tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 8, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
kick out of people kissing butt. he thinks that people who kisses butt all the time are pretty weak. j.d.! they're talking about you! you! as the kids would say, you played yourself. and for your molly coddling flip-flopper, you are tonight's worst in a suck-up. theis tonight's reidout. tonight on all -- >> you've got to ask what is the problem. get over this. get over this political statement. just get over it and try to save the looifgs of yourself and your family. >> a new plea from medical experts with americans needlessly dying and the anti-vax media attacks. >> the focus of this administration on vaccination is mind boggling. >> then our democrats are about to walk out again to stop a new voter restrictions push in
texas? plus why mitch mcconnell is wanting to defund police. and the backlash to the truth about american history when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the delta variant is spreading. even countries of higher vaccination levels than our own have started to see the delta variant penetrated less vaccinated population. in israel, more than 80% of people with vaccinated but the majority of kids still waiting. delta has been fueling outside breaks at schools. here at home this familiar lu unwelcome headline hospitals in missouri are once again low on ventilators. he delivered a blunt message
about vaccines. >> this is not complicated. we're not asking anybody to make any political statement one way or the other. we're saying try and say your life and that of your family and that of the community. it's -- you know, we have so many things, as you said, so many diseases that i deal with that don't have solutions. it's very frustrating. you don't have a treatment or you don't have a vaccine. here we have a vaccine that's highly, highly effective in preventing disease and certainly in preventing severe disease and hospitalization. it's easy to get. it's free throw and it's readily available. so, you know, you've got to ask what is the problem. get over it. get over this political statement. just get over it and try to save the lives of yourself and your family. >> apparently, that triggered some of the folks over at fox news who took issue with dr.
fauci's words. >> the focus of this administration on vaccination is mind boggling. they've done a good job of getting the word out and getting the vaccine out. they're available if you want them. that's not enough. now you need to be berated by none other than dr. fauci because you're playing politics. that's the reason you may have not gotten it. >> does your doctor talk to you that way? >> get over it. >> get over it, you have to day this shot? no. you talk about your choices. you as an adult need to make those decisions. >> to shame people into a vaccine is not good. >> i mean, your doctor should be pushy with you in circumstances like this, honestly. it is a matter of life and death. the centers for disease control say according to preliminary data, 99.5% of covid deaths in
the u.s. over the past six months occurred in unvaccinated people. and yet, we continue to see this very worrying dangerous trend of the right wing media. some people turning against the vaccine. the leaders of this movement are cowardly. they refuse to have the courage of their convictions. they will not say they are dependence the vaccine. instead, they take this straw man stance saying they're against anyone trying to promote the vaccine or heaven forbid, mandating it. they're not man dating the vaccine. that's the reason for the hectoring. it's the reason why president joe biden spoke about going door to door to reach people who have not been vaccinated. which created all sorts of freak-outs on the right. they're trying to persuade americans to get the vaccine is precisely because it's not
mandated. le if it were mandated dr. fauci would not have to go on national tv to talk able to. being the president, the cdc director and every else could just go heenld shut up. so on the fox & friends and others on the right who say nobody try to convince them to take the shot. they don't want it mandated. they just want it out there. what they're saying is you don't want people to get the vaccine. come out and say it but they won't say it. because that means you want people to die. those are the options right now. it is what the data show as this variant becomes the dominant strain. it was particularly twisted about that and maddening. i think about this every day as i read the headlines. there is a very obvious other avenue the entire right wing maga world conservatives fox news can take. here's an example. republican committee chair
