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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  July 2, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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the governor has been here every day. the senators i believe the same. the fact that we've all come together is what gives us hope, is what gives us strength and inspiration. it does for me every single day. >> thank you, mr. president. and you recognize the severity of this tragedy from day one and you've been very supportive. the cooperation has been great. the local, both the pew nice mu and the county. we have had no bureaucracy. >> you know what's good about this, the cooperating. >> yes, sir. >> it's really important. >> a nice bipartisan moment yesterday between president biden and florida governor ron
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desantis and local leaders as well as local and federal leaders put politics aside in the aftermath of last week's deadly condo collapse. good morning and welcome to "morning joe" it's friday, july 2nd. along with willie and me we have msnbc political analyst claire mckasskill, eugene robinson, and white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. mika has the morning off. that was a nice moment. we've seen a few moments. we never want to overread into these moments and if we do, we certainly will hear about it, people suggesting that we're somehow hopelessly naive. but it is important for americans, it is important for the world to see the president and the governor of florida sitting down, being polite with
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each other, agreeing with each other that they're on the same team, that they're working together to alleviate the terrible pain, the terrible suffering that these families are going through in florida. we also saw it earlier this week when we saw mitch mcconnell, yes, mitch mcconnell i can say his words i promise you no one watching will disappear or be turned into a pile of ashes. when mitch mcconnell said some nice things about joe biden and his relationship with joe biden. are there fights going on in washington? yes. are we going through a very bleak winter from january 6th? yes. yes. there are reasons to be discouraged as we look all around. but also let's look for reasons to be hopeful. i thought yesterday, willie, was one of those moments where we could go, yeah, that's -- that's what grown ups have done in
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american government for 240 years now. >> well, it's a commentary where we are that it did stand out yesterday because that is a disaster, a crisis, where the baseline is that the two leaders get together, work together but it's true in our current climate it was notable the way they spoke together. and also to think those two guys could be running against each other for president in 2024 depending on what donald trump decides to do with his political future. the man whose hand president biden put on ron desantis there that could be his opponent in 2024. >> you're right. >> that is a moment of terrible sadness down there, of terrible grief, down in surfside, florida. president biden went down and did what he does arguably better than anything else, which is to help people work through their pain and it was a nice moment
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yesterday. >> also, willie, ron desantis could have said anything at that moment. and he talked about -- he talked about the federal government's involvement and praised it. more so than anything we would have seen over the past five years in similar situations when you had people coming together that obviously were on opposite ends in a very toxic political culture. so, yeah, i put a check by that and say, okay, that's a nice moment, let's build on that. >> yeah. we'll take what we can get these days. let's dive into the news. former president trump's family business and chief financial officer, allen weisselberg, were charged yesterday in a case involving an array of alleged tax related crimes. hallie jackson has the details. >> reporter: the trump
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organization's long-time cfo appearing in handcuffs, indict td along with the company that bears the former president's name, in what is called a sweeping and audacious tax fraud team. they're alleging the trump organization paid top execs off the book, amounting to, for allen weisselberg an extra $1.7 million in compensation, which should have been taxed. instead they say weisselberg e evaluated some $900,000 in federal and state and local taxes and got $100,000 in refunds he was never owed. the defendants pleading not guilty. >> i believe the political forces driving today's events are just that. it's a political -- politically driven. >> in a statement, donald trump himself, who was not charged, calling the investigation a
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continuation of a political witch hunt by the radical left democrats with new york now taking over the assignments. one prosecutor telling the judge, it's not about politics, this investigation, which is ongoing, has been thorough, careful and proper. multiple people familiar with the investigation say the manhattan district attorney and the new york attorney general's office had been looking for cooperation with allen weisselberg. >> i don't think there's any question that the da's office wanted to get allen weisselberg to testify against either or both the trump organization or trump but sometimes it takes bringing the indictment and having him stare in the face for reality to set in. >> that's hallie jackson. let's bring in andrew weissman and joyce vance, both are msnbc
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legal analysts. andrew, i'll begin with you. many said that allen weisselberg is the tip of a larger iceberg. if that is true, what did you learn yesterday when the indictments were unsealed and what's below the surface? >> i think it was a correct description that this was a sweeping indictment. they talk about a 15 year scheme that began long before president trump was the president, continued during the time he was president, and even continued after he was president, involved numerous organizations under the trump ulbrel la and numerous executives. this was a shot across the bow, i think the beginning not the end of the investigation. the signal to allen weisselberg and others is get on board now because we're not afraid to bring charges and we're going to be detailed and thorough in our
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investigation because what they did bring yesterday was impressive. >> joyce, do you agree what they brought yesterday was impressive? >> i agree with andrew in that regard. and i'm struck every time i hear the former president's comments. he didn't say, you know, this is untrue, we're going to fight this. he didn't say like you would think a business owner might, this is outrageous, i can't believe this was going on in my company. instead he returns to witch hunt. what can you say when prosecutors file a highly detailed document that alleges with a lot of specific information that there was a pattern and practice across 15 years of doing all sorts of things to avoid both the payment of taxes by your employees and to permit the corporation to engage in some fraudulent conduct. this is a president who
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infamously in his debate with hillary clinton said he was smart because he didn't pay taxes. we don't know yet whether this case will ultimately reach him right now it's limited to the corporation that's his name sake corporation and to the cfo but those comments in that debate may come back to haunt him. >> andrew, let's talk a little bit about what the next act might be in this ongoing investigation. we know that, first, there is what was accurately described as audacious plan to just boldly with accompanying spread sheets avoid taxes on a large amount of income. but what about, where are we on the hush money investigation as it relates to state charges? and then, finally, how far along do you think they are on this valuation of real estate? this idea that what trump would
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do with some regularity is say real estate was worth a lot more money if he was trying to get a loan and then claim it was worth no money when he was trying to avoid taxes? >> in the prediction mode i think there are two comments. one, i was struck by the fact that the indictments yesterday talked repeatedly about federal tax fraud. and that this was not just a state and city tax fraud scheme. and so i think the pressure has been turned up a bit on what are the feds going to do. it would be an embarrassment to have new york go forward on a massive tax fraud scheme where one of the victims was the federal fisk without the federal government doing anything about that, given especially the pending issues with former president trump and the irs.
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second, i do think that we're going to see more with respect to the bank and insurance fraud issues. i don't expect that to be, and i wouldn't hold my breath on the hush money payments. the reason for that is, that's something that really was amply investigated and i would think they could have gotten to the bottom of that by now. they clearly are not ready to have brought any of those charges and ts is a message to people to cooperate now. but i think there's definitely more to come on potentially both fronts. >> joyce, let's talk about allen weisselberg, the cfo, someone who's long been billed as someone who knows where the bodies are bury or pick your cliche of choice. what is his legal peril?
