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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  July 20, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT

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that's going to do it for us for tonight. for tomorrow keep an eye on things in washington around 2:30 eastern time. that's when we are expecting the first procedural vote on infrastructure, on the infrastructure bill that republicans are kind of sort of pretending to support so that they can drag out negotiations as long as possible and in the end vote against it anyway. tomorrow at 2:30 eastern will be the first real vote on that. as you can tell, i do not have high expectations for what's going to come of that vote but hey, take comfort in knowing just how often i am completely wrong about things like this. ha ha, we shall see. we'll talk about it tomorrow night. now time for "the last word" where ali is in for lawrence good evening. >> you skipped to part about how they will delay and vote against
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it. yet like other bills which are popular among americans somehow take credit for the passing of a bill they didn't show any support for. >> that's exactly riot. >> the more things change the more things change. good to see you. see you tomorrow. >> thank you. you too, thanks. >> we're tired of this. april 2020 brutal start of the covid pandemic the same month donald trump suggested americans might inject bleach to beat the virus and bill barr told donald trump point blank that he would lose reelection because voters were tired of the chaos of the trump administration according to the new book "i alone can fix it" by our first guest tonight karen rutger because most of us were tired of did then and are tired of it now that he's out of office. but something changed for the people who never grew tired, the tie-hard trump lovers and
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hard-core conservatives, it seems they're embracing the danger of jumping off the cliff with trump. case in point, this wild statement trump sent yesterday, people are refusing to take the vaccine because they don't trust the biden administration, they don't trust the election results. there was more but we're only repeating that because it's part of a broader point i'm trying to make. donald trump the most influential person in the republican party, by far, is still lying about the election and now is encouraging people to doubt the efficacy of the coronavirus vaccine at the same time. are you kidding me? trump himself got vaccinated in january. that's not just trump chaos. this is trump disinformation. this is trump disinformation that could kill. some conservatives finally seem
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to be growing tired of it, trump's long-time friend quarterback tom brady mocked trump at the white house for his election lies >> not a lot of people think that we could have won, in fact, i think about 40% of the people still don't think we won. >> i understand that. >> you understand that, mr. president. yeah. >> fox's sean hannity who usually helps to spread trump disinformation actually said this last night. >> please take covid seriously. i can't say it enough. enough people have died. we don't need any more deaths. research like crazy, talk to your doctors, medical professionals you trust based on your unique medical history and current medical condition and you and your doctor make a very important decision for your own safety. take it seriously. you also have a right to medical privacy. doctor/patient confidentiality is also important.
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it absolutely makes sense for americans to get vaccinated. i believe in the science, i believe in the science of vaccination. >> trump ally steve steve scalise number two house republican now apparently trusts the vaccines too after dodging whether or not he would get vaccinated, he got his first dose calling it safe and effective. nice. congratulations. these about-faces are important. con conservative voices could change the hearts of minds of -- ktd their vases could have made a big difference with republicans who doubted the seriousness of covid or who were hesitant to get vaccinated. kaiser foundation vaccination poll shows 23% of republicans will definitely not get vaccinated. a yahoo poll of unvaccinated
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americans one in three say vaccine pose a greater risk than the virus. americans are continuing to get covid. americans are continuing to die from covid. but now as the cdc director said it's a pandemic of the unvaccinated. more than 9 out of 10 americans who died from covid in the united states in june were unvaccinated according to dr. dpauc fauci. so what's it going to be trump lies that could kill or breaking free and telling the truth. some staunch allies seem to be say we're tired of people dieing because of trump's lies. now no more need to follow suit. more need to shout from the roof tops, we're tired of this. it may be the only way to save lives. leading off the discussion, co-authors of the new book "i alone can fix it" trump's
