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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 22, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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shouldn't whether you're a democrat or republican. we saw senator mitt romney stand up when there was misinformation. we saw liz cheney do the same. honestly ten years ago i thought that would have been senator grassley, unfortunately it's not anymore. >> with that, we're going to leave it there. former congresswoman abby finkenauer, thank you very much for coming to the reidout. tonight on "all in." >> i was ready to get the vaccine. >> please take covid seriously. >> these vaccines are saving lives. >> after months of silence and misinformation, republicans start promoting the covid vaccine. >> i think it was sort of as we catholics say a bit of an epiphany for them. >> what's behind the sudden republican turnaround and will it work. >> it was a loving crowd. i heard that from anybody.
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many, many people have told me that was a loving crowd. >> as republicans try to rehabilitate the violent crowd of insurrectionists -- >> when statements are ridiculous and fall into the realm of you must be kidding, there's no way they're going to be on the committee. >> pelosi rejects the republicans trying to . good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. you've noticed what we've noticed, right? in the last few days seems someone hate button. covid vaccines are saving lives, they're safe and effective, and a great way of protecting you, your family, and loved ones because the scourge of covid, a respiratory virus that's already killed more than 600,000 americans, and at various points brought our hospitals and broader society to its knees.
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>> please take covid seriously. i can't say it enough. enough people have died. we don't need anymore deaths. >> america, we're in this together. >> and if you can, get the vaccine. >> for information on vaccine sites, visit the vaccine finder on the homepage of >> you see 95% of people in the hospital for covid are not vaccinated. i've always felt it was safe and effective. >> these shots need to get into everybody's arm as rapidly as possible or we're going to be back in a situation in the fall that we don't yes or no for that we went through last year. >> if you are vaccinated, fully vaccinated, the chance of you getting seriously ill or dying from covid is effectively zero. >> all of this is great and very welcome, but it is striking to see someone like ron desantis
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getting up and saying, hey, guys, the vaccines will save your lives. it is bizarre because seeing it makes you realize just how completely absent republicans have been for all this time. we, of course, have covered the anti-vax or anti-pro-vax just asking questions juvenile trolling from fox news and the irresponsible wildly insidious way they have covered the pandemic, but it is strange how much mainstream republicans, the big mouth pieces for conservatism have been essentially absent on the whole question altogether. i think that is because from the beginning huge parts of the republican party have seen the pandemic as fundamentally a political problem rather than a once in a lifetime health crisis. the most important thing to donald trump who was the leader of the republican party and was president when the pandemic hit is what the pandemic was doing to the stock market and, therefore, his re-election campaign.
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on monday, march 9th, 2020, with the stock market expected to fall, trump tried to bluff his way through, tweeting the fakes news media and their partner, the democrat party, is doing within its semiconsiderable power to inflame the coronavirus situation far beyond what the facts would warrant. surgeon general, the risk is low to the average american. the dow fell 8% that day. three days later on thursday, it fell 10% for what was the worst day since the 1987 crash. on friday to rally the market, trump penetrated a bunch of ceos in the rose garden in the afternoon, made a bunch of empty promises that google has 1,700 engineers working on a website to facilitate covid testing. they did not have 1,700 engineers working on that. and then when the dow finished higher that day after a terrible week, trump signed the stock chart and gave it to his loyal
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supporter, lou dobbs, of fox business. that did nothing to stop covid from spreading, right? trump never actually cared about stopping covid from spreading, about stopping people from getting sick. just the week before that, he had openly admitted he did not want to let americans infected with covid off a cruise ship because, quote, i'd rather have them stay on, i don't need the numbers to double. now, trump is a special case, okay? he's a sociopath who i believe actually lacks the ability to actually appreciate human suffering and loss at a very deep level, just actually can't do it. and because he treated the disease like a public relations issue, that set the tone for the rest of the party. it wasn't just trump. texas senator ted cruz echoing the exact same cynicism exactly one year ago today. >> if it ends up that biden wins in november -- i hope he doesn't, i don't think he will -- but if he does, i
