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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 27, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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yourself. >> fredo, you're my older brother and i love you. but don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again. ever. >> ever. and that's tonight's reid out. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> there was an attack carried out on january 6th, and a hit man sent them. >> the true horror of the insurrection. >> i was more afraid to work at the capitol than my entire deployment to iraq. >> the nature of the crowd and their supporters. >> the indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. >> and the demand for accountability. >> i need you guys to address if anyone in power had a role in
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this. >> tonight damning testimony from officers on the front line as trump supporters attacked the capitol. >> then the republicans who take democracy seriously. >> this cannot continue to be a partisan fight. >> do we hate our political adversaries more than we love our country and revere our constitution? >> and the clown show that was chased away from their own press conference. plus -- >> i can tell you the folks back home are down with masks. >> once again the cdc revises the mask guidance. dr. fauci joins me to explain why when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. you know, i find that these days it is so important to simply bear witness to what is true. to say what it is we clearly and unmistakably see in front of our own eyes. and that's because it feels like there's a constant effort by so many forces to make us doubt
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ourselves, to make us doubt what we know we have seen. to make us doubt what we know to be true. that is especially important with regards to january 6th. we all watched what happened that day. we've seen the footage of it for the past six months, read the pleadings in court. and yet there's been this insidious attempt to erase and rewrite what happened. it's been a barrage of lies from donald trump on down about how january 6th was a big party with a bunch of harmless, loving people. today more than six months after that attack on the capitol, four officers who were on the ground in the line of fire on january 6th bore witness to the truth. they saw what they saw. they know what they know, and they would not let anyone deter them from telling those simple facts about the horrifying, unprecedented battle to protect the capitol. one of those officers who testified today at the first hearing of the house select committee investigating january 6th is someone we've had on the
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show, michael fanone. officer fanone began his career with capitol police being called to serve in law enforcement after the september 11th attacks. a nearly 20-year veteran of the metropolitan police department in washington, d.c., fanone is an officer who works in plain clothes. an involvement of work involves narcotics or violent crime where he's worked undercover or as a lead case officer. today fanone said he thought prior to january 6th he'd seen it all many times over, but he did expect the attack that day. when he saw the comotion he raced to put on his uniform for the first day in nearly a decade and went to the capitol. officer fanone was grabbed, beaten, tased by rioters who also attempted to take his firearm. he lost consciousness, transport today the hospital where doctors said he'd suffered a heart attack. he now suffers from post
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traumatic distress disorder. but as he told the select committee he say also unprepared for the ensuing storm of lies. >> what makes the struggle harder and more painful is to know so many of my fellow citizens including so many of the people i put my life at risk to defend are down-playing or outright denying what happened. i feel like i went to hell and back to protect them and the people in this room are telling me it wasn't that bad. the difference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. my law enforcement career prepared me to cope with some of the aspects of this experience. being an officer you know your life is at risk whenever you walk out the door. even if you don't expect otherwise law-abiding citizens
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to take up arms against you. but nothing, truly nothing has prepared me to address those elected members of our government to continue to deny the events of that day, and in doing so betray their oath of office. >> michael fanone's fellow officer at the metropolitan police department, that's the d.c. police department, daniel hodges also testified today. just 32 years old officer hodges is a member of the mpd civil disturbance unit. on the morning of january 6th his unit was assigned to maintain high visibility near presidents park where the president at the time, donald trump, was speaking at a rally. early in the afternoon as the riot began they were ordered to respond to the capitol where this utterly horrific scene took place. officer hodges is the man you see here being crushed in a door frame as he attempted to keep the mob from entering the building. officer hodges described those people as terrorists, and he
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told the committee about the many attacks they waged on him and his fellow officers. they threw a heavy object at him, hitting him in the head and making him disoriented. another attempted to gouge out his right eye. and yet some of those terrorists claimed to be supporters oof the police. >> tarests were scaling the scaffolding and attempting to breach the waist-high metal fence, and that was the only barrier we had aside from orselves. a sea of people was punctuated by flags. there was gad son flags. it was clear the terrorists perceived themselves to be christians. another red jesus is my savior, trump is my president. another, jesus is king. one flag read don't give up the ship. another got crossed rifles beneath a skull emblazoned with