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catastrophic last year, congratulations to the two of you on a remarkable book. let me start with you, carol, there's an alternate universe donald trump could have and should have taken credit for some fascinating things, including a vaccine that was developed in part, in some cases, because of help by the u.s. government. he didn't have to be the guy who's at the head of a group of people who are vaccine is keptics. -- skeptics. what happened with trump saying i alone can fix this, into the trump that fixed nothing? >> you know, his alternate reality, the one he's living in, the one he talked about at length with phil and me when we interviewed him at mar-a-lago has only gotten more hardened over time. anything that doesn't help him has to be false. it's interesting too because it's particularly perverse to
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have someone not taking credit for the vaccine they pressured everyone to deliver. >> right. >> which donald trump did, he deserves some kraedit for that. it's also perverse to link the distrust of the election among his supporters, which he stowed and stoked for months, to acred. it's also perverse to link the distrust of the election among his supporters, which he stowed and stoked for months, to a encouraging people to distrust a vaccine that could save their lives. what we found about our report about donald trump's final catastrophic final year in our new book is that many people giving him expert advice at the time, insiders in the medical community were literally pulling their hair out in fear, in near-panic about him resisting their good guidance and they were shocked the degree to which he put american lives in peril for his own political benefit. it sounds a little bit like by
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linking election and vaccination distrust he's linking these things for his political benefit, again. >> phil, i'm trying to remember back to last spring and the moment i realized trump was going to end up on the wrong side of this thing. early, early on, when we had numbers of people vaccinated in either the single digits or low double-digits, an excerpt in your book which you write -- [ reading ] [ reading ] we remember he was at the cdc in atlanta. there was a ship-docking that had infected people and he didn't want it to happen because he said it would double or triple the numbers of covid people. the scientific community understood this was going to multiply because this was going
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to be a pandemic, the president siemianed in that moment to make a decision this was politics over pandemic. >> that's exactly right, and that was the president's mindset from day one of the pandemic. remember, even before anybody used the "p" word and called it a pandemic, trump was down playing the coronavirus saying it would disappear, saying it could go away with the warmer air, saying it was totally under control. his words. and when people started to get infected in the united states he tried to limit the number of tests, he didn't want those people who had been in china from coming back to the united states right away because he was worried the number of infections in the u.s. would go up and somehow weaken his political standing. what he didn't realize in the moment when he was trying to survive each news cycle day-to-day was that the compounding gravity of the coronavirus situation was creating an untenable political situation for him heading into his reelection.
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be all accounts according to the reporting for this books we talked to 140 senior administration officials, trump failed at managing this pandemic. and of course he failed also at managing race relations in this country. >> let's stick with this pandemic failure for a second. it wasn't just scientific experts advising against this but also political experts -- in the book you i'm not going to do it -- [ reading ] do it -- [ reading ] [ reading ] wear a mask, fabulous ry io fabi o i -- -- so all of those things, if that a
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so all of those things that continue to exist, i saw a movement, unmask our children, this mask thing, donald trump could have in the early days put an end it to it. is as simple as the fact he thought it makes him look weak? >> you know, what's interesting about that moment ali is the president when he said at the time, people tell me, what he really often was meaning was i feel that i look weak. i will tell you that we learned in our reporting that the chief of staff, mark meadows at the time counselled the medical and political advisors, no way, he can't wear a mask, he's already dug in on this, he can't do it, because his face will basically rebel. but donald trump himself believed that he looked weak and he told phil and i that about the importance in his mind of looking strong, looking healthy, looking impenatrable, that was
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important to him. the other sad thing about this moment, robert redfield the cdc director it's one of his greatest regrets, according to our reporting, he repeatedly tried to get the president and ultimately when failing to convince him, he tried to get the president's physician, shawn mcconnell connely to convince the president for his own safety, just that alone, wear the mask. but redfield knew and told connely and told aids if the president will s if the president will control contro aids -- >> this stuff continues today. stuff that feels like ancient history is just last spring. just today anthony fauci was testifying today before the committee and got into once again before senators rand paul, a man with medical education.