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what could he face? what are the chances he would decide to flip and testify against more people with the trump organization which could include the president himself or his adult sons who were running the business while he was in office? >> sure. it's clear that allen weisselberg is a witness that you want to have. you always want to have the cfo testifying in a case like this. so prosecutors took a run at him before they brought this indictment. he undoubtedly knew what the allegations were, what the challenges were that would face him as he moved forward and decided for the moment to stay firmly on the side of the former president. the new york sentencing regime here probably leads to sentences that are modest, single digit numbers but weisselberg is in his 70s, it's a difficult time in life for anyone to go to prison, even for a relatively short amount of time, up until
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now that didn't sway him. but something we can take away from the michael cohen prosecution is as the months continue and it's a matter of months before a case like this goes to trial, legal fees will mount. weisselberg will face the option of repaying his taxes, perhaps an option, perhaps a command. so the financial pressure mounts with the reality he may ultimately face some time in prison is a sort of pressure that prosecutors will want to play out. but at this point they clearly have to look at options for making this case go forward without weisselberg. there are perhaps other folks in the corporate spear they can use and one of the risks he faces if they do hit pay dirt because now they brought charges, it may shake loose other people who have been hesitant to cooperate or people that aren't aware that are out there with relevant information. so every day that weisselberg
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doesn't get on board makes the danger he faces much greater. >> we are about to see the lengths of allen weisselberg's loyalty to president trump. thank you both for helping us dig through this. one of the largest bases in afghanistan is clear from soldiers. we learned overnight that officials say that bag ram airfield now has been turned over to the afghan government. we turn to courtney kube, corning. what more can you tell us about this overnight development? >> if you think of the withdrawal of troops from afghanistan as a ten mile run, this is really mile nine. this is a very significant development. it's one that we expected. it shows that the u.s. military withdrawal from afghanistan is pretty much on pace with what
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we've been hearing the last several weeks. it's not something that has been widely publicized this withdrawal. in part because it's a dangerous environment still and a lot of officials the coalition troops g and the taliban striking out at them and this becoming a very contested environment. bagram it was turned over, the last troops left friday morning local time in afghanistan, it was turned over to the afghans just before midnight eastern time, our time, so several hours ago. it now leaves really the majority of troops at one location, at the headquarters in kabul. when that is closed down, when general scott miller leaves, that will really show the end of the conflict there. it's not going to be the complete end of u.s. military presence there.
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there still will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 6, 650 u.s. troops guarding the embassy, it's an enormous embassy and it's going to be a task to keep it safe once all troops are out of there. there could be a couple hundred troops at the kabul airport to keep it safe, that will be joint with the turkish military and other allies. the reason for that, defense officials say you can't have an embassy without a safe airfield. so they need a safe airfield where they can send u.s. military contractors in and other officials can safely leave the country. this is a real milestone. bagram has been almost the hallmark of u.s. military presence in afghanistan for these last 20 years. it's been one of the largest, if
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not the largest base, it's been a relatively safe airfield. the fact that the u.s. turned it over to afghanistan this shows this is very, very close to the end of the u.s. military presence there in afghanistan. >> courtney kube, thank you so much. we appreciate your reporting. gene robinson, this is obviously a move unpopular with many in the pentagon. unpopular with, i would say the majority of the u.s. foreign policy establishment. their rising fears of civil war in afghanistan, rising fears of an ultimate taliban takeover. but if you read the tea leaves, joe biden was ready to get out of afghanistan a long time ago. he opposed barack obama's surge about a decade ago. this was, regardless of what the generals thought, this seemed inevitable. >> it did. you can imagine that if we had
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waited another five years or another ten years to take this step we'd be having the same discussion and the same fears because the taliban is still there. right. they live there, they're going to be there and they're always going to be a presence in -- in afghanistan, or at least for the foreseeable future. and it is -- i think we're going to step back at m some point and we're going to look and say, what did we accomplish in afghanistan? what did we actually do? we managed to dislodge a regime that harbored al qaeda, that's why we went in there in the first place, they harbored the people that planned 9/11 and we did that with relative dispatch. and then the remaining 19 years
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of our involvement there, maybe i'm just kind of looking at the class half empty this morning. but one does wonder, what did we actually accomplish? what did our blood and treasure actually purchase in afghanistan? that's not an easy answer. i don't have an easy answer to that. >> gene, let me just follow-up on that briefly. it's a great question. a question that many people are asking, it's something we could have asked when we left iraq and when we left iraq overnight, of course, we saw exactly what we were accomplishing there. we've been in germany since 1945, following world war ii, we've been in korea since 1950 to stop the north from invading the south and to keep that democracy intact. i guess the question that joe biden is going to have to answer and policy makers will have to
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answer is, are they responsible for what comes next when 4,000, 5,000 troops may have prevented mass chaos in afghanistan? >> i think that's a good question. on the other hand, it's hard to compare afghanistan with germany or japan or south korea with societies that did develop into orderly, democracies that participated in -- on the world stage in a responsible way that managed to govern their spaces, within their borders in an effective way. and so, yes, we -- you know, the u.s. presence, i think, was certainly a factor in that. but the u.s. presence is more to
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guard against potential threats rather than to nation build. the nation build thing in germany, japan, korea, arguably was really, really successful. the nation building in afghanistan, which we never really wanted to acknowledge we were trying to do and therefore never really tried to do all out was not successful. and i don't think we have built a successful state that's going to be another germany, another japan, another korea. >> claire one thing we can say is that american troops, the men and women who have gone over there, have prevented another attack on american soil in the last 20 years. you were a united states senator for 12 years during the height of this war in afghanistan in terms of what comes next we're seeing it, the taliban is retaking ground, they carried out the school bombing in may in west kabul that killed 85
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people. what are your feelings, what are your thoughts, your position on this withdrawal as we watch it take place overnight at bagram? >> it was inevitable if you think about the country of afghanistan. let me pick up where eugene left off. the reason that the nation building, and primarily the billions and billions and billions of dollars we have spent in afghanistan, not only did we try to rebuild their infrastructure, we also tried to instill rule of law, to train police officers, to train their military, and what people need to understand that unlike japan and germany and south korea, this is a country that really didn't have any gdp if it wasn't if for our money. this is not a country that is rich with natural resources or a strong education system. this is not a country that was
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ever prepared to stand on its own without america propping it up. so this is going to be some -- there's going to be some bloodshed, of course, there will be civil strife between the factions within afghanistan. i think the military's strongest argument over the years about staying there was really as much about pakistan as it was afghanistan. people need to remember pakistan has nuclear weapons. and pakistan is -- there are elements of the taliban and other bad guys that have migrated into pakistan, so this is always going to be a sticky wicket in terms of this part of world because of the factions of strong religious beliefs in the middle east. but i have always said we have wasted just a ton of money in afghanistan trying to do something that the military just didn't want to admit they couldn't do.
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>> i guess this is -- again, we're all, i think, going to have differences of opinion here. but i think the men and women that served over there did great things over the past 20 years. and sacrificed greatly, and they prevented another attack on the united states. that's why we went in there in the first place. they did the best they could do with a country that is dexter told us well over a decade ago, was many parts of it seemed like it was still stuck in the second century and i guess the question is, and this is a question for foreign policy experts and for advisers to presidents to debate, and members in the senate and the house to debate. but is the united states capable of keeping 2,500, 3,000, 4,000,
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troops in afghanistan if that prevents a complete meltdown of a country that was actually used to launch the attacks on america on september 11th. the same thing, claire, could be asked again about iraq. would it have been worth it for us to keep 25, 3,000, 4,000 troops in iraq to prevent the rise of isis. should we have left 3,000 troops in syria to continue to hold up our kurdish allies and push back turkey, push back isis, push back putin, push back assad and push back iran as those troops were doing. this is not a leading question. but this is just -- this is a question to ask if america is not capable ofoing that, what
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exactly are we capable of doing? >> well, this is -- first of all, let me say very clearly the men and women who served in afghanistan, i was honored to be able to go there and tell them in person that they had done an amazing job under the most difficult of circumstances. and there's good news/bad news about our military. our military is a can do military. you give our military a mission and they are going to try to execute that mission. they are not going to ever say we can't do it. so, of course, they always took the posture, we need to stay, we need to do this, this is important. but i could make an argument, joe, there are a lot of countries around the globe that need those 3, 4, 5,000 troops not just iraq, not just afghanistan. i mean, look at yemen and obviously syria and all of these countries where you have terrible internal problems. and i i guess it comes down to a
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decision, are we going to be the boots on the ground to police internal conflicts in countries around the globe? i say the answer is yes if it's very clear it's serving our interest. i just don't think it's as clear right now that all those troops in afghanistan are really serving our interest. >> we're having this conversation two months ahead of the 20th anniversary of 9/11, which prompted u.s. troops to go into afghanistan in the first place. we'll continue to talk about this morning. also ahead on "morning joe," the latest for the continued search for survivors in florida. and president biden's message to families impacted by the tragedy. plus concerning new numbers from the cdc about rising coronavirus cases across the country due to the delta variant and those still unvaccinated. we'll talk to former fda commissioner, dr. scott gottlieb this morning.