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the patterns of the american flag. to my perpetual confusion i saw the thin blue line flag more than once being carried by the terrorists as they ignored our commands and continued to assault us. >> members of the capitol police were of course the first line of defense on january 6th and faced some of the worst attacks. like sergeant gonell who was the first in his family to graduate college. he joined the capitol police after serving in the army to iraq. sergeant donel sustained injuries to both his hands, his left shoulder, his left kafl and right foot in the course of the day defending the capitol. at one point he too was crushed by rioters and could feel himself losing oxygen. he told the committee members he remembers thinking this is how
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i'm going to die. today he describes the emotional and physical anguish he felt finally coming home to his family at the end of that awful day. >> i arrived home at nearly 4:00 a.m. on january 7th. i had to push my wife away from me because she wanted to hug me. and i told her no because of all the chemical my uniform had on. i couldn't sleep because the chemical reactivated after i took a shower and my skin was burning. i finally fell asleep two hours later completely physically and mentally exhausted. yet by 8:00 a.m. i was already
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back on my way back to the capitol. and i continued to work for 15 consecutive days until after the inauguration. >> the other member of the capitol police testifying today was private first class harry dunn. he's a 13-year veteran of the force. he grew up in the suburbs of washington, d.c., joined the capitol police after graduating from james madison university with a masters degree. on january 6th as rioters breached the fencing of the capitol, officer dunn ran into action wearing a 20 pound steel chest plate and carrying an m4 rifle. in his testimony today dunn described the violent and racial abuse he endured from trump's mob. and a warning here the language used here is shocking. we felt, however, it was important to play officer dunn's own testimony as he spoke it unsensored. >> i told them to just leave the
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capitol, and in response they yelled, no man, this is our house. president trump invited us here. we're here to stop the steal. joe biden not the president. nobody voted for joe biden. i'm a law enforcement officer and i do my best to keep politics out of my job. but in this circumstance i responded, well i voted for joe biden. does my vote not count? am i nobody? that prompted a torrent of racial epithets. one woman in a pink maga shirt yelled, you hear that guys, this nigger voted for joe biden. and the crowd, perhaps around 20 people joined in screaming, boo, fucking nigger. no one had ever, ever called me
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a nigger while wearing the uniform of a capitol police officer. in the days following the attempted insurrection other black officers shared with me they their own stories of racial abuse on january 6th. one officer told me he had never in his entire 40 years of life been called a nigger to his face, and that streak ended on january 6th. >> these officers are all veterans. they've all been around the block. you can hear in their voices, however, seen in their eyes none of them had ever dealt with anyone like this before because nothing like this has ever happened in america, honestly. that kind of scene, no crowd anywhere is allowed to engage in hand to hand combat with police officers hours, cursing at them, beating them, threatening to take their guns. i've covered crowds that were on the threshold of some kind of violent action, and they have been tear gassed or chased out
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or had rubber bullets fired at them. what happened on the steps for four hours, there's no precedent for what happened and for what they endured that day. the third ranking democrat in the house of congress is congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. and he joins me now. congressman, let me first start by getting your reaction to what you saw today in that committee testimony. >> i saw four patriots, four servants, four people who take to heart the work they've undertaken to help protect this bastion of liberty, this capitol building, that it's held in such high esteem. they saw it under assault, and
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they thought it was their responsibility to do what was necessary to preserve it and it's a shame that they have been so disrespected all in just silliness, the kind of stuff that you would never believe adults -- i was not able to be at the hearing in realtime because i was conducting a similar hearing for the select committee on the coronavirus. but i have watched those tapes since. and i believe that it would be in the best interest of this
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committee to continue its pursuit of the truth. we've got to find out who and why. we know what, when and where. we've got to find out who and why. >> i wanted to get your reaction in particular to the testimony we played from officer dunn there. that's not the kind of thing we play on television very often and understandably, i think. but i've heard people call into question, oh, when you say the crowd was white nationalists or it was a white nationalist insurrection people say what are you saying. and that testimony from officer dunn, which was corroborated by a lot of black officers about what they faced on that day and as someone who worked in that building for many, many years and worked on the project basically of creating a multiracial democracy in its current form, what do you feel