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let's play what happened between the two of them today. >> senators paul, i have never lied before the congress and i do not retract that statement. senators paul, you do not know what you are talking about, quite frankly, and i want to say that officially. you do not know what you are talking about. i totally recent the lie that you are now prop gating, senators. you are implying that what we did was responsible for the deaths of individual -- i totally resent that and if anybody is lying here, senators, it is you. >> so phil, that stuff that started then continues today. we talked about steve scalise getting an injection. and hannity telling people to take this seriously. it is july 2021. these decisions were being made in march and april of 2020 and they live -- they just have -- like a german cockroach, it just keeps on going.
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>> that's right. what an incredible exchange today between dr. fauci and senator paul and under coulders in which donald trump made anthony fauci a punching bag for his political base. fauci career scientist had one objective through 2020 that was to save lives and get america out of this pandemic and trump in part according to our reporting because he was jealous he tried to bludgeonon fauci and star him in the star him in th tar him in the minds of make america great followers. you see if today. with the republican lawmakers going after fauci trying to discredit him and lay blame in his hands for some of the deaths in this country as fauci is trying to do by all accounts the right thing and keep this country safe and frankly keep
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people vaccinated so we can move on. >> as i say good night i leave our viewers with one more excerpt from your book that i think answers question a lot of people have. the interview he said was a great honor and offered to do another and shrugged off the hours we spent asking the questions, i enjoyed it, trump said with a twinkle in his eye. we enjoy your time and i guess donald trump does too. the new book," i alone can fix it", donald trump's catastrophic final year. coming up the investigation of deadly insurrection at u.s. capitol with a troll event at the election caucus coming up chairman adam schiff with us next. us next
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america will finally have a chance to learn more about the january 6th attack on the capitol, a week from today the house select committee investigaing will share harrowing accounts how they came under attack from the mob that day. new cbs news poll finds 72% of americans, including 59% republicans believe there is, quote, more to learn, end quote, about what happened on january 6th. of course there is. how did these people know where to go, who let them in? who told them what would happen? who supported them? where did they get their money from? would the republicans on the select committee allow us to learn more or will they turn it into a another political circus designed to protect donald trump. mccarthy is a allowed five committee members three of the five republicans mccarthy chose
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embrace trump's big lie and voted to over turn the election against joe biden including psychofant fantastic jim jordan said this about ic jim jordan said this abou psychofant said this about this particularly committee >> we know what this is, this is impeachment round three to go after president trump. >> that's hey lie, kevin mccarthy wants republican congressman jim banks to serve number two on the committee, jim banks also voted to over turn the election said yesterday nancy pelosi created this committee solely to mal align conservatives and justify the left author yan agenda, that is also a lie. today nancy pelosi said this about whether theel approve the members. >> i'm considering his proposal and ike look to make it clear about how people voted on the president affirming the election of joe biden is not a criterion
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for service. that doesn't matter. >> what is the criterion. >> well you're going to find out. >> joining me now the chairman of the house intelligence committee and served as the lead impeachment manager in firstim impeachment trial of donald trump. i want to start with what nancy pelosi just said, i'm paraphrasing, she basically said voting to over turn or not certify the election on january 6th, which is a separate thing from the insurrection but they're connected, voting to do that is not disqualifying to be on the committee. i want to get your reaction to that. >> well, look, i think that the speaker has taken a position all along that we want to get to the truth. we want to get to the heart of the matter and we are willing to work with the other side. we're even willing to work, as she stated today, with people who voted to decertify the
