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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 16, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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and each episode, what i loved, they had a real, live african-american historian read over the episodes. it was amazing. so check it out. thank you so much, dean obeidallah and versha sharma. that's tonight's reidout. don't you worry because joy will be back on monday, so be sure to tune into tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern for "the cross connection." my guests include 1968 olympic gold medalist tommy smith. i'm so excited. and one of my favorite actors will also join me to talk about the new smithsonian latino museum. don't go anywhere because "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in," radicalized by the president six months after the trump insurrection, two trump supporters charged with plotting to blow up the democratic headquarters in california. then, ed young on the covid nightmare in missouri as the president speaks plainly on this
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information. >> reporter: on covid misinformation, what's your message to platforms like facebook? >> they're killing people. plus, a day after meeting texas democrats in d.c., why is joe manchin going to raise money with republicans in texas? and as the mega drought continued in the west, why the biden administration just rolled back a ridiculous trump era regulation. >> when i take a shower i want water to hit my hair instead of drop, drop. it is hard enough, my hair, without all of that. "all in" starts right now. good evening from chicago. i'm chris hayes. january 6th was, of course, a truly horrible day for our country, but what is getting more and more clear day by day by day is that it all could have been so much worse. we just learned the country dodged another metaphorical bullet through a federal indictment of two california trump supporters, ian rogers and jared copeland.
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according to the indictment, prompted by the outcome of the 2020 presidential election, rogers and copeland began to plan an attack against a target or targets these associated with democrats. by november 29th, 2020, they had identified the democratic headquarters in sacramento, california, as their first target and made plans to attack it using incendiary devices. rogers and copeland believed the attacks would start what they called a movement. but here is the thing. these guys were not idly fantasizing. according to the indictment, again, copeland told rogers he had contacted an anti-government militia group to attempt to gather support for their movement. on january 11, 2021, five days after the attack on the capitol, rogers told copeland, i want to blow up a democrat building bad. rogers said, let's see what happens after the 20th. of course, the day of president biden's inauguration. we go to war. according to his criminal complaint, rogers added, quote, i hope 45, donald trump, goes to war. if he doesn't, i will. donald trump does not go to war,
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i will. law enforcement officers suched rogers' home and business and seized between -- get this -- 45 and 50 firearms including at least three fully automatic weapons, which are illegal, thousands of rounds of ammunition and five pipe bombs. law enforcement officers said those pipe bombs that you see right there were fully operational and could, quote, cause great bodily harm or injury. in case you are wondering what kind of guns they had, this is the itemized list of all of the firearms listed in the indictment. just, you know, totally normal stuff everyone has lying around. we will talk more about who these guy, were, what they were planning in a second with one of the reporters on the story. if the allegations are true -- again, this is just a charging document. innocent until proven guilty. if it is true, these men are domestic terrorists planning a domestic terrorist attack inspired by donald trump. that's not hyperbole. remember, this is not the first unsuccessful attempt to do mass damage. one of the great unsolved
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mysteries to this day of january 6th, one of the most haunting is this person. whoever he or she is, who planted the pipe barns by the rnc and dnc is night before the insurrection, which were luckily discovered before they went off. another metaphorical bullet we dodged. we don't know who is the person that set up those bombs. we know there's a huge cadre of people radicalized by the president, whipped into a frenzy and aimed like a loaded gun at the capitol. we have more reporting on this obvious truth, that trump enjoyed watching the insurrection, that he rebuffed multiple attempts to wash it. in the new book, "washington post" reporters reported that trump was glued to the tv. it was reported that ivanka trump spent several hours walking back and forth to the oval, trying to persuade the president to be stronger in telling his supporters he stood with law enforcement and ordering them to disburse. hundreds of people have been arrested since that day, but there are millions more who
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still fervently support donald trump. an article adapted from his new book, wall street reporter michael bender provides a window into the dangerous, most cultish devotion to trump, the folks that follow him from rally to rally called front row joes. one, randall thom, a 60-year-old ex-marine with a long gray mustache, fell severely ill with congestion and refused to go to the hospital. he was a heavy smoker who was significantly overweight and knew he faced an increased risk from covid-19. still, he refused to take a coronavirus test and potentially increase the case load on trump's watch. i'm not going to add to the numbers, he told me. he knew he could die but he didn't get tested so he wouldn't hurt trump's covid numbers. that man actually lived through that ordeal, but then tragically died months later driving home from a trump boat parade. edgar also spoke to a trump