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guarantee you the week after the election, suddenly all those democratic governors, all those democratic mayors will say everything's magically better. go back to work, go back to school, suddenly the problems are solved. you won't even have to wait for biden to be sworn in. all they'll need is election day and their willingness to destroy people's lives and livelihoods, they will have accomplished their task. it's wrong and cynical and we shouldn't be a part of it. >> utterly completely in every possible conceivable way wrong, the u.s. astoundingly, beautifully wrong. it was republicans that rushed to open up sooner, even after biden biden was elected. democratic states, teen schools more reticent, just completely wrong. ted cruz, absolutely wrong. it's not how things shook out. but it's so revealing. why did he make that mistake? because ted cruz himself only views the pandemic through a political prism. and so he projects it onto
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everyone else. he thinks democrats do too. florida governor ron desantis consistently played down the virus and was applauded by republicans for winning the pandemic. last week he started selling anti-covid expertise merchandise, including lockdown cozies and t-shirts that read "don't fauci my florida." that's all about political positioning. it was all about political positioning. to be fair, there's been a lot of political posturing around the pandemic from democrats and liberals as well, there has been. but the deep problem here is that there's always been this sense among republicans and republican politicians, not all of them, but the vast majority, that covid is essentially an invented threat. the libs are more or less making this up, you just need to manage it and move along and not freak out. now, i do think there's a complex relationship between who's leading the pushback to
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covid skprksz who's following. but if you gave most republican politicians truth serum, i think they would tell you that once the vaccines were available, the goal for republicans was essentially to have their cake and eat it too. meaning, let the biden administration, which i think republicans secretly know is far more competent than the trump administration, generally wants to solve the problem, let the biden administration handle the crisis. let them administrator the vaccine across the country, but don't help them. maybe also flirt with anti-pro-vax rhetoric like tucker carlson. that way you can have your cake and eat it too. you get your state vaccinated, open up businesses, not submerge your hospitals, while also wiping your hands of the whole thing and maintaining your base that has been radicalized from
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health measures in general. the perfect example of the inherent contradictions of this are the republicans who refuse to say if they are vaccinated. tucker carlson, for example, is using the same line to multiple reporters, comparing sharing his vaccination status to sharing his favorite sex positions. he's used that line multiple times. it's the kind of line that would maybe be clever from a 12-year-old. he's very proud of it. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene claimed that asking her status at a press conference the other day is a hipaa violation. it's not. and wouldn't you expect her to be the first person to just tell you she's not vaccinated and be proud about it? >> for some reason she didn't want to answer. neither did tucker kafrmts i wonder what their status is. today congressman jackson asked why democrats don't get asked, and the answer is because they
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have been and told everyone because they want other people to get vaccinated. in fact, a bunch of reporters called every member of congress and every democratic member of congress said, yeah, i got vaccinated. you should too, because they wants people to not get killed from covid. and i think what's happened here as i try to make sense of it, with all the propaganda and the political posturing, a lot of republicans convinced themselves it really is not that big a deal, that they can get away with a hands-off approach. but guess what? we keep relearning the same lesson over and over again, don't we, folks? doesn't go anywhere. it's the same thing. it's out there. we may be done with covid, covid's not done with us. we got a variant that is 60% more transmissible than the original virus, huge pools of unvaccinated people, and nearly all restrictions that were helping to keep the virus in check on venues and businesses and social events, nightclubs, concerts, are gone.
