tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 16, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT
>> we don't swear an oath of allegiance to an individual, a king, a queen or anything else. >> the evidence in plain sight at the united states military was preparing to prevent a trump coup. tonight explosive new reporting on pentagon measure to protect democracy, and congressman adam schiff on what it means for the committee investigating the capitol riot. then, democrats in congress arrested during a march for voting rights. tonight, former attorney general eric holder on where that fight set stands. and mike exclusive interview with vivek murthy on the white house offensive against vaccine misinformation. >> it poses a threat to our nation's health. >> when all in starts right now. now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. it was all hiding in plain sight, the concern about what donald trump would do if he
lost the election was there for all of us to see. we all saw it, we saw it from this position, talking to you every night unfold in realtime. but i'll admit, even as someone who's covered it, day by day felt the danger, worried about where democracy was headed, was up late at night worrying about it, culminating in the january 6th insurrection, even eyes someone very tuned into the news did not quite put all the pieces together at the time. the latest reporting we are getting is a good occasion to revisit it all, look at it in hindsight, now you've probably seen the news from the new book by two great washington post reporter carol leoning and phil rucker, they report that as trump ceaselessly pushed false claims about the 2020 presidential election, general marked a milley chairman of the joint chiefs of staff grew more nervous, telling aides he feared the president and his acolytes might attempt to use the military to stay in office. milley described a stomach churning feeling as he listen to trump's untrue complains
about election fraud. drawing a comparison to the 1933 attack on germany's parliament building that hitler used as a pretext to establish a nazi dictatorship. this is a reichstag moment he told aides according to the book, the gospel of the fewer. despite this awful era we went through this terrible person as a commander of chief surrounded by terrible people, all of them are attempting to launder their reputations. you look at these stories, there've been thousands of them about the trump white house through that lens trying to figure out who is trying to get over on who, who's trying to spin who, what to believe? when you take those quotes by these two very good reporters and then think back to the actual public evidence, the picture is even more unnerving than it was before. let's start even before the election. donald trump spent the summer whipping up fears about
election integrity seeing mail-in ballots were fraudulent. then called the whole election rigged at the first debate at the end of september. >> everybody has to ballots, this is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. a rigged election. it means you have a fraudulent election. you are sending 80 million ballots. these people aren't equipped to handle it, number one. number two, they cheat. >> on october 11th a few weeks before the election, general milley, chair of the joint chief of staff's, gave an interview with npr when he said the military doesn't swear an oath of allegiance to any individual. and then he said this. >> i think that we have a very, very long tradition of an apolitical military. that's embedded, really, from the days of george washington. shortly afterwards when he gave his famous new bergh address, and they were encouraging george washington to seize power or become a king of some
kind, and he gave a famous speech. and we want to ensure that there is always civilian leadership, civilian control of the military. and we will obey the lawful orders of civilian control of the military, long-standing can tradition. and we adhere to the rule of law. >> i don't remember that interview. i don't know if i noted it at the time. the reason i think it didn't make a splash, or i don't think of it as historic is that his remarks, they didn't get coverage. what he's saying is so obvious, where the military, we're not gonna take over the government, while in which respect it is notable that the highest ranking military officer, the one who made the mistake of walking with trump to that infamous photo wipe, for that man a top 0.3 weeks before the election felt like he had to just say in a national media outlet before the country, but the military is going to obey lawful orders. lawful orders, the rule of law.
now think of that, remember on november 9th two days after the associated press called the election for biden, there was a senior republican official, anonymously, who told the washington post quote, what is the downside for humor-ing him for this little bit of time? no one seriously thinks the result will change. he went golfing this weekend. it's not like he's plotting how to prevent joe biden from taking power on january 20th. that's in the hall of fame of wrong takes, just last year. even those of us who are scared for democracy were warning that this is an incredibly dangerous, we're watching trump put pressure on the legal and election system. he invited state legislators to work them over, and he was making phone calls behind the scenes to state elected officials. and the very same day the
republican officials asked what is the downside for humoring trump? trump also fired his secretary of defense mark esper, who broke with the president on deploying troops against protesters over the summer when trump reportedly told his team he wanted the military to quote, beat the f-out of civil rights protesters and just shoot them, about american citizens. he wanted the military to massacre the protesters, and then he got rid of the guy who didn't want to do that, wouldn't do it and then he started replacing the top leadership of the department of defense with trump loyalists, people who had no business doing the job they were doing. former white house staffer an aide to congress devin nunes, one who crafted a memo to discredit the origins of the investigation into trump's team contact with russia. one guy would not confirmed the same role he took over.