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supporter from michigan who participated in the january 6th riot, was very clear eyed about why the folks were there. listen to this. it just looked so neat, she said. we weren't there to steal things. we weren't there to do damage. we were just there to overthrow the government. they were just there to overthrow the government, which is the obvious truth of the matter. again, the only silver lining in all of this is that it didn't work. whew. the pipe bombs didn't go off. these two guys who were going to attack the dnc in california were apprehended with their massive arsenal. the overthrow of the government didn't go off. the transition of power ended up happening. but here is the thing, and i don't think it is sufficiently appreciated in washington. there's still a bit of complacency i fare because there's a difference between process and outcomes. it is a distinction every good coach in every sport makes between process and outcomes. for instance in basketball you can take a bad shot that happens to go in and take a really good shot that you should take and
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just misses. good coaches understand that over the course of a large set of repetitive games where you are doing the same thing over and over, you need to focus on the process and not the outcomes. you have to encourage the good shots, discourage the bad ones. this story is about the process, not the outcome. the outcome could have been much worse but it wasn't, but the process that led to the insurrection, the institutions, how they function, they are still there, and we just got lucky. sam stanton has been covering the arrests in california, a reporting for ""the sacramento bee"" and he joins me now. what can you tell me about how law enforcement managed to interrupt this? >> reporter: well, this all started in january when the fbi and napa county sheriff's officials went to the home and business of ian rogers, who owns an auto repair place in napa for high-end british automobiles. and they executed a search
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warrant and discovered the 50 weapons you are talking about, the five pipe bombs, the machine guns. they had been monitoring their communications through these encrypted apps apparently and had been following them because there were indications that they had this militia movement tie. rogers apparently had a 3 percenter sticker on one of his vehicles. once they arrested him, copeland allegedly deleted all of the text messages that spelled out their supposed plans, but, of course, they were still on rogers' phone, so a lot of them are spelled out in the charging documents and they detail more than just a discussion of attacking the democratic headquarters. they talk about attacks on facebook, twitter, the governor's mansion here in sacramento, things of that nature, george soros. >> yeah, i want to read one
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exchange because the timing of it seems important to me. this is from november 25th of '20. again, this is the aftermath of the election, after the ap called it for donald trump and while donald trump is saying, you know, that it has been stolen, that there's massive fraud. rogers, okay, bro, we need to hit the enemy in the moupgt. copeland, yeah, so we punch soros. rogers, i think right now we attack democrats, their offices. copeland, we need more people, bro. copeland, going to be hard. the timing laid out in the charging document is such that it is clear that this is all in reaction to the election, the false idea it was stolen and trying to sort of avenge trump. >> yeah. the documents indicate that they thought some kind of violent actions, domestic terror as the documents refer to it, would spark a movement nationwide and that fellow trump supporters
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would, you know, join their cause if they could, you know, do something that would get enough attention. they talked about getting national network news attention on an attack in sacramento and how that would help bolster things. so that was -- you know, that was going to be the start of it from their standpoint according to the feds. >> and there's also this document that was apprehended. i have actually seen other folks sort of on the far right with this, the white privilege card which was found in ian rogers' house. it says trumps everything, the card number 45454545, sort of sardonic but gives you insight into their politics. >> yeah, yeah. >> what is the sort of process from here? i mean this is a federal charge, right? you have u.s. attorneys on this. these gentlemen, i imagine, are being held right now? >> well, rogers is being held in napa county, or he was arrested there on state and federal charges. they were both indicted july
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7th. the indictment was unsealed earlier this week. mr. copeland was arrested here in sacramento. he had moved here recently. he is described as an army deserter and steroid abuser who was living in an apartment here in sacramento when he was arrested. he was in our jail briefly and he is being taken to san francisco for a detention hearing on tuesday, at which a federal judge will decide whether or not he can be released. prosecutors are urging the judge not to allow him out, citing these alleged activities and plans. >> do we have a sense of how close this came to fruition? >> well, they had a lot of weapons apparently and they had these bombs and they had discussions about details of where that democratic headquarters building is in downtown sacramento. for instance, they allegedly noted in their conversations that it was across the street from a california highway patrol building and had discussions of
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whether they would have to do a quiet fire or some kind of explosive device that wouldn't tip off the chp. so it is hard to say, you know, whether this was just bar talk, you know. one of the lawyers described their client as a mouthy drunk when they first appeared in court in napa. so, you know, they pleaded not guilty, and we'll see what comes of it. but they certainly had, as you can see from your screen, quite a few weapons. >> all right. sam stanton, who is covering this, "the sacramento bee". thank you so much. >> thanks, chris. democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland served as lead impeachment manager for trump's second impeachment over the january 6th insurrection, also a member of the house select committee to investigate january 6th and he joins me now. i want to return to that question of process versus outcomes because i think there's a little bit of complacency because of the outcomes, and