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when you hear that testimony from officer dunn? >> -- said that peoples experiences are the best teachings. i know officer dunn's experiences. i have experienced much of what he was talking about in this hearing. and i can tell you it's not a good feeling. but you don't give up your pursuit of it. you try to do what's necessary to bring people around and do what's in the best interest of this country. and i know officer dunn will continue what's necessary to make this country a better place. i would hope my republican colleagues will take heed and do what is necessary, to join in
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our pursuit, for general mccarthy to take all his republicans off of the committee says to me he can't stand the truth. he doesn't want to hear or see the truth. and that doesn't make any sense to me. this betrays everything this country stands for. >> yeah, kevin mccarthy along with mitch mcconnell and a whole bunch of other republicans today were asked questions about questions in the hearing. a lot of versions of i didn't get a chance to watch it, i was busy doing other things. it seems quite evident that the approach to this is to either sort of attack it in bad faith or just pretend it's not happening. and i don't -- can you imagine any other republicans essentially putting their shoulder to the wheel behind this effort other than the two who are on the committee, or has it been polarized in precisely
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those lines? >> well, i think it's been polarized. i really believe that this is part of a much broader undertaking. and that's why this committee is so necessary. i -- you know, i spent four years in the southern governors office, and i can tell you that there is a lot of work to be done here. we've got to get to the bottom of this because i think that all that you've seen today as bad as it is, there's much more much more to be uncovered in this. there's much, much more truth to come out. >> congressman jim clyburn of the state of south carolina third ranking democrat in the house of representatives, thank you so much, sir. >> thank you for having me. much more to come tonight including committee member adam schiff on what the officers want
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them to do. when we return. >> i use an analogy to describe what i want as a hitman. if a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. but not only does the hitman go to jail but the person who hired them does. there was an attack carried out on january 6th, and a hitman sent them. i want you to get to the bottom of that. i want you to get to the bottom of that. here we go. ♪♪ ♪ so i'd like to know where you got the notion ♪ ♪ to rock the boat don't rock the boat, baby ♪ ♪ rock the boat don't tip the boat over ♪ ♪ rock the boat don't rock the boat, baby ♪ ♪ rock the boat ♪ see disney's jungle cruise. it's time to rock the boat, america.
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today was the first day of hearing for the committee to investigate january 6th. and while there are only two republicans on the committee what we saw today felt much more actually bipartisan. and they were both picked for the committee by minority leader kevin mccarthy and rejected by speaker pelosi. instead of a wrestling match or benghazi part 900 today we got actual republicans, conservative republicans, liz cheney of wyoming, adam kinzinger of illinois just there taking the investigation seriously. >> if those responsible are not held accountable, and if congress does not act responsibly, this will remain a cancer on our constitutional republic. undermining the peaceful transfer of power at the heart of our democratic system. we'll face the threat of more
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violence in the months to come and another january 6th every four years. will we adhere to the rule of law? will we respect the rulings of our courts? will we preserve the peaceful transition of power? or will we be so blinded by partisanship that we throw away the miracle of america? do we hate our political adversaries more than we love our country and revere our constitution? >> you guys may like individually feel a little broken. you all talk about the effects you have to deal with and talk about the impact of that day, but you guys won. you guys held. you know, democracies are not defined by our bad days. we're defined by how we come back from bad days. >> when speaker pelosi chose liz
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cheney and then chose adam kinzinger over the objections of their own republican party, it was pretty unprecedented. you can't quite find a perfect precedent for it, but i think today showed it paid off. it was respectful and generally bipartisan, and honestly seems like everyone is better off for it. i want to bring in one of the democratic members of that committee, congressman adam schiff of california. and first just start on that. there was a lot of back and forth and a lot of betway press sort of second guessing what went on with kevin mccarthy's appointments. two of them blocked by the speaker and then this arrangement you ended up with. to me it felt like i was transported to a different universe today and i didn't long to go to the alternate universe of jim jordan up on the dais. how do you feel?