and he called president obama a terrorist leader. that guy long with his other acolytes, and another guy who helped him invent a scandal of the masking of trump officials. so one acolyte, and one acolyte that the senate wouldn't confirm, all at the same time to take over the department of defense in the waiting days of the trump presidency. it all looked incredibly sketch at the time. you might remember the cover story was that they were all over there to get the u.s. out of that ghana stand. because they were so intent on that. the former military command of of nato said that the department of defense had been decapitated. in their new book, rocker and leoning say, esper expected that he would fire him after the election but hoping to hold on if he could after the election, he was worried about with trump might try to do with the military if he were knocked
out. then on january 3rd, three days before the attack on the capitol, you have all ten living former secretary of defense, issued a stark public warning that involving the military in election dispute would cross into dangers territories. at the time, i remember thinking, good for them i guess, it felt random without knowing the full picture. but again, these are people who are connected to the pentagon. the former secretaries of defense. these are people who have channels to current and active officials, this is three days before january six when some of the worst fears did come true. in fact, when you think about it now and you look at all of this timeline and the fears of milley, the way i think to understand january six is that trump tried to use the mob to do what he ended up realizing he couldn't get the military to do. whatever efforts he made or didn't make, trump ended up using that mob as his weapon to stay in power when he found no
takers in the actual institution u.s. military that has to protect and defend the u.s. constitution. that is what that looked like. he was going to use anybody to help him steal power and it when it wasn't a uniform members of the u.s. military he went to this, the next best thing, trump supporters willing fuss, pulls, hockey sticks, bear spray, beating, concuss-ing, dragging police officers to get into the capital. but again the tread of trump abusing the military didn't end that day, nancy pelosi said she talked to merely -- from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch close and ordering a nuclear strike. a few days after that, million the rest of the joint chiefs released a memo warning troops against sedition and insurrection but for joe biden's inauguration.
it has become clear that the worst fears of the most apocalyptic lee inclined trump clipped critics were actually being shared by the people who are running the largest military in the world. donald trump was impeached for his actions leading up to january six, there's not a house elect committee is signed to figure out what happened that day, and based on the reporting there's a witness that i would want to call. democratic congressman adam schiff from california as a member of this new committee. he's the chair of the house intelligence committee as well and he joins me now. congressman, first just your reaction to both what we've learned specifically but then the timeline about the role of the military did or did not play and how trump, perhaps, wanted to use it? >> well, i have to say, can any of us really question if donald
trump could use the military to remain in power that he would've done so. i think invariably he would've chosen to do that if it would've helped him retain power. it's shocking to see these things come to light now. i do wish others including general milley had been more outspoken at the time about their fears and had been more forthcoming with the american people about the dangers that we faced to our democracy. but we need to know a lot more about those weeks leading up to january six, what's took place on that day in the aftermath. whether this insurrection was an attempt to cling to power by other means and the issues of that january six with the least amount of information, that involving the white house is the biggest black box, what was
going on in the white house in the days leading up to it on the day and in the aftermath. what efforts were made to send reliefs, rose withhold relief, was this part of a broader effort to overturn the election. those are some of the unanswered questions. >> i wonder if we can put up the graphic again. at the time it really seemed bizarre. esper's, esper is fired all of these folks are sent over christopher miller, why -- they were staffers for david nunes that you are on him with, and he who is unable to get confirmed. do you think that we have the story of what they were up to over there? the cover story of the things he said publicly was, donald trump is so intent on getting us out of afghanistan and is
being resisted by the brass that he has to get his people in so that in the last two or three weeks they can be laser focused on getting out of afghanistan, but do you understand with the redoing their? >> certainly i don't have the full picture they were doing their. this is part of the broader tale of the trump administration which is he brought in one group at the beginning, he turned through them, eight them up and spit them out, when people wouldn't do the next unethical thing that he would ask them to, he would throw them out or they would be forced to leave. he would go from one team, to another worst team, until he had nothing else but the people who are willing to do anything he wanted. it might be accelerating withdrawal from afghanistan, but also deploying military when people refused to settle
the protesters. his only qualification is that they were yes meant to donald trump and would do whatever he asked no matter how and icicle it would be. >> it's general milley the kind of person that you can imagine being called before the committee? >> it's certainly possible. we haven't made any decisions yet. we will hear from some of the frontline capitol police officers. but we intend to follow the evidence wherever it leads. if he has relevant testimony about the national guard and why took so long to deploy, if he has relevant testimony about instructions he may have received from the white house to deploy military troops in a way that is relevant to the events of january six then that is certainly possible. but we're gonna differ those decisions until we have a complete cabinet.