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election. we're willing to have a commission with five democracy and five republicans in which not a single subpoena could go out if republicans uniformly objected. that was a heck of a leap of faith. kevin mccarthy didn't want that, donald trump didn't want any of that. they didn't want the truth to come out and it's reflected in the choices they made for the select committee now. we're going to confirm as a body to discuss and analyze what mccarthy is proposing. certainly some of them are being put on just to disrupt. we're not going to allow ourselves to be deterred, we're going to get to the truth of all of the facts regarding january 6th. >> so lots of people who may month' be conspiracy theorists or nonsense pedalers have said to me what jim jordan said, that this is just impeachment. you were the lead impeachment
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manager and chair of the house intel committee. you've seen all this stuff. what's your response to people who say this is just another go at impeachment. >> if it was another go at impeachment we would not propose the committee be equally divided went democracy and republicans as with the commission. we won have the had the bill in bipartisan faith that the ranking member agreed to. but they didn't want that because they don't want an honor inquiry into the facts of january 6th, to answer all of the questions you asked, how is was it organized? how was it paid for? what do people know in congress or the white house about the violence that was going to take place before the events of that day? was there advanced notice? what intelligence did we have or not have? most importantly what do we do to protect the country going forward. those are questions everyone american should want answered it's a very different inquiry on
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impeemt when looking whether or not to remove a president from office >> good point. you will hear from one sergeant with the u.s. capitol police who spoke to manny on july 6th and you may hear similar testimony from him at the committee. let's hear what he said to my colleague. >> when former president trump was in power, they say you cannot hold him accountable because he's out the door, leaving in a couple weeks, when he goes out of office then you can't hold him accountable because he's already out of the office. every single time they had the opportunity to hold the president -- the former president accountable they haven't. >> the sergeant goodel seems confused, mccarthy said after the impeachment vote there's methods to hold trump
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accountable, where are the methods, as far as republicans are concerned every time there's opportunity to hold donald trump accountable there's a reason why they shouldn't. >> there was a great moment after the insurrection when mitch mcconnell felt the pangs of conscious, some call to defend the republic but it was fleeting. he quickly realized if he tried to hold persons accountable he would lose his position and nothing's more important to him maintaining his position. kevin mccarthy is 100% political animal. the reality is the republican party is gone. you have a cult around donald trump. the legislative leadership in congress will do whatever he wants and of course they're not going to hold him accountable, they're afraid of his face. as long as that is true they'll continue to push out his lies big and small because that's is
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what their party is, it's an anti-truth party, an autocratic party and we need republicans of good conscious to take back the party because the system really depends on two healthy parties. >> chairman adam schiff thank you for joining me, he will be serving on the committee looking into january 6th. coming up, breaking news on the arrest of trump friend and confidant and chair of the trump inaugural committee. it's an apps hundreds of travel sites for hotels and cars and vacation rentals like kayak does for flights. so it's kayak. yeah, like kayak. why don't you just call it kayak. i'm calling it... canoe. compare hundreds of travel sites for thousands of trips. kayak. search one and done.
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yet another member of trump's inner circle has been indicted, the chair of trump's 2017 inaugural committee was arrested in california today and charged with failing to register as lobbyist of united arab emirates, required by the justice department.
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according to the "new york times" he used his position to publicly promote the uae's agenda while soliciting feedback and talking points from senior official s. he's been charged with obstruction of justice and making false statements during a 2019 interview with federal agents. a spokes person-to-person for mr. barrack will be pleading not guilty. he's asked to remain in custody until bail hearing. he's a very rich guy, citing his wealth, access to a jet, and his deep and long-standing ties to countries that don't have extradiction treats with the united states, mainly saudi arabia and uae.
