going to go on a bus and go to houston to be processed. his wife expecting their first child here in a few months. he has family in brooklyn and they were hoping after being processed to wait with family up there.
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of course, for so many of those folks making their asylum claims they have 60 days to report to an i.c.e. office, an immigration office and that's when they will get that court date that will begin this long asylum case proceeding that in some cases could take years. >> ken, striking headline on your piece last night about the possible use of guantanamo bay here. the biden administration now denying that the detention facility at gitmo has anything to do with the border crisis. walk me through what we know at this point. >> based on what dhs is saying right now it appears that this might have been an unfortunate coincidence that on friday they issued procurement documents seeking what they now say is a renewal of the contract for a firm to run and operate this little-known migrant detention center on guantanamo bay. i was just down there covering the trial of the 9/11 defendants and i didn't hear or see anything about this dhs facility, but apparently it's been running for years
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occasionally haitians or cubans are picked up on the high seas by the coast guard and taken there. but of course the language in these procurement documents really got our attention because, for example, it required that the contractor have some guards that speak haitian creole and spanish, it required a surge capacity for up to 400 people, required them to be able to put tents and bring down guards at a moment's notice and it came out on friday. so it raised the question of whether there was any connection between this procurement and what's going on with haitians at the southern border. as of now dhs is saying no connection, purely a coincidence, garrett. >> so to be super clear nobody is going from del rio, texas, to guantanamo bay, right? >> that is what dhs is saying, they will not do it, have not done it and will not do it. >> thank you morgan and ken both for your excellent reporting on this story. also this morning we're watching for updates in the trial of singer r. kelly where the jury could receive the case as early as this morning once the prosecution rests its closing arguments. of the disgraced performer has
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long faced allegations of serial sexual abuse and is being tried for racketeering and sex trafficking charges in a brooklyn federal court. in its closing argument to the jury the prosecution said kelly, quote, used lies, manipulation and physical abuse to dominate his victims. we will bring you any update as soon as we get it. and coming up, the fda gives the green light for millions to get boosters but when could we actually see shots in arms? that's next. ut when could we actually see shots in arms that's next. tide pods ultra oxi one ups the cleaning power of liquid. can it one up whatever they're doing? for sure. seriously? one up the power of liquid, one up the toughest stains. any further questions? uh uh! one up the power of liquid with tide pods ultra oxi.
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the fda has authorized a third dose of pfizer's covid vaccine for emergency use in people 65 and older. the announcement making millions of americans immediately eligible to get a third shot, but it does not apply to those who got the moderna or johnson & johnson vaccines. the fda signed off on boosters for people 18 and older at risk for getting severe illness. today the cdc could release their guidance on who should get a third shot. let's go to al long barber on the ground in iowa, we also have antonia hilton outside nashville. i want to start with dr. a
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schaffner. walk us through the basics of this announcement from the fda. the question that viewers who fall into that qualifying category have first which is how soon can they go get that third shot? >> well, let's wait until the end of the day today because as you say, garrett, cdc's advisory committee on immunization practices will be issuing its recommendations exactly how this authorization should be implemented and it is very, very broad from the fda and so we'll see what the cdc says. but actually on the west coast this evening some people could be lining up to get their boosters already. >> there's language in here that was interesting to me not just about people who are older than 65 or at severe risk of complications, but also this language about people who are in frequent institutional or occupational exposure to the covid virus. could this mean anybody from someone who works at a grocery
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store to members of congress that i cover in my other job? i mean, that feels incredibly broad and the opportunity for people to self-identify as someone who has, you know, career-based exposure to the coronavirus. >> well, the fda issued its authorization extraordinarily broadly. it would include health care workers, teachers, as you say, people who work in grocery stores, retail generally. anyone who apparently has a lot of contact in an open -- in an open way with the general public and we'll see what the cdc does in order to sharpen up those indications. >> all right. thank you, doc. allison, you are in des moines where testing is back in the news, people will looking for covid tests now overcrowding the health care system in iowa. i thought this was a 2020 story when i first heard about it. what's going on? >> reporter: i know, it feels like t doesn't it? i mean, we're kind of in this space all across the u.s. really where big events are back in full swing, you know, people
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in -- in full swing, rather, people are going to big arena concerts, football games, they're traveling and oftentimes to do those things you now need one of two things, you either need proof of vaccination or you need a negative covid test within a time frame prior to that. so in iowa they closed all of their mass testing sites in july and what does that mean now for people who need to get a covid test who attend an event who are not vaccinated and cannot show proof of being fully vaccinated? well, in iowa's most populous county where we are, polk county, they say what's happening is those people who are not sick are really flooding hospitals and urgent care, places that are supposed to be for people who are really sick and need help, they say that these are people who are not symptomatic and it is one, delaying the process for people going there for actual medical care or for symptoms and that it's also adding a bigger burden on health care workers who are already overwhelmed.
