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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 29, 2021 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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between defending to break our defenses and shouting at or attempting to convert us. >> the officers who defended the capitol marked further testimony. >> god save us from these third rate three at tricks. >> why even police officers are now for green for the right-wing media. >> then, why did you vote no on this bill which was on the floor of the house? >> -- how democrats are done with republican nonsense. as masks return to the house -- >> which is it, vaccines or masks? if the vaccines work, or they don't work? >> republicans lose it over the new restrictions, and immune already leader attacks the science. >> leader mccarthy says it's against the science -- >> he's such a moron. >> when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes.
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breaking news, a big deal bipartisan infrastructure deal believe it or not, a few hours, ago a group of 21 senators announced it. it came as a bit of a surprise, and earlier this week it said like sounded like said deal was likely dead. it appears that is no longer the case on the huge 1.8 trillion dollar bill or deal seems to be happening. we will get pete buttigieg to talk about it he's been a big one for wanting that to happen. -- screaming into the darkness about how republicans are being played but never offers critique to the difference. everything is someone winning, losing, someone is getting screwed and someone is doing the screwing. it is a cold, very sad, cynical way to view the world, but it's also come to dominate the entire republican movement. it's the transgressive thrill
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of being a jerk, being cruel, mocking people and deriving them when they are in pain or suffering, or having a problem. the thing is, everyone in life and countless people who are jerks, might be a coworker, friend of a, friend some people have family members who are jerks, it happens. we all deal with, it that is one thing. elevating that, being a jerk, cruel, defining someone's political movement is rude altogether. this is donald trump superpower. it's what's the base loved about, him also what he loved. being mean. even when he was going after his own conservative supporters, he was mean. >> a year ago, you told me on my radio show, the audio and the transcripts are out there on youtube -- that you would release your tax returns. >> true. >> are you going back on your commitment? >> no, i'm not first of all. very few people listen to your ready show, that's the good show -- news. which happens to be true. check out the ratings. >> he did stuff like this all
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the time, and he learned people would just say thank you sir, may have another? and never stick up for themselves. he just kept doing it over and over. the nasty behavior, mocking someone who is disabled, we all know what went on. the atlantic serve -- so friday wrote, the cruelty is the point by adam server, his only true pretty on the money. yesterday, we were served up to perfect examples unfold
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display. the first was this incredibly emotional testimony, investigating the capitol attack of these four officers who and faced brutal violence on january. six in harry dunn's case, he had a slew of racist words shot at him. the officers spoke with poise and candid-ness about what they experienced that day. >> being an officer, you know your life is at risk every time you walk out the door. even though you don't expect law-abiding citizens to take up arms against you. but nothing, truly nothing, has prepared me to address those elected members of our government, who continue to deny the events that day. in doing so, they betray their oath of office. >> a sea of people was punctuated throughout my flags, mostly variations of american flags and trump flags. to my perpetual confusion, i saw the thin blue line flag, a
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symbol of support for law enforcement, more than, once being carried by the terrace as they ignored our commands and continued to assault us. >> can you tell us what you are thinking when you are losing oxygen and thought that might be the end? >> my rationale there, about the way i was thinking, we can't let these people in no matter what, even if it costs my life. >> once the building was cleared, i went to the rotunda to recover with the other officers, the shared experiences from what happened that afternoon. i sat down on a bench with a friend of mine at the rotunda who is also a black capitol police officer, and told him about the racial slurs i endured and became very emotional and began yelling how the blank did something like this happen. is this america? i began sobbing. officers came over to console me. >> after watching that, i
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sincerely hope that even if the point those officers were making did not directly align with their policies, some basic human decency and you would recognize this is genuine human pain. cognize i remember walking intoe american national congressional cleveland, it was the first night of donald trump's confession. it was benghazi, and national security as the focus. i was in there in the ground floor. there was a woman named pat smith, the mother of one of the people who died in the 2012 attack on the u.s. -- woke because we, she was up there talking about the loss of her son. i remember feeling awful for her. it was hard not to feel that when someone in your presence, is in obvious pain. while the politics of it all seemed many punitive, at no time did i feel -- compelled to ridiculed this woman who was suffering. i had a tv show at the time, if i was a sociopath, i could have. and never courts me though. that's not with the conservative movement and maga