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every time that we learn more about what happened in the run-up and on that day and vis-a-vis the u.s. military, it seems to me that you have less faith that this was a foreordained possibility and more that we kind of got lucky. where are you on that? >> well, we got very lucky with mike pence. i mean the way i see it, chris, is we had a huge demonstration organized by the president, and inside that was another ring which was a violent insurrection in which the three percenters and the proud boys and oath keepers, and inside that was the coup donald trump was trying to orchestrate targeting mike pence. all they wanted pence to do was to rebuff the electors coming in from arizona, georgia and pennsylvania, lowering biden below 270, kicking it into a contingent election. there we voted it because we vote not one member, one vote, but one state, one vote. if they had been able to do
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that, which would not have been that much if you look at the different things mike pence did over the prior four years for trump, they would have won it with 27 states to 22 for the democrats and one tied. at that point he probably would have followed the advice of michael flynn and imposed martial law and a state of siege. this would have been the reichstag moment, basically declaring, look, the democrats can't control all of the chaos and insurrection that trump unleashed against us. so the way i see it, chris, is january 6th was not the end of something, unfortunately. it was the beginning of something, and we have to get very serious about domestic violent extremism and their friends in the republican party. >> i don't want to skate what past what you just said because you have articulated precisely the alternate history that i find most awful to contemplation, and i almost don't say it out loud because i don't want to call it into being or plant the head into anyone's head, but since you said it,
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there's no -- if pence had gotten up there that day and say, i'm rejecting them, there's no recourse. they would just steal it. i mean that's the craziest thing, and i don't want to give michael pence, who has, you know, debased himself in too many ways too much credit here, but, like, that's what i'm hearing from you and that's my understanding as well, which is kind of a stomach-dropping realization to come to. >> it is an extraordinary thing. nobody has yet been able to explain why exactly vice president pence did do the right thing in up holding the constitutional order on that day, but it was the very thin thread that we were resting on and we really would have devolved into complete chaos at that point. obviously the house would have voted to object and sustained an objection about what the vice president had done, but had he gone with trump's plan he would have unilaterally asserted an
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unreviewable power just to reject those electors, and it is constitutionally absurd but there would have been enough of a pat ina of an argument they could have said it was normal and in the meantime he has unleashed the mob and these storm troopers against congress. people would have been fleeing and it would have been a complete nightmare. i think we need to follow through on precisely what you are suggesting, which is what would have happened had kevin mccarthy and donald trump and jim jordan gotten their way that day. they obviously have no respect for the real requirements of our constitutional order, and that's why, you know, you have -- whatever else you think about the politics of liz cheney and john katko and the seven republicans in the senate who voted to convict, those people have stood up as constitutional patriots and for the electoral process as we understand it. >> this to me has to be in some ways almost kind of one of the focal points of this commission
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or your work in the committee. i mean it seems weird to be like, you know, we are facing an existential threat, let's talk about the electoral count act that is a product of the 1870s. but there are some technical -- legal technical fixes that have to happen. i mean independent of the john lewis voting right act, the for the people act, just the basing blocking and tackling how the votes of the united states people are transmitted into the presidency, we had this whole system exposed as extremely wobbly. i don't hear anyone talking about how to reinforce that. am i crazy? >> no. the problem is that the electoral college is antiquated and obsolete, and there are all of these moments of weakness where there are different booby traps that can be installed by hostile actors. up until now there's been a basic agreement between the two parties to accept what the popular vote in the various
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states is. now all of a sudden you have a republican party which has a philosophy that i call rule or ruin, either we're going to rule or we're just going to ruin the whole constitutional order. well, they're saying if we don't win the popular vote, we will recount until we win the popular vote. we will put the right people in place to count the right way. and if none of that works, we will get the state legislatures to sort of overthrow the popular vote and install the electors loyal to trump or whatever trumpified successor they anoint. if none of that works, then they will do it in congress by using, again, whatever weakness they can perceive in the electoral college structure. look, i have been an opponent of the electoral college for a long time. the very first bill i introduced as a state senator in maryland was the national popular vote interstate compact. we picked up tremendous momentum there. unfortunately, the republicans are blocking that, too. >> right. >> in the states, but we are more than halfway there, but we have to precisely have that conversation. i am with you.