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also this morning adam schiff will be our guest, he was appointed to the select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the morning capitol. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. welcome to allstate. here, if you already pay for car insurance, you can take your home along for the ride. allstate. better protection costs a whole lot less. click or call to bundle today. better protection costs a whole lot less. this is cynthia suarez, cfo of go-go foodco., an online food delivery service. business was steady, until... gogo-foodco. go check it out. whaatt?! overnight, users tripled. which meant hiring 20 new employees and buying 20 new laptops. so she used her american express business card,
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yesterday house democrats made their picks for the select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the united states capitol. house speaker nancy pelosi choice republican congresswoman liz cheney to join the committee. here's her response. >> are you concerned about getting reprimanded and possibly losing your committee
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assignments over this? >> listen, i think it's clear to all the people on this committee that our oath to the constitution, our duty, our dedication to the rule of law, the peaceful transfer of power has to come above any concern about bipartisanship or politics. >> three sources tell nbc news before the announcement, house minority leader kevin mccarthy threatened to strip republican members of their existing committee assignments if they accepted an appointment from speaker pelosi. here's his response yesterday. >> i'm not making any threats about committee assignments but you know how congress works. i was shocked that she would accept something from speaker pelosi. it would seem to me, since i didn't hear from her, maybe she's closer to her than us. i don't know. >> meanwhile, republican congressman, adam kinzinger of illinois who along with liz
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cheney were the only two republicans to vote for the select committee responded to mccarthy's reported threat with this quote, who gives a bleep from adam kinzinger there, joe. it appears kevin mccarthy is more concerned about not showing allegiance or working together with democrats and nancy pelosi than getting to the bottom of what happened here. >> yeah. adam kinzinger, i think his views are probably shared by a lot of conservatives who actually are concerned about january the 6th. a lot of conservatives who remember kevin mccarthy getting on the floor and saying that donald trump bore responsibility in part for what happened on january the 6th. conservatives remember -- true conservatives, of course, not trump cult members but true conservatives remember kevin mccarthy getting on the phone and screaming at donald trump, begging for help, begging for
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assistance on january the 6th when congress was being overrun, when republicans members who now deny anything ever happened that was untoward were actually helping police officers barricade the house chamber against the mob. conservatives remember mccarthy bragging to other members in his own delegation that he shouted at trump within swore at him and asked who the blank do you think you're talking to when donald trump tried lying to him saying it was antifa that was responsible for those attacks. true conservatives remember it was actually kevin mccarthy who told the president that it was trump supporters who were doing this. so yeah, it's a good point. also, liz cheney's lifetime conservative rating well up in the '90s.
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she's more of a conservative than kevin mccarthy ever was, or will ever be. so this goes down to the fact that you have one woman, one woman that was in leadership who is actually standing up and doing the sort of thing that margaret thatcher would have done in 1975. that ronald reagan would have done in 1976. that true conservatives have done throughout history, standing up to fat, bloated, elements of their corrupt, dying party. and i suspect -- we'll see how it plays out with liz cheney. we'll see if it plays out the same way it played with thatcher when she took control of the conservative party in britain in '75 or reagan when he challenged the republican establishment in 1976. i hope it does. i suspect it might, but jonathan
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lemire, only time will tell we find ourselves right now in what is probably the final stages of trumpism, which may last a few more years, god save us all. but no doubt about it, kevin mccarthy is not only going against liz cheney, not only going against adam kinzinger, not only going against police officers who were beaten and bludgeoned with american flags on january the 6th, but he's also going against himself. he's also undercutting his own words. he's also making a fool of himself acting as if we don't have video of him blaming donald trump for the insurrection on january the 6th. >> and let's remember, joe we're now in a matter of days approaching the six month anniversary of the capitol riot on january 6th and still the investigation hasn't started
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because of politics, delays, the republicans in the senate scuttled what would have been the bipartisan commission into the probe so instead we have the select committee formed by house speaker nancy pelosi, and we'll see in the coming days which republicans mccarthy wants to put on it, if they are more moderates perhaps to play it down the middle or more that line up with what mccarthy is saying publicly which is different than what he said six months ago privately. there is new video coming out with how deadly that day was. "the new york times" has a 40 minute video that i encourage everyone to watch. the question will be indeed how much longer is trumpism with us. i don't think it's going away just yet certainly not the next couple election cycles and that seems to shadow everything the
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republican party is doing and mccarthy and others refuse to defy him and not give the select committee the independence that it needs in other words to get to the bottom of what happened and hold those responsible. >> let's make sure we speak in the clearest terms because things move so quickly these days surrounding january the 6th and other events with big lies being spread by the day. let's be clear about what's going on here. kevin mccarthy, other republicans, they blocked a vote for an independent investigation, a bipartisan independent investigation that joe manchin was pushing hard for, pushing republican senators to support. they were against that. now they're against this investigation, which, of course, they say is partisan after, of course, they said no to the
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bipartisan commission. so what they're telling us with their actions, their words, their deeds is very clearly they will do anything to turn the page. they will do anything to continue spreading the lies, continue downplaying just how dangerous january the 6th was to this constitutional republic. >> joe, i have one word. benghazi. benghazi had, in the house alone, six investigations, including a select committee. and it was -- if you compare and contrast, i don't want to minimize the loss of life in benghazi or the problems around the security of those locations. i don't want to minimize that. but let's compare and contrast those two events. and which is more foundation shaking to our democracy.
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the fact that the heart of our government was attacked and that these people were beating police officers -- americans were beating police officers at the heart of our government trying to protect the members -- elected members of our democracy that carry out the functions of that democracy, it is astounding to me that these same people who pounded the podium for years on benghazi, for years are saying no. it was obvious they were doing it to hurt hillary clinton's numbers. it was a bold political move. this doesn't have to be. they're making it political by refusing to come together and do what most americans want, and
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that is find out what trump did, why he didn't do more. why the pentagon wasn't ready. all the questions that still remain unanswered. >> republicans moved from whitewashing what happened on january 6th to pretending it didn't happen all together. coming up the supreme court hands down a ruling on voting rights which could have implications for ongoing debates. plus a republican lawmaker in michigan spent eight months looking for election fraud and comes up with nothing. that's next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪ you've got the looks ♪ ♪ let's make lots of money ♪ ♪ you've got the brawn ♪ ♪ i've got the brains... ♪ with allstate, drivers who switched saved over $700 click or call to switch ray loves vacations.
