tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC July 30, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
that does it for us tonight. but i will see you tomorrow and sunday morning from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. for my show, velshi. and julian castro will join the rally on the texas state capitol, and washington, d.c., to start to jasmine crockett. and it's time for the last word, where jonathan capehart is in for lawrence. that is more my show. we do that on sunday mornings. >> i guess we are going to do it saturday morning as well. >> well, thanks very much, ali. it's about damn time. that is how bill passkrell side.
the treasury department must turn over the trump tax returns to the committee. the bill barr justice department, the donald trump justice department, blocked trump's returns from being released despite the fact that the law is clear. the treasury department shall turn over a tax document. today, the committee's request to see the record is lawful, valid and should be fulfilled. quote, applying the proper degree of deference to the committee, we believe that there is an ample basis to conclude that the june 2021 request would assess the irs's presidential audit program, a plainly legitimate area for inquiry and
possible legislation. richard neal said, as i have maintained for years, the commit's case is very strong and the law is on our side. i'm glad that department of justice agree forward. and house speaker nancy pelosi says access to former president trump's tax return is a matter of national security. the american people deserve to know the facts of his troubling conflicts of interest and under mining of our security and democracy as president. leading off our discussion tonight is congressman lloyd doggett of texas. he is on the house ways and means committee. congressman doggett, thank you so much for being here. the immediate question for you is this. when do you get donald trump's tax returns? >> not yet. but this is an important step in getting us there, jonathan, and it is important to remember how we get to this point today.
donald trump lied about his willingness to disclose his tax returns as the public outcry of that began to intensify. he presented us in the committee a letter, a letter from his law firm there was nothing to look at. not noting that the same law firm was named the russia law firm of the year. for years, months at least, the house republicans on the committee covered up for him. i made six motions. they refused to use a law that grew out of another republican scandal over 100 years ago, and richard nixon saying i'm not a crook over his tax deductions. and the treasury secretary or the irs commissioner shall deliver returns when they request it. and what we had for months and
years is an unwillingness to comply with that law. now that we have this decision, it's really a question of what mr. trump's next tactic is to try to hide the evidence that i think will show his tax evasion. >> well, congressman doggett, on the question of handing over the returns when they are requested, here is something from the doj decision that says the june 2021 request seeks the same categories of information as the april 2019 request but it covers 2015 to 2020. where the april 2019 requests asked for information from the tax years 2013 to 2018. my question for you, why the change in years requested? why is that significant? >> well, i think it was just an updating of the prior request to bring it up to date. i actually think the request -- we provided for this in the for the people act, should cover ten
years. but the main point is that the committee has drafted a narrow legislative request, to enable to be sure that the audit that president trump kept using as an excuse is being conducted properly and not the result of his manipulation and intimidation of the internal revenue service. and he also in the request he filed in june mentions the possibility of foreign entanglement. we know the saudi money, the russian money that seemed to pour into trump's accounts, and a good basis for getting it. it's just a question now, can a court case pending, of whether trump comes up with yet more executions, or files an injunction that will try to
block what will eventually. i don't believe any president has ever tried to hard to hide so much. there is much at stake here, and it's really important that we get this information. once we have it, that's not a guarantee that it remains public. in fact, it would be a criminal offense if i were to disclose that information prematurely. it will be a matter of the committee looking at the documents in private. i'm sure there will be a substantial amount of them, and determining in a report whether any of this should be made public as we see what's there. >> and how soon would that be, do you think? >> well, i think -- it won't be soon enough for me. i have been trying to get this for years. but i want a fair examination. recognizing the privacy rights of any person. but that particularly with reference to a president of the united states who can manipulate a tax system that relies on voluntary compliance for most
taxpayers. and they see this as being done fairly. in that circumstance, i believe we have a good stance and we should take our time to look at it. the sooner the documents can be reviewed, the sooner it can be made for public disclosure. you know, our republican colleagues a few years pay go, when it was lois learner and a group they were planning, intimidating right wing organizations, they didn't hesitate to disclose the public returns. it may be up to the committee to take a vote to report portions of this as public. >> congressman lloyd doggett, thank you so much for coming to the "last word" joining us now, david johnson who has done