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to a certain extent you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to conjure it into being, but on the other hand it is too dangerous not to talk about it. we have to bring this to light. i do think of that as part of my role on the select committee. i want us to talk about the ways in which the electoral college invited that kind of aggression against america on that day. >> congressman jamie raskin, we will keep watching as that develops. appreciate it. >> my pleasure. it made big headlines yesterday. we reported on this program when joe manchin, one of the key holdouts on federal voting protections, or at least ending the filibuster to pass them, met with texas democrats who fled the state to stop a voter restriction law. lots of cameras, lots of questions. could the upstart lawmakers risking their careers for the cause of voting rights convince joe manchin something must be done? one day later there were fewer cameras when manchin made his own voyage to texas for a
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fundraiser hosted by several republican donors. that story is next. ♪ ♪ experience, hyper performance that takes you further. at the lexus golden opportunity sales event. get 0.9% apr financing on the all 2021 lexus hybrid models. experience amazing. ♪ fixodent ultra dual power get 0.9% apr financing on the all 2021 lexus hybrid models. provides you with an unbeatable hold and strong seal against food infiltrations. fixodent. and forget it.
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♪ watch the olympic games on xfinity ♪ ♪ root for team usa and feel the energy ♪ ♪ 7000 plus hours of the olympics on display ♪ ♪ with xfinity you get every hour of every day ♪ ♪ different sports on different screens ♪ ♪ you can watch it anywhere ♪ ♪ and with the voice remote ♪ ♪ you never have to leave your chair ♪ show me team usa. ♪ all of this innovation could lead to some inspiration ♪ ♪ and you might be the next one to represent our nation ♪ ♪ this summer on your tv, tablet, or any screen ♪ ♪ xfinity is here to inspire your biggest dreams ♪ one day after senator joe manchin met with the texas democrats who fled their state to block the voter suppression bill in texas being proposed by republicans, the ones who are begging congress to act, we have some action. joe manchin apparently headed to texas, not for the whole voting rights thing. instead the texas tribune reported that senator joe manchin, key holdout on federal
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protections or at least ending the filibuster to get them, is coming to texas for a fundraiser hosted by several gop donors. joining me now the former mayor, julian castro. obviously politicians go to odd places to raise money, but there's something ironic about this. what is your reaction? >> this is one of those things that you just shake your head. i mean why in the world is joe manchin coming to texas when he has texas democrats up there in d.c. begging him, asking him to put more effort into finding a solution, whether it is on the filibuster or some sort of voting rights legislation and he's the hold-out right now preventing the protection of voting rights, especially for communities of color. if you are going to come to texas, i wish you were coming to texas to listen to so many people who either have been or will be impacted by these types of voter suppression bills that
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republicans are putting through because there are so many stories to hear. instead of that, he is going to be at a high-priced fundraiser by a bunch of oil and gas executives. it is a terrible look for joe manchin. i think it sends the wrong signal, not only to those texas democrats who are fighting hard for federal legislation and to stop the texas legislation, it sends the wrong message about what democrats should be about. >> yeah, we should note you just said something also important here i think substantively. right now we have the huge reconciliation package, the big infrastructure bill. there's a question about how aggressive it will be in the climate aspects, and here you have what would be the 50th vote for this. as "the texas tribune" reports, the host committee includes titans of the texas oil and gas industry. some of these donors made occasional contributions to democrats who are either moderate or serve on committees with oversight of the energy sector. gives you a little window into