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we try to make it clear that there's obviously, from all the signs, all the facts, all the deductions we can make, there's no evidence that there is some
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sort of organized or widespread effort to defraud the election. we saw chaos, confusion, that only just heightened all of the attention and the misunderstandings that were going on, the distrust. so my report really kind of tries to express just the spiraling out of control that happened there at times. and there's plenty of blame to point in both partis' directions but i just find it particularly troubling to me and it was something i really wanted to show in this report that my party, some people within it, some people representing it, made this critical mistake in judgment, and it caused more harm than good. >> last month the michigan senate oversight committee released a report on the 2020 election saying it, quote, found no evidence of widespread or
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systemic fraud in michigan's prosecution of the 2020 election. the committee chaired by republican state senator ed mcbroom released the report after conducting nearly 40 hours of testimony. former president donald trump called the report a, quote, cover up an attempt to hide the truth. tim alberta profiled senator mcbroom in his latest piece entitled, the senator who decided to tell the truth. and also joining us is jonathan swan. tim you wrote, his committee interviewed scores of witnesses, subpoenaed and reviewed thousands of pages of documents, dissected the procedural mechanics of michigan's highly decentralized elections system. mcbroom's conclusion hit lancing
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like a meteor. saying i can't make people believe me i can only hope they look at the facts i laid out for them and then look at the theories out there and ask the question, does any of this make sense. it is a fascinating and important piece, tim. let's take a step back and talk about senator mcbroom himself, who he is where he is on the political spectrum and why he thought it important to take the eight months to develop this report. >> it's interesting, this is a guy who has a lot of credibility with republicans, with conservatives not only in his caucus but in his district up in the upper peninsula of michigan. he's a dairy farmer by trade, he still operates his family's 100-year-old dairy farm. this is a guy who's a conservative's conservative.
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he got into politics on the issue of abortion, wanting to protect farmers. this is someone who voted for donald trump, talked to me how happy he was with the policy outcomes of the trump administration and how he was worried about the early days of the biden administration. so this is not a rhino, somebody soft attempting to undermine trump from his own party. this is a guy, at the same time, willie, who's known as sort of a choir boy, literally he directs his church choir up in the upper peninsula. when you talk to colleagues of his, there was always a sense if anybody was going to shoot straight on this issue, pull no punches, get to the bottom of this and tell the truth, no matter how inconvenient it may be, then ed mcbroom was going to be that guy.
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and there was some nervousness when he took on this investigation because a lot of republicans knew he might not broadcast exactly what they were hoping he would. >> so, tim, i guess the question now is, is the choir boy, dairy farmer going to be censored from the party, driven from the ranks, primaried, are there already protests against him for actually telling the plain and obvious truth? the same truth that william barr said when he was asked to investigate these claims, the same truth that rudy giuliani was forced to say when he finally got in federal court and said, no, your honor, this is not a fraud case. the truth time and again that republicans went under oath and even trump's own attorneys had to tell judges, no, there's no widespread voter fraud. is he going to now get thrashed politically for telling the truth? >> joe, he'll be thrashed
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politically. he's already being thrashed politically, starting in his own district. this is a guy who represents a very conservative part of the state of michigan and he's dealing with constituents and family friends, people he's known his entire life who are attacking him, telling him he's been bought off by china, he is in league with the deep state. and frankly, a censoring from his own party is sort of pretty low on his list of concerns right now. while we talked, he was nodding in the direction of his rifle cabinet in his house talking to me about the calls in the middle of the night threatening him and his family. so i don't know that this is a guy who's nearly as concerned about some of the political ramifications, sort of in the abstract as he is about what might happen when the people who are so convinced that this election was stolen and who believe that there is an
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illegitimate democrat in office right now and they are approaching the brink of civil war, which he and i talked about in the piece. he talked about people he's encountered in his district talking about it's time to rise up. it's time, perhaps for a legitimate civil conflict here. those are the things that senator mcbroom talked to me about that are really urgent for him. i don't know that he's terribly concerned about being stripped of a committee assignment or punished by politicians in lancing. he's term limited, only be there a couple more years anyway. he's more worried about where this is taking all of us in this country, his community, the people he feels are lost permanently to these conspiracy theories. >> they are conspiracy theories. i get people sending me conspiracy theories from chinese cults and websites that they've
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set up. it is really something jonathan swan, though, that whenever any of these lies are exposed to the light of day, they wither immediately. rudy giuliani held conferences outside of courthouses there's widespread fraud. and then they would go inside courthouses and giuliani would be asked by a judge, specifically, u.s. district judge, matthew brand, giuliani admitted this is not a fraud case. trump lawyers saying the same thing. this is in arizona, are you saying that there's any fraud in connection to these disputed ballots, to my knowledge, at present, no, said the lawyer. the lawsuit was convinced. time and again, trump pr flacks and giuliani would allege fraud outside of courthouses. they would go inside of courthouses and then they'd say no fraud, your honor, because they knew they couldn't lie in
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if front of a federal judge. and here you have somebody that's investigated this for months and months and in the light of day, the conspiracy claims that russians and chinese religious cults like to spread in america, they wither in sunlight. >> this is what tim alberta does better than almost anyone i can think of. not only is it well written, but he chose the perfect person through which to tell the story. we often think about how do we tell the story? it's such an important story in the country right now. and ed mcbroom, tim laid out his bona fide, obviously he's a true conservative and a christian. but he's also someone who genuinely seemed open to wanting to find out what happened. he wasn't someone that came in
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with a preconception. and he's also somebody that you can actually see -- these are the people at the local level who are really affected by what donald trump did. because it -- the threats are real. i talked to people who feel under threat in these situations. they feel physically under threat. they feel their lives are under threat for doing their jobs. i just can't over state that enough. it's really common. you hear this all the time for the people who are in these positions standing up. i did pretty extensive reporting on this period of time, and it was the most exasperaing experience because you would talk to trump aides and the ones who were perpetuating these theories, which were not all of them, it was like whack a mole, you would debunk one thing and they would say what about the ballots under the bridge found in the box under the -- you on look at that, that's nonsense come back to them, what about this and what about that.