extensive reporting. and matt miller, former spokesman for eric holder, and msnbc contributor. david, i will start with you. you know all when it comes to donald trump's taxes. what do you think congress is going to see when they finally get the committee? when congressman doggett finally gets the taxes in front of him? >> when they get the tax return information, they are going to see clear evidence of calculated fraud. i base that on the fact that donald has had two civil tax fraud trails. and one of the lawyers testified that donald had forged his own tax return. so there's no return to believe that his tax returns will show he's an honest man, and he has fighting as a matter of
principle. he does it because he knows he's a major league tax cheat. >> david, how will this, if at all, dove tail with the manhattan district attorney's investigation, and what the state attorney general is doing in new york? >> well, the state level officials in new york have the tax information. and they have actually had much of it for a long time because new york state tax returns, which they already had, and federal returns, are almost identical for residents of new york state. i fully expect there will be an indictment of donald trump for tax fraud and also racketeering of article 460 of the new york penal code. and the attorney general only has civil authority unless granted by the governor. we don't know which will grow out of that. but i think donald will face
civil action by the state of new york and the district attorney in manhattan. >> matt, earlier this week, the justice department dealt a blow to mo brooks saying they will not be defending him, accusing him of inciting violence on january 6th. some people voice concern, i will call it bed wetting, a lot of folks on the left bed wetting over attorney general merit garland and how he was doing things with the previous administration. but what do your view on that? how do you view it? >> i think it's okay to disagree with some of the decisions. i disagreed with some of them. but i think the krift schism that he was an apologist for the previous administration, and he was trying to do their bidding, it was off base. i think he was trying very hard
to follow the rule of law, and it's difficult as attorney general, you get control of the justice department to see issues that are coming well in advance to have time to make a considered decision about how you my want to change course, and i think they had time to get their bearings now, and you are starting to see the effects of some of the decisions. i think what is heartening about all of the decisions, and more you didn't mention this week, they were all grounded in the commitment to the rule of law. and not just the commitment to the rule of law, but really grounded in first principles that no man or women, even the president of the united states, is above the law. that secrecy is important but it continue be used to cover up wrong doing, when there is
serious evidence of illegality. and i think it shows the attorney general, the deputy attorney general are not just smart and capable of the rule of law but they understand it's really important to uncover the wrong doing in the last administration and hold people accountable. >> hold people accountable, matt, to the point of pursuing criminal action against them? >> i think they will when it's appropriate. look, it wasn't this week but just last week, the department of justice indicted the former inaugural chair tom barrick, and when they they think they can win a case in court or when the corruption is so flagrant, i don't think they will hesitate to bring charges. it doesn't mean everyone you or
i want to have indict left side be indicted. they face hurdles in white collar cases. but i think when they have the evidence to bring cases, i think the actions in the past week show they won't hesitate to do so. >> and david, quickly to you, given everything you know about donald trump and what happened today, what is his next move? >> he's going to go to court and try to get a temporary restraining order and permanent junction. the law here is clear. it says the irs and treasury shall turn the documents over. it's a right the president has. they made a colorable argument there is an issue here, and donald himself said he was being unfairly treated by the irs because he is president. that is plenty of grounds for an inquiry. i will be surprised if the first judge, even a trump appointee, rules in his favor. >> thanks for joining us
tonight. coming up, stunning new details with trump's obsession to declare the 2020 election corrupt. swongman swalwell and joyce vance will joining next. e will . breyers. 100% grade a milk and cream, and loaded with delicious cookie pieces. better starts with breyers. (vo) when you are shopping for a new vehicle, how do you know which brand you can trust? with subaru, you get kelley blue book's most trusted brand winner, seven years in a row. in fact, subaru has won most trusted brand for more consecutive years than any other brand. no wonder kelley blue book also picked subaru as their best overall brand. once again. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru. (customer) hi? (burke) happy anniversary. (customer) for what? (burke) every year you're with us, you get fifty dollars toward your
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just ten days before the pro trump mob stormed the capitol to disrupt the signing of joe biden's election win. trump declared the 2020 election was corrupt. that is according to nine pages of hand-written notes obtained from the house oversight kmitty, notes from a phone call between trump and richard donahue. according to the notes, richard donahue said, understand that the doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. it doesn't work that way.