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what the sort of climate hawk forces are up against. >> oh, it does. i mean manchin is there, chairing the energy and natural resources committee in the senate. the letter that went out, the fundraising letter said that joe manchin has been a good friend of the industry since he was governor of west virginia, and i'm sure it is going to get a lot of buy in from oil and gas executives. the way that this ties into the voting rights part of it is i bet what they're telling joe manchin at this high-priced fund-raiser is, hey, look, senator, you really are the reasonable guy here in the senate, you're the only thing holding back the world from aoc and the socialists and x, y and z. >> right. >> they're going to butter him up and make him think, hey, you got to hold the line. politicians tend to overlisten to people giving them thousands and thousands of dollars, we all know that. we have seen it many times. this couldn't come as a worse time for those who care about
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having substantive legislation that addresses climate change or legislation that protects voting rights. >> it also sort of points to the difficulty that the democrats have, right? because the senate is in the current geographic demographic configuration of the democratic coalition. the senate tilts towards republicans. joe manchin is a bit of a unicorn in that he is able to get reelected in a state donald trump won by 30 points. there's no way around being dependent on senators representing states whose median voter is well to the right of the center of the democratic caucus. >> no, that's true. look, i mean you also have to give joe manchin the credit that he deserves on a lot of votes that have -- that take place day in and day out where he does side with democrats, and would we rather have joe manchin there than a republican who is going to be voting with all of the republicans? of course. at the same time the danger, especially when it comes to tish of voting rights, is if you
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allow this point shaving out there in state after state including my home state of texas, then the joe manchins are not going to be there anymore. not only that, you are going to lose places like georgia and arizona that were hard, hard fought and barely won. >> final question for you on some late-breaking news today. a federal district judge in your state of texas, appointee of george w. bush, has essentially ruled that the daca protections issued by the obama administration, all the way back i believe in 2012, are essentially unlawful. he has not suspended daca per se, but he has issued, i understand, an injunction for any further applications. this is for people who are brought to the united states as children, as minors, who can apply for sort of protected status. it is not full citizenship, but it does give them a sort of path to citizenship. i have to imagine it is brutal for all of the folks subject to this because it just creates more tension, pressure and uncertainty.
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your reaction to that ruling? >> it is a gut punch. it just creates that uncertainty, that feeling in the stomach for so many families who have somebody on daca. as you said, it doesn't affect people currently on daca but it does put a pause on new applications being approved. just to give you a sense, chris, since january 50,000 people have applied for daca. >> wow. >> it is not a small number. on top of that, you know, the biden administration is entering very deep and treacherous political waters on immigration. this is a president that came in saying, we're not going to make the mistake of the past, of 2009. we're actually going to get something done on immigration. so far mostly what he has done has been not donald trump. when it comes to something like relatively low-hanging fruit, even daca, there's not a permanent solution. they need to change that and this is a powerful reminder of that. >> we should note that some
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pathway to citizenship is currently included in the big reconciliation package. we will see if that continues. it was striking to me it was in there. that's something for you to keep your eyes on. julian castro, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. ahead, really stark language from the president calling out the vaccine lies and misinformation spreading on social media, and pulitzer prize winner ed young reports on what may be the worst outbreak in the entire country next. in the entire country next. with subaru, you get kelley blue book's most trusted brand winner, seven years in a row. in fact, subaru has won most trusted brand for more consecutive years than any other brand. no wonder kelley blue book also picked subaru as their best overall brand. once again. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru. i order my groceries online now. shingles doesn't care. i keep my social distance.
