tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC July 22, 2021 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
you, you are already out of time to go to bed tonight. i knew the opening ceremony new for the olympics was tomorrow, i had not done the math though, and i did not know because of the time difference, you know what time the opening ceremony starts for the olympics, seven in the morning. 7 am eastern. actually nbc, the coverage starts at 6:55 eastern. so you are officially have no time to go to bed tonight. you should just settle in, you're gonna be up all night. the next thing you're going to watch is the last word. and our friend ali of she is going to be there for. night >> we're gonna do the thing that we did in college, we're going to go to this -- then we're gonna watch the last word, then all in, and then rachel maddow again. people are going to be up to watch the opening ceremony and it will be a moment of honest
competition in our world. we're gonna watch on his competition for the next couple of weeks and i'm excited for. that >> there is a reason why we love sports because we love meritocratic competition and that is what it is, and if there's a reason we love it, that's why. >> have a good night. rachel >> thanks. >> tonight we are sounding the alarm now is the time to protect the right to vote. everyone's right to vote, not next, week know what's the nonsense. the fraud in arizona -- not when the next election comes around, but in fact, now. each moment wasted is another moment for republicans to stop more of us from exercising that right. and that's how it's going to go. in a brand-new report, the justice finds that just since the start of this year, 2021, 18 states have passed 30 laws to restrict voting access. 18. we're only halfway through the year. you can bet more coming. last, night president biden reiterated that he would not
advocate for getting rid of or weakening the filibuster in order to pass voter protections. he said, and i quote, i want to make sure that we bring along not just all the democrats, we bring along republicans, who i know no better. they know better than this. and. quote i'm sorry to tell you, mister president, but republicans apparently do not know better. just listen to yourself. >> to me, this is simple, this is with subversion. it's the most dangerous threat to voting and the integrity of free and fair elections in our history. >> that's a really good speech. but the national constitutional center he had all the right points. except how to fix. it because republicans don't know better. well, i don't know, maybe they do know better, they just don't care. the point, the associated press reviewed more than 3 million ballots cast in arizona and the 2020 election and found that 182 possible voter fraud cases
under review. when anything looks on usual they say looks like a voter fraud. out of those, only four have been charged. two registered democrats, two registered republicans. no one has been convicted, no votes in arizona were vote counted twice. but republicans in the state, still after these months, are carrying on this fraud in maricopa county. they don't know better. you can knock down their election conspiracies over again even in the court of law and it will still tell you that there is fraud. it is embarrassing, it is shameful. republicans used to be afraid of shame, but now the entire gop says the quiet part out loud, shame be damned. it's why similar idiotic -- and wisconsin. they want to subvert the will of the people to stay in power. i'd like to wait for republicans to wake up and do
the right, thing but that is not going to happen, they don't know better, mister president. but they do know is that their efforts to keep voting safe are working. not keeping voting safe, they're just working to keep people away from ballots. more people in more states are gonna find it harder to vote the next time they go to the polls because of voter security efforts by the gop. and those people are, by and, large people of color, students, busy working moms. so folks, democrats have got to meet the moment but the moment demands. no half measures, no water down bills, democrats must blow up the filibuster. we or if you're a traditional and you like the filibuster, just carve out an exception for the week -- i'm not an optimistic, i don't think that this will change the minds of joe manchin, or christian cinema, but the alarm must be sounded by you as much
as by me. over, and over again. if senator democrats eliminate the filibuster rule and passed the for the people act, the ability for eligible americans to vote will be protected. if they don't, more americans will find their right be diminished. that might not seem obvious, today what is diminished? mean to have the right to vote or not? it discourages people from voting, and intimidates them, it makes it hard for them to vote. some of you might really not get wet is so urgent about this moment. you might have never had a hard time voting, and never had a hard time. voting you've never been stopped at the polls. but just because it doesn't happen to your tummy doesn't mean it should be happening to anyone in this country. it is in the constitution, you should be outraged for the people whose rights are being diminished. and two, just because it hasn't happened to you yet, doesn't mean it cannot happen to you in the future.
the right to vote is not a given and if someone's right to vote is curtailed or threatened, the overall will of the people is threatened. so get up and sound the alarm like i am, this country has always always tried to move toward a more perfect union. people have died for that. the least we can do is not stay quiet and let republicans destroy that. heading off our discussion tonight are pennsylvania state representative michael can jada and look cliff albright he's the host of the podcast black power we visited. thank you so much for being here. representative ro khanna you had a moment was saying let's stop tweeting about the bs about this, let's talk tweeting about the john lewis and what -- if the states get away with what they are, doing that is the whole ball game.