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listen to morph what we heard. >> individuals are flocking to our urgent cares and to our clinics to get a negative covid test. well, what are urgent cares really for? individuals who are sick and individuals who need urgent care. we're really asking people if you are not sick, you are not symptomatic, you need a negative test, there are so many other resources that you can go to. >> reporter: so to be clear, they're not saying if you need to get a covid test you shouldn't get a covid test, of course, particularly if you are sick or have a known exposure you should get tested, but they're saying if you need to just get tested to go to an event there are other options available in nonemergency settings, they are giving out at home test kits at their health department here where people can do it in their car, drop it off at u.p.s. and go about their day. the other big thing they're saying as people are wanting to go back to doing normal fun things the easiest solution for this is for people to just get vaccinated. if you're fully vaccinated, then
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you do not have to get tested as frequently and it will alleviate a lot of the burden that they're seeing here as concerts and things like that come back. garrett? >> so we've talked vaccines, we've talked testing let's talk the other leg of the tripod here. antonia, health officials in tennessee are talking about treatments and are worried they will have to stop the antibody treatments that have become to popular. what's going on there? >> reporter: that's right. look, there are two challenges here, the first is when it comes to antibody infusions that are popular with many people who become sick and are in many cases unvaccinated and experiencing serious symptoms the demand is outstripping the supply and as they're seeing the number of the doses of these infusions diminish, they are still getting call after call from people -- i'm in the nashville area and this clinic says they've been getting 40, 50 people calling just a day. it just creates this incredible challenge where doctors, providers are on the phone with
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people who they can hear are struggling to breathe, are really sick but they are looking at guidelines, trying to decide who is and is not going to get access to these antibody treatments. then it's made all the more confusing by the fact that there's new guidance by the nih and department of health in tennessee asking providers to prioritize people who are unvaccinated when you are trying to give out the remaining doses of these infusions. and doctors at the point haven't been asking people are you or are you not vaccinated in order to receive this, they've just been saying if you are sick and qualify we will try our best to give it to you. and for some folks, you know, this is a frustrating turn of events. some of the vaccinated folks here are like i did what i thought was the best to do for my health and my community and now you're saying if i get a breakthrough case and get really sick i might be at the back of the line. i want you to listen to my conversation with the administrator of the clinic behind me and she is the person who every day is trying to get her hands on as much of these treatments as she can. take a listen.
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>> how much supply do you have on hand right now? >> probably about 50 doses, i think. >> how many people want it? >> well, 45 people submitted a registration last night. >> just last night? >> yeah, just one night. it's about 50 a day. after friday we won't be able to do it anymore. so i hope that i got some medicine next week. >> reporter: jodie says if she can't get her hands on more doses of this infusion treatment she's going to have to announce at a local community here that this clinic can't do it anymore. >> fascinating stuff. thank you all. and speaking of fda approval, we're waiting on them to sign off on vaccinations for kids. after pfizer said their vaccine is safe and effective for children ages 5 to 11. some experts say kids might be able to get a shot as early as halloween. a treat indeed. stephanie ruhle spoke to education secretary miguel cardona about how schools are handling this and whether his
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department would support vaccine mandates once they are fully approved by the fda? >> i know mandates are up to local districts but is your department prepared to back up schools in court if we see a wave of legal challenges? >> not only prepared, i was with the u.s. surgeon general yesterday, vivek murthy, we were visiting a school together and we were talking about -- we were actually in a community center with the governor of illinois and we were talking to those folks about, hey, are you ready when this gets approved to receive the hundreds and thousands of students that are going to be coming in to get vaccinated? i'm excited about that opportunity to make sure that all of our students across the country have that opportunity to be safe and for parents to breathe a little easier. i don't know how old your children are, stephanie, but when my children were vaccinated let me tell you i breathed a lot easier knowing that they're okay. i'm doing everything in my power to protect them and i know so many parents are waiting, so
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many parents are waiting for that opportunity for their children. so, yes, we want to make sure that when it gets approved that we're prepared to get these students safely vaccinated and back to the classroom. >> secretary, i have two kids who are vaccinated and a third who will be the first in line at any pharmacy that will take us when the approval goes through. do you see mandating covid vaccines for kids 5 to 11, once we get out of the emergency approval, once we get full approval, do you see covid vaccines sort of being added to the list of vaccinations that are already required for students to attend school? >> right. you know, i'm going to give you my opinion but first i have to disclaimer that by saying i'm not a medical expert and i trust the medical experts that have kbied us this way, but there is a reason why we didn't wake up this morning thinking about measles, right? it was required, we went through it and it was required for schools. similarly i do support
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vaccination requirements when they're established and i i appreciate what the president did to say for federal employees we're going to require that. so i do support it and i think, you know, our medical experts will make the final determination as to when to require it, but we know it works. we know it works. as a parent you know it worked for your children and what we want to do is get back to the life past this pandemic and we have to use every tool in our toolbox to get that done. >> you can catch the rest of stephanie's interview with education secretary miguel cardona saturday at 3:00 p.m. eastern as part of the "texas tribune" festival, i hosted a panel for the festival as well on the texas house democrats' walkout to protect voting rights, that streams later today. visit festival.texas"tribune".org for ways to stream the event. up next republicans, specifically senate minority leader mitch mcconnell are drawing a hard line when to comes to the debt limit.
