tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC July 22, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
that's going to do it for us tonight, but i'm here to tell you you are already out of time to go to bed tonight. i knew the opening ceremony for the olympics was tomorrow. i had not done the math, though. and i did not know that because of the time difference, you know what time the opening ceremony starts for the olympics? you want to know what time the live coverage starts? 7:00 in the morning, 7:00 eastern. on nbc, the coverage starts at 6:55 eastern. so you officially have no time to go to bed tonight. just settle in. you'll be up all night. the next thing you're going to watch is called "the last word" and our friend ali velshi is in for lawrence tonight. >> we're going to do it like in college, we're going to watch "the last word" and then "the 11th hour" and then rachel again at midnight, then "the last word." you know, we're going to stay up. people are going to be wired for watching the opening ceremony
and it's going to be fun. it'll be a bit of honest competition in our world, rachel. we talk in politics a lot about competition and how so much of it is rigged. we're going to watch honest competition for the next couple weeks and i'm excited about that. >> there's a reason why we all love sports and it's because we love merit cratic competition. there's a reason we love it and there's no shame in that. >> have a good night, rachel. tonight we're sounding the alarm. now is the time to protect the right to vote, everyone's right to vote, not next week or once the nonsense in texas is over or the fraudit in arizona is going to be done. but, in fact, now. each moment wasted is another moment for republicans to stop more of us from exercising that right, and that's how it's going to go. in a brand-new report, the brennan center for justice finds that just since the start of this year, 2021, 18 states have passed 30 laws to restrict
voting access, 18. we're only halfway through the year. you can bet more are coming. last night president biden reiterated that he wouldn't advocate for getting rid of or weakening the filibuster. he said i want to make sure we bring along not just all the democrats, we bring along republicans, who i know know better. they know better than this, end quote. i'm sorry to tell you, mr. president, but republicans apparently do not know better. just listen to yourself earlier this month. >> to me, this is simple. this is election subversion. it's the most dangerous threat to voting in the integrity of free and fair elections in our history. >> at the hit all the right points, except how to fix it because republicans don't know better. maybe they know better, they just don't care.
the associated press reviewed the more than 3 million ballots cast in arizona in the 2020 presidential election and found 182 possible voter fraud cases under review. it looks like voter fraud, so they put it aside. of the 182, only four have been charged. four. two registered democrats, two registered republicans. no one's been convicted no, votes in arizona were counted twice. but republicans in the state are still after three months carrying out a fake fraudit in maricopa county. it has not ended. they don't know better. you can knock down their election conspiracies over and over and over again, even in a court of law, as has been done, and they'll still tell you that there is fraud. it is embarrassing. it is shameful. republicans used to be afraid of shame but do the entire gop stays quiet part out loud, shame be damned. it's why similar idiotic fake
audits are being attempted in other states like pennsylvania, michigan, and wisconsin. they want to subvert the will of the people to stay in power. i'd like to wait for republicans to wake up and do the right thing, but that isn't going to happen. they don't know better, mr. president. what they do know is that their efforts to keep voting safe are working. they're not keeping voting safe, they're just working to keep people away from ballots. more people in more states are going to find it harder to vote because of voter security efforts by the gop. and those people are by and large people of color, the poor, students, busy working moms. so folks, democrats have got to meet the moment with what the moment demands. no more half measures, no more watered-down bills amenable to republicans. democrats must blow up the filibuster. or if you're a traditionalist and you like the filibuster, just carve out an exception for the most important thing, voting reform. i'm not some blind idealist. i don't this president this message will change the minds of
joe manchin or kyrsten sinema or joe biden, but it should, and the alarm needs to be sounded by you as much as by me over and over again. if senate democrats eliminate the filibuster rule and pass the for the people act, the right of all eligible americans to vote will be protected. if they don't, more americans will find that right has been diminished. that may not seem obvious to you. what does diminished mean? you either have the right to vote or not. i'll show you what it means. of it discourages people from voting. it intimidates them and makes it harder for them to vote. you might have never had a hard time voting. you've never been stopped at the polls. but just because it doesn't happen to you or me doesn't mean it should be happening to anyone in this country. it's in the constitution. you should be outraged for the people whose rights are being