ronald mcdaniel summed it up in this tweet. biden was spreading doubt about the efficacy. biden should thank trump for developing a vaccine in record time. >> it's not like donald trump himself developed the vaccine. it's kind of a funny image with him in lab coat with a little dropper. the mrna technology has been in use for years. there's some arguments that the program which doled out about $10 billion to accelerate the vaccine gave guaranteed purchasers in the end did help. for the purpose here it's not like truth matters. for donald trump, the republican party. if they're going to pick a deceptive narrative to go with, why not go with that one? that donald trump delivered us these vaccines and we should
thank him and get our trump shots. he has occasionally half-heartedly made argument, telling the crowd, go get your shot. he's not leaning into it. the other day he's just as scared as the event vaxxers than the rest of the movement. all of them from donald trump to tucker carlson are cowards when it comes down to it. they're just chasing after the base, they're chasing the base. they're not leading. they're not telling them things they don't want to hear. vaccines were the greatest accomplishment of the trump presidency. they should be hosting maga rallies with mass vaccination and a free hat with a shoot. they could do that if they wanted to. instead they chose the path of least resistance. so in southern missouri where cases are surging, hospitals are
runs out of very vens, the president and ceo said if you're making disparaging comments and have no health expertise, you may be responsible for someone's death. shut up. clair mccaskill, former democrat from missouri. and an author. clair, let me start with you. in missouri, there's really some worrying stuff happening there. i'll tell you what the data say that there's, you know, vaccinations are 56% of adults have at least one dose. only 49% fully vaccinated but in parts of the straight where we have these outside breaks you have in the southeast particularly about 51% of age vaccinated. what's going on? >> if you look at the dark areas on the map where you have a significantly higher number of
people vaccinated, those are the areas in and around kansas city and st. louis. in the middle of the state in colombia, missouri. the rest of the state you have a real problem. you have not just anti-vaxxers. you have a governor who is -- has a huge part in this disaster that is currently in the making in missouri. someone who today tried to tell missourians he was going to stop the federal government from going door to door. nobody's talking about the federal government going door to door. they're talking about community activists and volunteers going out in their own neighborhoods and trying to encourage people to get the vaccine. the other element here that we've got to remember is the lady on fox news says you should talk to your doctor. a huge number in rural missouri don't have a doctor. you can't qualify for medicaid if you're a grown adult without
children, no matter how poor you are. there is a large pockets of people who do not have any health insurance and only go to the emergency room. if they are really sick. so there's not a doctor to talk to, but many of them talk to mayor minister, chris. the evangelicals have a big part of this especially in southwest missouri, where we have megachurches. if those ministers would step up and preach god's word about taking care of your fellow man, i think we could get our vaccination rate in some areas where we're seeing the number one locations in the country for the delta variant. >> you ream have left your position as an advisor in the white house where you guys were dealing with exactly these questions. and i guess what's -- how do you understand the right approach here, and what do you make of the sort of proactive push
against the mandate before there is a mandate when everyone's just trying to do the persuasion thing? >> well, look, my heart goes out to people in her state where she's watching what are essentially preventable deaths begin to occur and pile up. because we have actually a very dangerous variant in delta, but the great news is we also have something that stopping it in its tracks, and we all have to take a deep breath and be big enough not to bait one another to turn it into a political fight. i think the notion that margie taylor green and others have started, if the government is behind something, therefore, by definition, facism, is a worn out and dangerous trope that is essentially trying to fight a political battle where i say the