trump responded, say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. yeah, he actually said that. he didn't mean which republicans he was referring to. but the notes indicate, he mentioned jim jordan and scott perry and senator ron johnson. all three supported trump's election lies. joining me now are congressman eric swalwell of california. and the author of "end game, inside the impeachments of donald trump" and joyce vance from the district of alabama and a professor of the alabama university school of law. she is a msnbc contributor. congressman swalwell, i have to start with you. it's hard to believe the second impeachment, in which you were
impeachment manager, it was still this year, a few months ago. is there anything, nine pages of notes we have seen, do they fit with what you possibly saw as an impeachment manager a few months ago? >> part of me wishes that we could impeach him again and make sure he can never, ever run for office because he is seeking to do that, and he has all the elements in place to try to overturn an election again if he tries to run for office. so good evening, jonathan. good evening, joyce. this is what we saw. we saw someone who had such disdain for the rule of law, contempt for democracy. we're not going to impeach him again, of course, but we should bring the witnesses in, and understand what vulnerabilities in government, and put in place laws, so in future leader, democrat or republican, can test
us in this way again. >> congressman swalwell, i'm sure you have seen it now. it's an instant classic. here is jim jordan today. >> did you speak with president trump january 6th? >> yeah, i speak with him all the time. >> on january 6th, did you speak with him before, during or after the capitol was attacked? >> i have to go -- i spoke with him that day. after. i think after. i don't know if i spoke with him in the morning or not. i just don't know. i don't know that -- when those conversations happened. >> translation, hamina, hamina, hamina. congressman swalwell, you're reaction to that? >> i remember every second of that day, sadly, and there isn't a day that has gone by where i haven't thought about that day.
so that sounds like someone who shouldn't be an investigator. he is a witness. he is a part of propagating a big lie, asemibling a lie, and he had to know what trump was up to, and what he did and what he did not do to save life and the counting of the voice. >> joyce, i'm going to put up a tweet of yours from today. you wrote the fact that doj turned these notes over the house oversight committee, the type of internal product they typely fight to protect, suggests this is serious, potentially criminal conduct. talk about that. >> doj will hold any of its internal work product, particularly notes that a senior official might take in a known
call. that is not something they turn over without a fight. but they believe the events are so important and the information is so critical, they're going to permit former trump administration folks to give unrestricted testimony. they're not going to exert executive privilege and they are turning over documents. this is serious stuff. whether it's criminal requires investigation, but certainly, the investigation is merited. >> and joyce, is the information relevant to what is happening in georgia, the fulton county criminal probe into a phone call in which trump tried to pressure the georgia secretary of state, find me 10,780 votes? >> so jonathan, the interplay between the two events is pretty
interesting. let me talk about one way it might be significant. prosecutors have a hard time so prove intent. was there a plan to overturn the results of a legitimate election? and something that makes it more likely it was intentional rather than an accident, if there is evidence of a repeated course of conduct, and it's actually admissible evidence, say georgia were to indict, prosecutors would offer evidence of other similar related courses of conduct, like the pressure that jump bore on the justice department, but an intentional effort to subvert the election in georgia. >> congressman swalwell, considering you have been an impeachment manager, and devised questions to ask witnesses, what
kinds of questions should investigators be asking now? >> at this point, tries to understand what trump and those around him knew as to who was going to show up january 6th. mo brooks, who you referenced earlier, he admitted this week he was wearing body armor when he gave the inciting remarks just outside the white house. what did he know that led him to wear body armor? what will trump know about who was showing up? and what decisions did he make to protect the capitol or not make that could have protected the capitol? that will be incredibly helpful for us as we try to ensure that we again have a peaceful transition of power in this country, one that we did not have in the 2021 transition as we go in the next presidential election. >> congressman swalwell, one more question to you, and i think you alluded to this earlier. how concerned are you that -- really, we dodged a bullet in
2020 in that we had responsible people who were being pressured by the president of the united states, members of his own party who do not bend to his will and subvert the constitution of the united states. how concerned are you that that pressure won't hold in the 2022 elections? >> jonathan, as i and my colleagues were running through the floor for the evacuation route, i was like, it can't end this way. this can't be out democracy dies. it's on life support right now. because nothing has changed. trump is telling people he is coming back in august. mark meadows said something about a cabinet meeting and plans he is going to announce soon. he is still assembling a shadow