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so what do you think all three of those things add up to? well, you get an outbreak like dr. peter hotez said would happen. >> remember at this time last year we were looking pretty good and then we had that enormous acceleration after the july 4th holiday, july, august. september was terrible in this part of the country, and we have to assume that mother nature is telling us that the same thing is going to happen again. i'm holding my breath over the south as to what happens this summer. >> he's not a politician. just because he's an expert, doesn't mean he's infallible, but he doesn't have a dog in the fight from a political standpoint. that's his best assessment. here's florida governor ron desantis on fox news with laura ingraham laughing at him. here's where florida cases are now. this is what the graph looks like. look at that spike at the end. so thank you, governor desantis,
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for telling people to get vaccinated. but we really could have used this sooner. i'm glad you're doing it. maybe instead of selling t-shirts and cozies, we can talk about how the vaccine has saved people's lives. this is not about people with a certain political persuasion getting the virus or dying of it. i don't care. no one cares, really, i think. it's really not about politics. everything is about politics at some level, but this shouldn't with about politics in the way it has become. i hope this is a final moment to change that model of thinking among everyone alike, that this this fundamentally a political problem to solve. let's get everyone vaccinated and save as many lives as possible, and then we can fight about all the other stuff later, okay? ron airing is a republican strategist, spokesperson for ted cruz and joined other republicans candidates as well. i wanted to talk to you because
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you have been someone who's very conservative. we don't see eye to vie eye on much, but you've been outspoken about vaccinations, about the benefits of them, and the need for folks to get vaccinated. and i wonder, as someone who works in republican politics, what do you think has happened in the last few days? >> well, i think clearly something happened back in washington, but i don't work in washington. i live in california where the republicans i work with every day on our recall campaign to place gray davis have grejd people to get vaccinated. i got vaccinated on the very first day i possibly could, even though the only appointment i got from three hours away from home. i got my moderna shot. i got the second shot, you know, two weeks thereafter. and i feel much better for it. and i think it's incumbent upon opinion leaders of all backgrounds to encourage people who are able to get the vaccine to do so so that we can put this pandemic away because if we fail
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to do so and this becomes endemic, we'll be dealing with this forever, and we have an opportunity to get rid of this disease now. but the only way to do that is by getting 80%, 90% of americans vaccinated, and that means people from all different backgrounds who have influence should be encouraging people who follow them, opinion leaders, to do so and share their story. what happened, i had soreness on my arm. the risk of covid is greater than any risk from the vaccine. >> yeah. you mentioned the recall of gray davis, which was the last recall. it's gavin newsom, but i understand why you would say gray davis because republicans did succeed that time around. we'll see what happens. >> we did. >> this time. i want to play you this clip that has been going around from cbs news that shows, like, there is machinery. it's largely on the right.
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but there has been this machine messaging folks that there's a nefarious thing to be skeptical of. this was an individual who got covid explaining why he will not get vaccinated even after this. take a look. >> here i am recovering, getting out of here finally tomorrow. am i going to get a vaccine? no. >> why not? >> because there's too many issues with these vaccines. >> this father, former baseball coach, small business owner, and hunter caught covid and then he developed pneumonia. >> before you got sick, if you would have had a chance to get the vaccine and prevent this, would you have taken the vaccine? >> nope. >> you would have gone through this? >> i would have gone through this, yes, sir. don't shove it down my throat. that's what's local, state, federal administration is trying to do, is shove it down your throat. >> what are they shoving, the science? >> they're shoving the fact that
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that's their agenda. the agenda is to get you vaccinated. >> ron, i thought that was a fascinating clip because there's not really a substantive objection, it's the fact that those people are trying to make you, which has been a lot of the focus. >> i live in san diego, home of jonas is all who developed the polio vaccine. clearly vaccines are something that have been the greatest medical advancement of the 20th century and it's incredible that we were able to develop a vaccine for covid so quickly. when i watch that footage, of course, i'm thankful that this gentleman did not succumb to the disease like 600,000 americans and countless others around the world. but i don't think it's "a" television reporter is going to be the right person to persuade him. it's going to take peers, opinion leaders, and so on. anti-vaccine activism didn't
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begin with covid, it did not begin with republicans. here in california we were dealing with outbreaks, if you recall, at disney of measles, and we have a whooping cough epidemic here, resurgence of whooping cough. we have pockets of that occurring in places which were more left leaning because people like robert f. kennedy jr. were having an effect there. it's not a left or right thing, but it's going to take the broad spectrum of opinion leaders to weigh in and do what we can. but we have to be persuasive. we can't berate people because the point is to save lives. we do so by making sure that people understand that the virus is the fire and people are the fuel, and we have to separate the two. the way we insulate ourselves from that fire is vaccination. it's safe, effective.
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it's incredible effective. the reurgency of covid right now is happening mudge people have haven't gotten the vaccine and they need to get it. >> yeah. there's an interesting ideology mix in the anti-vax movement. we've seen a bit after realignment where it's moved further right, in fact, it's brought people into the right interestingly enough. we've seen it across the world in other countries where there's been a soft interesting alignment there. but i think, look, i'm on board with you 100%. whatever it takes, whoever the messenger is, i hope that people stay on this. it's not just a one-week thing. thank you so much for making time tonight. >> you see, we do agree on something. thank you. >> vaccines, the great uniter. please don't let yourself get a bad case of coasted if you can avoid it. yesterday pelosi put an end to the republican effort to disrupt the work of the select
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cheat on january 6th. there's new reporting the speaker is adding even more republicans to the already-bipartisan investigation. mehdi hassan and katie hill are here to talk about it all here next. ♪ ♪ avoid it. here to talk about it all here avoid it. here to talk about it all here with cutting-edge tech, world-class interiors, and peerless design... their only competition is each other. the incomparable mercedes-benz suvs. extraordinary runs in the family. visit your local mercedes-benz dealer today for exceptional lease and financing offers.