>> you know, at said it you said it very well earlier, we know exactly who republicans are. we know exactly who the opponents to a free and fair elections are. now the question for each and every one of us is who are we? would are we willing to do in this moment? and i did say it earlier this week, it is not enough for us to lie and eyes the huge civil rights heroes, the giants, who fought, blood, and died to get us to where we are. we've written, about learned about their sacrifices. now the question is, what are we willing to sacrifice? democracy, requires something of us. i gave a speech at gettysburg talking about the moment that we find ourselves in, talking about the bloody battle that was fought and raged on that
hollow ground to preserve the union, and now we have to, each, look in the mirror and ask what are we willing to risk to preserve the union for our kids and for grandkids. cliff, her shot, so many others were arrested with protesting to ensure the right to vote. so many people have been standing up, putting their bodies on the line to ensure that this experiment in democracy sustains for the future. and let's be very clear, this isn't -- this is an experiment. there is nothing written on the tablet somewhere that says america has to succeed. it's succeeds because every time we see a new generation of people step up to call us higher, and if we are silent in this moment, if we think that this is some sort of movie wherever works out in the end, we will be sadly mistaken if we lose this fight. i have zero faith, zero faith with in the arsonists that they are trying to burn our
democracy. we need to get rid of the filibuster to preserve our union. >> that has just been suggested. they said that we can hold on to the filibuster for other things but not voting rights. you need to know who you are. i have to say, for the average person, watching the show tonight, they think they're an american citizen. they may think they voted democrat. what do they do, what does success look like for the average person who should be outraged that one of their fellow citizens vote is being subjugated right now? what do they actually do? >> thanks for having me ali, i think folks have got to cut the cost. they have to think of what the cost of this democracy is and what's the risk. people have to get involved in all sorts of ways, there have been a lot of people doing phone calls and text messages and doing social media outreach and all of that. but we are at a point now where
the attacks against voting rights are a serious as president biden said they were a week ago, his in his passionate speech, if it is accurate that it is at risk in the way that he said it, we're gonna have to do more than just direct action that when we have been doing. that is why led by sisters with a black woman last week who took action to the senate offices and how to protest and got arrested, we did the same thing today because it is going to take that type of nonviolent direct action civil disobedience unfortunately the same type of actions that we saw in the sixties leading up to the voting rights act before the for voting rights acts were passed. we had to go through -- it's gonna take that kind of civil disobedience in order to get the voting rights we need now and and the filibuster. >> and civil rights activists like dolores whipped this is
gonna take that kind of movement. but it was easy to get into that movement back then, because you knew what's the line, was you know what broke the law, walking into a colored entrance somewhere, sitting at a counter that was not allowed for what they called colored people at the time, all that could be done. what is that civil resistance look like today? could americans of good conscious be prepared to do something that gets them arrested, to fill up the coast courts, to make politicians understand in america that they will not let these things happen to them? >> there is nothing more sacred and nothing that is more worth our sacrifice. where i grew up in a black pen accosted church and i remember so many pastor saying don't wait for your neighbor because your neighbor might be waiting for you. that is true right now as well. some folks are waiting around for somebody else to sound the alarm, for somebody else to step up, and cliff is
absolutely right, we have seen so many black women in particular on the front lines of this movement. we cannot wait around for somebody else to sound the alarm, for somebody else to put their bodies on the line. we need to be willing to do that. i'm forever grateful for those texas democrats who their government governor threatened to arrest. for them leading the state. we have people having been arrested for leaving the state. this is the only moment we have, the only moment we have,. and if people don't step up, i don't know what's coming after this. >> cliff, president biden said that voters will show up again despite how hard you work to keep them back. i'm just gonna play for you what he said and get response on the other side. >> we look, the american public, you cannot stop them from voting. we tried last time. more people voted last time than any time in american history in the middle of the