biden administration has been avoiding political battles. i give great credit to the president for steering clear of taking the bite on a lot of this chum being thrown in the water by effectively saying we're going to be steadfast focused on every single american. you can try to distract us by calling us names and talking about mashism, but they've got to focus on what they were elected to do, which the last president did not do. >> and there has been an absence of leadership. part of what's happening is there's this cowardice. mitch mcdonald came out and said get vaccinated. jim justice being proactive, saying we really need to do in. a lot of republican leaders, i don't know what the governor of missouri, what note he's been striking on this but a t lot of republican leaders pushing it to the side or using this idea of like standing up to big government as a way of being
essentially like anti-pro vaccine. clair. >> yeah. our governors have really been a problem. we never had any kind of mask mandate that was real. he continues to not even encourage people to get the vaccine. i will give roy blunt credit. he was out today and said the vaccine's safe, i took it the first day i could, my family took it the first day they could. he's a lonely voice. we have a hot primary for a senate seat next year and they're all trying to outside-trump each other and the governor is leading the parade, even though he's not running. he had the nerve to actually blame management for a lack of ventilators being ready at this dramatic shift in the environment in southwest missouri. and it is really hard when you have a governor that is not supporting our front line health care workers and is frankly doing nothing to encourage vaccination and spreading false
rumors that nothing would spread faster in rural missouri, i can assure you, chris, and the federal government's going to knock on your door. and that's the resume over he's spreading and it's widely irresponsible. >> let me ask a technical yes. one of the things i've seen people say. it would help -- we're at 67, 68%, so you think 32% of eligible adults who haven't gotten it. people who are for idealogical reasons, dead set against it, that might be 20%. there's fill a lot of persuadable folks. it's a question of accessible, ease, all those sort of things, that if the fda moved from emergency use authorization to full authorization that that would help. i've seen some people say i don't know. it's emergency. do you think that would help? is that something that we should be thinking of in the horizon? >> well, it will help. i think we're probably only likely weeks away from that
happening. i think this should create a big push for people to say ok, you said you were waiting for the jury to tell you whether or not this vaccine was safe, but in hundreds of millions of americans it's safe. we've saved hundreds of thousands of lives. there was a study out which said the acceleration of the vaccine from the biden administration saved hundreds of thousands of lives. here what they've said. if you've been on the fence, we understand, but it's time toe go. one other thing i'd say in terms of governors and senators and people speaking up, i think every day somebody should play the tape from chris crystal who talked about chris christie. your political affiliations dribble pretty fast when they think they're going to die. he had a couple of moments. people i listened to in southwest missouri squloochlt clair mccass cal, that was
great. thank you both. you may remember texas was on the brink of passing one of the strictest voting bills in the country, already one of the hardest states in the union to vote in. the dramatic late night workout staged by the reps blocked it. republicans are back in session. are democrats about to walk out again? that's next. you'll find better cheers with your favorite fans. you'll find a better life is in store at miracle-ear, when you experience the exclusive miracle-ear advantage. our team is devoted to your care, with free service adjustments and cleaning of your miracle-ear hearing aids for life. we're so confident we can improve your life, we're offering a 30-day risk-free trial. call 1-800-miracle today and experience the miracle-ear advantage. discover card i just got my cashback match is this for real? yup! we match all the cash back new card members earn at the end of their first year automatically woo! i got my mo-ney!
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texas republicans are once again trying to restrict the rights of millions of voters, including introducing a pair of bills today during a special legislative session that would add criminal penalties, empower partisan poll watchers and ban drive-through and overnight options for earlier voting. that was tried last election. harris county texas tried to encourage as many people as possible to vote during the pandemic. four million people live in harris county. the third most populace county in the united states. a number of harris county voters showed up. biden won there by 13%. republicans are trying to ban many of the early voting options that allowed so many people to vote last year. they staged a walkout. what do they plan to do to stop this latest effort?