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right wing media outlets like fox news have been pushing an anti-vaccine for months now. they keep pushing for experimental remedies for the virus. >> we know that we have therapeutics such as inhaled steroids, simple over-the-counter medicine like vitamin 3d and zinc that boost our immune systems. we know that our fda has in many ways failed us by not allowing
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for the use of ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, both of which are used around the world to reduce hospitalizations and deaths. >> to be clear, there's zero clinical evidence that hydroxychloroquine has any benefit whatsoever. but i want to highlight one of the other drugs that she highlighted called ivermectin. she has had guests come on and promote the drug as an effective treatment against covid, even though the fda has warned against its use. if you are promoting a treatment, you have to be careful. at least i feel like i do with my responsibility in this job. yesterday a study supporting eye ver ivermectin was withdrawn. "the guardian" reported that the entire section of the paper appeared to be plagiarized. of the vast ocean of dodgey
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information, there is a lot and it is part of the problem we've been living with for months, over a year. yesterday the white house singled out facebook for not doing enough to stop the spread of lies and covid and vaccines. today president biden took it a step further. >> reporter: on covid misinformation, what's your message to platforms like facebook? >> they're killing people. i mean they're really -- look, the only pandemic we have is among the unvaccinated, and that -- and they're killing people. >> facebook responded with a statement saying, quote, we will not be distracted by accusations which aren't supported by the facts. the fact is that more than 2 billion people have viewed authoritative information about covid-19 and vaccines on facebook, which is more than any other place on the internet. more than 3.3 million americans have used our vaccine finder tool to find out where and how to get a vaccine. the facts show facebook is helping save lives, period. 3.3 million americans out of hundreds of millions of shots is maybe not great. it is also not clear exactly how
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many people saw the covid lies on facebook. it is a big platform. they're seeing a lot of stuff. but the company has removed thor than 18 million misleading posts from facebook and instagram since the start of the pandemic. when it comes to dangers of not getting a vaccine, well, president biden is absolutely indisputably correct on that, that right now the only pandemic we have is among the unvaccinated. in a new piece in "the atlantic" about the recent surge of covid cases in missouri, ed young writes, almost every covid-19 patient in springfield's hospitals is unvaccinated, and the dozen or so exceptions are all either elderly or among immuno compromised people. the vaccines are working as intended, but the number of people who have refused to get their shots is crushing morale. he joins me now. ed, this piece was -- it was tough reading but important. tell us a little bit about where this area is and what you heard from the health care workers who are working there. >> springfield is a city in the
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southwestern missouri. it is currently the epicenter of the state's massive covid outbreak. one of the major hospitals there has acquired as many patients in the last five weeks as it did in five months last year, a testament to how quickly the delta variant can spread among non-vaccinated people. the vast majority of people who are coming -- fallen sick with covid in springfield are unvaccinated, and unlike last year a lot of them are younger. they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and people who these doctors and nurses are seeing in their 30s this year in their icus seem to be much sicker than that same age group last year. >> we should note that it is a little unclear right now in terms of our understanding the evidence of delta, we know quite certainly it is more transmissible. it is unclear whether it gets people sicker, but what you are reporting indicates just from the sort of anecdotal experience of the people working in this
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hospital is they feel like that's what they're seeing, is that a correct characterization? >> yes, there's definitely controversy around whether delta is deadlier. all i have heard consistently from doctors and nurses is that people seem to be not only younger but also sicker this year, and there might be various reasons for that. but the ultimate result is that health care workers are struggling. they're really exhausted. they're overwhelmed again, and they're just indignant at a time when we have vaccines, plural, that are incredibly effective they're having to go through all of this again. they're having to work ridiculous shifts. they're having to, you know, zip up many body bags a day. they're losing patients and they shouldn't be. they're outraged and just sad and frustrated that this is where we -- we are. it shouldn't be that way, you know, one and a half years on.