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era is all about. mocking people for their loss, their pain, it's a huge part of the point. it's why they're doing it. not surprisingly, this is what we saw last night. >> watch for no insight these psychological trauma he endured for an excuse to ditch our bill of rights. >> i have been left with the psychological trauma and emotional anxiety of having survived such a horrific event. >> [laughs] it's interesting that michael fanone didn't experienced trauma on the d.c. police forced. >> the award for best use of an exaggeration in a supporting role, the winners echo in a gonell who thinks the pen is mightier than the sword. >> we had all these items and things that were thrown at us, and used to attack us, and those are weapon. if it is a pen. >> the word for plain news of
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politics when facts, fails the angle award goes to capitol police officer, harry dunn. >> i'm a law enforcement officer. i do my best to keep politics out of my job, but in this circumstance, i responded. well, i voted for bush -- joe biden, does my vote not count? am i nobody? >> we have more with him in a moment. that's not about politics at all. >> keep in mind, the people directed criticism here are some of the most privileged and cost to people on earth. donald trump is the perfect example, he is a thoroughly mediocre legacy case who herded -- inherited everything from his dad, he included millions of dollars -- a prep school foes and food era. they certainly never faced anything like those officers faced on january 6th. there was also the news about
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simone biles, the fourth time medalist and greatest gymnast ever. summer olympics happening in tokyo in japan, i've been watching and enjoying. biles withdrew from the competition. she did it yesterday after coming down awkwardly during her signature event, the vault. she kind of lost her place mid-air, and was hurling herself in a way that could be physically catastrophic. >> i feel good. i am in shape. emotionally, that varies on the time and the moment, you know. coming here to the line picks and being the head star of the olympics is not an easy feat. we are trying to take it one day at a time, we will see. >> biles withdrew from the team finals, in fact, probably helped her team which won the silver medal. she now she will not be competing and -- competing in the tomorrow's round of competition because of a mental health issue. i'm feeling empathetic for her,
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she's an incredible figure. for others, it's another opportunity to find a way to malkin ridicule and monetize someone's pain in a moment of weakness, broadcast all over the world. >> we are raising a generation of weak people like simone biles. if you want to be -- if she got all these mental health problems, don't show up. she's an incredible athlete, of course. i just said she is probably the greatest gymnast of all-time, she's also very selfish, she's a mature, and she is a shame to the country. she is totally a sociopath. >> [laughs] that guys talking about weak people, weak people. right. there is a little about that rant surprising. conservatives understand what's at their bread is buttered, so they love nothing more than two rage against black, people their audience needs that out. hi wonder why. i was not even that surprised,
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honestly, by the mocking of police officers that we saw. although, it is a little surprising in some ways when you think about. it when you build a political movement, whose emotional core is transgression and cruelty, ultimately no one is safe from that kind of treatment. what kind of governments will that lead to the next time these folks get power? >> congressman eric swalwell is a democrat from california who says, some republicans are trying to raise the heroism of the officers who were there january 6th. he joins me. i wonder what response or reaction is to sort of watching the scorn being heaped on these for individuals who came before the committee yesterday. >> it's hard to watch, chris. i am someone who is alive, and was a part of a process that counted votes to make sure the
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next presidents victory can be sort of fine because of those officers. two of my brothers work every day to defend and protect the community where i grew up. i know the pain that this causes officers, it retraumatizes them. we are not asking tucker carlson to put on the body armor and go and the and hand to hand combat like mike fanone, and daniel hodges, and sergeant gonell did that. day we are not asking for that courage. we are just asking for the decency to acknowledge what they did and recognize the truth of what happened today to our country, in nearly died, sadly it is on life support today. >> the decency question, i think most of your colleagues across the aisle are not so indecent that they would keep that scorn. i would bet, even the people in scorn wouldn't do it to harry dunn's face. much easier to say it here.