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and see how golo can change your life. that's you had hundreds of thousands of people, i would venture to say -- i think it was the largest crude i've ever spoken before. it went from that point, which is almost at the white house, to beyond the washington monument. it was -- and wide.
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and -- >> but if you could have waved your wand -- >> and it was a loving crowd too, by the way. there was a lot of love. that was a loving crowd. >> that was former president donald trump talking to "washington post" reporters carol leonnig and philip rucker about the loving crowd before the insurrection. now, more than 500 people from this said loving crowd who marched to the capitol and started a riot have been arrested. as the massive investigation into what happened that day continues, the house select committee is now moving forward. today the speaker nancy pelosi defended her decision to continue without any of the five republicans picked by house minority leader kevin mccarthy after she vetoed two of them and he pulled the remaining three. >> the select committee is bipartisan and it has a quorum. my responsibility as speaker of
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the house to make sure we get to the truth on this and we will not let their antics stand in the way of that. >> one republican, liz cheney of wyoming, remains on the committee. there have reportedly been discussions of adding others, such as adam kinzinger from illinois. mehdi hassan and katie hill, founder of political action group her time and author of "she will rise." katie, let me start with you as someone who served under nancy pelosi, what you think of the move she made here, whether it surprised you because it surprised me a bit, actually. >> it didn't surprise me that she took jordan and banks off. having those two on there would be like having one of bin laden ice lieutenants serve on the commission to investigating 9/11. it sounds maybe extreme, but jim jordan and his colleagues, so many of his republican colleagues played a role in what
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happened january 6th. to pretend otherwise is completely disingenuous and she's too smart to that. i sat on oversight with him. he would do everything he could to derail, distract, just completely undermine the commission itself. and i think saying forget it, we're not going to be part of this circus is the right move. >> mehdi, one of the things i think that came through yesterday was the republicans didn't want a bipartisan commission because they didn't want something with gravitas and they didn't want something they could one down as partisan. they were always going to say the select committee is partisan. if they're going to do that anyway, they said why give them a big platform to just throw, you know, dust in the air? >> exactly. there are certain objective truths here. it is bipartisan because liz cheney is on the committee, whatever you think of liz
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cheney, he's on it. another objective truth is that they would have complained anyway. they already were complaining. and the third objective truth is this, is that the credibility of this committee is now increased, not decreased. too many neutral journalists are saying, oh, this will affect the credibility of the committee. no, only if you let it, if you actually report what's going on, which is jim jordan was removed from the committee as someone who was there to destroy it from within. jim banks, who said that was his goal to talk about antifa and the left, jim jordan is a potential material witness. katie talked about their involvement. gym jordan was at a stop the steal rally. he spoke at a stop the steal rally december 12th in georgia he was in the white house conspiring with donald trump. so i would like the community to investigate those things. i don't want jim jordan
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investigating himself. i don't want a 9/11 truther investigating 9/11. i don't want people who are pro-insurrection investigating an insurrection. >> all of that is very well said. banks was on this republican study committee trip to the boarder where there was someone inside the capitol on the day of the riot who was along with them and pictures were taken. this is fairly fresh in people's minds. it points to the difficulty that i'm watching whether you look at corporate america with its donations, it's hard for people to maintain the line that was erected about that vote and the violation and taboo of the vote and resist the pull of getting back to normal and maintain that day after day. >> yeah. that's exactly what the republicans who are perpetuating this lie and who are rewriting the narrative of what happened on january 6th are counting on. they know the more it's
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normalized, the more they continue acting like it was a regular day of tourism or it was simply a failed security thing, all of that is part of the actual intention behind it. you know, they had their opportunity to do a bipartisan commission. they had the chance to do that and they came up with these ridiculous reasons that they couldn't do it then or they wouldn't do it then. so let's not pretend that this is anything except for them trying to prohibit us from finding the truth. we have to get to the bottom of it. if it means that democrats are doing it on their own with the very few republicans that are willing to stand up to their party and to this craziness that has taken hold of it, the republican party is not a legitimate party anymore. i don't think anyone who is rational at this point can say otherwise. >> yeah. and i think there's this talk now, mehdi about adam kinzinger, who also voted for impeachment, who's been incredibly critical of the insurrection and of trump