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for those not keeping track at home, tom barrack is the 7th trump associate to be indicted. he was not associated with the campaign, adam brodie charged with failed to register as a federal agent like tom barrack, and pleaded guilty to this very act. he was pardoned by donald trump on his last day in office. hard to keep track of sometimes. guy to help us is a former acting u.s. general and contributor. most of these people didn't need the money, by the way. tom barrack certainly didn't need the money. what attracts what, does donald trump find these people, do they find him. i want to put up the screen to show all of the people connected to trump who have been indicted. talk to me about this, neil. >> yeah, i think the screen, as
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you said in the outset, this is yet another one of trump's confidants that have been indicted. astonishing thing today's indictment under scores had you how many people around donald trump are accused of crime, is global money, i don't know, it seems you have to be a felon in order to qualify to have a job with donald trump. that was the qualification. perhaps the biggest loser in all of this is allen weisselberg who just realized he could have been making uae money instead of just settling for tuition and what he got. >> by the way, you mentioned something interesting, there's a reason why these laws exist, this thing that jared kushner was involved in and barrack was involved in and others were involved in, which really became this fight between the country of qatar and saudi arabia and united emirates, it has
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real-world implications, working for federal government those countries embargoed qat qatar for a very, very long time. >> you said it, this goes back to the registration act of 1938 and advances one of the most serious purposes of government, saying look you want to lobby forea foreign government you got to tell us, be up and up about it, register in advance so everyone knows. the acquisition in this indictment are scary, basically one of trump's best friends was trying to insert stuff into trump speeches and other things, without acknowledging at all he was acting on behalf of a foreign government. that's been a flat violation of the law since well be before you and i were born. and it's big bucks. the indictment alleges possibly
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$1.5 billion that this fund, controlled by tom barrack got, and, you know, barrack's defense is i'm only 10% of that fund that's still $115 million, so the idea you can do that and profit this way, that's what the law is b. all about, blocking foreign influence in our government at least without disclosing. >> in general, speaking, the violation of this registration act are procedural, something where somebody hasn't filled something out, not everyone goes to jail for this sort of thing but there's a fundamental importance to the law as you just articulated. there's a reason it is there. it's about transparency. we need toe know when need toe e we need to know when decisions are made, if somebody else is influening the decisions of the united states government, it seems procedural and
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bureaucratic often the surface but there's a fundamentally good philosophical reason for laws like this. >> and it's not procedural it's heart of american government, again, you can lobby for a foreign government but you got to tell everyone. it's not unnolan. -- it's not unknown, everyone person in washington, d.c. knows about this act and knows to stay on the right side of it, the reason cases are not brought is not because it is technical or procedural it's because no one in their right mind would violate ate this. that's one and the number two, the indictment is not just about the foreign agent registration act but also the fact one of trump's best friend tom bhairk barrack lied to the fbi and faces four charges of lying during a voluntary interview. talk about digging your own grave >> yeah, yeah. i'm glad you brought that point
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up. it's not that i just forgot to submit the form. it's that the fbi asked me about this. he didn't say i'm not speaking to you, he had a right to do that. i watch it on "law and order" all the time. he didn't to that. he talked to them and now he's in trouble for it. neil, thank you for helping me through this, it puzzles me, boggles my mind. neil is former federal general and msnbc contributor. coming up we will speak to how she sees the fight for voting rights. the fight for voting rights
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majority w.h.i.p. and discussions with civil rights groups and later will speak with four secretaries of state and democrat ic legislatures from arizona, and georgia where already passed voting restrictions, kicking off the event, legendary civil rights icon who co founded farm workers of america. here's some of what she said yesterday to the texas democrats. >> it's happening right now, in many ways it's even more severe, it's broader, it's bigger than what was going on in the 60s. the soldiers were fighting for everybody, not just for texas, but fighting for arizona, fighting for all of those states where they are passing these laws to suppress the vote. standing up to the ideals and dreams of what america is and what america should be. >> joining us now dolores huerta