i'm joined by democratic texas state representative jasmine crockett. representative, it's great to have you. first let us understand the weirdness of the special session and the ways of the texas legislature work. this session has been called for a bunch -- to focus on a few issues. what are those issues and what happens now? >> focus is an interesting word to use as well, because it definitely does not seem like there's a focus. you know, one of the things that i realize is that a special session is supposed to be for extraordinary measures. yet our governor did not call a special session when we were in the middle of a pandemic and people were dying. he decided now to call a special session so he can deal with things like critical race theory, if he knows what that means, so he can deal with things such as bail reform if he truly understands what our constitution says about the
presumption of innocence. he wants to deal with voter suppression rather than voter access because we saw in the 202 election, the great things that harris county did and allowed to state to only have a six-point spread. texas is supposed to be deep red but i think we learned that texas isn't really deep red. it's just that the ballot box is not available. >> in 2016, 55% turnout. in a presidential election, that is low. trump won by 9%. many 2020, 66.2% turnout. huge bump. trump's margin is 5.6%. still fairly comfortable win for a republican in that state. these restrictions now, are they the same ones that they proposed last time around or have things changed? >> a lot of them will the same. i will toll you that one thing that i can thank the media for
is shining a light on what was going on in texas. it's kind of like, oops, i got caught so let me stop doing that right there. let's rewind that one. we saw the polls, they have pulled back on that provision. they were arguing that i guess fraud occurs only in the morning on sundays. the frauds are not out after 1:00 p.m., right. so they're saying you can't vote before 1:00 p.m. on a sunday because that's probably fraudulent, right, because the good people are at church. i don't know what the argument was. it didn't make sense. you have to understand that the authors of the senate bill as well as the house bill are both attorneys, and these are attorneys that went to other states trying to overturn the election on behalf of trump. >> wow. >> they came back and had these ideas of things they could do to hopefully put trump into a better position in the state of
texas if for some reason it came down to that. >> all right. so you walked -- you guys led this incredible walk-out. it ran the clock out on the regular session. abbott said -- >> right. >> -- we're going to call a special session. dan patrick was asked about it. i want to may his response and hear what you have to say about it. here's what lieutenant governor dan patrick had to say about what would happen if democrats walk out en masse again. take a listen. >> if they leave, they're stuck. because i think that when you look at the '22 election, november a year from now, independent voters, democrats may stick with some of them. even democratic voters will be upset. it's one thing having anarchy in the sfreets but when you run for office and win you have a constitutional duty to show up. she should show up. if they walk out again, that will be on them. i believe them stay but we'll
see what actions they are. the price would be too huge with the voters, i believe. >> so that should be -- that -- i know what that sounds like as a political reporter. that is -- that's the sound of i am poe tense. he's saying there's nothing we can do if you walk out again, the voters will punish you. can you stop it again? >> yes and no. i'll be perfectly honest. the law is not clear on how far the speaker can go. so first of all, the lieutenant governor has no control over us in the house. he definitely runs the senate as a tyrant. that is honest to goodness truth how he runs the senate. and so you know, when it comes to the house side, though, there are questions about what can the speaker do, can the speaker get dps to get out there and actually decide to detain us.
we haven't committed any crime, so they can't arrest us but they can drag us back in the house and say sit here while we force this down your throat. so there are some potential options. the law is a little unclear, but there's always an option. that is just kind of basics. if they could change it in the middle of the game, best believe they would. you know, this bill doesn't help anybody. we do have a voter issue in the state of texas, but that issue is access. texas is the hardest state to vote in, is what they're saying. they're saying let's make it harder, let's make it more problematic. let's give people a reason not to vote. there are a ton of felonies in this bill.
there were 17 and 1 felonies they're creating. you're passing a bill randomly this summer of, you know, this session, this special session where people may not know what the new crazy laws are. so that's a deterrent. some people may say never mind. i don't want to take a chance because we saw what happened to have crystal mason in fort worth. >> sure. >> she ended up five years in prison and her vote didn't even count for a simple mistake. >> one of the democrats who is fighting against this bill in the texas state legislature. enjoyed talking to you tointd. thank you. >> thank you. >> you not go anymore because nicole jones joins me live ahead. stick around. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.
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put this way before, but according to a you inform report, a bunch of conservative political groups with come together to defund the police. it's just a very specific type of police. of course, conservatives have loudly been arguing against defunding the police and for increasing police bumgts and for mass encars race and stop and risk. you have to ruthlessly patrol all incursions, no matter how low. all those people need the book thrown at them, otherwise order up ravels and you have chaos and crime. check out what happened in a walgreen's in san francisco. this is a man in brought day light looting a store and filling up a garbage bag. >> supporting daings, that would stop crime. the democrats don't care. >> it isn't racist. did they skov a crime? no they didn't bullpen 12% of all stop and frisk senks did
discover a crime. >> you've got to pay attention to somebody urinating on the street. >> there has been an experiment the country has been running in defunding the miss in one specific domain. it supports the right wing view on this. that's tax crime. the agency responsible for policing federal tax crimes is the internal revenue service. the republicans took over the house and forced a massive defunding of the irs. a study found the number of irs revenue agents fell between 2010 and 2020 with half as many cops on the beat as 10 years ago. that has had a huge affect on who gets audited. the numbers of agents were decreasing, the number of wealthy people has nearly doubled. the number of millionaire returns has fallen 72%, down from more than 40,000
millionaire audits in 2012 to just over 11,000 in twenty tonight. they turned up $4.8 billion in unreported taxes. with twice as many millionaires but less than a third the number of audits, the government reported only 1.2 million dollars in taxes. it would note be outside landish to believe that the actual tax gap -- the difference between how much is owed and how much is collected -- could approach and possibly compete one trillion dollars per year. one trillion dollars. that's double, almost, the proposed bipartisan infrastructure bill. the government a trillion dollars every year. to be clear, i'm not talking about raising anyone's taxes. this is just talking about literally collecting the taxes that are owed.