diminished. and because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it can't happen to you in the future. the right to vote, as we're learning, is not a given. and if one person's right to vote is curtailed or threatened, the overall will of the people is threatened. so get up and sound the alarm like i am. this country has always, always tried to move toward a more perfect union. people have died for that. the least we can do now is not stay quiet and let republicans destroy that. leading off is malcolm kenyatta, running for u.s. senate in pennsylvania and cliff all bright, director of black voters matter fund, host of the podcast "black power revisited." thank you for being here this morning. representative, you and i talked on monday. you sort of had a moment in which you said let's stop talking about the bs about this, let's symptom tweeting about
john lewis and all the great things about him. let's get this done because there will not be another chance. if these states get away with what they're doing, that is whole ball game. >> you know, ali, you said it very well in your lead-up. we know exactly who republicans are. we know exactly who the opponents to a free and fair re-elections are. now the question for each and every one of us is who are we? what are we willing to do in this moment? and i did say it earlier this week. it is not enough for us to lionize the civil rights heroes, the giants who fought, bled, and died to get us to where we are. you know, we've written about, learned about their sacrifice. now the question is, what are we willing to sacrifice? democracy requires something of us. i gave a speech at gettysburg
talking about the moment that we find ourselves in, talking about the bloody battle that was fought and waged on that hollow ground to preserve the union, and now we have to each look in the mirror and ask, what are we willing to risk to preserve the union for our kids and for our grandkids? cliff, rashad, so many others were arrested protest to go ensure the right to vote. so many people have been standing up, putting their bodies on the line to ensure that this experiment in democracy sustains for the future. and let's be very clear. this is an experiment. there is nothing written on a tablet somewhere that says america has to succeed. it succeeds because every time we see a new generation of people step up to call us higher, if we are silent in this moment, if we think that this is some movie when it all works out in the end, we will be sadly
mistaken if we lose this fight. i have zero faith, zero faith in the arsonists trying to burn down our democracy. >> when malcolm says you need to know who you are, you know who they are, the people who are trying to stop people from voting. you need to know who you are. i have to say, for the average person watching this show tonight, they think they're an american citizen. they may think they voted democrat. what do they do? what does success look like for the average person who should be outraged that one of their fellow citizens' vote is being subjugated right now? >> thanks for having me, ali. the last saying you have to count the costs. what are the costs of this democracy and what's at risk? people have to get involved in all sorts of ways, you know.
there have been a lot of people doing phone calls and text messages and doing social media outreach and all of that. but we are at a point with the attacks against voting rights are as serious as what president biden said they were a week ago in his speech, very passionate speech. if it's accurate that it's at risk the way that he says, that this is the biggest risk since the civil war, we're going to need to do more direct types of action. that's why, led by sisters, black women last week who took the action to the senate offices and had a protest and got arrested, we did the same thing today because it's going to take that type of nonviolent direct action, civil disobedience. unfortunately, the same type of actions we saw in the '60s leading up to the voting rights act before the voting rights act was passed, we had to go through a voting rights movement in the black belt of alabama and mississippi. it's going to take that kind of
civil disobedience to get the voting rights we need now and to end the filibuster. >> the civil rights activists like dolores huerta said that. it's easy to get into that movement because you knew where the line was. you knew what broke the law walking into a colored place somewhere or sitting at a counter that was not allowed for what they called colored people at the time. all that could be done. what does that civil resistance look like today? should americans of good conscience be prepared to do something that gets them arrested, to fill up the courts to make politicians understand that americans will not let these things happen to them? >> there's nothing more sacred and nothing that is more worth our sacrifice. i grew up in a black pentecostal church saying don't wait for your neighbor because your neighbor might be waiting for you. that is true right now as well.