>> final question, you don't have a full committee yet because the minority leader kevin mccarthy has not named anyone, he's having lunch with former president trump today. are you expecting that he will name any members? >> i don't know he will do whatever donald trump wants him to do and that his his sole reason to do it is to serve the former president. and i think it explains why he opposes the commission to begin with. and whether he will put people on who are staunch defenders of the president, or he will put people on that will be disruptive or he won't appoint people at all my guess is that donald trump will be calling the shots. congressman adam schiff sits on the house to investigate both the run up to end the day of january 6th, thank you congressman. >> thank you. >> next as texas democrats meet with john senator joe manchin
on the dire need for action on voter rights, my interview with eric holder to protect the vote next election. he joins me next. he joins me next visibly diminish wrinkled skin in... crepe corrector lotion... only from gold bond. hey, i just got a text from my sister. you remember rick, her neighbor? sure, he's the 76-year-old guy who still runs marathons, right? sadly, not anymore. wow. so sudden. um, we're not about to have the "we need life insurance" conversation again, are we? no, we're having the "we're getting coverage
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his protection of the filibuster is preventing the passage of federal voting rights protections. apparently, the filibuster never came up. >> there shouldn't be a democrat or a republican that wouldn't or couldn't or shouldn't vote something that truly just only deals with voting and the rights of voters. >> did you have a discussion there about the filibuster? >> no there is no thing about the filibuster, forget the filibuster. >> but sir whatever the republicans will supported, which is what they have indicated they're not doing. >> you know why because they have a bill that's 100 pages long. let's get back to the basic rights of voting, for protecting voting rights. >> senator manchin is, i think, either unwilling or to accept -- comprehensive reinforcement of american democracy this. needed he thinks that there's too much in the bill, he wants to get back to basics. but anything that would actually ensure democracy, even on the basic sense, is not going to get ten republican voters because the republican
party at large is counting on a whole bunch of anti democratic means to secure power. do you know how we know that? because they told us themselves. >> the good news is we are going to get the house back, we are gonna get the house back. that is a done deal. we have everything working in our favor right now. we have re-district -- republicans can struggle most of that process. that alone to get us a majority back. >> republicans control the process! and it's a done deal which it will give us majority back. who cares what voters want? that's the problem. republicans are ready to secure the problem -- power by gerrymandering. so you can choose to fight for democracy or choose to work with republicans but i don't see how you can choose both? eric holder is with the chair of the week committee to and gerrymandering and voter suppression.