cabinet, it sounds like, and we don't have the security posture at the capital we need to protect a future coup attempt. so i am concerned. and the best thing to inoculate against that is the unity of republicans and democrats really debunking the big lie, acknowledging joe biden as president, other wise, we are close to a flat line right now for our democracy. >> on that note, we have to leave it there, congressman eric swalwell and joyce vance, thank you for joining us tonight. coming up, the war has changed with the delta variant? what does it mean as we approach school and office reopening. reo. o please please no. ♪ i never needed anyone. ♪ front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪ those days are done. ♪
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people. the study convinced cdc scientists, quote, the war has changed. according to an internal report, the cdc concluded that delta variant cases may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases. the study says that vaccinated people should wear masks, indoors and areas with high or substantial virus transmission. the study happened in massachusetts which has the second highest vaccination right in the nation. 63.9% of the population is fully vaccinated. over the weekend in providencetown, 73% of people with the delta variant were vaccinated. four vaccinated people were
hospitalized. not a single person died. in las vegas today, an unvaccinated father of five died of covid. one of his last text messages, should i have gotten the damn vaccine. >> our babies now don't have a dad. you can't say i'm young and it won't affect me. i expected to get 30 more years with him. >> he was the best daddy any kid could have. >> joining us now is dr. uche blackstock. the found interceo of advancing health equity and a msnbc con
tributor. it's heart breaking, seeing the text message before he died. what do we know about the data before getting the vaccine? >> thank you so much for having me, jonathan. i think what the data is showing and the game changer is that break through infections, although still rare, that fully vaccinated individuals who are infected carry a lot of virus with them, as much virus as someone who is unvaccinated. so there is a possibility that those fully vaccinated, infected people may actually be able to transmit infection to unvaccinated individuals. and that was not the case with the prior version of this virus. >> let me show everyone a tweet you send out this morning, and it was a conversation you had with someone on the street. you wrote, just got stopped on the street by an older black man who has seen me on msnbc and he wanted to share that he confessed two friends of him to get vaccinated.
this vaccination effort is a grassroots effort too. dr. blackstock, i'm wondering are more people getting vaccinated like that man, not only because of seeing you on tv but news of the surge is moving people to get vaccinated. >> well, we know that in states that have seen an increase -- most profound up ticks in cases that i have also seen an increase in vaccinations. so i do think that some level, the delta variant is scarier, rather motivating some people to get vaccinated. but i think other people might be unmoved by this. and a lot of the kaiser family foundations, people have a variety of reasons for not being vaccinated. in communities of colors, there is distrust of institutions that have harmed communities. and the conversations i had, with the gentleman who started
me on the street, that was a concern of his friend. but with patience, and discussion, they decided to get vaccinated. >> one of the other data points, things that noted in the report is that the delta variant is as transmissible as chicken pox. what does it mean for parents of children under 12 years old for whom the vaccine wasn't approved? >> i have a 4 and 6-year-old, and i was very concerned. the delta variant is more transmissible than most of the respiratory viruss in history. so the concern is going in the school year, ensuring that schools are using multilayered strategy of masking, physical distancing, testing, ventilation is incredibly important. the virus, just like chicken pox, is airborne. so ventilation is going to be key, and the concern i have, in
states where the governors had restricted mask mandates, even in schools, we are already seeing surges in those particular states. >> we will probably see outbreaks related to schools in those same areas as well. because of the mask mandates restricted. >> and i'm wondering here in washington, that i have been reimposed. in los angeles, they are reimposed, and folks seeing on the news about the delta variant, and might have family reunions and things coming up in the next month. august is just two days away. how concern should people be about going to big family gathering as a result of the delta variant? >> yeah, i know for a lot of people, it feels like two steps forward, one step back. you know, essentially, this is a dynamic situation. the situation is evolving. we now have a delta variant that
has thrown a wrench into a promising situation, for the fall. but i would say for people who are considering family gathering for august is to obviously avoid indoor areas and outdoor crowded areas are also incredibly risky. we're going to have to think about smaller gathering just like we did last fall. we're going to probably have to repeat a lot those things, sort of physical distancing, restrictions we had before, especially if we're in settings where there are other people, we don't know their vaccination status. so things are changing. i said, it's a dynamic situation. we have to be able to flex to it. >> dr. uche blackstock. thank you for joining us tonight. coming up, the texas team may have got a victory, and could put 100,000 people's
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shower with new dove men. been in washington for 18 days in a desperate last ditch effort to block one of the nagts's most restrictive noter repression bills to pass in a republican-led state legislature. but the bill is to overlook what texas democrats are already won, a provision to make it easier to overturn election results removed. a provision ending sunday voting, souls to the polls out, and this week, texas democrats may have won another victory after nicole collier sounded an alarm yet about a provision that could put 100,000 texas voters at risk. >> i want to talk about the provisions in the bill.