some folks are waiting around for somebody else to sound the alarm. cliff is absolutely right. we've seen so many black women in particular on the front lines of this movement. we can't wait around for somebody else to sound the alarm, for somebody else to put their bodies on the line. we have to be willing to do that. you know, i'm forever grateful for those texas democrats who their governor threatened arrest for them leaving the state. we have people who've been arrested for them leaving the state. this is the only moment we have, the only moment we have. and if folks don't step up, i don't know what's coming after this. >> cliff, president biden had said that voters will show up again despite how hard you work to keep them back. i want your response on the other side. >> look, the american public,
you can't stop them from voting. they tried last time. more people voted last time than any time in american history in the middle of the worst pandemic in american history. more people did. [ applause ] and they showed up. they're going to show up again. they're going to do it again. >> so biden's -- he's relying on the idea that you can push, you can discourage, you can take out ballot boxes, you can take out 24-hour voting, you can take out mail-in voting, you cannot give people water in their 12-hour lines when they vote, but they will overcome. do you believe him? >> no, i don't. we've said it before. not just me, but most of us that are in this space of organizing. it is insulting and unfair that the president would expect that in lieu of passing actual voting rights legislation that he's going to count on us to do
another herculean effort. we can't out-organize that and out-litigate that. we need voting rights legislation and it cannot sacrificed at the altar of the filibuster. we can't on the one hand say voting rights are sacred and on the other hand worship at the altar of the filibuster. you can't worship two gods. he's got to pick a side. we cannot put that burden on the backs of community groups. in kansas there's a bill that says basically organizing groups cannot act like they're elections officials, which is so vague, it can be interpreted as you can't do voter registration because those organizations could literally face criminal penalties. you can't out-organize that. >> i think there's a role for the president and for the executive branch, and i think as i'm hearing from you, there's a
role for every single one of us. we are in the next few days going to have to think about what that role is. everybody in america who believes
in democracy has got to take this on as their own personal fight with people like you at the lead of it. thank you. pennsylvania state representative malcolm kenyatta and cliff albright. coming up, the american rescue plan authorized billions of dollars for mitigation efforts in schools. with the delta variant on the rise, it's that vitally important to make sure kids can get back into the classroom this fall. the united states education secretary, miguel cardona, joins me next.
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schools are gearing up to reopen in the next few weeks as covid cases are on the rise because of the delta variant. some states are seeing an increase in the number of cases among children. in north carolina where some students were already become in school, 15% of infections over the last week were in children
14 years and younger. the american academy of pediatrics just released updated guidance for schools recommending that all individuals over 2 years old, regardless of whether they have been vaccinated, wear masks. that guidance is stricter than cdc that recommends individuals over 2 must wear masks indoors only if they haven't been vaccinated. but the american academy of pediatricians and the cdc agrees schools must prioritize in-person learning. the academy says, quote, given what we know about low rates of in-school transformation when proper prevention measures are used together with the availability of effective vaccines for those age 1 years and up, the benefits of in-person school outweigh the risks in all circumstances. our next guest is the education secretary of the united states, miguel cardona. he's been traveling the country. he's advising schools on this very issue and he's promoting the more than $122 billion in
the american rescue plan that schools can use to improve ventilation systems. join us is the secretary of education, miguel cardona. secretary cardona, good to see you again. i have to ask you -- that is tricky one because the federal education department has an ancillary role in the decisions made in schools, which tend to be state and local responsibilities. but you have guidance that you can offer and clarity that you can provide, and already we've got confusion between the cdc and the american physicians about something as basic as masks. here in new york city i was someone circulate ing a campaign, unmask our kids. the matter of masks and children going back to school is not yet resolved. >> thanks for having me on. one thing we can agree on is that our students deserve to be in the classroom every day, all day in the fall. and i know that we're gearing up for back to school, and the question of masks has come up. so to me, we want our students
in school, so requiring masks or having masks in our schools is just another mitigation strategy to get our students safely back into schools. as you said earlier, you know, school officials and health officials should be working together to make sure policies are put in place that get students in school. this isn't only about reducing transformation, while that's the primary goal. it's also about building confidence and sending children back to school. >> so what role -- i just don't want to have a re-go of last summer where everybody was saying something different to everybody else. where do you stand and what will your department do to sort of say, hey, we'll deal with some of the ventilation, big issue, serious issue in a lot of schools, water and ventilation. this is how schools should look. are you in any position to offer that guidance or provide some baseline rules about schools? >> we want our schools to be safe environments for students and staff. and we know what works. we have a year's worth of
experience under our belts, years' worth of science. in my experience, reopening schools in connecticut, we know what works. we know when you later on in the mitigation strategies, you can have children going to school daily without spread. we want our students in school and we want the mitigation strategies followed and we want to make sure the decisions are being left to the educators and the health experts. >> we're looking at neighbor -- nine states all having passed legislation prohibiting school districts from enacting mask mandates. on the other hand, at least six states, connecticut, hawaii, new mexico, new york, virginia and washington will require masks for k-12 students. who decides or does everybody decide this on their own? >> you know, what i'm noticing -- that's a little bit different from last year.