worst pandemic in american history. more people dead. and they showed up. they're going to show up again. we are going to do it again. >> biden's -- win he is relying on the idea that you can push, you can discourage, you can take out ballot boxes, you can take out 24-hour voting, you can take out mail-in voting, you can take out souls at the polls, you can not give people water in 12 hour lines to vote. but they will still. come do you believe? him >> no i don't, and we've said it before, most of us that are in the space of organizing, electoral organizing, we cannot out organize the levels of's voter suppression we're seeing right. now it's insulting an unfair that the president would inspect that in lieu of passing voting rights legislation that he's going to count on us to do another herculean effort in order to overcome what is now historic levels of voter suppression. there are a loss that weren't even in place in the last cycle
but that will now be in place. we cannot out organize, that we cannot let mitigate, we need the help -- it will not be sacrifice at the hilt of the filibuster. we cannot say that voting rights are sacred and then on the other side worship the altar of the filibuster. you cannot worship to, got he's gotta pick aside. we cannot put that burden on the backs of community groups that have helped to organize this. just one quick example, in kansas, there's a bill that says that organizing groups cannot act like their election officials, which is so vague, it could be interpreted you as you cannot even go do voter registration because those organizations could face criminal penalties. you cannot out organize that. >> i think there's a role for the president and for the executive branch and i think as i'm hearing from you, there's a rule from every single one of us. we are in the next few days going to have to think about that role is. everybody in america who
believes in democracy has got to take this on as their own personal fight with
people like you at the lead of it. thank you, pennsylvania state representative malcolm kenyatta and we cliff albright. coming up, billions of dollars of covid mitigation and schools, we is it that vitally important to ensure that kids get back to school in this fall? mick gal cardona joins me next. we cardona joins me next we sensodyne sensitivity and gum gives us a dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. millions of vulnerable americans struggle to get reliable transportation to their medical appointments. that's why i started medhaul. citi launched the impact fund to invest in both women and entrepreneurs of color like me, so i can realize my vision and give everything i've got
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reopen a next few weeks just as covid cases on the rise fueled by the highly transmissible delta variant. and just as some states are seeing a troubling increase of covid increase cases among children. and north carolina, where children are back in school, 15% of infections last week were in children 14 years in younger. the american academy of pediatrics just updated guidelines for schools that all
individuals over two years old regardless of whether they've been vaccinated where masks. that guidance is much more restrictive than but the cdc says that individuals will over two years of age should wear masks indoors only if there are not vaccinated. but schools must prioritize in-person learning, given what we know about low rates of in school transmission, when proper prevention measures are used, together with the availability of effective excellence of those 12 years and, up the benefits of in person school outweigh -- miguel cardona has been traveling the country, he is advising schools on this very issue and he is promoting the 122 dollar billion dollars in the american rescue plan that schools can use to improve their ventilation systems. joining us now is the secretary of education miguel cardona secretary cardona, is good to
see you again. i need to ask, you this is a tricky one because the -- state local responsibility. but you have guidance that you can offer and clarity that you can provide, and already we have confusion between the cdc and the american physicians about, something as basic as masks. here in new york city i saw someone circulating a campaign, and masks are kids. so the basic idea of masks and children in schools have not been resolved? >> thanks for having me on, and one thing we can agree on his our students deserve to be in the classroom every day all day. i know that we are gearing up for back to school and the question of masks have come. up we to me, we want our students in schools, so requiring masks, or having masks in our schools is a mitigation strategy to get our
students safely back into schools. as you said earlier, school officials, health officials, should be working together to make sure policies are put in place for students in schools. this isn't only about risk to using transmission, while that's the primary goal, it's also about building confidence in sending children back to school. >> so this -- would roll -- i just don't want to have a re-go of last summer where everyone was saying something different everybody else. where do you stand and where would your department do to say, we'll do something about ventilation, serious issue in many schools. but this is how school should look. are you in any position to offer that guidance or offer some baseline rules to schools? definitely. we know we want our schools to be safe environments for students and our staff. and we know what works, we have years worth of experience under our belt. we have a year's worth of science. and in my experience, reopening schools and connecticut, we know what works.