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>> that was exactly my feeling walking out of that hearing today is my god we got to hear from the witnesses. all the committee members, democrats and republicans were interested in getting to the truth. they were interested in what the witnesses had to say was about them and their experience. and it was so, you know, breathtaking in that it was how a hearing should be done. so, yes, very different experience than if we had the mccarthy disrupters on the committee. and i think it was a tribute to these officers the way it should have been, that we heard what they had to say. >> i want to play something that congresswoman cheney said. she has been very clear about subpoenas and the use of those subpoenas. she even mentioned today the possibility of members of congress being called as witnesses. here's what she had to say. take a listen. >> congressman jordan may well be a material witness. he's somebody who was involved
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in a number of meetings in the lead up to what happened on january 6th, involved in planning for january 6th, certainly for the objections that day as he's said publicly. so he may well be a material witness. >> can you imagine calling members of congress as witnesses in this committee? >> i can. i think that all of the members are determined to get to the truth and follow the evidence where it leads. people with relevant knowledge of what went into the planning of that -- that violent attack on the capitol, they may very well be material witnesses as liz cheney has to say. so no one is off the table. and, you know, at the end of the day if we're going to produce a comprehensive report that makes recommendations about how to protect the country going forward, we can't afford to say we won't look at this area, we're going to willfully have a blind spot. so, yes, we'll go where the evidence leads us. >> i have to say and i don't
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know if you're going to be able to answer this honestly on the record on tv, but i'll ask it anyway. in my conversations with members of congress both on-air and off, on the record and off and in my reporting on this, you always come up against this sense from people that there's more to that day than we currently know and that they kind of know there's more than we know but can't say anything about it. that is what i have encountered. now, that might not be true. it might be. why does that keep coming up? why do i keep getting that sense in every interaction i have reporting on that day? >> well, i'm not going to give you that sense, chris, because i really have a lot of unanswered questions, and i had a -- hadn't predetermined conclusions.
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they believed that the election was stolen. and a lot of my colleagues in congress that were pushing the big lie knew it was a lie. and in that sense they're as culpable as anyone because they understood that they were laying the foundation for, you know, a real diminution of our democracy, break down of our institutions. but in terms of whether we already know significant facts that are not public, i can't say that i do. we're trying to find out just in the intelligence committee before the select committee what the intelligence say, why were we so ill-prepared, and we still don't have the answers. >> there was a development today from the department of justice pertaining to department of justice policy about former trump administration officials testifying before the committee. now, normally this is sort of zealously guarded by the
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executive. they tend to take a broad interpretation of executive privilege and not love congress calling around them. but letter today to former acting attorney general jeffrey rosenstein saying extraordinary events in this matter constitute exceptional circumstances warranting accommodation in this case. how important is that to your committee? >> oh, it's very important. it means that one of the major obstacles we encounter over the last four years in getting answers may not be an obstacle. that is there may be people in the trump administration that we need to testify, and they may fight it, but we won't be fighting the justice department at the same time. and if it does go to court we'll have the justice department making the argument with us not against us. so that's huge. and you're right, it doesn't come easily, doesn't come naturally so the executive branch that wants to preserve even the possibility someday. so i consider that a very, very