that people who can afford to pay them are criminally avoiding. now, a group of calm democrats and republicans actually agreed to increase funding for the irs as part of that bipartisan infrastructure deal, hoping that putting more cops on the beat will bring in more revenue and help pay for the bill. but to the institutional republican party, the idea that rich people should be able to cheat on their taxes and get away with it is as core to them with the exception that only certain people should vote. that is why they are mobilizing to stop more funding via irs. we know what the consequences will look like. look at the party's leader. donald trump. a man whose company and chief financial officer were just criminally indicted for years of ondog systematic tax fraud, none of which has been sufficiently investigated. defending the rights of donald trumps of the world to not pay taxes while you do is one of the
last unifying projects of the morally and intellectually desiccated republican party. they have pine eared a certain kind of definding the police and defending that is a hill they will die on no matter how much it costs. when it comes to a certain class of criminal, there is no one softer on crime than the republican party. softer on crime than the republican party (vo) the subaru crosstrek. dog tested. dog approved. i don't feel sick why should i cure my hepatitis c? how can i handle one more thing? you can stay on track and be cured in only 8 weeks with mavyret.
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recognize, truths that generations of people worked to cover up. this have been two potentially influential writers, but two who devoted their life's work at this point to excavating this loss history, putting it out there front and center and making us look at it. for that she was awarded the 2020 pulitzer prize. the journalist and author won the george polk award. a national book award for between the world and me. both of them have been key to understanding of american history in this moment and this week, just did something exciting. they're going to start a new center for journalism and
democracy. congratulations on the announcement. maybe i'll start with you nicole on just the question of why now? you know, we have feet about american history all the time and we have curriculum fights all the time. i remember there was a freakout because there was a book called "health every has two mommies" and that was going to be the end of the world. what is going on now? why is it that the sort of ferocity of this backlash and this fight on these -- on this terrain right now in your mind? >> thanks for having us on the show. feels like a reunion for all of us to be together not in the same room. looks like you got a little bit better light. >> i'm trying. >> so you know, i've been thinking about this a lot as you both have.
i think you kind of have to draw a direct line from what happened last year with these global protests and so many americans trying to make these connections that, oh, what happened to george floyd is not just about individual incident. this is part of a legacy and a pattern. we started seeing corporations, we've started seeing polling numbers of white americans who are saying oh, we actually do think systemic racism is a thing. this backlash is in direct response to that, because what -- the narrative of american exceptionalism tells us that the inequality we see today, that's a fact in anything you can measure, black and indigenous people are at the bottom of that. this is a country where everyone has the same rights and if you work hard, you can overcome. when people start to question that foundational mythology, that's when they geared up the backlash in the sense that white
americans were losing some personal stake that they have. as we exam the history we're not saying white people is good as a people, that they are losing something. that is what's so important. how do you justify voter suppression laws, how do you justify trying to overturn an election? you have to have a narrative and this is part of that narrative that in serving a larger political ambition. >> you once road this line, and i think about it all the time, because nicole was talking about all these disparities between white and black folks, latinos, asian americans, others in different ways, but black and white particularly. you can look at whatever rate, incarceration, poverty. there's different stories you can tell about this. one of them is white supremacy. they ended up on the bottom because they're worse. the other is structural racism.