we know when you layer on the mitigation strategies, you can have children going to school daily without spread. and that's what we're expecting. we want our school students in school, we want the mitigation strategies followed, and we want to make sure that the decisions left to the educators and health as experts who know their communities best. >> so looking at nine states, arkansas, oklahoma, georgia texas, utah, vermont, among others, all have passed legislation prohibiting school districts from enacting mask mandates. on the other hand, six states, connecticut, hawaii, new mexico, new york, virginia, and washington will require masks for k to students. who decides this, or does just everybody decide this on their own? >> what i'm noticing, that's a little different from last, year this has become a little too politicized. last year we found success when we allowed our school leaders and our health expects to make decisions, communicate with parents, build confidence, and
safely reopen our schools. i think the more becomes political, the more challenging it's going to be for educational leaders who have worked extremely hard to safely reopen schools. and for our educators want to see their students in the classrooms. so let the decisions be on the shoulders of the educators and the health officials, they did it last, year and they're prepared to do with this. year >> let's talk about ventilation, you have got some money for that. in the relief act. how is that being deployed and give us some examples of the kinds of things that -- how it's identified as a problem and work gets done about it? >> we thank you ali so last year we heard from parents, from educators that ventilation was a concern. we know the american rescue plan, 122 billion dollars as you mentioned, is out there. and it can be used to address some of those safety needs and air quality. i'll tomorrow be in atlanta visiting a school that use the american rescue plan funds to
install new ventilation systems. but we also know that ventilation is part of a bigger infrastructure issue and the american rescue plan can be used to improve ventilation systems. but i've visited schools that are over 100 and 4050 years old in philadelphia and the idea of rebuilding our schools and making sure that we are taking care of our infrastructure, our school infrastructure needs, is critically important. in the agenda, 120 -- to make sure that all students across the country have access to a high quality learning environment so they can thrive. and that's what we're also talking about. short term ventilation issues an air quality issues, the american rescue plan is helping with that, but infrastructure for schools is a long term issue. >> what kind of -- i know you've identified ventilation, which is probably not the top of everybody's list. but once you get past ventilation, what are the big issues in schools that need
fixing? >> i visited schools that were so all that the windows were painted shut. i had schools with poor air flow. i saw schools that -- closets were being used as work spaces. we are retrofitting a little bit too much and we're putting students in schools that are very old. if you want to prepare our school students for the workforce tomorrow, we need labs where kids can learn hands. on we and unfortunately, in my visits, i visited 16 states over the last three months, i saw schools that were top-notch and brand-new, and then i saw schools that i would not one dose and my own children. so we have to do better, we have to make sure that we look at infrastructure as equity also for our students. >> secretary good to see you, obviously this is close to your wrist because you have been involved in education so you're getting to look at this from a different perspective. good to have you here, we hope you'll join us again. education secretary miguel cardona thank you for joining
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accounts for more than 83% of new covid cases in the united states, your cdc director rochelle walensky earlier today. >> compared to the virus we had circulating initially in the united states at the start of the pandemic, the delta variant is more aggressive and much more transmissible than previous circulating strains. it is one of the most infectious respiratory viruses we know of, and that i have seen in my 20-year career. >> joining us now is doctor kavita patel former white house policy director in the obama administration she's a physician and fellow at the bookings into, doctor patel, good to see you. this is a treat it's the second time this week, but it's never really a treat when i'm talking to two times a week because it means that something serious and bad is happening, and that is the delta variant which is spreading, obviously, among
unvaccinated populations. it's frightening and doing damage within vaccinated populations. >> yeah, ali, good to be with you. i wish you were on a better topic, at least a topic of improvements, our cases are going up. obviously, with the hospitalizations the deaths are going of. there is a spillover effect, it's not only the breakthrough infections that we're talking about, we're now seeing especially in frail elderly, we're seeing the second breakthrough infections. that is not common. but we certainly have a majority of population still vaccinated, they are susceptible, and as long as we don't have that wall of immunity, ali, we're all eventually susceptible. i think we have to start understanding that has a population. >> what is the correlation, scientific or otherwise between a large unvaccinated population and those of us who are