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hurt the global economy. it's already affecting sentiment and roiling financial markets. it's because the economy here is so highly dependent on the property sector. real estate and infrastructure have been huge drivers for china's economic growth by some estimates 25% to 30% of gdp, that's just not normal when you compare it to other countries and it's what's made it that much harder to clamp down on the property sector as its become overextended and overheated. there will be economic and political pain here, but this is not the lehman brothers type of moment, a lot of people have been drawing that comparison, this is a different financial bomb. i spoke with michael pettis professor of finance at peking university and he says this isn't a lehman type of meltdown. >> people know what their exposure is and more importantly the system won't freeze because the system is basically owned or controlled by the government and
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they will force banks to continue lending so it's a very different type of crisis. >> reporter: but a failure does seem inevitable in china's government is probably going to step in within days to do something. it won't be a wholesale bailout likely bankruptcy proceedings, a restructuring that would see the company broken apart and also negotiations to make sure that the average people who have put money into pre sold homes don't end up losing everything. only if there's some sort of wider reckoning in the property sector or in china's economy might we see the government do more to stop the pain here. what we should also be watching is that the government is going to be very kraushs of backlash through all of this. already there have been people protesting outside of evergrande's headquarters demanding they get their money back. the government is watching this so we can expect that social unrest will be one of the things beijing will be managing as well
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through this. garrett? >> an interesting chinese version of too big to fail. janis mackey frayer in beijing, thank you. i want to shift to the growing concerns surrounding debt in this country. democrats and republicans are at odds over how to raise or suspend the debt ceiling sometime before we are supposed to hit it next month. if it isn't raised the u.s. could theoretically default on its dealt, potentially plunging the u.s. back into recession costing millions of jobs, trillions of dollars in the process. that's never actually happened. i want to bring in former treasury secretary jack lew, he recently signed on to a letter warning congress against delaying this process any further. so, mr. secretary, we've been in this position 78 times or so since 1960 under democratic and republican presidents, we have never failed to raise or suspend the debt limit to pay our bills. are you really worried this time could be different? >> good to be with you, garrett. i'm always worried when we approach a deadline and we see a
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political fight where the extension of the debt limit has turned into a political weapon. we saw it escalate through the '90s, but really in 2011 to 2013 is when it became a clear strategy. it's a little different this time and i think you have to unpack what people are saying. the republicans in the senate are saying they're not going to vote for the debt limit and it has to pass with democratic votes. what they're not saying is that they're not letting majority vote to pass it. they're saying we're going to need 60 votes to pass a debt limit which means they're going to filibuster it. if they're not going to vote for it they should at least get out of the way and let democrats vote for it. >> they want to make it as politically painful as possible for democrats to raise it. it begs -- >> and that creates peril. that creates peril because you don't know exactly when you need to raise the debt limit.