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and ultimately you get to the end of this and you realize this is done in completely bad faith and there's actually no way to argue against this in a rational fashion. >> you know, jonathan, that's actually -- i always talk about friends and family members that send conspiracy theories they say, what about this, and you show them election returns and what they've been repeating for six months is a complete and total lie and they go oh, what about that. then you whack that mole. then what about the vaccine. then you whack that mole. oh, what about -- and the conspiracy theory is always bouncing and it never stops. you give them facts -- by the way, something they could find out by spending five minutes on the google machine. five minutes. but instead, they act stupid. like they've never heard of google before, and like they
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couldn't look up the actual election returns from wisconsin or michigan or florida or you name the state. and this feigned ignorance. this feigned ignorance is so maddening. especially when it's coming from p people with advanced degrees. but jonathan, as you say, that's the tactic, isn'tit? it's just keep spreading the lies hoping you never catch up with the last lie and you never will because they always create new lies, the russians always create new lies, the chinese cult websites always create new lies, so it is a constant conspiracy thread that you're trying to get to the end of. >> where it gets really sad, it's not -- it's not always -- or even if it's not -- often i would say if you took the macro level as cynical as that. there are a lot of people who are good people, genuinely good
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people who believe this. it's the elected leaders, it's donald trump and people who have told them this who, you know, i reported back in january that sidney powell would call into the oval office, donald trump would put her on mute and mock her as crazy to people in the room. so the level of cynicism to do that and then endorse her completely unhinged theories about hacked voting machines. that's the part of this, and there are millions of people out there who are good, god fearing people who have been led to believe this. if you believe the other party stole the election, you believe that this is -- you know, it would be the biggest crime ever committed and you could see how that could inspire somebody to be furious, to, you know, want to take action. it's just so disturbing. and tim's piece, it's just the perfect lens through which to
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look at this. i really encourage everyone to read it. >> and i do as well. but willie, these are, in fact, so many of them good, god fearing people, raised with values and a love for their country that they've had for decades. but make no mistake of it, so many of these good, god fearing people, are choosing to be ignorant. are choosing not to do the research themselves. are choosing to read a tweet and repeat it. are choosing to believe websites that are put out by chinese cults, to spread disinformation in america. and they are choosing to believe that instead of just going and looking at the facts. looking -- in fact, go to "the washington journal," go to
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murdoch's "the washington journal," go to murdoch's fox news, go to murdoch's post, look at their theories of these, look at the things still up on their websites if if you don't want to read "the new york times" or don't believe the associated press or believe a chinese cult more than the ap or "reuters," go to murdoch's sites and you will find the same thing but there is an active choice by these good people to believe the lies instead of seek the truth. >> joe, you and i have talked about this. i have smart people who i respect and many cases i love, come to me and ask why we don't talk about italian satellites impacting voting machines and things like that. are you serious? that's a click away to find the information. but it lines up with something
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they want to believe. and yes, the leadership has been terrible on this from the top, from donald trump down perpetuating these lies. but in this age of information, there's a lot of bad information there, but the truth is there if you want to find it. tim alberta that leads me to my last question for you. you write these profile pieces, study deeply, look at the country, there are so many people in america, tens of millions of them receptive to these ideas that there's conspiracies at work, in this case keeping donald trump from the white house. what is your sense of how this country can turn it around? does trumpism stay with us forever in many corners of the country? >> it's such an important question and i wish i had a good answer for it. i do think that foundational to this dilemma, if you want to call it a dilemma, is the failure, the unwillingness of
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elected officials to tell their constituents something they do not want to hear. that's what ed mcbroom was willing to do here. he represents an incredibly conservative part of the state of michigan and he knows that his constituents wanted him to find vote erfraud. wanted him to report that dead people were casting ballots wanting him to find that precincts were out of balance and there needs to be a forensic audit, whatever that means. they wanted him to broadcast to the world that something went terribly wrong in michigan's election. and ed mcbroom understands that at great professional and personal cost he instead needed to tell them a very hard truth and a truth that was going to make him very unpopular, a truth that was probably going to wind up severing some life long rains he has had and that is going to hurt him and his family.
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and that's okay he told me because the truth is really important. if you look back to january 6th and think back between the two month period, november 6th to january 6th, think about how much carnage may have been avoided if elected republicans were willing to stand up and tell their constituents what the county clerks and elected officials in their states, many of them republicans, guys we dove into this, recounted, looked at every angle of this and it's all a bunch of baloney, there was no fraud. if those officials had been willing to come ut and tell their constituents that truth at the same time, sure it may have been difficult, ugly, but how much of this craziness might they have been able to prevent in i think that's really the shame in all of this, it could have -- they could have stopped a lot of this before it got much
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worse and now we're at the point where the genie is really out of the bottle and there's no telling what can be done to prevent this from getting worse, uglier moving forward. >> and so many politicians you're talking about put it back on their constituents, on their voters, and say they have questions we have to honor and respect the questions they have about the 2020 election. let's close this segment by repeating the quote from senator mcbroom, i can't make people believe me i just hope they look at their discernment and judgment to look at the facts as i laid them out and look at the theories out there and ask the question, does this make any sense. the piece is online for the atlantic, tim alberta, thank you. jonathan swan, thank you. we're a few minutes past the top of the hour. joining the conversation msnbc and national affairs analyst and
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host of the hell and high water podcast from the recount john heileman. great to have you back with us my friend. let's start with the trump organization and chief financial officer, allen weisselberg indicted yesterday in what was called a 15 year scheme helping to avoid taxes by paying off the books. in addition to tax fraud, the trump organization is charged with falsifying business records by keeping an internal set of books with employee gifts and omitting those gifts from tax documents. the indictment alleges the unreported compensation to allen weisselberg included apartments, private school tuition, car lease payments and furnishings for his home. two other trump executives also received substantial under the table compensation. weisselberg is accused of avoiding tax payments on
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$1.7 million of his income and faces the serious charge of grand larceny that carries a 5 to 15 year sentence charge. the next court appearance is on september 20th, joe. >> john heileman, how much of a threat is this to the trump organization and donald trump specifically? >> well, i think, joe, there's a couple different questions. one is, there's the, what now happens with this investigation? and the reporting now out of the investigation itself is that, you know, the prosecutors are making very clear this is the first stage of an ongoing investigation and that the next phase of the investigation turns itself more directly to donald trump than what we've currently seen, so there's a question about whether weisselberg ends up flipping when it starts to get more serious for him, looking like he's facing jail time, will he become a cooperator, we've seen it before, michael cohen saying he'd take a bullet for donald trump and then facing jail time
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and no, now that i'm looking at jail time i'm going to help prosecutors. what's one question. what's donald trump's legal jeopardy. really the case is much more serious than it had been portrayed prior to its unveiling. there was this attempt to spin by the president and others, this is just corporate perks. little bookkeeping slight of hand. no. what we saw yesterday in the indictment was, this is a massive serious tax fraud case, in which the company was apparently keeping essentially separate books. these are not perks getting paid and taxes not appropriately paid. this is millions of dollars of compensation in a large scale organization wide scheme to evade federal taxes, state taxes and city taxes. so the case itself is much more serious, it's raised a lot of questions. if allen weisselberg was keeping a separate set of books for allen weisselberg is it possible that he wasn't keeping a separate set of books for donald
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trump's children, that's a good question. we don't know the answer yet but that's one way in which the trump family could be implicated going forward. there's the other larger question, i pointed to it this morning. an important thread yesterday on twitter, look here's the real threat to the company. put the legal thing aside. if they have been keeping a separate set of books, they're in violation of loan cov nance. all of the loans that the trump organization has. and they're a highly leveraged business like a lot of real estate businesses. on the 12th count of the indictment it says they're charging weisselberg with that, falsifying the company records and if that's true and proven they're in violation of every loan covenant they have. that could bring about the end of the company if all of those loans are breached and banks