he joins me now. i want to start asking you about that quote by ryan jackson because he really -- i think it's a widely shared view of republicans. they're very confident they're gonna take the house. and it's not because the political wins in their favor, they think they can call enough seats just to really -- estates the control. should be okay with that and i wish the means the party takes power? >> obviously we should not be okay with that, that's something that we have been fighting in the drc back in january 10th 2017. he is correct that that's what the republicans did the last time. in 2011, he put in place gerrymanders who that had lasted in the course in this decade. it's a gerrymandering that has led to republicans in that first cycle after the 2012 elections. republicans got 1.2 middle million fewer votes and then
democrats did, and yet got 33 more seats. we look at wisconsin, where democrats got 54% of the vote, both for congress and state legislature, and ended up with a third of the seats. so the possibility of a gerrymandering to achieve the results that we saw in 2011 is there. it's something that needs to be met. it has not gotten sufficient media tension it has not gotten sufficient attention to the country. we're focusing on voting rights, i get that, it's extremely important. but you can have everybody fight their way through all of their obstructions that republicans are gonna put in place and run into a wall of gerrymandering that will basically negate the participation of huge numbers of people. and not only people of color, we have to get away from this notion that somehow this is a black fight, or this is a fight for people of color. this is an american issue. this is about the kind of
democracy that we want to have. this is about keeping our system consistent with our founding ideals. this is something everyone ought to be focused on, everyone has to learn about. and that's what i focused on fighting against partisan and racial gerrymandering in post government life. >> and i want to focus on that for a second because there is this important aspect of this. when joe manchin says, look there's 800-page bill, and it's true. there is a lot of campaign finance stuff, there's voting access, but independent commissions, non partisan gerrymandering is a big part of that bill. and it just seems to me that there are two things to note about. that one, it would be nonpartisan even in the sense of, there are states that democrats control where they can probably put the screws to republicans and they would have independent commissions to. it genuinely is the proposal in
that bill, a legitimate neutral means of handling this problem. >> and it's in fact the thing that i think distinguishes us, and the drc who oppose us. we support 100% the implementation of non, independent redistricting commissions. in fact, we have fought to have them put in place in michigan, and colorado, and utah. then -- republicans never say that they are in favor of that. they understand that they've got to keep their thumb on the scale. they need to have an ability to impact the redistricting process in an unfair way if they are going to hold on to the power that they got illegitimately in 2011. independent commissions are, i think, the best way to go about the redistricting process and that is a core part of for the people act. >> what do you think about, do you have advice to state legislatures controlled by democrats? because it does seem to me, and
i've looked at people play with maps with places like new mexico where trifecta democratic governments can try to do what republicans have done in wisconsin. which is basically, put the screws to your opponents, use the power you have to pad your margins as much as possible because until something like the independent commission happens, it's not going to get any better. what do you think about that, what would be your advice be to those folks? >> i think we have to fight for fairness, we don't have to do what republicans did in 2011 and what they continue to say they're going to do in 2021. but where fundamentally different place in 2021 than we were in 2011. with all due respect to congressman jackson, republicans don't control the process to the extent that they did in 2011. there is in fact a redistricting commission in michigan. there is one in colorado. there are reforms in ohio. there is a legal precedent
north carolina. there are things that we have done over the course of these last four years to make the situation fundamentally better than it was in 2011. so we need that to revert to lowering ourselves to do the kinds of things that republicans. do if the system is fair, democrats, progressives will do just fine. while the people will be respected. i think that should be the guiding post. >> the reason that we're having this by partly because the supreme court has signed off on gerrymandering is not in violation of any constitutional principle, one person, one vote, one of cases. recently, that's in court, of course, by six three margin, basically upheld some provisions in arizona that many thought ran afoul of section two of the voting rights act. what is your reaction to that and what do you think of where things stand in the broader spectrum of democracy
protections underneath this court? >> i think we need to be very worried about this court. they have demonstrated an ideological dissipate for protecting the right to vote. we cite in the shelby cheney case in 2013, we side in the case that just came down the brnovich case just a week ago. it essentially said, we got the voting rights act in 2013, they're now saying, in the case that -- they're most giving the lower courts a guidepost for ways in which you can sanction that which will republican legislators are doing. the -- not only for the results of particular things that they upheld in arizona, those to provisions, but the language that is in the majority opinion is truly frightening. and i am really concerned about what we see coming and our supreme court. it's one of the reasons why democrats, progressives, people who care about this country have to focus on state and
local elections. these gerrymandering that just lakers are the ones producing these laws at the supreme court. it is appalling. not only in regards to elections, in regards to reproductive rights, a whole range of other things. so we need to be focused on state and local elections. we need to be involved in making sure that we use the state courts whenever we can as opposed to the federal ones. i don't think that when it comes to election reform that we're gonna find a friend, or friends, in our united states supreme court. they are ideologically against voter protection. >> former attorney general eric holder, thank you so much for joining us tonight, i really appreciated. >> thanks for having me. >> still to come, it's clear that stopping the spread of vaccine misinformation is a matter of life or death. ahead, my exclusive interview with surgeon general vivek murphy, and how seriously the white house is taking it. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.