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there's also just some ears plugged, see no evil, hear no evil, let's avoid the whole thing. i think that's cast something over the capital of the past month >> i've done a lot with done, and i saw him before, this harry dunn. now you do see members, chris, they walk by him, they kind of put their head down. i think it is a little bit of guilt that he is being treated the way that he is and that, they might not be saying it themselves, but they are enabling kevin mccarthy and marjorie taylor greene and andrew clyde and others who are making these attacks. >> i want to play for you something -- i know you have a friendship, and relationship with michael fanone. he's been on the program before. he talked about, as did, others their view on this. they know what they saw that day, they know the people there. but they want to find out, is
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who and how they were sent. here's what he had to say. >> in the academy, we learn about time, place, and circumstance in investigating potential crimes and those who may have committed them. that is what i am looking for, is an investigation into those actions and activities which may have resulted in the events of january six. also, whether or not there was collaboration between those members, their staff, and these terrorists. >> we can only deal with the crimes that happened on the streets, the misdemeanors, and occasionally the violent felonies, but, you guys are the only ones we've got to deal with crimes that occur above us. i need you guys to address if
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anyone in power had a role in this. >> that seems like the sticking point and fear and opposition from your colleagues >> that's right. when i listen to it play back from hodges and fanone, i hear that we put our bodies into the mix to protect the country that day, and we saved it, as i said, it's on life support. but you are the ones who are charged with understanding how it happened, holding those account to our responsible and making sure our democracy moves on and that the heroism of those officers always is a part of the story of america, and not a race as some in congress are trying to do. >> congressman erin swalwell thank you for taking the time i appreciate it. something >> we talk about often, how members of congress are trying to overturn the
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election that day and were denied the violence of the mob. yesterday, jamie raskin gave us his unequivocal answer we never let him just business as usual just ahead. >> do you think that what the experience was an attack by tourists or terrorists or violent insurrection's? we have an opportunity to clarify. >> if you read the first -- part >> i'm not interested in that, i'm asking you. that, i'm asking you
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breached the capitol building, they cry to break into the chambers. this picture shows the chaos as they barricaded the doors to keep them out out. and you might also recognize that on the far left his republican congressman andrew clyde of georgia. and you can see the sheer panic on the man's face. he's pressing and self against a wall as a security officer gun drawn, protects his life. in the months that followed, congressman clyde rather infamously changed his tune about that day at a hearing about security lapses that may have allowed the attack to happen. clyde compared the scene on january six to a, quote, normal tourist visit. of course, that is a ludicrous characters i station, everyone who is not under dame trumps thumb knows. that the suggestion that they were is offensive to the people that were there that day and lift to the terror of it. that includes jamie raskin, last night raskin confronted clyde at a rules committee
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meeting, clearly feeling that business could not just go on as usual with those comments still hanging in the air. >> did you have an opportunity to see officers hodges and fun none, and done, or sergeant canal? >> mister raskin, let's stick to the amendment -- >> i'm getting to the amendment. if you don't like the question, you can just -- say >> that's not the point. >> well i don't need you correctly my question, sir. i'm asking you did you watch the testimony of the capital officers who defended our lives on jenner six, or did you not. it's a yes or no question. >> it's irrelevant. it's a relevant to this amendment right. here >> than we were asked the question by several of our colleagues including missed genie, about statements that you made saying that january 6th violent insurrection against congress was akin to a normal tourist visit.
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and those officers said they weren't tourists, they were terrorists, do you stand by your statement that they were tourists? we >> i would like you to quote my exact statement. >> not your interpretation of my statement. >> okay. watching the tv footage of those who entered the capitol wearing rock through statuary halls, should people in an orderly fashion staying between the stanchions on ropes, taking videos and pictures, if you do know the tv video footage was a video from january six, you would actually think it's a normal tourist visit. those are your words. >> and i stand by that exact statement as i said it. >> you voted no on getting congressional gold medals. to the officers who defended our lives that day. hundred and 40 of whom were wounded, injured, dozens
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inhospitable, people lost fingers, people had their eyes gouged, people experience traumatic brain injuries. people experiencing post-traumatic stress syndrome and you voted no on an extended congressional gold medals to them, why did you do that? >> again, that has nothing to do with this amendment. but you know what i will tell you -- >> i will bring you back to that amendment, still clyde. >> i cosponsored an amendment, i bill, to give three gold medals to the capitol police. for all of what they've done. it was introduced by representative gossamer, so i'm sorry if you don't understand that or if you didn't mean to get that information -- >> mr. collide. >> speaker pelosi -- she is the one who was in charge of the capitol police and the sergeant at arms. >> well things we've learned from january six commission
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committee select hearing is how -- to not consider role to those that have remove themselves from the project of democratic governance in their actions. which is the exist exactly decisions the speaker made today when she called the speaker a moron. that's next. that's next.