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good sign. >> congressman adam schiff who's on that committee we'll be hearing more from you in the weeks and months ahead. thank you very much. >> thank you. don't go anywhere. much more to come ahead. >> there's a sentiment that's going around that says everybody's trying to make january 6th political. well, it's not a secret that it was political. they literally were there to stop the steal. so when people say it shouldn't be political, it is. it was and it is. political, it. it was and it is or baby wipes, or powders, try the cooling, soothing relief or preparation h. because your derriere deserves expert care. preparation h. get comfortable with it. welcome to allstate. (phone notification) where we've just lowered our auto rates. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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and they shouldn't be elected official anymore. >> that clip we just played there is from one of the u.s. capitol police officers testifying today about a truly ridiculous press conference held by representatives marjorie taylor greene of georgia, mat gaetz of florida, lumy gohmert of texas. congressman gaetz and his cohorts held their stunt event outside the department of justice in support of the mob that stormed the capitol. when a small group of protesters showed up, they managed to shut the whole thing down after only a few minutes led by a person seemingly very interested in mat gaetz's criminal investigation. >> they owe the people of this country the answers to the questions. >> we got to go. we need to end it. >> thank you. for those of you that really care about due process, thank
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is this america what you saw? >> everybody even sitting at this table fought a different battle that day, but it was all for the same war. and as black officers i believe we fought a different battle also. and the fact that we had our race attacked and just because of the way we looked, you know,
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to answer your question, frankly, i guess it is america. it shouldn't be, but i guess that's the way that things are. >> it's a question, of course, that famed civil rights organizer -- asked nearly 60 years ago is this america, where black people need to be treated as decent human beings. they both join me now. adam, you know, i couldn't get over the fact of how much race and racial animus and racial hatred and racism hung over the day. and i thought this -- i want to play what officer hodges who is himself white said when he was saying here's why i call them white nationalists. just take a listen to what
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officer hodges had to say. >> the crowd was overwhelmingly white males, usually a bit older, middle-aged, older but some younger. they didn't say anything especially xenophobic to me but to my black colleagues and anyone who's not white. and some of them would try to -- try to recruit me. one of them came up to me and said are you my brother. there are many known organizations with ties to white supremacy who had a presence there, and the three percenters, oath keepers, that kind of thing. and anyone i've ever -- people who associate with donald trump find more likely to subscribe to
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mat belief system. >> that moment, adam, where someone tried to recruit him, are you my brother, that was sort of to me one of the most jaw dropping moments of the whole day. >> yeah, look, there's a version of american nationalism that has always held this is white man's country and should remain a white man's country. and the police until 1965 were charged with enforcing that belief in much of the country. so it's not surprising that, you know, a few short decades later that there would be people that not only still believe that but want the police themselves to believe that think of the police as the political arm of what they believe to be true america, white christian america, the real america, the america that deserves to win every election regardless of whether or not they win the most votes. >> one of the things that was so surreal to me today, barbara,
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was we are a year-plus after the killing, the murder of george floyd, the protests afterwards, the backlash to those protests. and here you have this scene in which the sort of worst nightmare that donald trump and his political allies painted of the country is that there would be this unruly mob overrunning police officers. and here you have the thing actually happen in front of all our eyes being interrogated with these officers, this multiracial group of officers while the republicans sort of put their fingers in their ears. >> yeah, in fact, we heard some of the officers say that. you know, people who claim to support law and order are the very ones who are denying that this happened, who are portraying the crowd as ordinary tourists or a loving group. i think that the officers today did an excellent job of debunking some of those myths, talking about their injuries, talking about the weapons they saw and also debunking any claim