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civil rights activist and labor leader and co-founder with cesar chavez in 1962, dolores, not meaning to say anything about your age on tv, it's impolite, you started the agriculture a association since 1960 and been working on this since 1955 you were there at the frontlines of the civil rights fights in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 90s. it's never stopped for you. >> no, it hasn't. way back in the 50s actually in california we passed a law that people could vote in a spanish language and not only that got rid of the deputy registrars so anyone who is a citizen can register another person to vote. in california we have some of the most liberal voting rights,
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people can vote online, and they can register with their cellphones or computers. when you go to the dmv to get your driver's license you're automatically registered. we've had mail-in ballots for a long, long time now so we hope the other states catch up with us, especially texas, they have 40% population that's latino and if they could not have that voter suppression literally texas could turn blue. >> you and cesar chavez, your names are associated with farm worker, agriculture labor, but in fact in 1960 when you started, one of the things you did was voter registration drives for those agriculture workers. >> yes, absolutely, yeah. we came out of another organization called community-service organization and that was our entire focus was to get out there and go door to door to register people to vote and with my foundation we
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continue to do that exactly. i mention about texas being 40% latino population, you know, in the state of virginia which has only less than 8%, with the latino vote really helped to turn virginia from a red state to a blue state. a lot of people don't know that. >> what did you tell these folks from texas? because it looks, on some days, like a losing battle. they're going to go back to texas, many of them made face arrests, they're prepared to be arrested, it's not a criminal charge but the sergeant at arms can arrest them for not being in the house. but this is not going to end easily. without the majority of the texas house it may not end in their favor so what does someone like you with literally decades of voter registration and civil rights work have to say to them to keep their fight going >> well, first of all i want to thank them and tell them that all of the nation is grateful for their sacrifice, for them leaving their homes and children
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behind knowing they will be persecuted possibly arrested because of this courageous action they're taking, they're fighting for the voting rights of everybody, all of the people in those states, all of the republican legislatures are passing law to suppress the vote. they have joined the march of civil rights leaders like reverend dr. martin luther king and john lewis by the action they're taking. i hope all of the people in texas please see what the representatives are doing, do the work, they're gone right now in washington, d.c. but all of you down there in texas please do the work and go out and tell everybody, got of they've got to support, we've got to fight. really abraham lincoln said the ballot has more power than the bullet. the ballot has more power than the bullet. we have to fight for our voting rights because the soul of america is our democracy and we all have to stand up there and
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fight, because if not we will not keep our democracy if we don't engage, and fight for it. >> they decide to go to d.c. not oklahoma so they can have impact on and have conversations with federal legislate urijahs do you think e urijahs do you thin federal legislatures. do you think their message is going to resonate with the democratic senators who are standing in the way of moving off this filibuster so they can entrench the protections for voting rights that we need in this country? >> well, we hope they will. we hope the sacrifice they're making and so many others that this will reach their heart and conscienceness, and realize they're fighting for all of us. we have to fight to keep our nation a democratic society, if we don't fight we're going to lose it and we are at a critical point right now in our nation where there are some that don't care, they want power, they're greedy, they don't care about the working people or labor
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unions, people of color, women, so we got to stand up there and we are the ones that have to commit. we have these wonderful texas democrats paving the way and showing us, that if we have to sacrifice let's do that. let's make it happen. let's keep our democracy. >> well it's mighty generous of you to talk about them paving the way, they're doing a remarkable job but when we talk about people paving the way for civil rights your name goes to close to the top of that. thank you so much for joining us today, the labor leader and co-founder of farm workers of america. coming up six of those texas democrats all vaccinated have tested positive is this surprising in groups where the level of vaccination is almost complete? doctor joins us after this. doctor joinsus after this. above everything? you put muscle over matter.