>> today, i issued a advisory on the dangers of health misinformation. surgeon general advisories are reserved over threat, those threats are usually over live in a world where misinformation poses an insidious threat to our nation's health. >> biden administration is going to battle against covid misinformation which is partly responsible for this huge pool of vaccine hesitant people we have here in the u.s.. according to recent data from the cdc more than 99%, more than 99% have died from covid in the last six months were unvaccinated. which basically tells us as we keep seeing every night that nearly every virus related death is now preventable, and yet millions of americans are choosing not to get a vaccine. and that is -- as it was pointed out in a new
york times piece, the reason for refusing the vaccine differ from community and demographic. among some caribbean immigrants, skepticism about the vaccine that's fermented around concerns that it will endanger fertility. that was entirely not true, at all. completely false. but it just shows that there are so many different places that different people get their information. so, even when you have the white house the largest bully pulpit in the entire world advocating vaccines, warning people of the dangers of covid, in some ways there's no match for this year wide ferocity of misinformation that is out there. that is part of the reason why the white house for instance, enlisted the help of olivia rodrigo last night, she has the best selling album in america right now, which really does slap. you have to wage this battle on different fronts.
now you have the surgeon general of the united states, vivek murthy, taking extraordinary steps on taking -- especially howard proliferates online. >> while it often appears innocuous on social media apps and retail apps, the truth is that misinformation takes away our freedom to make informed decisions about our health and the health of our loved ones. during the covid-19 pandemic, health misinformation has led people to resist wearing masks and high risk settings. it's led them to turn down proven treatments and to choose not to get vaccinated. this has led to avoidable is nurses and death simply put, health information has caused a life. >> how did he reach this unprecedented decision to put an advisory on be online lies? i will ask him next. i will ask him next. simply shake and spray to unlock the breakthrough power
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seeing now from covid-19 could've been preventable. i say that as someone who has lost ten family members to covid-19, and who witches each and every day, that they had had the opportunity to get vaccinated. i say that also as a concerned father of two young children who aren't yet eligible for the vaccine. but i know that our kids are depending on all of us to get vaccinated to shield them from this virus. every week, i talk to doctors and nurses across our country who are burning out as they care for more and more patients with covid-19 who never got vaccinated, all too often because they were misled by misinformation. >> surgeon general vivek murthy sharing his personal experience today as he issued a warning on the dangers of misinformation around covid calling it the quote, urgent threat that continues to risk lives and drag out this pandemic. and doctor vivek murthy, the u.s. surgeon general joins me now.
doctor, you spoken very personal terms, i would imagine someone like yourself, and all of us have this experience where you yourself have an extended network, family members, friends, that maybe come to you with questions about the vaccine or misconceptions about it, have you had that experience personally as well? >> well, chris, absolutely. all of us have likely been touched by misinformation in some way whether we know it or not. i do have had family members who have received videos or messages on whatsapp or facebook or another platforms and they have questions about whether the information is accurate or not. i'm glad when they ask me. what i worry about is people who see information and assume it's true, when at times it is not. if that leads them to make decisions that are bad for their health and they lose out on their loved ones, that is what we are fighting against, chris. health misinformation is costing us lives, it's hurting us -- this is not a new problem but it has gotten worse, aided and
abetted by technology platforms. >> i want to relay something that the chief of staff said, he said mark zuckerberg, i told mark zuckerberg directly that when we gather groups of people who are unvaccinated, they tell us things that aren't true, when we tell them where they heard that the most common answer is facebook. do you guys love your arms around, in any empirical sense, where people are getting this information? >> we've looked at some of the data and what it tells us is that there is no single source of misinformation, it is coming from a variety of sources. some of it is coming on social media platform, some of it is coming through videos that are being shared through text messaging platforms. it's coming through multiple sources. that's why one of the issues that we laid out in the advisory, one of the calls to action that we've put forward
is one to individuals, to ask them to pause before they share on social media platforms or text platforms. to check the sources of the information they're about to share and ask if it's coming from a credible source? if it is that it might be okay to share, but if it's not or you're not sure that don't share. one of the most powerful things we can do to stop the spread of misinformation is to be more careful about what we choose to share. >> you know, it seems like we still have two categories of people, and i just want to see if this jives with your characterization, a recent polling from washington post abc said that 20% would definitely not get vaccinated and 29 unlikely to get vaccinated, it seems that there are still low-hanging fruits, a few chunk of people who are not having the opportunity, or it's low on their to do list, and then the people who are hard-core set against it. but it does seem, it's your understanding that your people
in that category had to be vaccinated? >> well i'm so glad you asked chris, because the numbers actually, to me, have a lot of good news and them. we have the highest vaccine confidence level about the covid-19 vaccine, and we have since the vaccine has become available. that's because people are hearing from trusted sources. it's also happening because people know more and more people who have gotten vaccinated, and they're seeing that they've done well. but there is still a group of people who are in the sea category who are still nervous, maybe they have been exposed to misinformation, they still have questions that they want answers to, maybe they're unsure if it's important for them to get vaccinated. and i want to see about the last category, they believe that cases are so low right now that it's no longer important to get vaccinated. i want to say very clearly, it's still important to get vaccinated. we are seeing cases rise. we're seeing that the depths are happening among the people who are unvaccinated.