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that this was antifa or that this was black lives matters supporters or this was the fbi who was at the capitol that day. they said, no, these were trump supporters. they were there to stop the steal because donald trump asked them to. >> and that point that, i mean, i thought it was such an important moment, adam, officer dunn said, he said this was fundamentally politically, inescapably unavoidably political. and that's why republicans don't want to talk about because the leader of the republican party whipped up a violent mob to stop the peaceful transfer of power. that's what happened. >> i mean, there's no question it's political. it was a mob that was there to overturn the result of a democratic election because the person that they didn't want to win, won. i mean how could it not -- how could it not be political? i mean officers by resisting that political effort became
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traitors to the mob because their obligation -- in the mob's eyes their obligation was to uphold that racial hierarchy they skub scribe to, that they were expressing to the officers themselves. and when they refused to uphold that hierarchy, when they instead chose their oaths to the constitution of the united states rather than to this ethno nationalist version of the united states the united states subscribed to, they became traitors of the mob. and that, you know, fundamentally is an expression of the choice here between an america that is democratic, that recognizes the actual outcomes of elections and one that, you know, is the exclusive province of one particular ethnic and religious group. >> obviously as someone with history in criminal investigations, this sort of investigative portfolio here. today was incredibly -- i
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thought incredibly important of just the level setting of what the reality was that day. but there remain i feel there's so many things i feel i don't have a good handle on. >> yes, and i completely agree. today was the beginning but certainly not the end. and i think that even the officers in setting the stage as you said, raised some important questions that need to be answered. why were they so terribly outmanned that day? so i think we need to examine the intelligence failures. i think most of us who paid just a little bit of attention to the news knew that there would be a very great risk of danger that day at the capitol and yet somehow the fbi didn't know that. i think we need to look at that. i think we also need to look at why there was such a drastic delay between the time they realized things were out of hand at the capitol and the time the national guard actually showed up to provide that relief and clear the capitol. and then i think we also have to take a look at was there an organized effort to be there that day? we've seen some charges of some small conspiracy groups like the oath keepers and some others who
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conspired to obstruct an official proceeding, the vote count, but those are small groups. was there anyone taking a bigger picture funding this and citing it and i think those are some of the big themes that remain to be explored by this committee. >> finally, adam, the thing i kept finding is i reported on protests a lot and there's never been anything like what happened at the capitol because no other crowd of protesters is ever allowed to get anywhere within spitting distance of what that crowd was allowed to do. >> you know, we've had incidents like this maybe not as bad, but we've had incidents like this, you know, at other state capitols and throughout american history. there have been forms of political mob violence that have been intended to overturn the results of democratic elections. even in this committee uncovers
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nothing new. it's actually significant for the mere purpose of setting down an official record of what occurred and why it occurred. that is the only thing that the committee does then it would have been worth it. what you've seen over the past seven months is an effort by trump and the republican party to rewrite the history of this incident, why it happened, who was there and why they were there. and if all this committee does is set down a historical record that lasts into the future, that establishes beyond a shadow of a doubt, the intent behind this attempt to overthrow a democratic election because the mob viewed the voters who supported the rival candidate as fundamentally illegitimate and not truly american, if it only uncovers that record it would be worth it. >> thank you both for making time tonight. still to come, dr. anthony
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fauci on the surprise announcement from the cdc today. why vaccinated people are being urged to mask up again. that's next. don't go anywhere. again that's next. don't go anywhere. -v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your doctor about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b, do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your doctor.