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richmond's top doctor said authored by members of the house and staff will be asked to wear a mask on the house floor. the house dropped its mask mandate six weeks ago, but with the delta variant driving infections, the capital position talked about snow policy. this policy reversal has ruffled feathers among republicans, has republican leader kevin mccarthy saying quote, the threat of bringing mass back is not a decision based on the science, but a decision come -- hundred up by liberal governments who want to live in a perpetual pandemic state. i don't think anyone wants to
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live in a perpetual pandemic state, that's why we're trying to get everybody vaccinated. it should be noted, the cdc changed its mandate yesterday, it's on the viral load of those infected with the variant and it should be with doctor fauci. the cdc is now saying if you are indoors in the area of high transmission, wear a mask, because that data. mccarthy like any republicans are opposed about any reason -- taking the floor without a mask to invade against the tyranny gives the new rules. house speaker nancy pelosi today was asked about what mccarthy said, i want to play her response for. you it's clear she just about had it with business as usual. listen to what she calls them here at the end. >> mask mandate, speaker pelosi, any response to backlash? >> that's the view of the capital physician, show
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capacity mandate from him. i'm nothing to say about that except the honor, it wear the mask. >> he says it's against the science? >> he's such a moron. >> [laughs] speaker of the house calling the minority leader moran. >> i said earlier in my comments, science, science, science, science. to see that wearing a mask is not based on science, i think is not wise. that was my comment. >> here's the thing, democrats on the capitol, have been working alongside a sizeable faction of republicans who seem intent on risking the safety, and making excuses for the mob that threaten their. life democrats on capitol hill seem pretty thick of it. now they are openly acknowledging you can't just do business with somebody especially when they are a danger to everyone who works in
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the building. camilla dial appall's -- and she joins me now. i don't want to over psychologists here, congresswoman, but there is an aspect that have been covering this night in a night, out there's something talks again unresolved in the building you work in, which is that a violent mob stormed the capitol, threaten the lives of the people inside, and a significant amount of your colleagues that voted with them to overturn an election and are making excuses for, then we had every day you go in and just pretend everything is okay. it doesn't seem like it's going great. >> it's not, chris. i will tell, you i was on the floor tonight with a colleague, a democratic colleague, and i think we have all kind of had it. there is this -- the country has to reckon with would happen on january 6th. there is a giant gap between our colleagues, who are saying it didn't happen, and that there are tourists as you heard
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jamie raskin questioned him about, and then we know that it happened it was there, it was real. we are trying to get real work done for the american people and we are trying to get the truth of january 6th and what happened, who was involved so it will never happen again, we're also trying to legislate for these multiple crises americans are facing across the country. americans need childcare, they need health care, -- expire on saturday, there will be millions of people who are homeless. meanwhile, a republican kong colleagues are passing motion to adjourn just for the heck a bit and delaying everything that we are doing, and refusing to vote for the things that will really change americans lives. >> there was a day-long temper tantrum on the mask guidance which again, i guess i could be, like i understand thinking oh, well, this is unjustified, or being annoyed by, it but just, i don't know, suck it out.
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there is stuff to do. you have also got i think 100% of democrats are vaccinated. >> that's right. >> republicans are about 65%. that's another thing where it would be good for everybody to get vaccinated there but, here we are again. >> but if they just went and got a shot? what if they got vaccinated? it would take less time, then they would have to throw a little temper tensions on the floor. this is more snow serious than just them. their behavior, and their lies about january, six, covid, masks about vaccines, they are fueling a rise in cases across the country, which is feeling a rise in deaths across the country, which is fueling the need for us to need masks. we have been vaccinated, but we are supposed to say, okay, you guys, not only are you not
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getting vaccinated, you are not telling your constituents to get vaccinated and your finding with us about masks when lives are at stake. january six, who lives towards stake. so yes, the anger about the environment in which we are cooperating here and operating under, at the end of the day and homes are democracy, constitution, an american people. it's incredibly difficult. you can sense the frustration. >> i will hold you for another second. two more quick questions. one is about mccarthy pulling republicans off the select committee that you are on, which is select committee about economic inequality, and economic disparity. this was i think, in process of pelosi's decision to block some of the members he made to the collection at one six. my thought yesterday, and sort of went better without them. this is kind of a pro -- plus, isn't it?