99% of the covid deaths are from people who are unvaccinated. so there's progress, but it's not easy. we have to work with trusted messengers, we have to get the information to where people are. we have to work through local doctors and nurses and others in your community to gather information, lifesaving can information, so that people can hear it. >> speaking to you in july 2021 after hundreds of millions of shots have been distributed, the new york yankees red sox game was canceled because of covid. the rate of community transmission affects all of our risks, vaccinated, unvaccinated, much more for those who are unvaccinated. is there a world in which rising case numbers isn't incentive for people to get vaccinated? is there a silver lining that -- perhaps, we are seeing a spike that is horrible in many ways, that that's a way for people to get the shot?
>> well chris, i hope it doesn't come to that. but i hope that people will look at the rising case numbers and recognize that this pandemic is not over and given that we are seeing the infections -- the vast majority of these cases who are unvaccinated, i hope that people will recognize that vaccination is what will help us protect yourselves. and i am saying this not only as the surgeon general, but also as a dad of a three and four-year-olds were not yet illegible who can get vaccinated. for all kids who cannot get vaccinated, they rely on the rest of us to be shields, if you, will a against the virus. when you choose to get vaccinated, you don't just choose to protect yourself, you choose to protect the children in your community. so do it for yourselves, do it for your loved ones, do it for your children for them to be safe. >> dr. vivek murthy, he's the surgeon general of the united states, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thanks so much chris, take
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talk about her grandkids when they talk about climate change, but grandkids are a long way off and climate change is here. just this summer, we're setting records of heat throughout the northwest, we've got fires, scorching the mountain west and the fire season that is getting longer and longer, and longer. and at the same time, you have politicians and washington trying to hammer out some real climate policies, at least the democrats are. the most important aspects of climate policy is the clean energy standard. it's just a way for the government to tell people, look, you've got to get this much clean energy in your energy iteration, and you can't admit
as much carbon as we used to. and every year they put it down. that also creates positive incentives for consumer use and if you pair that with regulations on efficiency, you can make a difference. here's a look at california which is done both clean energy standard. there is the divergence between how much energy they consume in california how much they consume in the u.s.. that's all just regulation doing its job. the clean energy standard is one part of that regulation and is, as of now, inside the big package that was announced yesterday. climate activists have been laser focused on it, and one of the biggest advocates for international clean energy standard is senator tina smith, from minnesota. we and she joins me now. senator, what are the things about the clean energy standard is that we have a laboratory of the states effect here where dozens of states have tried this and it's worked very well.