this has become too politicized. last year we found success when we allowed our school leaders and our health experts to make decisions, communicate with parents, build confidence and safely reopen our schools. i think the more it becomes political, the more challenging it's going to be for educational leaders and for educators who want to see students in the classrooms. so let the decisions be on the shoulders of the educators and the health officials that did it last year ask they're prepared to do it again this year. >> let's talk about ventilation. you got some money for that in the relief act. how is that being deployed and give us some examples of the kinds of things -- how it's identified as a problem and what gets done about it. >> thank you, ali. so last year we heard from parents, from educators that ventilation is a concern. $122 billion is out there and it could be used to address some of those safety needs around air
quality. tomorrow i'll be in atlanta visiting a school that used the american rescue plan funds to improve ventilation systems and air quality and build confidence in the community. but we also know that, you know, ventilation is a part of a bigger infrastructure issue, and the american rescue plan can be used to improve ventilation systems. but i visited schools as old as 130, 140 years old like in philadelphia, and the idea of rebuilding our schools and making sure that we're taking care of our infrastructure, our school infrastructure need is critically important. in the build back better agenda, $100 billion towards school infrastructure is critical to make sure that all students across the country have access to a high-quality learning environment so they can thrive. short-term ventilation issues and air quality issues, the american rescue plan is helping with that. but infrastructure for our schools is a long-term issue. >> what other infrastructure can that go toward.
ventilation may not have been at the top of this list aside from the pandemic. but what are the big issues that schools need in terms of fixing? >> you know, i visited schools that were so old that the windows were painted shut. i saw schools with poor air flow. i saw schools where closets were being used as work spaces. you know, we're retro fitting a bit too much and putting students in schools that are very old. if we want to prepare our students for the workforce of tomorrow, we need labs where students can learn hands on, state-of-the-art facilities where they can get the highest levels of learning to be successful in life. unfortunately in my visits -- i visited 16 states over the last three months, i saw schools that were topnotch and brand-new, and then i saw schools that i wouldn't want to send my own children in. so we have to do better and we have to make sure we look at infrastructure as equity also for our students. >> secretary, good to see you. obviously this is close to your roots because you have been involved in education, so you're
getting to look at this from a different perspective. good to have you here. we hope you'll join us again, education secretary miguel cardona, thank you for joining us. coming up, dr. kavita patel joins us to talk about the new variants and how worried you should be. called tardive dyskinesia... ... i ignored them. but when the movements in my hands and feet started throwing me off at work... i finally had to say, 'it's not ok.' it was time to talk to my doctor about austedo. she said that austedo helps reduce td movements in adults... ...while i continue with most of my mental health medications. (vo) austedo can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have suicidal thoughts. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. don't take austedo if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, restlessness, movements mimicking parkinson's disease,
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when i'm talking to you two times in a week because it means something serious and bad is happening, and that is delta variant, which is spreading obviously among unvaccinated populations. but it's spreading and doing damage within vaccinated populations. >> yeah, ali. good to be with you. i wish it were on a better topic or at least a topic of improvement. cases are going up and obviously with that, hospitalizations and deaths are going up. as you mentioned, there's a spillover effect. it's not just the kind of breakthrough infections that we're talking about. we're actually now seeing especially in frail elderly, we're seeing these second breakthrough infections, fully immunized people leading to hospitalizations and unfortunately deaths. that's not common, but we certainly have, like, a majority of the population that is still unvaccinated, that they're susceptible. as long as we don't have that wall of immunity, we're all eventually susceptible and we
have to start understanding that as a population. >> what is the correlation between a large unvaccinated population and those of us who are vaccinated getting infected? >> yeah. so in terms of kind of the correlation, essentially -- it doesn't nullify your immunization but it creates such a ripe environment for the virus to literally do what it's supposed to do, replicate and mutate. with that is a series of mutations that can pose a threat to you, the individual, who is vaccinated. even more important, i think, you were just talking with the secretary. many of us are in these mixed households. if i'm muniized and my children are not, then atlas serious high concentration of potential viral activity and potential threat to you, the parent who is