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maybe being added by pelosi. we have the same view of liz cheney's views, politics, and record in public life, which is a big two thumbs down. other than this. but, but, but, it does strike me as important to sort of keep this line as a dividing line, the same way with vaccinations. you know, it strikes me that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to put a republican on to trust. >> we have to be clear, chris. what is the purpose? what is the goal? the same wing of the republican party is now liz cheney, promoter of the iraq war, defender of cia torture. adam kinzinger, add him, don't
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add him, 55% of trump voters say they believe the attack on the capitol was a defense of freedom. that is bonkers. i don't know how you deal with that. i don't know what the solution to that is. we know where that's coming from, it's coming from our friends on another channel right now, and it's a real, real problem because next time round and there will be a next time, the republican voters will be encouraging an insurrection, not just defending it or lying about it, but encouraging it. >> yeah. you're right that kinzinger does not solve that problem. mehdi hassan, katie hill, thank you both. appreciate it. coming up, we have big updates on two stories we've been covering here. first, in tennessee where a monument to a founder of the kkk is finally about to be removed from the state house. remarkable new reporting about the kidnapping plot of michigan governor gretchen
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. nathan bedford forest is one of the greatest villains of american history, and you may not know too much about him depending on what you learned in school. he's plantation owner and slave trader who quickly became a general. his most infamous act in that position in the war came at the battle of fort pillow in 1864 when his soldiers slaughtered many troops, many of whom were black and attempting to surrender. it was an atrocity. it was recognized as such at the time. this was an article from april 14th, 1864, telling of a horrific massacre. the dead and wounded burned by confederate forces. it reverberated as one of the most vile crimes of the civil war. nathan bed ford forest wasn't
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dunn yet. that have the confederate was defeated, forest managed to escape justice. he was not imprisoned or executed. he became an early member of the ku klux klan. he was the first and most in courts grand wizard of the kkk. in 1978, 100 years after his death, the tennessee state capitol installed a bust in his honor. the bust, as you might imagine, drew opposition and protest as well as support from, well, the kkk, who are pictured here holding a press conference in front of it in 1980. they, of course, would love to see one of their former members represented in the state capitol, wouldn't they? a lot of people have been trying to get rid of nathan bedford forest's bust ever since it was installed. regular protests have been going on since 2015. tennessee state representative london lamar was part of that fight. earlier this year she told us why removing the bust was so important to her.
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>> every day i have to walk in to make legislation for all people of tennessee, i have to walk past a klansman before i go into the people's house. our state capitol is recognizing and supporting the first grand wizard of the kkk in a building that should be a building where all people can feel that we are entering these chambers to represent them and make their lives better. >> well, today, finally, we got word the bust will be removed. the state building commission voted 5-2 to approve the relocation of the forest bust to the tennessee state museum. the two "no" votes were from republican house speaker and lieutenant governor. this afternoon crews began preparing for the move. again, nathan bedford forest is not some on-the-bubble figure with a complicated legacy. he was one of the most loathed men in the country at the time. he was a despicable war criminal and it's about time this monument to him and the evil he
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three months before the january 6th insurrection, there was another group that had been talking about storming a state capitol and instigating a civil war. they were also hatching a in front of the kidnap michigan governor gretchen whitmer. they spied on her vacation home and wanted to blow up a bridge to distract authorities. they indicated they wanted to take the governor hostage and take her to a secure location in wisconsin for a, quote, trial. the six men were charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping, which can carry a life sentence. governor whitmer at the time tied the plot to donald trump and his criticism of her and her state over covid protocols. you will remember in april of last year while michigan was in lockdown because of the virus, trump tweeted liberate michigan. two weeks later, protests entered the michigan senate gallery and tried to force their way into the chambers.