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covid cases are on the rise across the united states. breakthrough cases which are positive coronavirus cases among the fully vaccinated are rare but they are contributing to that rise. several breakthrough cases have cropped up in washington, d.c. the capitol attending physician said today several vaccinated congressional staff members and one member of congress have been infected with the virus. a spokes person for house speaker nancy pelosi is among those staff members. the white house announced today a member of the biden administration has also contracted a strain of the coronavirus despite being fully vaccinated. press secretary jen psaki said it is not the first breakthrough case among white house staff. >> we know there will be breakthrough cases. cases in vaccinated individuals are typically mild. the white house is prepared for breakthrough cases with regular testing. this is a reminder of the efficacy of the covid-19 vaccines against illness or
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hospitalizations. cdc director rochelle walensky says the delta variant now accounts for 83% of all new covid cases in the united states. joining us now is the dean of the brown university school of public health. good to see you again. how worried should we be about this? in vaccinated circles people getting this delta variant or some version of koechbs? >> i think this is to be expected for a couple reasons. we are seeing massive cases in unvaccinated individuals. there is a lot of virus floating around. we are going to see a few breakthroughs. this is not totally surprising. the good news is the people with these breakthrough infections have had mild disease. that says the vaccines are working. we never thought they were a hundred percent and the best
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thing is to reduce the amount of infection in the community which is get more people vaccinated. >> i never really got my head around the term viral load when we are talking about how infectious something is compared to the flu a year ago. is the viral load such that people who are vaccinated can be spreading this to other people? >> they can but far less likely. that is the key thing. there are a couple differences between unvaccinated and vaccinated people. unvaccinated people obviously spread quite efficiently, spread when they don't have symptoms. vaccinated people tend to have much lower viral loads. they are much less likely to spread simtly and even when they have really bad symptoms they can spread it but not that common. >> the efficacy, we've seen certain studies that show the main vaccines have some degree of efficacy against the delta
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variant doesn't mean you are not going to get it, it means you can get it generally speaking, if you are vaccinated and you get this delta variant, will you experience lesser symptoms? >> yeah, exactly. there are two things going on. first, you are much less likely to get it. let's be very clear. if you are vaccinated you are less likely to get any kind of infection. but if you're unlucky enough to get infected you'll have much milder disease. i don't want to be infected. nobody does with any variant. what we care about most is avoiding hospitalizations and deaths. and the vaccines seem to be just really terrific at doing that. >> i want to play something dr. fauci said at a senate hearing today about the duration of efficacy of the vaccines. let's listen together. >> there are also areas of immunity that are more difficult to measure like t-cell responses. the one that seems to be very
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well correlated is the antibody level. we know from studies from the clinical trials as well as from animal studies that there is a baseline level below which you go, you are at much more vulnerable to getting a breakthrough infection. >> the question that he was being asked was about the duration of the efficacy of vaccines. as we get further away from the first people who got vaccinated, when these vaccines came out, does this become more of a danger? how does that work into this concept of booster shots? >> it is a great question. there is a lot we still don't know. here is how i think about it. there are two arms of the immunity, the antibodies dr. fauci was talking about, your kind of active forces. then you have your reserves the t-cells. what we're seeing is some early data that you get a little bit of waning of your active forces the antibody levels and so we're going to see more breakthrough cases. we're not seeing any waning of the t-cells the reserves. even if you get a breakthrough
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the t-cells kick in and prevent severe disease. we have very good data right now that says you'll have really long-term protection against severe illness but the breakthrough illnesses are a problem and we don't know when they'll start becoming more common. we may need a booster especially more vulnerable, high risk, imagine older people, people in nursing homes. i think they may need a booster shot sometime sooner rather than later. >> can this come to an end if we have a whole bunch of people who don't want to get vaccinated? >> boy, it is going to be a lot harder not just talking about this delta variant but future variants. to me, what is striking about people who have not yet gotten vaccinated is don't we all want to put this behind us? aren't we ready to move on from covid? i am. the only way that is going to happen is if 90%, 85%, 90% of people have immunity. we need a lot more people getting vaccinated and until that happens we'll continue struggling with this
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>> i did not guess that a year and a half later i would still have questions but i suspect i have a year and a half more questions to ask. the dean of brown university school of public health. he, like so many others, makes time for us to answer these questions. that's tonight's "last word." "the 11th hour with brian williams" begins right now. good evening once again. day 182 of the biden administration. tonight yet another member of the twice impeached former president's inner circle is in very deep trouble with the feds and behind bars, in fact. tom baric the billionaire who chaired the trump 2017 inaugural committee was arrested today on charges of illegally lobbying the trump administration on behalf of the united arab emirates. he is also accused of failing to register with the justice department as a foreign agent as well as obstruction and of lying

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