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once again, centers for disease control has changed its guidance on masks and covid, announcing today all americans, including those fully vaccinated, some wear a mask inside areas with high transmission of the virus, which according to the community transmission map which highlights areas of high transmission in red, appears to be a whole big swath of the country. to help explain this change in policy, i'm joined by dr. anthony fauci, director of national institute of allergy and insuspicious diseases, chief medical adviser to president joe biden. dr. fauci, dr. walensky was saying at the announcement today that this was based on data they've been collecting in
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realtime about delta variant transmission. what's the data, and what about the data pushes towards this is the policy recommendation? >> okay, there are two aspects, chris. one, we know that the delta variant is considerably more efficient in transmitting from person to person than the original alpha variant that we have been dealing with, number one. the delta variant is the dominant variant in this country. 80%, 85%, 90% in some regions. more importantly, it is clear now when there are breakthrough infections, namely, people who are vaccinated but still get infected with the delta variant -- which happens, because no vaccine is 100% effective -- we've learned, clearly now, without a doubt, that people who are vaccinated, get a breakthrough infection, actually have enough virus in
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their nasal pharynx, can transmit it to other people. right now the way you correctly said, even if you are vaccinated, you need to wear a mask in indoor public settings in the areas that have a high degree of transmissibility. namely, the orange and red areas of the cdc designation. >> so when we spoke about the decision by the cdc to say, you didn't have to mask indoors if you were vaccinated, the key driver there was data about virus transmission amongst those who are vaccinated. you were on the program and there was a little bit of a question. we knew that in the testing for the clinical trials and the real-world testing, this was doing a very good job of preventing severe illness and hospitalization. there was more question about whether you had viral load to transmit. the data came back saying you
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don't, really, and it's okay to be indoors. >> right. >> now -- so i guess the data is just different with delta. but do you understand why people might feel a little whip-sawed? >> sure. >> between the last announcement and this one? >> yeah, it's thoroughly understandable. but there really is a pretty clear explanation of it. and here are the data. when you go back 60 days or the two months ago, when you look at the level of virus in the nasopharynx of a person who's vaccinated and gets a breakthrough infection, it was considerably less than the level of virus of an unvaccinated person. the data were clear. now that we have a delta variant, that has changed the entire landscape. because when you look at the level of virus in the nasopharynx of a vaccinated person who gets a breakthrough infection with delta, it is exactly the same as the level of
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virus in an unvaccinated person who's infected. >> oh. >> that's the problem. so those data are very compelling. and that triggered the change in the cdc guideline. >> that is fascinating to me. because i know basically nothing about medicine. but i guess my intuition would be that the viral load would correlate to severity of illness. what i'm hearing from you is you've got a situation in which delta is producing a higher viral load and higher viral load shedding by orders of magnitude, if the data we have is to be believed, and yet not leading to severe illness in the way that you would fear, right? >> right. >> that the big fear was that you'd have a -- it would essentially evade the vaccine. >> right. chris, you nailed it. that's exactly what it is. that the antibody response, the immune response that your body makes that needs to block virus in the upper airway, needs to be
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much more powerful than the immune response that protects your lungs. in other words, you need a lower level of protection. the lung is more easily protected than the upper airway. >> right. >> we know that from animal studies. it's very, very clear. >> so i guess the last point here is, do you feel like you should -- there's a kind of meta-communicative point to make here which is, this stuff's going to change. this is a fairly dynamic situation and is going to continue to be. we're not -- it's not like we're going to just turn the page on coronavirus. because there might be new variants, there might be different seasonalities. you know, that's going to be part of life. >> well, chris, it doesn't have to be. if the overwhelming majority of the people in this country get vaccinated, we could nail this down by just crushing it.
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the problem we have, chris, that you and i have discussed multiple times on your program, right now we have 100 million people in the united states who are eligible, who are not getting vaccinated. that's the problem. >> yeah. yes. look at vermont where they are at 85% plus, and they have crushed this thing. that could be all of us. dr. anthony fauci, thank you, appreciate it. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. "the rachel maddow show" starts with ali velshi in for rachel. >> that conversation with dr. fauci on viral load was compelling and fascinating and i'm glad you went further down that road than one typically goes in primetime news. thank you, sir, have an excellent evening. >> i appreciate it, but -- >> go ahead. >> thank you. i feel like i actually understand it now. >> that's exactly what it meant. i was listening to it thinking, i don't know why he's going down this road. but i'm smarter for it and i appreciate it. thank you, my friend, have a good evening. thanks to you at home for

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