say she registered to vote 20 years ago, there is a provision that would require someone who is eligible to vote by mail to insert the last four digits of the driver's license or social security member. she may not remember which one she provided. if she put down the other number, even though it's a correct one, her ballot would be rejected, and there is no cure opportunity to cure the ballot and she would not know the ballot is rejected. >> here is what texas republican pat fallen said following up. >> i got a text from your colleagues that are in austin, and on your concern, represent
representative collier, they are going to cure it via an
amendment. joining me us, senfronia thompson, the dean of the texas house democratic caucus, and state representative nicole collier, from the ft. worth area, chair of the black caucus. represent sif collier, do we have confirmation that republicans are going to pull the revirgs? >> that's the first time i heard that. i had not been in contact with them. they had not reached out to me. in fact at the hearing, the 23-hour -- more than 24 23-hour hearing that miss t, the dean of the delegation was at, they offered amendments to the bill and they were all rejected under party lines. so this is just another play they did in the regular session where they made promises and
commitments but they were all unfulfilled. so i hope they could
keep their promise but i'm not going to hold my breath on it. >> so you haven't heard anything at all about what the congressmen said to you, just to confirm? >> no, in fact, i had to go to congress to hear from a congressman member that the texas house members are willing to negotiate or make decisions on the anti-voter bill. >> representative thompson, great to see you again. you have been in town as has representative collier 18 days. you have yet to meet with president biden. are you hopeful you will be able to meet with him in the time you are here? and if you do, what do you want him to understand about the fight for fighting right, not just in texas, but what it means
for america? >> i would like for him to understand that we are americans who deserve the same voting rights that every citizen has. and that it is time for us to stop fighting the same fights of the past in order to be able to have a voice in our democracy. >> you know, you said something to me in our conversation that i had with you on my podcast at the washington post, representative thompson. you said we're regressing. we're regressing back to a place in history where we want to limit minorities to participate in their democracy. just like my grandmother was limited in her right to participate in her democracy. in the end, when you have to go back to texas, that you will be able to go back to texas that you did indeed win something as
a result of this fight? >> i do believe we can. because we when came here 18 days ago it seemed to be issued on the back burner. but i want tenacity on the hill, and i will -- persistence has called the legal to be moved to activity. even today, we learned that the speaker of the house, the majority leader and another senator went to meet with the president to talk about the bill, the voting bill, and we know that we need preclearance, and we need preclearance with retro activity with two to three years, and that would solve the problems. we would not have the problems we have, mr. capehart, if texas is not a state -- it's 83.5% people of color. >> representative collier, last question to you, and that is
this. if your meetings in washington here, how prominent is the discussion -- horror how from prominent is talk of the filibuster, doing away with it, reforming it, carving out reform so that voting rights don't have to -- filibuster. how big is filibuster? >> i think we need to get to the substance of the measures? what are they going to do? are they going to amend the for the people act? we need a preclearance revision with a five-year look back, and whether it's base on historical data of a state, and texas who has a history of discrimination against people of color, or do we look at the states that are now having a higher rate of the people of color and look at the practical implications? so we just want to make sure they are continues
discussions and moving the needle forward like miss t. said to make sure they can get through the discussion of the filibuster. but we have to start with the bill so we can move forward quickly. >> nicole collier and senfronia thompson, thank you so much for. coming up, next week could be make-or-break week for chuck schumer and president biden's two-track plan on infrastructure. that's next. two-track plan on infrastructure that's next. ♪ [truck horn blares]