vaccinated getting infected? >> yes, so in terms of the correlation, essentially, it's doesn't nullify your immunization, but it creates such a ripe environment for the virus to literally do it it is supposed to do replicate, proliferate, mutate. with that is a series of mutations like we're seeing in the delta variant that can pose a threat to you, the individual who is vaccinated, and even more kind of important i think, you are just talking with the secretary, many of us are in these households, if i'm immunized but several of my children are not, then there is a serious high concentration of potential viral activity and potential threat to you the parent who is immunized. we're seeing children spreading this much more efficiently, they don't get as sick, they don't go to the hospital as often, and i'm just gonna offer to you, ali, sending your children to the hospital is a pretty low bar. we should set a higher bar in
protecting our kids, and that all goes back to what we talked about, getting more people vaccinated as adults. >> i've been interviewing people who are remarkably patient, they got in communities they talk one and one, half an hour, 20 minutes, whatever the convince people to get the vaccine which i think is great, these people who are not getting vaccinated are threatening the rest of us, they are threatening people who are immunosuppressed, we're seeing high levels of infections and death among certain immunocompromised communities in this country. this behavior is actually killing other people, it's not just a matter of you make your own choices. is this anything that can happen, with full approval of these drugs that can allow places, like the place i work, i would like nbc to mandated that you don't come to work if you're not vaccinated, that's not the official policy of my company but i would like it to be the official policy of my company, while making the drugs fully approved change the ability to do that? >> i think it will change it
especially for employers. you are in good company, i'm also in the same boat. i'm employed by a place that does not mandate the vaccine even though up would love to see, and i'm a health care worker, i would love to see that full approval will help them -- i hope it will help the federal government, we should have federal workers who are also critical workers themselves mandated, required. but i also do think, ali, that at the end of the day, it is not going to necessarily move the needle. here is some good news, if i can give you some good news, we've seen an increase in vaccination, we saw 600,000 vaccination in the last 24 hours. it's almost double from a week ago. so i am hopeful that as we're starting to see conservative media, figures who are influential, that that can turn a little bit of the tide. but to your point, it is going to take some plunge policies, look at what macron is doing in france. it is going to take some hard truths for our country to accept this. >> this is an ivory tower conversation we're happy at being in a country that has all
the vaccines we need when they're triple digits of countries that have no vaccines. >> i have a wonderful medical assistant are her families in el salvador we are throwing doses because they've expired, and she begged me, she begged me could i give them to her. ali, honestly i thought about it, and that is the state we are in. we are living -- the five richest countries have taken almost half the vaccines, and the world is burning around us, and why should we care, the only reason we are talking about the continued threat of variants are not just for the unvaccinated population, but the world unvaccinated population. it's estimated that 50 billion dollars of local investments could help released scaled the manufacturing force needed to give everybody one shot in the country. i hope that is a conversation that we take more seriously. >> i hope so too, kavita, thank you. kavita patel is a physician she's a fellow at the brookings institute. coming up, to hear kevin mccarthy tell that what we
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leader kevin mccarthy called the january 6th select committee's investigation a quote, a sham. kevin mccarthy helped sabotage the bipartisan 9/11 style commission that would investigate the wrecks direction he picked an serious people to be part of the select committee, but sure, it is a sham because of nancy pelosi. it's obvious why kevin mccarthy is pulling this political stunt, he's actually afraid of what the committee is going to find after all the for the first hearing was held we -- was an act of love. >> i was a loving crowd to by the way. there was a lot of love. >> a lot of love. pretty clear that mccarthy wants to avoid more horrific comments like that from coming out.
hear speaker pelosi earlier today. co>> it was not all of, hugs and kisses. this is deadly serious. this is about a constitution. it's about our country. it's an assault on the capitol that is being mischaracterized for some reason at the expense, at the expense of finding out the truth for the american people. were there to seek the truth. where there to get the truth, not to get trump. >> speaker pelosi said this in defense of her decision to reject to kevin mccarthy's on syria's picks to the select committee. >> these people are gonna act up, cause a problem and people said to me, put him on and then when they act up you can take him off. i said, why should we waste time on something as predictable? it is my responsibility as the speaker of the house to make sure we get to the truth on
this and we will not let their antics stand in the way of that. >> joining us now is early maxwell the host of the program sir lionel which airs on peacock, but before that a good friend of mine who used to be with me on this show an awful lot, and another good friend of four as jonathan alter a columnist for the daily beast and an msnbc political analyst. he's the author of his very best jimmy carter, alive. thanks to both of you for being here. zerlina, i just talked to could be the patel who said the good news is there are pockets of americans who are getting vaccinated. they've been stuck and they're moving because remarkable conservatives in this country are getting their vaccines. steve scalise, on saturday, decided to get his vaccine after being skeptical about the whole operation. hannity talked about getting the virus -- he stopped short and said, i'm not urging people to get the covid vaccine because i'm not a doctor, that is not what i said, i said to take it seriously.