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>> you report one nurse being spat at by a patient when she communicated that he was covid positive. there's a lot of skepticism among folks coming in that the thing is real or that they actually have it. >> yeah. a lot of people seem to be resistant to the reality of a pandemic and the usefulness of the vaccines, even to the quite literally bitter end. a lot of others change their minds. people suddenly realize that the mistakes they've made or the misinformation they've listened to, but often it is too late. like if you all get at the point where you are sick enough to warrant hospitalization, to enter an icu, there's not a lot doctors can do. they can provide basic medical care, but the treatments available, contrary to what fox news might say, are just not very good. so the best chance of surviving is not even to get infected in the first place, and the best way of doing that at the moment
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is to get vaccinated. but in springfield, in that county, only 40% of people have been vaccinated and in some of the surrounding counties it is in the teens. this is what happens when you have a largely unvaccinated population that has delta ripping through it. you are going to overwhelm hospitals and you are going to wear out the health care workers who were so lauded as heroes last year. they're burning out now. >> the only small hope i have in all of this is that we saw in a previous iteration of the outbreak, even places that were resistant to sort of masking or social distancing last summer, when the numbers start to go up people change their behavior. they stop being -- start being less mobile. it was said that states with the highest case rates are seeing vaccination rates go up. in fact, the five states with the highest case rates, arkansas, florida, missouri,
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nevada, missouri, had a higher rate of getting vaccinated. one wonders and hopes that it will change behavior. >> indeed. some of the public health workers who i spoke to in springfield, who by the way are doing an admiral job with very few resources and not enough staff, a little optimistic, cautiously so that they've seen signs of change. they talk to the communities and go through churches and so on, those attempts are bearing fruit. but building trust with people is slow and delta is really fast. >> that's the problem. ed yong as always, great reporting and thanks for sharing with us this evening. >> thanks, chris. remember when donald trump used to get on stage at cam pay rallies and complain he couldn't flush his toilet? well, he turned his own personal bathroom issues into real government policy that was truly terrible for the environment. i will tell you how it is being undone next. g undone next.
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donald trump was so obsessed with his hair he was willing to destroy the planet for it. last december basically in the final moments of his presidency, trump managed to get rid of regulations for shower heads and washing machines, allowing them to basically use unlimited amounts of water. his focus wasn't on protecting the country from a once-in-a-century pandemic killing thousands of americans today. the man was obsessed with low-flow toilets which didn't work for him on the first flush. his focus was on deregulating common household appliances in order to get healthier, shinier hair. >> so shower heads, you take a shower, the water doesn't come out. you want to wash your hands, the water doesn't come out. what do you do? you just stand there longer, you take a shower longer, because my hair -- i don't know about you, but it has to be perfect. >> we would play you the toilet bit but there was like 100 different examples and we would be here all night. that guy was our president, a man we got rid of, and he got
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rid of regulations that had been in place since the 1990s that practically no one was asking to change. so today seven months later the biden administration is getting rid of trump's rule that would have allowed showers to rain down up to ten gallons of water every minute, something so blatantly climate blind consumer and conservation groups called it silly, unnecessary and wasteful, especially as the west bakes through a historic two-decade-long mega drought. the drought is so bad that reservoirs are drying up. lake meade near las vegas is at the lowest level since it was filled after the construction of the hoover dam in the '30s. to get an idea what the water level looks like up close, this is an image from "the las vegas times" of the bathtub ring on the rocks around lake meade. right now it is at 35% of its total capacity. it is a lifeline of tens of millions of americans. we keep seeing images like this and others that show the climate emergency facing this country and the rest of the planet.
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the other day, "new york times" columnist and guest on this program, ezra klein, wrote a column and said this, it seems odd that we would just let the world burn. it seems odd every day and yet it feels like that's kind of what we're doing. that column comes the same week that we got this headline out of the amazon, amazon rainforest now emitting more carbon dioxide than it absorbs. it's reached a tipping point thanks to deforestation and burning. we're getting more carbon dioxide released in the atmosphere than what that massive sink is taking up. that comes the same week that we're seeing extreme weather
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across the globe both here in the northwest and in germany and belgium where there has been absolutely astounding record flooding. there are a death toll of 150 with hundreds and hundreds more missing. adam mckay the filmmaker is passionate about climate change. he tweeted this which represented the way that i feel about this. saying this on twitter is like yelling a bucket. we need a carbon capture product immediately and we need to switch over to solar and hydro now. where is the research? >> and joining me now, fellow in the office of science and technology and the author of the uninhabitable earth, editor at large of new york magazin.