>> that's exactly right chris. clean electricity standard, one in three americans live in a place where there is some sort of clean energy standard or renewables standard. so this is a practical policy, but it's also a progressive and powerful policy for getting our utility sector to net zero as quickly as possible. and here's the thing, if you electrify, if you clean up the electricity sector, you have the potential, as you electrify everything else from transportation to building heating and cooling, to clean up the entire economy. and that's why it's so powerful. >> right, so i want to make sure people understand this because it's sort of a fascinating thing to think about. the two steps and getting to net zero is you've got to get the grid to zero and then you've got to get everything on the grid. but those things have to happen. you can electrify as many things as you want but you have to get it to zero.
so what is the clear energy standard in legislation right now, how would that work, how why would the federal government be doing right now to get state grids towards zero emissions? >> first of what we do, here is the goal, we're gonna get to net zero, clean energy, and the utility sector -- that's our goal. and we're gonna get 80% of the way there by 2030. and then we say to states and utilities, you tell us what kind of clean energy is going to work best in your state. so there's a lot of flexibility built-in, and that's important because what is good clean energy in california might be really different from what works in minnesota, or in oklahoma, or in west virginia, for example. and what we do in this bill is be provide an incentive for utilities to get to add clean energy. this is really important to because we don't want them to add clean energy on the one hand and then take it away on
the other hand. they have to be adding clean energy. it could be wind and solar, it could be hydro power, it could be geothermal, it could be nuclear. it could also be carbon capture and storage. as long as it's clean, we counted. >> and do they have -- are their yearly meant benchmarks? the problem with all these targets is, where like college kids with a paper do, we've been kicking the can and putting it off, and putting it off, and putting it off, and putting it off. it seems to me that for the policy to be effective, there has got to be some short term pressure. >> absolutely. this is an investment based strategy. a lot of people say, well tina, how can this work with reconciliation? and let me just explain a little bit about that. we're talking about a budget bill here, this policy that we are proposing is about an investment -- you provide an investment to
utilities, to add clean energy. and i think we should also say, hey, if you're not adding cleared electricity to your grid, there should be a penalty to. but i hear from utilities they can see that this is the way it's going, they just won get there faster. and that's what makes it so transformational. this has the potential to be as transformational we as when this -- as when everybody in this country could turn the lights on. >> this is funny, i've come to view it this way from my -- various interviews with people in this policy place. it sounds as though this problem -- there was the carbon tax for a while, there was -- there all these policies that floated around. i'm big -- i'm convinced they're basically saying to utilities, here's what you've got to do, figure out how to do it. it's actually the best way to drive down emissions. >> yes.
and it's an incentive. and let's be honest, everybody sort of likes an incentive. they likes to be told here's the direction we go, here's what we're gonna do, this is the direction to head in, and we're gonna help you get there, i get there faster. because we don't have any time to pacifica round here, we have to -- we cannot wait for another 30 or 40 years. so i think that is the power of this idea. and when you combine it with all of the policies that we have also included in this piece of legislation, electric charging stations, incentives to build out of smart grid. texans sentence for building clean electricity. all of that comes together to be a truly transformational policy, and that's what we need right now. we need something that puts us on a trajectory that's going to put america on the cutting edge of clean energy and the energy transformation. >> do you think there is 50
votes? do you think the costs caucus is behind this? you know, this is the whole ball game right now. we have an outline of a map, and that we have to fill in the details of this map in a way that gets us to 50 votes. i can't help but be optimistic for a couple of reasons. one, the clean electricity standard, when you ask americans, i don't care where they live, in minnesota, in california, and west virginia, they say that this is a really good idea. they like this idea. it's supported, there is supported by unions and organizations, utilities. >> yes, that is true. a lot of groundwork has been laid for this policy at this moment. senator tina smith, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you so much. >> we that is all in on this thursday night, the rachel maddow show, good evening rachel. >> chris happy birthday to msnbc, did you know that it's
our 25th birthday today? >> no! i had no idea. this is one of those moments, this is a very pandemic moment. because i feel like if we're on 30 rock, there would've been something going around. but no, i didn't know it. happy birthday. 25 years. >> happy birthday. neither of us were here when it started, but he gets a benefit for being here at the 25th. i know exactly what you mean. it's like bunting did not appear at my house. but i'm trying to get into the spirit of it. hence the cross top. anyway, thanks my friend. anyway. thanks, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. all right. this was a week ago today in phoenix, arizona. this is thursday last week, it was 112 degrees in phoenix that day. ♪ can't take it no more ♪ ♪ we're fired up ♪ ♪ can't take it no more ♪ ♪ we're fired up ♪