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some of those folks were armed. now a investigative report in buzzfeed talks about the roles fbi informants played in the plot in breaking it up. jessica garrison is a reporter for buzzfeed and the coauthor of that investigation and she joins me now. jessica, first of all, great piece of reporting. the big revolution in your piece is that a number of people involved in this plot, involved in this group, involved in organizing it were themselves fbi informants. tell us more about that. >> so, i mean, i think it's true that, you know, we always knew, even from the moment the case was announced, that there was at least one informant. in fact, at least two, and they had been in the plot. the great revelation of our reporting and also of what's come out in the court documents and in other media, including
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the "detroit free press," which has done a great job on this, is there were as many as 12 informants, and that those informants played a much larger, more active role. one of the informants rose to become the second in command of the wolverine watchmen. he trained the watchmen. another informant invited people to a bunch of meetings, one in ohio, one in delaware. so to inform mants were not just passively sitting there wearing wires. they were actively involved with the group. >> now, one of the informants you talked about, is origin story is fascinating. he joins in this group, libertarian, doesn't like lockdown, but then gets real freaked out by what he sees and basically goes to law enforcement and says, like, i
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don't like this. >> yeah. i mean, and he's actually testified in court. that's exactly right. he sort of wants to train with militia groups and he wants to keep himself in fighting shape. he goes to facebook and starts looking and facebook suggests to him this group called the watchmen. he goes to it and he fills out a little survey. he's then invited to fill out another survey and before he knows it, he's on an encrypted chat on an app called wire where people are talking about killing police officers. this guy is, like, wait a minute, i want to run around in the woods shooting guns. i don't want to kill police officers. so he goes to a friend who is a local police officer and shows him his phone. and the friend connects him with the fbi and he goes to the fbi and he's basically, like, you know, i just think you should know this. and he kind of figures we're done here, the fbi has got it. but the fbi says, well, we'd
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like you to rejoin the group, but this time with us kind of sitting on your shoulder watching and advising. which he does. and before too long, because he is a trained soldier, everyone is, like, oh, you're great, you could really help us. so he becomes the second in command. and then brings this group -- plays, you know, is there when they connect with groups around the country, including a man from michigan who later is identified as the kind of ring leader of the plot to kidnap the governor. >> so both the subtext is that people who are in this plot, allegedly, have claimed essentially they were entrapped, that this sort of fbi agent's crawling all of them, pushing them to do things they otherwise wouldn't have done, this was idle chatter.
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in a lot of war on terror cases, there's infamously a guy who had someone ask him to sell him a surface to air missile and both of those were informants and he ended up being prosecuted by chris christie when he was a u.s. attorney. what i learned from your story is it didn't seem egregious at all but seems like a complicated question of what side of the line is good policing and entrapment? >> that's a really good question. some of the stuff on the war on terror makes you go, wait a minute. this is interesting because it's very nuanced. you know, the idea of being angry at gretchen whitmer and the idea of, you know, going to the capitol with guns, those were ideas the fbi did not plant those ideas in the minds of these people. you know, they were actively engaged and actively talking
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about a lot of stuff that, you know, i think most people would consider, like, quite horrifying and shocking. you know, i think as a general rule, often if the evidence against you -- in this case it's, like, 400,000 text messages, hundreds of hours of wiretaps. you know, i'm not sure there are many other defenses available besides entrapment because there's a lot of evidence. you know, that said, i think for someone who doesn't, you know, follow these cases and these kinds of cases closely, that the role of the fbi in helping to really work with these people, befriend these people, text these people at all hours of the day and night, be with them all the time is quite huge. >> yeah. yeah. and the question that lingers on your reporting is but for those informants, does this plot come together and do you not catch people who would have done
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something really grisly without it? it's a great piece of reporting. jessica garrison, thank you so much for making time >> on the thank you so much. have a great night. still ahead, should health care workers be required to get the covid vaccine? the debate over vaccine requirements in health care settings after this. okay, it's an app that compares hundreds of travel sites for hotels and cars and vacation rentals like kayak does for flights. so it's kayak. yeah, like kayak. why don't you just call it kayak. i'm calling it... canoe. compare hundreds of travel sites for thousands of trips. kayak. search one and done. vo: the climate crisis is here. berardelli: these temperatures are almost unbelievable compare hundreds of travel sites for thousands of trips. even for a meteorologist. vo: and the solution is here too: clean energy. like wind turbines and solar panels. now, congress has to invest in it and the millions of workers
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the national institutes of health is the primary government agency for biomedical and public health research. it's huge and an annual budget of $42 million. dr. francis collins was on the show and i asked him about vaccine requirements and his answer kind of drew me for a loop. >> i'm at a hospital. the national institutes of health has the largest research hospital in the world. i would like very much to be sure that all the people who interact withium no compromised patients are immunized against