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vote that will open up the package to potential changes through the amendment process. it remains to be seen whether there will be any amendments because the final text of the bill hasn't been released. majority leader schumer believes amendment votes could happen this weekend, keeping the chamber on track to pass the deal before the august recess. >> the senate remains on track to reach our goal of passing both a bipartisan infrastructure and a budget resolution with reconciliation instructions before the start of the august recess. it is an ambitious deadline, absolutely but the hard work put in by senators and staff means that we are on the right track to get it done. given the bipartisan nature of the bill, the senate should be able to process this legislation rather quickly. we may need the weekend, we may vote on several amendments, but with the cooperation of our republican colleagues, i believe we can finish the bipartisan infrastructure bill in a matter of days. >> joining us now is
sahil kapoor, national reporter for nbc news. when will we see the text of this bipartisan package? >> hey, jonathan. it is a good question. as of two hours ago i was told by an aide involved in writing this that it could be done as early as tonight. now, the night is running out of moments left if i look at the clock, so i suspect it won't be done tonight. the hope is that it will be done tomorrow and some point this weekend they can begin the process, hopefully to stay on chuck schumer's schedule for democrats. wrap it up by early next week and get the budget resolution done, that $3.5 trillion vehicle, before they head home for the august recess. >> okay. so you and i both know capitol hill, and we certainly know how senate minority leader mitch mcconnell operates. you have written a piece, what's in it for mcconnell, because he hasn't blown this up. so what is in it for mcconnell?
>> it is a question a lot of people on capitol hill are asking, jonathan. of course, senate republican leader mitch mcconnellself-styl grim reaper of progressive legislation, and he appears to be going along with the top priority of president biden. so why is that? there are a couple of reasons according to many conversations i have had with his taupe allies and even some of his critics. first is that many republicans in his senate caucus want this bill, they're invested in it. that includes retiring members like rob portman who is in legacy mode, thinking how he will be remembered. it includes people like lisa murkowski who came to washington to do things, not just obstruct thing. mcconnell is not omnipotent. he has to give them what they want sometimes otherwise his position could be jeopardized. the second reason is he's eager to save the filibuster and there
are two democratics who are supportive of the filibuster. passing this would allow them to go to the senate and say, look, it works. the infrastructure bill is popular, there's little opposition to it. and former president trump's missives have had almost zero impact on the caucus. so there's little downside for mcconnell to allow it to happen. >> in the less than a minute we have left, could you tell me, explain why kris sen sinema is threatening to scuttle the reconciliation bill? >> she said she opposed the $3.5 trillion price tag. she did not say why, identify policies she opposes because there aren't policies in the bill. it is currently kind of a concept. so that's her position, $3.5
trillion is too much. in theory $3.4 trillion could be viable for her. so she is not necessarily trying to blow it up all together. they wanted $6 trillion to $10 thrillon, and some progressives i spoke to including jayapal and alexandria ocasio-cortez of new york are not happy with the fact she is objecting to $3.5 trillion. aoc accused sinema of trying to nuke the entire process, including the infrastructure bill and the reconciliation bill which, by the way, are tied together in the house. these have to come up around the same time in order for speaker pelosi to consider either because the house progressives have threatened to blow up the bipartisan deal unless they get president biden's other priorities, jonathan. >> and house speaker nancy pelosi made it clear she wants both together. nbc's sahil kapoor. i'm jonathan capehart. you can catch me tomorrow on a special edition of "the saturday
show." i will be joined by bet owe o'rourke. watch "the saturday show" at 10:00 a.m. eastern on msnbc. "the 11th hour with brian williams" starts right now. ♪ ♪ good evening once again. i'm chris jansing in for brian williams. day 192 of the biden administration. in this urgent and critical phase of the pandemic, the white house has stepped up its response to the surge, doubling efforts to get more vaccinated and also recommending masks even for those who have gotten their shots. tonight there's a new indication the white house could be weighing even tougher tactics to stop the spread. >> reporter: should americans expect more coming up, more restrictions because of covid? >> in all probability. by the way, we had a good day yesterday. almost a million people got