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hannah, let me start with you, i should note, there's some really great promising climate policy happening right now in washington in the reconciliation deal. we talked about the clean electricity standard last night. but there also seems a mismatch between the degree to which the wolf is at the door and the time line for what we're planning to do about it. and i wonder as someone who is an expert on this, you feel the same way? >> yes. but i think we can't focus on that mismatch because that's what's caused the paralysis that we've seen on climate action for the past decade and that paralysis keeps going. they say that the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. and certainly the best time to take climate action would have been several decades ago. but the second best time is now. to be honest, we can start with planting trees. >> yeah, that's a great point. i completely agree with that. we did this yesterday on the
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clean electricity standard because i want people to understand it is a solvable problem. we can do something here. but the way that i think it effects the way i'm thinking about it, david, is in these -- in a few areas, one is mitigation, which we're just going to have to start doing a lot of investing in, making sure places have enough water, for instance, in the american west and places along the coast and figuring out how that's going to work and also what adam said there and i feel like there hasn't been enough focus on, we're going to have so suck some carbon out of the air. and i don't know where that is right now. where is it? >> the technology exists to do it with machines. it's pretty expensive. it's a lot more expensive to -- it's cheaper to avoid putting carbon in the atmosphere than to take it out once it's up there. many natural solutions like tree planting and other forms of natural carbon capture or carbon
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removal are much cheaper. but i think ultimately looking there as a solution to our large carbon problem is a bit of a mistake. we need it. especially to deal with parts of the carbon economy that are going to be hard to get all the way to zero emissions. but a big study that came out a year ago suggested that just to deal with the hardest to decarbonize sectors, the heaviest industries, the airline fuels, if we wanted to do that through natural solutions, we would have to plant trees two to three times the size of texas and if we wanted to do it using machines, we would have to use half of today's global electricity to power those machines. it's a hugely important part of the puzzle and we should be investing in it and making it cheaper. but we can't let that be a reason to move any more slowly on the decarbonization of the power sector which we know how
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to do right now. >> that's a great point. i saw some interesting stuff about carbon-free cement start-ups. there's some interesting, promising tech there. david talked about the grid. that's where in some ways the most promising stuff is happening. we really do have the tech there. but there is this storage problem and i want to ask you about this. this is a m.i.t. article, when you get a lot of solar on the grid, it drives down prices, it could become difficult to convince developers to continue building more solar plants if they stand to make less money or lose it. this should be a problem we can solve if it's just a money issue. >> it's a problem that we can solve. this is where the paralysis comes as we focus so much on -- we can never get carbon neutral, carbon negative because you
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can't do it right now. but humans can do amazing things when they're pressed and i -- having lived through the pandemic and seen how quickly we can develop vaccines when the motivation is there, i'm confident that we can develop large capacity storage, enough that we need if the motivation is there. also, we don't have to think about just big stationary batteries. that's not the only way to do it. one thing that a lot of cities and communities are working on right now is how do you integrate the grid with storage in electric vehicles, electric vehicles, obviously, they run on batteries. tesla's batteries that they use for solar panels is the same battery that they put in cars. you can be driving your car, you can have the battery that is part way depleted, there's excess storage, you can take power back and when there's peak demand, plug your car in and get paid for it. >> the final point, david, is just that tech is -- a lot of
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the tech is there and the problem is money. it seems like we should be able to just solve that with -- by spending the money we need. >> i think one of the lessons of the events of the last week is we do need to be spending more money on adaptation as well, people in the climate community have focused on the carbonization which is critical. but we're sort of already unable to live in the world we have today and things are only going to get worse over the next couple of decades. thank you so much for your time tonight. the "rachel maddow show" show starts now with ali velshi. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. rachel has a much-deserved night off but she will be back on monday. and this woman says she's a doctor who is invite today the speak to the ohio legislature by a republican lawmaker about the efficacy of the covid vaccine. she was billed as a witness, the expert kind, expert witness to help inform the legislature's decision about whether to

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