that's the fight right now. you say there's nothing wrong with black people that ending it wouldn't fix. that's the fight we're having. people don't want to -- they're rebelling dependence that idea. >> i think that's exactly right, and just to piggy back on what knick oel says, this is not coincidental that you're having this fight right now but what story are we going to tell about this country and the very same people tried to restrict voting at the pole. that's not coincidental. redemption went hand in hand with the lost cause. when we want to do something we generally reach back to our collective memory to justify it. when we wanted to go into iraq, the phrase jeffersonian democracy. it assures these rights and
therefore going to another nation, stop on a group of people and install something we've been doing since 1776. in fact, had we had a more serious reckoning with our actual history maybe we would have questioned the prem ils of that in the first place. the bottom line what i'm trying to get across is history is not just something that's happening over there. it's directly connected to politics. that's why what nicole has done is so dangerous. here you have as far as i'm concerned one of our most decorated journalists period, barring none. not black journalists, period, period, and folks couldn't even fix themselves to take a vote until they were forced to to come out in the light of day and say no, we don't want this. >> and that's -- i mean, i agree about the backlash. i've said this on the show. i'm curious what you think, which is how central is race in the story -- how much is racism
part of the american story and to the degree that one coalition in american life decides backlash to that is the most important thing. it seems like it's proven the point a little bit. the freakout itself seems to seek the centrality in the way you are making the case for centrality. >> yes. one, the fact that you can understand that if you are a political party that is struggling to maintain a majority that the key to getting power is to stoke racism, tells you that race has long been and continues to be a central organizing factor in american politics and american life. also, really look at the laws and these argues and critical race theory. i was reading an article yesterday about a school board meeting in tennessee where a white mother claimed that her child was being taught critical race theory because they were
studying ruby's book. the argument was that it was too black and white. it was talking about white people doing something to black people and that didn't seem fair. it didn't have a happy ending. what the laws are saying is not that we shouldn't teach the truth about history, that we need to teach the truth about history, but the truth about history is too harmful to white children. those are two different arguments, right, so that is to me, admitting how endemic race is to the american story, if we can't teach our true history because it will make children think our country is racist. >> i want to -- >> yeah. go ahead, kd. >> no, i just wanted to go back to this. i just want us toss really punctuate this. that this is not nearly, you know, school boards debating about what crick bum they're going to deep or what they're not going to teach. this is the state. the president of the united states stood up and denounced
the 1619 project and passed an executive order. these are state laws being passed. this is in the shadow of us only a couple of years having the debate about how cancel culture was out of control and cancel culture and this and that. this is the state mill dating against as particularly telling of history. it makes the point that history is relevant, that white supremacy actually is relevant. >> it is true that the president of the united states did that. at one point. i -- a lot of things. i want to talk about a sort of interesting turn that i think some of this conversation has the taken recently and i want to get your thoughts on what i call a psychological turn. nicole hannah jones. stay with us. hi mr. charles, we made you dinner. ahh, thank you!
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they are starting a new center at howard university on journalism in democracy. i want to talk to you, one theme i think in both of your work that you have pursued. it's present in the writing in the reparations piece and -- and -- and the book. it's present in nikole's a bunch of her work. it's just the fact that, you know, racism, white supremacy, racial hierarchy, is not a psychological phenomenon. it's partly that. but it's a structural, legal, material, economic. there are laws. there is history. and that, we have a conversation that tends to be very about not trusting people. and one of the things i think happened in the wake of george floyd is a turn. i feel folks offering training sessions and things like that, that are very psychologically rooted in overcoming racism.