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decide to say we're calling in our loans, pay them back. the company can't. that looks like a threat to the business itself, aside from the legal threat that donald trump and his family might face in the investigation going forward. >> let's bring in some legal experts to the conversation. former chief assistant district attorney, daniel alonzo, he's an msnbc legal analyst. also with us state attorney for palm beach county david aaronburg. dave i'll start with you. based on what you saw yesterday, how much trouble is the trump organization in? >> i think what we heard is an excellent analysis even on the legal implications. these are serious charges, much more serious than what we had heard in the last week. i was surprised myself because ordinarily state tax charges while they're serious, they usually only count the loss to
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the state or city, which is usually in the 9% range of the evaded amount, here $1.7 million, but this case was brilliant. they included the loss to the irs, which is a 15 year count to defraud not just new york city, allen weisselberg's residence is in new york city so a big deal but also the state and saying you are defrauding the federal government by paying this compensation off the books, which is what this is. that's a big deal. it means it's a case where the judge will be presented with a $900,000 tax loss which is a very big deal and much greater than the 100,000 so the chances, i think, of conviction are pretty strong if what we see in the indictment can be backed up. and it's likely that it can. it looks like they brought these charges largely based on documentary evidence that can't
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be attacked in terms of credibility. so it's a strong case and is a problem for mr. weisselberg for sure because it feels like a jail case in the parlance of that courthouse and also for the trump organization. >> dave aaronburg, as an active prosecutor as you look at the charges, what stands out to you? >> good morning, joe. i know you're a baseball guy. what stands out to me is that we're in the early innings and these charges are serious but i think they also serve as building blocks to charge higher ups at the trump organization and possibly trump himself. i know people are saying they're doing this to twist the arm of allen weisselberg to flip, yes. but the charges are serious, the facts are clear in the indictment set forth. so the prosecutors are not going to bring this unless they have a reasonable likelihood of getting a conviction beyond any reasonable doubt. the fact this could turn
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weisselberg's arm to flipping is a bonus here. before yesterday it was easy for weisselberg to thumb his nose at state prosecutors because he was a free man. now weisselberg has the memory of that pulled, unyielding pair of handcuffs around his wrist. that's a way of changing someone's perspective. i think the question is whether weisselberg flips before or after trump throws him overboard like he did with michael cohen. because weisselberg will flip when he fears prosecutors and prison more than trump himself. but he better start making that decision soon because the first one to the table, in prosecutor terms, get to eat and the last one to the table becomes dinner. >> let me get you to pivot forward a little bit here. there's obviously been great interest in this case and particularly where it goes and if those implicated could eventually by former president trump or his adult sons, eric and don junior, who were running
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the business while their father was in office. what's your sense based on what we learned yesterday from these charges, and again, whether weisselberg cooperates or not is an open question, but what else may be coming whether it's from the city, the attorney general, what other legal peril could trump and the trump organization face in the months ahead or do we think this is potentially the extent of it? >> we just don't know but what we do know is they are definitely still investigating they made it clear in court yesterday. what they're looking at, no secret, based on the testimony that michael cohen gave before congress about the accounting frauds relating to different valuations for banks and tax authorities. in terms of what we learned yesterday about what else they might be looking at, it's clear they didn't just do this kind of thing for allen weisselberg, right. the indictment itself alleges that it -- that this kind of
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compensation was paid off the books for at least two other people and maybe more. we don't know. so no doubt they'll be looking to expand those charges, perhaps bring in those other people, either as defendants or to try to get their cooperation, perhaps immunize them for their testimony to build up the chain as we just heard. so i think it's really twofold trying to make the bigger case, which they're still trying to do and we don't know how far along they are on that. then there's this substantial case where they have substantial evidence and no doubt they want to shore that up and perhaps bring in other defendants who got these off the books payments. >> dave aaronburg if you're running this case, what's next? >> the key, joe, is to try to talk to weisselberg about flipping. remember the prosecutors in p manhattan set out on a three-year investigation that went to the u.s. supreme court not once but twice to get
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trump's taxes. that was on the inflation of properties to get greater loans from lending institutions at the same time to downplay the values of your properties for tax returns. that was the original investigation here, along with payments of stormy daniels. so you don't want to let that go, you want to keep pursuing that and try to get allen weisselberg to flip. you want to remind him that jurors hate rich defendants who evade taxes, especially those who get large tax refunds they're not entitled to, like allen weisselberg did. because when that happens that tax burden has to fall on someone and it falls on law abiding citizens like the type of people who serve on jurors. so you want to remind allen weisselberg of that. you want to keep the investigations doing full speed ahead and i think ultimately weisselberg will flip on his long-time boss and so there's a lot of trouble ahead for weisselberg and what's referred to in the indictment as
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un-indicted co-coupon or the number one, that sounds a lot like donald trump himself. >> weisselberg has worked for donald trump most of his adult life we'll see how far that loyalty goes. coming up, we'll look at the supreme court decision on arizona's voting rights. plus house intelligence committee chairman adam schiff will be our guest. but first, jim clyburn of south carolina is standing by. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪that you laughed about♪ ♪well, the names have all changed♪ ♪since you hung around♪ welcome back, america. it sure is good to see you.
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the supreme court handed down a major ruling on voting rights yesterday one that civil liberties groups say will make it harder to challenge the dozens rf restrictions being
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passed by republican legislatures across the country. justice correspondent pete williams has the details. >> reporter: in a major test of the landmark voting rights act the court took up restrictions in arizona one allowing states to throw out votes cast in the wrong precincts and another said only family members or care givers could turn in mail in votings. the court upheld the restrictions. the majority opinion said all voting laws impose some burden and they don't cross the line even if they create small disparities in voting as long as the state has some justification for them. but in a blistering decent, the court ignores that voter discrimination is getting worse it weakens the voting rights act, something that stands as a momentum to the greatest.
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and new voting restrictions recently passed in nearly 20 states. >> there's really not much left all of the major tools have been significantly weakened or eliminated. >> let's bring in member of the house democratic leadership, majority whip james clyburn of south carolina. i was going to say jim, they have james in the prompter, i've never known you as james. let's talk about the supreme court decision that wasn't much of a surprise given how the roberts court has ruled on state regulations of voting. but what's the remedy to it? can democrats get together and figure out a way to pass the voting rights bill that obviously jon lewis and you and so many others have championed for so long? >> thank you very much for having me, joe.
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i'll call you joseph. it's just another indication of why congress needs to act. roberts said to us he thought things were outdated we should update that formula and we are doing that. i think that we ought to go back to the senate get a bill passed. this is an indication that we should. and i've been advocaing for some time now the so-called preclearance portion of hr-4 could very well be folded into s-1 and s-1 would then be exactly what we need to move forward. and i would hope that the senate would do that. >> and so, are there -- do you have any intel that they may be moving closer to that? of course, you are right, chief
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justice roberts said several years ago that congress needed to step forward and update the voting rights act. isn't this something that can unite all 50 democrats in the senate? >> i think so. but i think we needed something like this in order for some of my friends in the senate to understand how egregious these laws are. how do you say to a person who moved into another precinct, and you don't think about going down and changing your voter registration, you present your license, it's different from your address and then all of a sudden your vote gets thrown out. not even a provisional ballot. here in south carolina, we let you vote provisionally until we find out who you are. so i think the senate needs to take a hard look at this decision and then update its thinking on whether or not we should move forward with hr-1.
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hr-1 is more critical today than it was two days ago. >> and we're going to continue talking about this supreme court ruling in a minute, but jim i want to move to the midterms coming up next year. you made news earlier this week when you endorsed a candidate running against a bernie sanders backed candidate. and you said, in doing so, you're just really focused on getting the most electable candidates in there. so well, the democrats can maintain control of the majority. talk about that. >> well, you know, joe, i often get people telling me who is progressive, who is not a progressive, who's a liberal, who's a conservative. my father was one of the most conservative people i ever met but he was a minister. he never asked his congregation
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to give conservatively, he asked them to give liberally. this idea of balancing this, we have to know that sometimes you are conservative, sometimes you are liberal, it all depends on what the issues are. so we've got to get candidates that can really appeal to the american people on a broad basis and i support people that i worked with, and i do believe that the young lady there, chantel brown, in ohio, i think that she's an outstanding candidate. she asked for my support and i gave it. >> gene robinson is with us and has a question for you, jim. gene? >> jim, let's talk a bit about the slim majority in the house that democrats have right now. you know, historically, democrats stand to lose seats in the midterm election.