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>> that's kind of my thought as well to be frank. we want people who are committed to the truth. we want people on the select committee on january six that are committed to the truth, and there are two republicans on their. if kevin mccarthy can't put people on their committed to the, truth that's the way it is. here on the select committee on inequality, we want people who are committed to the truth that there is extensive inequality, in the worst inequality we have seen since the great depression in the united states. if they can't even bring themselves to be on a select committee about that issue, then i think they are showing their cards. they are not going to do it for anything. >> final question, quickly, bipartisan infrastructure framework has been announced in the senate side. the congressional progressive caucus in which you remember and leadership if i'm not mistaken put out a statement -- >> the chair. >> look, the chair, right. we are saying, we are not yes votes on this until we are
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guarantee that other parts of the agenda are going to happen. one is the communication like right now? >> we said three months ago, the progressive caucus, we were not gonna vote for any bipartisan deal unless there was a reconciliation deal that had our five priorities in it past. we are in the same place. we have barely seen the bipartisan bill, and it was decided on by 4% of the entire congress. so, unless you see the reconciliation bill passed with their five priorities, we are not gonna be able to move the bipartisan bill forward. >> congresswoman, that is useful for when i talk to buttigieg, thank you so much. >> thank, you chris. take care. >> all right, don't go anywhere. more on the big news on the presidents bipartisan infrastructure deal with, the afro mentioned secretary transportation minister pete buttigieg. she joins me next. e joins me next.
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a huge step forward for the biden agenda tonight as the bipartisan infrastructure deal move forward in the senate. 17 republicans cleared the filibuster, 60 vote threshold to begin debate on the bill. afterwards, majority leader chuck schumer reaffirmed his commitment to passing the both bipartisan bill and the democrat spending bill for reconciliation before the senate goes on vacation. >> my goal remains to pass both a bipartisan infrastructure bill, and a bucket regular -- budget resolution during the work period, both. it might take some long nights, might eat into our weekends, but we are going to get the job done and we are on track. >> joining me now, secretary of transportation pete buttigieg. secretary, it's not the wisest thing to weasel your way through politics based on how people you don't like think about things, but i will say
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donald trump hates this deal which makes me inclined toward favoring it and the u.s. chamber makes -- loves that which makes me skeptical. what do you feel? >> you have the u.s. chamber of congress in the afl-cio saying the same thing. one exciting thing about this bill, you have all these strange bed fellows coming together because it's so clear we need to do it. business,, labor do democrats, maybe not the former president, but other republicans, and so many people across the spectrum and country, know that we need to make this happen. we've been talking about infrastructure deals in washington for years and years, now we have an opportunity to make it happen not just a run-of-the-mill infrastructure bill, but something i think will be a generational investigation and historic opportunity on job creation, climate, and a lot of other things at stake and transportation for the future. >> i want to talk about some of
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the private aspects which are on, or not included. just so people have a sense of some of the lines here that they want to begin the top lines are just sort of numbers but you have roads and bridges, power infrastructure, clean energy, rail and amtrak, modernizing transport, you have electric vehicle charters, one thing i keep thinking about, we're talk about roads bridges major projects things like that, are these going to be built within an eye towards with the climate over the next 25 years looks like? it seems like that is crucial not just that we modernize and get away from fossil fuels, but the things that we are building our climate resilient for a world getting much hotter and wider. >> exactly right. we have got to build resilient infrastructure. yes, we are working to make sure actually was not getting worse than it is. it's already abundance. in portland, they had to shut the transit system down because the cables were in danger of
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melting. in new york, the hudson river tunnels, that has to do was see water -- during the storm. we know there is more to what's this came from. we are seeing so many dealing with fires, floods, droughts, we are going to expect that we are shaping the dollars that congress is hopefully about to pass. we expect that communities can demonstrate the way something should be design for the future isn't going to be the same as the past. if you keep putting a roadblock getting washed, out maybe it needs to be dealt in a different way. different way. take a listen to your own words. >> we have live this in my industrial midwest hometown, by generation has live this as long as we have been alive.