immunized. we see children spreading this efficiently. they don't get sick or go to the hospital as often, but sending our children to the hospital is a pretty low bar. we should probably set a higher bar in protecting our kids, and the all goes back to getting more people vaccinated as adults who can. >> i've been interviewing people who are remarkably patient. they go out into communities and talk one-on-one, half an hour, 20 minutes, whatever they convince people to get the vaccine, which i think is great. these people who are not getting vaccinated are threatening the rest of us, those who are immune suppressed. we see high levels of death in immew know compromised. this blazer is killing other people. it's just not a matter of you make your own choices. is there anything that can happen maybe with full approval of these drugs that can allow places like the place i work -- i would like nbc to mandate that you don't come to work if you're not vaccinated. that's not the official policy
of my company, but i'd very much like it to be the official policy of my company. will making the drugs fully approved change the ability to do that? >> i think it will change it, especially for employers. you're in good company. i'm also in the same boat. i'm employed by a place that does not mandate the vaccine, even though i would love to see -- and i'm a health care worker. i would love to see that. it will help the federal government. we should have federal workers who are also critical workers themselves mandated, required. but i also think, ali, at the end of the day it's not going to necessarily move the needle. here's good news. we've seen an increase in vaccinations. we saw 600,000 vaccinations in the last 24 hours. it's almost double from a week ago. so i am hopeful that as we're starting to see conservative media, figures who are influential that can turn a little bit of the tide. but to your point, it's going to take some blunt policies. look at what macron is doing in
france. it's going to take some hard truth for our country to accept this. >> because this is an ivory tower we're having in a country that has all the vaccine we need when there are triple digits of countries that have no vaccine. >> yeah. the saddest thing. i have a wonderful medical assistant whose family is in el salvador. with her throwing away doses that expired. she begged me to give them to her. i thought about it. that's the state we're in. we're living in the five richest countries that have taken up almost half the vaccines, and the world is burning around us and why should we care? the only reason we're talking about the continued threat of variants, they're not just our unvaccinated population, the world's unvaccinated population. some have estimated that just $50 billion of global investment could help to really scale the manufacturing force needed to give everyone one shot in the country.
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today house republican leader kevin mccarthy called the january 6th select committee's investigation, quote, a sham. kevin mccarthy helped sabotage the 9/11 commission that would have investigated the insurrection. he picked unserious pushers of election conspiracies to be part of the committee but sure, it's a sham because of nancy pelosi. it's obvious why kevin mccarthy is pulling this political stunt. he's actually afraid of what the committee is going to find. after all, before the first hearing was held, we learned that trump thought the insurrection was an act of love. >> it was a loving crowd too, by
the way. there was a lot of love. >> a lot of love? pretty clear that mccarthy wants to avoid more horrific comments like that from coming out. here's speaker pelosi earlier today. >> it was not all love, hugs, and kisses. this is deadly serious. this is about our constitution. it's about our country. it's an assault on the capitol that is being mischaracterized for some reason at the expense of finding truth for the american people who are there to seek the truth. we're there to get the truth, t-r-u -- truth. >> speaker pelosi said this in defense of her decision to reject two of kevin mccarthy's unserious picks to the select committee. >> these people are going to act up, cause a problem, and people said to me, put them on and then when they act up, you can kick
them off. i said, why should we waste time on something as predictable? it is my responsibility as speaker of the house to make sure we get to the truth on this, and we will not let their antics stand in the way of that. >> joining us now is zerlina maxwell, host of airs on peacock. before that, a good friend of mine who used to be with me on this show an awful lot and another good friend of ours, jonathan arthur, msnbc political analyst. here's the author of his very best "jimmy carter: a life." i talked to kavita patel who said the good news is there are pockets of americans who are getting vaccinated. they had been stuck and they're moving because remarkable conservatives in this country are getting their vaccines. steve scalise on saturday decided to get his vaccine after being skeptical about the whole
operation. hannity talked taking this virus seriously. he also did say, though, he stopped short. he said i'm not urging people to get the covid-19 vaccine because i'm not a doctor. that's not what i said. i said to take it seriously because it can kill you because god if he should you overstep and tell people to get a vaccine that could save their lives. >> at the end of my show, i say please go get your vaccine. it's the way that we as americans can do our civic duty in this moment. the public health moment requires all of us to do our part and, in so many ways -- we always talk about american exceptionalism and we love to think we're part of this american team, but essentially a lot of us are coming up short in terms of our responsibility to our neighbors. and i think certainly when you see people increasing their level of vaccinations and going