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how do you intend to buck history? if, indeed, you can next year, and what makes you think you can do that? >> well, you know, you know that i always say that anything has happened before can happen again. we've bucked history before, you may recall. it was our performance against newt gingrich that ran him out of power. we plan to do the same thing next year as it relates to next year's elections. we -- you know, i do believe you're going to have good candidates. we have a lot of good candidates. i just endorsed one. and i think that we are going to hold onto our majority in the house and i think we're going to increase our numbers in the senate because we have good candidates that can run the kind of campaign that meets with the acceptance of the vast majority
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of the american people and i think we'll do well. >> jim, this weekend, obviously we're going to be celebrating as a nation the fourth of july. and you have given so much of your life to this country and to actually -- and you have fought hard and suffered and kept fighting to make sure that this country moved closer to the promises of the declaration of independence. you and gene both from south carolina, both of you in different stages saw the sting of segregation. i'm just curious, with the last year behind us and with us looking at some of the challenges that are in front of us, what are your thoughts, what will you be thinking? how will you be celebrating the fourth of july this weekend? >> i'm going to celebrate it very quietly with friends and do it on the fourth.
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i have already organized the day for sunday as to how i'm going to celebrate. but i'm also going to be reflecting on what this country is all about. i said time and time again, this is a great country. it's not in need of being made great. it is great. what we've got to do is make this country's greatness accessible and affordable for all of its citizens and that's what i'm trying to do every day. on january 6th, this country was under threat of going down the tubes. we survived january 6th. but the question is, can we sustain that survival? and that now is being put to the test. that's why i'm pleased to see nancy pelosi appoint this committee to get to the bottom of not just what happened on january 6th, but why did that
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happen? who were the players in all of this. we've seen, what, 500 arrests or near 500 arrests. we need to find out exactly what motivated these people, who was behind all of this, who was funding this insurrection. this, we got to get to the bottom of or we run the risk of losing this country. our great country, tested and we have to make sure that we can pass the test. rome didn't. i think we should. and i think we can. >> well said, congressman. it's willie geist. many people want to know what happened on january 6th. we've been talking about "the new york times" video journal, 40 minutes, that shows what happened that day. yet so many republican colleagues want to turn away and not look at what happened on january 6th because what it
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might say about them to the least or what it says about the man they followed to the ends of the earth. what do you say to your republican colleagues, many who you respect and respect you, what do you say to them about the importance of looking at january 6th? >> i say to them, those of us who think about the future, who think about our children, grandchildren and other children similarly situated. we would think of what our parents left for us and whether or not we're going to be good stewards and whether or not we're going to lay the foundations necessary for our children and grandchildren to continue this pursuit for perfection. that's what this country is all about. we are in pursuit of a more perfect union. we aren't perfect, we'll never be perfect, but we must always be in pursuit of that perfection. our hope is made significant
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sacrifices for us. every time i think about what my parents went through and look at my children and my grandchildren, i see in them the responsibility that i have for the future. so i say to my colleagues, just they about what you want your children and grandchildren to have 25, 50 years from now, and conduct yourself accordingly. i do not believet any of them would want to see their children confront what we confronted on january 6th. and the only way you get beyond that is to find out why. find out how. and find out who. and then let's move forward. >> congressman jim clyburn, as a son of the south i thank and as an american i thank you and as a friend let me say every day i'm so proud of all you've done to make your children and
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grandchildrens' futures brighter and mine and everybody else's brighter. thank you so much and thank you for being with us today. >> thank you very much for having me. >> all right. gene robinson, thank you for being with us as well. and john heileman, let's talk about the fourth. as we go into this fourth of july weekend we look at what's happened in washington this past week and we still see a republican party, certainly -- well, in the house and the senate, that do not want americans to see the truth. do not want them to know the truth about what happened on january the 6th. they wanted us to forget it. now they're trying to whitewash it and the last thing they want want is for americans to see that fourth of july video essay that was so shocking, even after six months.
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>> yeah. i was watching it yesterday, joe. we were talking about it offline, it's one of the most -- again, my hat is off often to "the new york times" but, boy, knowing what it took for their visual investigations team, six months of putting together what right now is the definitive video record of what happened on january 6th, it's really essential viewing i think for anybody who wants to understand what happened that day, because they took the time, pulled together footage, audio that no one has really ever pulled together, comprehensively the way they did and added the times, very clear graphics to give you a sense moving through time what was happening in the capitol at any given moment. you really have a 360 view of what happened that day. and what's important i think about it, in addition to it being shocking and incredibly upsetting to ch watch it and there's things you will not have
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seen in there, including the shooting of ashley bobbit, there's things i had not seen before, it's incredibly unnerving and disturbing, making it the more essential to watch. but really the thing that's so important politically about it, what it says about this moment, it makes clear that the answer to the question of was this an organized conspiracy theory or was it just a bunch of trump supporters that got out of hand was a false binary. and what happened was the toxic mingling of provok tors who came there to commit an act of treason and violence against elected officials, and trump followers of varying kinds who were there not in a peaceful spirit but who necessarily weren't part of a plan but these
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provoktors got them stirred up and they got swept up in it, that is where we are right now in the country. it's that combination of, as you guys were talking earlier with tim alberta, there's this thing out in the country where people have become over time and with the help of that -- not the help but the trump they become more prone to believing conspiracies. they are out there and they are shapeable, they are modable, by those who wish to do the country harm. donald trump is the most prom independent of them. we talk about the proud boys, the oath keepers. it's that mingling of the larger sentiment with those who want to, effectively, tear the counted down. and you see it on january 6th and that's the threat we face going forward. it's the two things together, the video makes it clear how that exploded on january 6th. but that is the challenge that the country has going forward is how to get its arms around the
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fact that there are tens of millions of people who are willing to be mislead and then there are very powerful forces, some of them out on the far right, who is ar willing to take advantage of that willingnessing to misled for its own purposes. and the republican party not wanting to help get to the truth suggest that they are complicit in a lot of this and i think it's now a generational challenge for the country to try to get past this and one of the starting points is to watch this video and understand what happened that day. >> in that video you'll see the 45th president of the united states time and again pushing, pushing for this insurrection. you'll also see the 45th president of the united states in a presidential debate when asked to speak out against the proud boys instead told them, stand back and stand by.
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that's exactly what they did. and look at the video and you'll see that in a little over two months they took the president at his word and charged the capitol, along with other groups that wanted to stop a constitutional process and committed sedition in the process. john heileman, as always thank you so much for being with us. let's talk a little bit more about the supreme court session that just ended and bring in nina totenberg. there were so many parts of the session that were fascinating to me. i look at the philly case regarding same sex adoption, could have been a blister 5-4 opinion, instead amy coney barrett and kavanaugh decided to follow chief justice roberts. it was a more muted, unanimous opinion, you could find other evidence of that throughout the term, but, of course, yesterday
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a 6-3 split the type of 6-3 split many people feared when amy coney barrett was confirmed. let's talk about yesterday's case first and if it was a surprise to you and then go over the entire term. what did you think? >> i think this is a sort of getting to know you term. you have three trump appointees appointed in the last three years, really. three and a half years. and there we are with a relatively younger, new court, six conservatives of varying starts but all very conservative and they're sort of feeling each other out. i had the sense while my colleagues were oh, look, it's much less conservative than we thought and they can find common ground. i had the sense all during the term they're driving a conservative car and they're just in the first year.