because, that seems, easier, more palpable, than what it would take to undo the structures that create the society we have. and i am just curious, to get your thoughts about that. about where this kind of conversation is, a year after, particularly george floyd and black lives matter and things like that, tom? >> you know, i -- i think a couple things. um, i think, first of all, you're right to -- to -- to point to the material component. i have been at pains to say that while we have made lemons out of lemonade, or nikole has made lemonade out of lemons, excuse me, in this situation. don't forget that they served up lemons. university of north carolina's a public institution. it is a public, you know, a social contract between that university and its citizens. and they've been deprived. the students have been deprived. and when you sign a social contract, or when you buy into a social contract and the state does not hold up its end. that -- that's -- and so, i
think that really, you know, needs to be highlighted. in terms of doing the hard things to remedy that. you know, chris, actually, i think that goes back to the issue that you talk about all the time. we basically have a constitution that empowers a -- a -- a concentrated minority. i am not big, you know, on talking about feelings. you know, and necessarily, on training. you know, when -- when it comes to this. but i do think that the people who are -- who actually hold the power, and are actually preventing a real material reckoning, not necessarily sure they're always the same people who are doing the training, if that makes sense. even if what they're doing, you know, isn't necessarily all that constructive. >> yeah. that's -- i think that's an interesting way of saying it. nikole. >> yeah. so, as you know, i always say that inequality is structural. but it's, also, upheld by individual choices. so, i think we have to address both of those things.
politicians are doing what their constituents allow them to do. and this pushback would not be successful, if there were not many, many white americans who just want to believe that they are good people. and don't want to address the larger, systemic inequality. so, we have to look at both of those things. but i don't think it's that useful, when we talk about racial inequality, to talk about, you know, the individual-bad apple. the racist of the week. all of my work is in opposition to that because slavery was not because white people thought black people were inferior. slavery was a system of economic exploitation. and they created race and racism, in order to justify that -- that economic exploitation. >> yes. >> so we have to understand, when people are like, oh, i don't see color. it doesn't matter. well, that's, actually, irrelevant, race is a construct to justify exploitation. and it is, still, being used to justify exploitation. so spending a lot of time thinking about whether people have individual animus, or not, means that we don't ever have to
spend the time actually identifying the structures. and working to dismantle and -- and change the structures that actually lead to and sustain inequality. this is what our work, both, has done and i think that's where that opposition comes from. if we were just writing about some individual racist here and there, people would not be opposing our work. it's because we are pointing to the structures that the work gets opposed. >> and i, also, think that the -- that the part of it, too, has to do with this. you -- nikole, you write about this all the time and talk about this sort of innocence. you can feel the -- the -- the emotion, the flushed emotion in the cheeks of the people who are leading this backlash. about, like, they are implicated. or you're saying my kid is bad. like, this desire to have this innocence. and -- and -- and perceiving the work, which says like, this is the way the country's unfolded. this is the way the racial hierarchy. as -- as a personal attack on that innocence, as a personal
sphere in the heart of someone, psychologically. >> what's actually amazing about these attacks on critical-race theory is critical-race theory is the opposite of saying individual-white people are responsible for what's happening in society. right? it's actually alleviating them of that guilt because -- >> that's right. >> -- and will replicate the inequality, whether you have racial animus in your life, or not. and it helps us understand that. >> but, nikole, you might have to do something, though. that's the thing. >> right, exactly. exactly. >> you might have to actually do something. that's the problem. you know? >> that's right. >> right. >> yeah. sorry, go ahead. >> no, no, i cut you off. as i always do. i -- i was just saying -- you know, but -- it -- it -- just really quickly. really quickly. i was just saying that -- that
it still charges you with having to do something. you know what i mean? i think that's the problem. you still might have to part with some of your material possessions. you might have to look around at your all-white school and say, i think, there's a problem here. you know? >> yes, and that's -- that, i think, is -- that is what the implication that people don't like. and i -- i -- i get that. i can feel it in my heart, sometimes. nikole hannah-jones and tom coates, it's great to have you both. let's see each other in person, soon, sometime now that we're vaccinated. >> sorry for cutting you off, nikole. >> i'm used to it. >> see? an object lesson for everyone about how hard it is to deal with the delay that comes with the talking on television. um, it's hard. it's tricky. it's like you get stuck in that thing where you are like this on the street with someone, you keep going the same way. that's "all in" for this evening. r