out to get those vaccinations, now that the delta variant is the dominant variant in the country in all 50 states, i think that shows that people are starting to take this more seriously. but it's a little bit too late. there are so many people's lives who've been shattered, not just the ones that were lost but the family members of all those families and communities. and so i do not think that republicans can change their tune now and get too much credit. but it's good that they finally decided to listen to the scientists, like the rest of us. >> some of them did. in florida there's still this get fauci out of florida campaign that's going on, even though ron desantis seems to have softened his view on the operation. madison caw thorn, representative, was having an interview with the former trump lawyer, jenna ellis, one of that group of three who was holding those press conferences after the election. here's what they were talking about with respect to fauci.
>> we wanted to prosecute this guy to the full ability of the law because i'll tell you, to lie to the american people just to get your name in the news, just to see your face on the cover of books, just to get fame and fortune, dr. anthony fauci does not deserve either fame or fortune. >> i don't know what to do with that, jonathan alter. we've been interviewing fauci for over a decade. this is not a fame and fortune seeking guy. i don't even know what madison caw thorn is talking about. but it is this -- the talking points have taken control of the message. >> well, i put it a little more strongly than zerlina. madison caw thorn has dripping from his hands, so do all those who have gone on tv and chosen their ratings over the lives of the american people. those politicians who have chosen appealing to the base over the lives of the american
people. the republican party is a blood-soaked party, full stop. this might sound rather dramatic, but we've already lost more than 600,000 americans. and just in the time that they have been suggesting to people that they don't need to be vaccinated, an awful lot more americans have died. the only people who are dying of this disease at this point are those who are unvaccinateed. some are getting infected, but it's no longer a fatal disease if you have been vaccinated. and the fact that they are not accepting this and explaining to their people is the height of irresponsibility. it's one of the most irresponsible moments in all of american history when we have a good cure and people for political reasons won't tell them to save their own lives.
>> not particularly sure, zerlina, what the political gain is. i wouldn't have said let's go with the anti-maskers. >> not only that, ali, i never thought that people would put, you know, politics over their own personal safety. like, i didn't think people would march off of the cliff with the republican party and the republican party would march off of the cliff with donald trump. but that's the place that we're in. and i think that's the part that is the scariest. we're post-insurrection. we are post-2020. and so we know what this movement is capable of. and so i think that we all have to take, as nancy pelosi said, all of this deadly seriously because you have the pandemic raging and then you also have the threat of potentially more violence because they still won't tell the truth about the election, so they lie about the science, they lie about the election, and i really would just like to get back to a place
where we can all agree that joe biden won the election and that covid is real and that these vaccinations work. and then we can move on from there. >> we're going to move on from this conversation. stay there because we're going to keep you around for another conversation right after this. zerlina and jonathan. up next, conservatives say they're worried about a microchip in a vaccine. wait till you find out what can be seen in your phone, next. be seen in your phone, next.
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i get that too and mine has 5g included. impressive. impressive is saving four hundred bucks a year. four bucks? that's tough to beat. relax people, my wireless is crushing it. okay, that's because you all have xfinity mobile. it's wireless so good, it keeps one upping itself. companies are tracking you and millions of others around the globe all the time using smart phone data. the vacation photos you post, the questions you enter into search engines, your vacation histories. businesses use all that information to better market products and deals and politicians frankly to you. or it can be used to target you. a catholic substack obtained data signals from the location based grindr app and used it to
track a phone belonging to jeffrey burl, an executive officer by the united states conference of catholic bishops. just before pillar published its story he resign. so how did the substack get the information? its own report describes the process sounding like a black mirror episode. and a warning, quote, commercially available app signal data does not identify the name of app users but instead correlates a unique mobile identifier to each mobile device using particular apps. signal data connected by apps after users consent to data collection is aggregated and sold by data vendors. it can be analyzed to provide time stamped location data and usage information for each guice. after users consent to data collection, how many times have you done that to make those pop ups go away? a spokeswoman said, quote, the alleged activities listed in that untributed blog post are infeasible from a technical standpoint and incredibly unlikely to occur.