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and it's only accelerated. science tells us we have 12 years before we reach the horizon of catastrophe when it comes to our climate. >> now, there are some climate provisions in this legislation but if you look at the white house's initial proposal, a lot of things the white house really cares about clean energy standard being one of them, were very focused on them in the show, are not in this bill. what should we make of that? are those priorities being abandoned? >> not at all, and this is only one part of the administration's policy, obviously we have the budget resolution, the reconciliation framework coming, up and a lot of work to do on things like the clean energy standard, and other pieces of tax policy. you mentioned that clip, it's probably a year or two old, so it's more like ten years now if you're lucky. and again, if some of the words effects of climate change already happening right now. what i would emphasize in this bill, even though it's not considered the climate bill, is
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that every transportation decision is also a climate decision weather week on that or not. because transportation is the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases in the u.s. economy. which is why we're creating the biggest investment in public transport in the history of transit, that is also a climate decision. when we are talking about the kind of investments of ports to make it easier to move goods over water to make more climate friendly, that's a communist surgeon. when we're investing in transit agencies, we and acquiring -- into making that we were making sure that we meet the aggressive goals that the president set out when it comes to climate. and this is one of the reasons why things -- it's important to understand that it's not like the 2009 stimulus package where we did a lot of good work and transportation. that was about dealing with the economic crisis at the moment. this is about preparing this
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bill for the future. part of it is about jobs that will be created almost overnight, but this will keep make sure in the thirties forties fifties as well. >> secretary pete buttigieg, secretary of transportation, thank you for your time tonight. >> thanks for having. the >> next, the disinformation death toll, the new data that shows the people that get their news from back facebook are less likely to get vaccinated. that is next. that is next align contains a quality probiotic developed by gastroenterologists. it adds more good bacteria to your gut to naturally help soothe your occasional bloating, gas and abdominal discomfort. support your digestive health with align, the #1 doctor recommended probiotic. try align today. and try new align fast acting biotic gummies. helps soothe occasional digestive upsets in as little as 7 days.
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♪ put a little love in your heart - david ruffin ♪ my bad, my bad... good race! -you too! you were tough out there... thank you, i'm getting you next time though. oh i got you, i got you. hamblin goes down. d'agostino helps hamblin back up. are you okay? -yeah. even the international covid
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cases are in extreme. things are approaching as bad as they have ever been. just this week louisiana which is one of the lowest vaccination rates in the countryside's highest spike in a single day, in covid hospitalizations in the beginning of the pandemic. why are people so unprotected? in the last two months the covid states project asked about peoples vaccination status. in total 68% said they were vaccinated, 18% -- 40% of the might get vaccinated 18% said they won't get vaccinated. these numbers will shift in regards to where people. where they got their news.