it can kill you. because god forbid you've overstepped and told people to get a vaccine that might save their lives. >> ali, at the end of my radio show, every single day, i say please go out and get your vaccine. the reason why i say that it's because, it is the way that we as americans can do our civic duty in this moment. the public health moment requires all of us to do our part and in so many ways, we always talk about american exceptionalism and we love to think that we are part of this american team, but essentially, a lot of us are coming up short in terms of our responsibility to our neighbors. i think certainly when you see people increasing their level of vaccinations and going out to get those vaccinations, now that the delta variant is the dominant variant in the country in all 50 states, i think that shows that people are starting to take this more seriously.
but it is a little bit too late, there are so many peoples lives who have been shattered, not just the ones that were lost but also the family members and the extended family members of all those families and communities. and so, i do not think the republicans can change their tune now and get too much credit. but it is good that they finally decided to listen to the scientists, like the rest of us. >> some of them did. so in florida, there is still this get fauci out of florida's campaign that is going on even though ron desantis has often off his view about that. he was having an interview about that with the former trump lawyer jen alice, you'll remember her she was one of that group of three coups holding those press conference after these elections. here's what they were talking about with respect to. fauci in >> we want to prosecute this guy to the full ability of the law. to lie to the american people
just to get your name in the news, just to see your face on the cover of books, just to have fame and fortune. doctor anthony fauci does not deserve fame or fortune. >> i don't know to do with that, jonathan alter. we've been interviewing fauci, i've been interviewing him for about a decade, this is not a fame and fortune seeking guy. i don't even know but madison cawthorn is talking about, but the talking points have taken control of the message. >> well, i put it a little bit more strongly than zerlina, he has blood dripping from his hands. all of those that have gone to tv and chosen their ratings over the lives of the american people, those politicians who have chosen appealing to the base over the lives of the american people. the republican party is a blood soaked party full stop. this might sound rather dramatic, but we've already lost more than 600,000
americans. just in the time that they have been suggesting to people that we don't need to be vaccinated, an awful lot more americans have died. the only people who are dying of this disease, at this point, are those who are unvaccinated. some are getting infected, even though they have been vaccinated, but it is no longer a fatal disease if you have been vaccinated. the fact that they are not accepting this and explaining to their people is the height of irresponsibility. it is one of the most irresponsible moments in all of american history. when we have a good cure and people for political reasons won't tell them to save their own lives. >> not particularly sure, zerlina, what the political gain, is i wouldn't thought that is a good side, let's go with the anti-masker, anti-vaxxers.
>> not only that, ali, i've never thought that people would put politics over their own personal safety. like i didn't think people would march off a cliff with the republican party, and the republican party would march off the cliff with donald trump. but that is the place that we are in. and i think that is the part that is the scariest. we are post insurrection, we are post-2020 and so we know with this movement is capable of. i think that we all have to take, as nancy pelosi said, all of this deadly seriously, because you have the pandemic raging and then you also have the threat of potentially more violence because they still won't tell the truth about the election. they lie about the science, they lie about the election. i would just like to get to a place where we can all agree that joe biden won the election and that covid is real, and that these vaccines work, and then we can move on from there. >> all barbara gonna move on from this conversation, stay
there because i'm gonna keep you around for another conversation right after this, sir lena and jonathan, up next some conservative say they are worried about a micro ship in a vaccine, wait till you find out what can be done using the data from your smartphone. next. next neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. there's an america we build and one we explore. one that's been paved and one that's forever wild. but freedom means you don't have to choose just one adventure. you get both. introducing the wildly civilized all-new 3-row jeep grand cherokee l
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cheer on team usa with xfinity internet. and ask how to save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill when you add xfinity mobile. >> companies are tracking you get started today. and millions of people around the world using smartphone data, a vacation photos you post, your location history even the movies you stream online. businesses use all of that information to better market products and deals and politicians frankly to you, or it can be used to target you. a catholic sub stack up teen data signals from the location base grinder app, this subsection use this information to track a phone belonging to our use by jeffrey borough, an executive officer of the united states conference of catholic bishops just before pillar published its story, burrow resigned. so how did the subs fact get