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it's always hard to predict. it's a function of revenue coming in and spending going out. right now we are at a moment where the economy is recovering from the covid economic crisis. revenues are coming in in a way that is not typical, we're not even opening all the mail promptly to open the checks on quarterly payments because we don't have enough people. >> doesn't that beg the question, then, i understand the bad faith politics here, but doesn't that beg the question that democrats should not mess around with this. they have the ability to do this through reconciliation, given the risk factor here, should democrats -- should the president just say, do you know what, republicans, you are refusing to govern, we're going to handle this because we don't want to play around with it? >> let's remember reconciliation is not the typical way that the debt limit is raised. >> but it's a way that it could be done. it could be done by democrats alone if they decided to say the republicans are refusing to govern so we will just do it. >> it's on its own track now and it's not a simple matter to go
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back and enact a new set of budget rules that would permit that. right now it's going to come up for a vote, if this were on the level republicans would let democrats vote for t they would vote against it and we wouldn't have a crisis. let's remember what happens if you hit the moment where the debt limit doesn't leave you the room to borrow. it means you can't pay your bills. you might hear arguments saying we can pay some but not others. well, for 232 years the united states government has paid all its bills and if you default on any of them it undermines confidence and we are not at a moment where that's a risk that should be taken and we don't have a way to pick and choose between the different things the government spends money on. there would be long delays in making many payments if you ever went to an irresponsible approach like that. >> and that's the democrats' argument is that we made decisions about what the government was going to spend money on when we spent money on it so we ought to just raise the debt ceiling now. >> right. >> the question i have, too,
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here is we are the only country in the world that does it this way. we have raised the debt ceiling almost 100 times since we came up with the concept. it's clearly not holding down debt. it is a debt sunroof at best. why shouldn't we just get rid of it all together? >> look, i have long been an advocate in changing the way we handle the debt limit. going back as far as the 1980s when i worked for striker o'neal we tried to make it an easier process so you wouldn't have these kinds of high wire acts. since we reached the point in 2011 where the u.s. was downgraded by a rating agency and we saw major money market funds dumping short-term treasuries not to hold anything with a maturity yes in the window, i think it's time to figure out a way to get beyond t i also want to point out you said correctly that the debt limit reflects payments for past commitments. the reconciliation bill that's moving through congress now is paid for. it's not the thing that's causing the debt limit to need
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to be raised. it's the tax cut in 2017, it's the spending on covid, it's things that were passed either in a bipartisan basis or with republicans mostly casting the votes. >> yeah. >> i think if you look at what ought to be the place where the pain is happening right now it ought to be how do we things like reform the way that we do taxes in this country so that we collect the revenue that people know. >> mr. lew, if we want to get into the debate about the way things should be run in washington we would be here all day. we cannot do that. i want to thank you for coming on to talk about this. something tells me we will be discussing it again. jack lew, former secretary of the u.s. treasury. coming up, lawmakers are unable to reach a deal on police reform after months of promising talks, but despite an action from congress some local police forces are taking change into their own hands. we will look into that next. in their own hands. we will look into that next. i wt to the owner of a large manufacturing firm.
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house passed a sweeping bill named after george floyd. they had been trying to reach agreement for months, but yesterday after scott rejected yesterday's scaled back proposal, booker said they were still too far from a deal to continue. he spoke about this in this last hour. >> at the end of the day, senator scott and i had a gulf between us that we could not close. we weren't there. it's clear we weren't there. a lot of the stories show we had a gulf between us. we need to find another way. >> even without action from congress, some local police departments have been taking this into their own hands. nbc's shaquille brewster has more. >> reporter: this is new police training on the duty to intervene. >> come on. you can't do this. >> reporter: officers learning the best way to follow an increasingly standard police
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department policy reinforced after the murder of george floyd. >> i appreciate you guys having open minds with respect to this training because it's important for us. >> reporter: d.c. metro police gave nbc news rare access inside their training facility as veteran officers were put through mock scenarios. instructors reinforcing how officers should intervene. >> what you did was perfect. whatever was wrong with the officer you were speaking to, you recognized, separated it, and talked about it. >> it's also about being willing to accept it. >> that's the two biggest parts. not only to say, hey, i've got this, and somebody saying, hey, you're right. i need to take a step back. >> reporter: the a.b.l.e. project was launched last year. 79 agencies in 38 states are now
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a.b.l.e. certified. >> you ramped up quickly after george floyd's death. >> we did. we wanted to be intentional, making sure no one used this as window dressing. >> reporter: all receiving strict standards before receiving the materials. >> the best thing this a.b.l.e. is about is the story that was never told. if nobody knows anything because i stopped it before it happened, we're good. >> reporter: they're hoping to replicate the success of other strategies seen in cockpits, hospital rooms, and in the national campaign credited with rapidly reducing drunk driving deaths. >> police officers don't allow other police officers to engage -- >> how do you know it's not
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working? if the gun's not recovered. if i'm going to err on the side of caution, i would rather they have this than not have this. >> reporter: now, this training is still being implemented throughout the entire department. look. this is a far cry from what activists and legislators have been calling for when they talk about sis semic change and that accountability piece. there's a sign with regard to the responsive change at different evenlies. >> that's going to wrap up this hour. i'm garrett haake filling in for stephanie ruhle. my for stephanie ruhle. it's the most studied eye vitamin brand. if it were my vision, i'd look into preservision preservision areds 2 contains the exact nutrient formula
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good morning. i'm chris jansing on a thursday when president biden's infrastructure and social safety net bills are at a critical crossroad as to no clear answer as to where they're headed. later this hour house speaker nancy pelosi will give us a sense where she thinks we stand at a weekly news conference. the president tried to build some consensus in a eries of meetings yesterday with moderates. here's what vermont senator bernie sanders had to say this morning. >> i have compromised. the bill that should have been passed in my judgment was a $6 trillion

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