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if people watched the barnett ministration, msnbc, cnn are much more likely to get vaccinated. people who watch for fox news only 64% were vaccinated,. there's a big difference. there it gets worse if people get their covid news from facebook, 20% do not get vaccinated. the thing, is a lot of people peddling vaccine disinformation on sources like facebook are making a lot of money doing. it i want to bring in to new york times reporters who have been following this, max fisher who wrote about the booming shadow disinformation business, and share franco who will -- she coauthored an ugly truth, inside facebooks battle for donation which is out. it's good to have you both on the program. cheryl, let me start with you because i found your piece, i found a lot of discussion about
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disinformation fizzle abstract. the numbers feel hard to get around, i've been a little distrustful of them because it's never clear wet anyone else. so your piece was nicely conquer ties-ing. so just describe who this individual is and what is reaches? >> we want to profile one person and the most inflow when shull person in the anti-vax trend, it can be really a excuse or when we're talking about people who are anti vaccine activists. but this is one individual who has been doing this for over a decade. he has found this gray area between social media sites where you can promote anti vaccine ideology and still have over million followers on just one of his facebook pages. although we found 17 pick facebook pages that he was running. and through those he is able to seed and spread this idea that covid vaccines aren't safe and that people should not be taking them. >> his name is dr. maricopa, he
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has published over 600 articles on facebook that cast doubt on the vaccines. what how do we get our arms around the scale of his reach? we it's hard we were looking for a date on the story and trying to figure out exactly how many people he was. reaching when he did ultimately was look at a single post and how that one post sort of reverberates through the internet. so when you look at similar posts and at within hours of coming online people will be sharing it or interacting with it, you can see just how wide his reaches. and i think what's important about him specifically is that he finds a way to evade facebooks rules and stay online. he manages to skirt just under the radar. he doesn't say covid vaccines will kill you, he asks the question, we'll, do you think covid vaccines will kill you? and then he gets an answer which very much suggests that yes, they will. but it's because he's not
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dating it that facebook is not taking him off line. >> this is a cowardly dodge, honed by a whole bunch of people working in the space. max, your piece compliments in some ways was fascinating to me because i did know this industry existed, but their firms basically, straddling traditional marketing in the shuttle world of -- selling surf services -- sowing discord meddling in elections, seed false narratives, and push viral conspiracies, mostly on social media. who are those people and how do you hire them? >> so they are pretty easy to hire, that's kind of their whole proposition. anyone with ten, 20, $50,000 and access to dark web account, now you can have your own russians meddling in the 2016 election style disinformation campaign. the firms that are running, it it's a the wild rest, it's a
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growth industry, it's very easy for anybody to get into with just software off the shelf, just buying some data and getting on to the platforms -- there was one that was a watch to d.c. lobbying form that was doing a disinformation campaign on behalf of some of right wing politicians and latin america. but a lot of them are email spammers that have just found, this is a slightly more lucrative business, it's not hard to get into. and a lot of them are marketing companies, it's a really wide range to how it speaks to how attractive it is. >> so you've spoken about the platforms trying to shut them, down when i was reading your piece, the cops thought i kept having, and the platforms of, agree there's a lot of content moderation calls that are gray areas that are tough, this doesn't seem one. someone being paid to specifically use the platform for this and another having a
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hard time doing. g. to root out and identify an expose these campaigns and they're doing so publicly, which i think is kind of admirable. but at the same time if you talk to experts and american officials who track this stuff, will say, for all the work that these platforms do on the back, and the design of their technology in the design of their platforms is really a big part of what makes this possible. and a lot of the firms that got into it got into it specifically because disinformation is something that works very well on social media. and that's with the russians found in 2016, is that -- there algorithms and design privilege conspiracies and that content which is why it's so easy to get into. it >> that gets back to cheryl, what you tracked, which is this is kind of a gray area, this is someone who is kind of managing
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to tiptoe up to but not crossing the line. and, again, it's a tricky thing. the epidemiological data that we have on stuff is constantly moving and you could just have a facebook page that actually had just reports of people who had bad experiences with the vaccine. they exist. you would clearly be doing something nefarious but it's also kind of true. i just don't know how equipped facebook is to make these calls. >> that's obviously something we cover and our book, and we show over and over again that they're not really -- big tend to be very reactive once they have a problem. then they try to figure out a policy. listening to max just speak now, i really something that bridges are works, is that there's a lot of money to be made in. this whether you're doing dissent faux fur higher or an anti vaccine activist, he's made over 100 million dollars
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overzealous filing. we're talking about a way to become an incredibly wealthy person by giving people false information. >> max fisher and cheryl franco, great reporting both of, you thanks for being on the show. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is all in for this evening, the rachel maddow show starts right now with ali. right now with ali. evening. "the rachel maddow show" is next. ali velshi is filling in >> good evening, chris. thanks to you at home for we'll be talking to senator john tester, one of the senators who helped negotiate the deal.ea hopefully he can walk us through what's in the bill. first we've got breaking news right off the top.p. here's a brand-new headline. as trump pushed for probe in th 2020 election, he called acting attorney rosen almost


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