this information? its own report described the process sounding like a black mayor episode and a warning quote, commercially available apps signal data does not identify the names of app users, but instead correlates a unique numerical identify to each mobile device using particular apps. signal data connected by apps after users consent to data collection, it's aggregated and sold by data vendors. it can be analyzed to provide time stamp location data and usage information for each number device. after users consented data collection, how many times have you done that to make those pop-ups go away. in a statement to the washington post on tuesday a grinder spokeswoman said quote the alleged activities like stephen that unattributed block those are in feasible from a technical standpoint and incredibly unlikely to occur, there's absolutely no evidence supporting the allegation of improper data collection or usage related to the grinder app as purported. now but we do know that the
apps on our phones collect information about their users, about us. according to the harvard business review collecting and selling data is estimated to be a 200 billion dollar business but there are no federal laws in the united states restricting the collection or use of location data. joining us now democratic congressman ro khanna of california he's a member of the house oversight committee and gerrit de vynck the technology reporter for the washington post. welcome to both of us. gareth let me start with you, what is the problem to be solved here in this story that i have told. we all understand that we don't have laws to control these things and we all have options to opt out of certain data collection, and it seems like none of us use that option. >> well i mean, we have the option but the option is really stop using your smartphone and that is not an option for most americans. you know, this is just the world that we live in at this point, and to put it back on the consumer to say that it is all fault that we are being tracked, that our data is being collected by dozens of companies. this is just google and
facebook, this is any app on your phone can be selling some of that data and anonymous it, but that doesn't mean that that anonymous data can then be combined with other disease data sense, sliced and diced by other companies and then sold on and used as it was in this case to identify specific people doing specific things. >> congressman ro khanna, how do you manage this? how do you propose that the government does get involved in regulation of this in a sophisticated way without crushing industries that are probably pretty good and useful to people but this isn't what it is designed for, people are not supposed to be using grinder so that they can be outed? >> ali, first of all this shows that this isn't some technical issue, what happened to this priest is scary and offensive. it is surveillance capitalism, basically you can use data to expose people, to manipulate them, to threaten them. this is why we need an internet bill of rights that has clear,
informed consent which informed people that you have to opt in, not requiring you to opt out. it's why we need to have data minimization, you should be allowed to collect data that is not necessary, and the consent should inches before collecting data, it should apply to anyone who uses the data. we know what we need to do is just that congress, frankly, hasn't acted. >> i just want to show some polls to you both. the morning consult did a poll that said should congress prioritize privacy legislation among americans, 83% yes, 80% know, 9% no opinion. they did another poll about that in which it's 86% yes, 6% know, and 8% no opinion among democrats. then they asked republicans, it's not that far off, 81% of republicans say yes, 12% say no, 7% have no opinion. this is bipartisan.
but gerrit, do we know what good legislation looks like, california has some legislation, you're passing legislation, europe's than more thinking about this and we have. do we know how you get good legislation that allows you to use your phone the way you want to use it but doesn't let people manipulate your data? >> yes, there are tons of proposals out there. europe has had privacy regulation for a couple of years now. people would say that it maybe hasn't been quite as effective as people wanted it to be. i think really the problem is that we have created a situation where commercially, were used to using a lot of things for free and the way that that is funded has been through advertising, you might download a weather app and say this is just to see what the weather in my area is, of course i'm gonna share my location, so i can see with the weather in my area is, but in those terms and service that you agree to, they're taking that location data and selling into a data broker who is selling it on to someone else. and that is how the weather app is making money, and that's how
it is provided to you for free. the whole system would had to change. >> congressman ro khanna it does seems like there is bipartisan support for this is there some meaningful legislation that can tackle this? the hearings we've had on social media and the internet have not been all that fulfilling recently? >> well there is, but this was originally after the scandal [inaudible] three and a half years ago every six months they tell me the committees are gonna come with those legislations, they haven't done it and it's because there are some a lot of special interest that are involved, and he's right that europe's legislation wasn't effective, i represent silicon valley and let me tell you with these companies stayed, they created dark patterns to get people to consent. basically, they had screens that were brighter, boxes, we need to be fought the technological competency of our regulatory agencies. right now the companies are running circles around
congress. >> thanks to both of you for this important conversation congressman ro khanna and gerrit de vynck, you've got tonight's last word the 11th hour with brian adams begins right now. ght now. good evening once again, day 184 of the biden administration which is now, as you know, racing to control this latest rapidly worsening surge of virus in our country. this bike fueled by the delta variant and ripping through communities with a large numbers of unvaccinated americans. and so, once again today, the cdc was forced to sound the alarm. calling this a pivotal moment in the fight against this pandemic. >> take the delta variant seriously. this virus has no incentive to let up and it remains in search of the next vulnerable person to infect. compared to the virus circulating initially in the un