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covid-19. right now i can't require it but i sure as heck am exhorting people to do that. >> you got that, the largest research hospital on the planet does not yet have the authority to require vaccines among its employees even though more and more local hospitals are doing just that. banner health says it's work force must be vaccinated by november 1st. over 150 health care workers refused or either resigned or were fired as a result. in new york city mayor bill de blasio is mandating workers in city run get vaccinated or tested on a weekly basis. right now only about 60% are vaccinated. a vaccine mandate simply puts it into effect health care workers promise to patients and the community. pat gain is a registered nurse, executive director of the new
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york state nurse's association, and she joins me now. pat, thanks so much for having me on. first of all, are you vaccinated yourself? >> yes, chris, i was vaccinated in january and i also volunteered at a city run vaccination center. >> what are your -- in your membership of nurses in new york do you have a sense of what the numbers are in terms of vaccination of the folks in your membership? >> i would say among our members we're at least over 70% right now. >> now my understanding is there's talk about a vaccine mandate in new york, and your union is opposed to it which i found somewhat surprising although i could kind of understand the logic of it. explain your opposition to a vaccine requirement. >> thanks a lot, chris. and thanks for having me on. our opposition to a mandate is really that in the face of
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employers fighting us on having proper infection control, fighting compensation claims of health care workers, fighting osha citations, we don't think it's appropriate for them to be mandating vaccination until they meet our demands and do the things we've been asking them to do really since before covid hit this country. >> but that just makes it sound like you're using the vaccination requirement as a kind of bargaining chip in a negotiation even though it seems plainly the case that it would make everyone in that hospital safer if all the health care workers were vaccinated. >> well, actually vaccination isn't enough, and i think we've seen that recently. it's no surprise that the spike we're seeing and the surge we're seeing in cases is happening right after mask mandates and social distancing were lifted. so vaccination alone isn't the
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only thing that's going to keep you safe. and our patients in hospitals if we just vaccinate the health care workers but we're not implementing proper infection control standards, recognizing timely airborne transmission, our patients are not going to be safe in the hospital. it's just the workers that are vaccinated. >> well, right, but that's -- i'm just confused because it sounds like it's not sufficient, but it does seem like it's better -- i agree with you that vaccination itself particularly in a hospital setting is not the beginning and the end of the question of infection control. but it is the beginning when there's a safe and available vaccine to -- i mean just at the sense of population level risk, like, clearly there will be lower population level risk of infection amongst a vaccinated work force than one that's 70% vaccinated or 50% or whatever. >> as long as we're doing the other things that we need to do,
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proper source control and proper infection control then i would agree with you. look, i'm not arguing at all that i want all of my nurses to be vaccinated. i do not want to lose another nurse to this disease or have an infected family member. we're absolutely encouraging our members to get vaccinated and encouraging them to talk to other other. our objective really is we're nurses and whenever we talk to patients we know when force comes into the equation we lose their trust. and right now we believe that the priority is to win back the trust of health care workers. and really help them heal from the trauma they've been through. i mean, i think it's just incredible to be questioning the dedication of health care workers right now when we've seen them time and time and again really put their lives at risk to go in there and care for these patients. >> well, i just want to be clear i'm not questioning the
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dedication. i think actually i'm really just trying to understand because precisely for the reason you talked about, we've talked to so many health care workers on this show over the past 18 months. we've seen the trauma in their eyes, the stories of unbelievable amounts of grief and exhaustion that has come from this that i think it's surprising to a lot of people -- and i've seen stats from systems that have stats 50% of vaccinated workers, inside a hospital setting a hotbed for infection who don't want to get vaccinated. it's what i'm trying to get my head around. >> i get that. is it really, though, surprising to everyone that health care workers are not trusting the system right now? this is the same system that fought them on proper infection control, and they're still doing
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that. really shouldn't surprise everyone there's a lot of -- that we really suffered a breach of trust among health care workers. >> trust i guess is the theme of our era in many ways. pat cain, thank you so much for making time tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. that is "all in" on this thursday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> good evening, chris. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. here's the front page today in the shreveport times in shreveport, louisiana. you see the arrow there, new surge. it says low vaccination rates and delta variant fuel rising numbers in new covid cases across the south. that's the shreveport times in louisiana. here's the front page in the news star which is up in monroe in northeast louisiana. hospitals see rise in covid cases. here's the front page today in the daily sun, which is t


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