there's absolutely no evidence supporting the allegation of improper data collection or usage relate today the grindr app as purported. according to the harvard business review collecting and selling data is mated to be a $200 billion business. but there are no federal laws in the united states restricting the collection or the use of location data. joining us now are democratic congressman ro khanna of california, and garret, technology reporter for "the washington post." garret, let me start with you. what's the problem to be solved here in the story that i've told? we all understand we don't have laws to control these things, and we all have options to opt out of certain data collection, and seems like none of us use that option. >> we have the option, but the option is really stop using your smart phone, and that's really not an option for most
americans. you know, this is just the world we live in at this point and to say it's our fault our data is being collected by dozens of companies, this isn't just google or facebook, any app on your phone can be selling that data and they anommize it, but it doesn't mean it can be combined with other data sets, slice and diced and be used astist in this case to identify specific people doing specific things. >> congressman khanna, how do you manage this, how do you propose the idea that the government does get involved in regulation of this in a sophisticated way without, you know, without crushing industries that are probably pretty good and useful to people. but this isn't what it's designed for, right? people are not supposed to be using grindr so they can be outed. >> first of all this shows this isn't some technical issue. what happened to this priest is deeply scary and offensive.
basically you can use data to expose people, to manipulate them, to threaten them. this is why we need an internet bill of rights that has clear, informed consent which informs people you have to opt in, not requiring you to opt out. it's why we need to have data minimization. you shouldn't be allowed to collect data that's not necessary. and the consent shouldn't just be for collecting the data. it should apply to anyone who uses the data. we know what we need to do, it's just congress -- >> i want to just show some polls to you both. the morning consult did a poll that said should congress prioritize priority legislation among americans. 83% yes, 8% no, 9% no opinion. morning call did another poll about that in which it's 86% yes, 6% no, and 8% no opinion.
this is bipartisan, but garret, do we know what good legislation looks like? california has got some legislation. europe's got some legislation. europe's done more thinking about this than we have. do you know how we get good legislation that allows you to use your phone the way you want to use it? >> there's a ton of proposals out there. europe has had privacy regulation for a couple years now. i think a lot of people would say it maybe hasn't been quite as effective as people wanted it to be. i think really the problem is we just sort of, you know, created this situation where commercially we're used to using a lot of things for free. and the way that's funded has been through advertising. and yo you might download a whether app and say oh, this is just to see what the weather is in my area. of course i'm going to share my location with them so i can see
what the weather in my area is. in those terms of service you agree to they're taking that location data and selling it to the data broker and selling it to someone else. so that whole system would have to change. >> congressman khanna, it does seem there's bipartisan support for this. is there some meaningful legislation that can tackle this? the hearings we've had on social media and the internet have not been all that fulfilling recently. >> oh, there is. this was originally after the cambridge analytic scandal we have the internet bill of rights almost 3 1/2 years ago, every six months they tell me the energy and commerce committee is going to come up with privacy legislation. they haven't done it, and it's because there are a lot of special interests that are involved. and garret is absolutely right that europe's legislation wasn't effective. i represent silicon valley, and these tech companies have created dark patterns to get people to consent.
basically they have screens that were brighter and boxes that forced people to check. so we need to beef up the technological competency of our regulatory agency. right now they're running circles around congress and around the regulators. >> thanks to both of you for this important conversation. you've got tonight's "last word." "the 11th hour" with brian williams begins right now. well, good evening once again. day 184 of the biden administration, which is now as you know racing to control this latest rapidly worsening surge of virus in our country. this spike fueled by the delta variant and ripping through communities with large numbers of unvaccinated americans. and so once again today the cdc was forced to sound the alarm, calling this is a pivotal moment in the fight against this pandemic. >> take the delta variant seriously.