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we haven't seen what it's like when they move into second, third, and fourth gear. you're going to see a court that's considerably more conservative than this country has seen in many, many, many decades. probably back -- ultimately back to the 1930s. and the voting cases and the disclosure case yesterday about disclosing large donors to nonprofits, those cases i think are an indication of where we're going and we're going to see something very much more conservative. >> looking at where we are and where we've been so far, there's gorsuch, who's legal defining of the word sex actually gave the lgbtq community perhaps their greatest legal victory last term. this term we had, once again, two republican and conservatives
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co consternation, the roberts court once again saving the affordable care act in a way that drove justice alito up the wall. what accounted for those two rulings, which are two of the more fascinating rulings so far this year? >> well, i really don't know, a smart conservative scholar who thought they wouldn't uphold the aca. this was the third challenge. it was in the view of very conservative people a sort of frivolous challenge and the fact it got any traction at all in the lower courts was a surprise to a lot of people. so that didn't surprise me at all. the philadelphia case did somewhat surprise me because this is a court that is very big on the free exercise of religious clause and i expect the court will expand that more
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and more, but they held their fire in the philadelphia case, they ruled for the catholic charity that wanted to be able to not screen lgbt couples and had a contract with the city to say you can't discriminate. so we've gone from a period of time where the court was very much active with the separation of church and state to a church that's an advocate of the free exercise of religion clause of the constitution. and that's going to provide clashes. ironically, this was a case in which conservatives of a certain stripe wanted to overturn an opinion by justice scalia, a conservative icon who wrote an important opinion years and years ago that said, a law is generally applicable and mutually applied we don't come in and say it's unconstitutional
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and you can't run a country by saying there are religious exceptions to everything. but that -- there was a lot of push to overturn that and that didn't happen. it was the dog that didn't bark. >> you know, there has been so much talk from certain people on the media landscape and on the political right about a war against religion. can you talk briefly about how the philadelphia case showed, once again, that over the past ten years that the roberts court has actually moved -- and again, the philadelphia case was a 9-0 decision. but have moved further to protect religious libberties and religious freedoms than perhaps any other court, at least in the past century. >> well, it has.
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and i think this court very much reflects the views of the base of the republican party, for instance. just their view is that the free exercise of religion has been discriminated against. and there is, within the conservative wing of the court, some disagreement on that. and you saw that in the covid cases. where places kept -- churches kept coming up to the court and telling us we can't go to services or we're going to go to services but can only have a limited number of people or we can't sing or we have to wear masks and that's a violation of our free exercise right. and before amy coney barrett joined the court, there was a 5-4 majority that said, in the interest of public safety, states and local governments
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have the right to make these kinds of judgments in the middle of a pandemic. but once she joined the court and justice ginsburg died, the court flipped and it was 5-4 the other way with the chief justice in the minority. >> it's jonathan lemire, i'm tempting the news gods here i recognize, but it's the end of the supreme court term which means the beginning of the speculation of the future of the supreme court, in particular justice briar who many people believe may be eyeing retirement in the seminear future. the white house doesn't have any heads up one thing is coming one way or the other. this is held very tightly, close hold as to what his future plans are. what is your sense of it? what is your sense of what he may decide, whether it's this year or next year? we know he's come under increasing pressure from some liberals who want him to step aside before the midterm elections before the democrats could lose control of the senate
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for confirmation but it's not just about justice briar's health it's the health of the senators who perhaps if one of them were to pass on and a republican government appointed a replacement, give us a sense where this could go, and who president biden may be looking at as a successor if given chance to appoint one. >> it's difficult to read the line of a supreme court justice at a time like this in his or her life. i have no idea is the truthful answer. justice briar is about to turn 83. he's one of the most fit 83 years you can see. this temple had a good term, wrote good opinions. on the other hand, he's not a political idiot. he worked in the senate.
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he worked for ted kennedy. he was chief counsel for the senate judiciary committee. or maybe he wasn't chief counsel, i don't know what his title was. he worked there, now it was a different senate in those days, but he's not stupid so he certainly sees what the odds are, possibility if there is a -- one senator were to die, for example, or change parties. and so, this is not something that he doesn't know. they didn't do it yesterday. i guess we'll all be waiting today to see what he does. and i just think it's an unknowable thing about this point. i've seen a couple of times in in the last month at various events. he looked well. i didn't ask him this question because he probably would have
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just walked away. there's all this push to get him to retire, this very public push. there was some -- one of the liberal organizations organized a truck to go around the supreme court calling for his retirement. well, a, he wasn't there. but, b, some of this is itself sort of stupid, because he's hired clerks. i don't know what the answer is, but do you really want to make somebody -- how would you feel about that. if somebody had a truck that went around and said, nina totenberg should retire i would probably dig my heels in many, that's a stupid approach. >> you're not going anywhere. at least we hope, nina. >> bless you. >> nina covering a lot of ground for us this morning, great to see you. thanks so much. let's turn to the pandemic. the cdc yesterday announced there's been an uptick in new
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cases of coronavirus nationwide. tom costello has more. >> reporter: after months of progress in dramatically slowing the spread of covid, signs of trouble. the cdc reports a 10% increase in new cases new cases in just . 25% of those linked to the new delta variant which the cdc director said is highly transmissible and will likely soon be the dominant variant. >> it is clear that community where's people remain unvaccinated are communities that remain vulnerable. >> reporter: while 67% of americans 18 and older have now received one shot, many states in the south and midwest are well below that mark. those with the lowest vaccination rates, alabama, wyoming, the virgin islands and louisiana and miss misat 46%. in a thousand counties, vaccination rates are under 30%.
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43-year-old joshua decision not to get vaccinated nearly killed him. a diabetic, he soon contracted covid, was rushed to a hospital in houston and eventually required a double lung transplant to save his life. >> just the worst decision i ever made in my life. i had to say good-bye to my parents and my family and son and that is something you never should have to do. >> reporter: he was released after nearly four months in the hospital. the cdc reports 99.5% of all covid-19 deaths involve people who have not been vaccinated. >> the science is clear. the best way to protect yourself against the virus and its variants is to be fully vaccinated. >> tom costello reporting for us there. let's bring in former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. his book is titled "uncontrolled spread, why covid-19 has crushed us and how we could defeat the next pandemic." it is great to have you back with us this morning. want to get into the book in a moment. but first let's talk about the
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delta variant we hear again as we just did there from dr. fauci, that if you have the vaccine, that is the bottom line, you are well protected against these variants including the delta variant itself. so how concerned should americans be about this as we see the percentage of coronavirus cases with delta uptick here. >> yeah, look, i think year seeing a decoupling between blases in the country that are impervious to dense outbreaks and the parts of the country that look vulnerable are undervaccinated, particularly rural counties in the west and the south where you see low vaccination rates. the cdc talked about a thousand counties where vaccination is below 30%, those are the vulnerable parts of the country and we'll see a epidemic heading into this fall. where certain regions do have dense spread and other regions like the northeast, like san francisco and vaccination rates are very high, don't see that
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level of spread. they're still vulnerable people in the community, we still have to vaccine sate additional people. but the good news is all of the vaccines that we're using look protective against this new variant. pfizer, the company i'm on the board of, the vaccine looks protective based on the the experiment and clinical data and same with moderna and same with the j&j vaccine. we have experimental evidence in the last 24 hours that that vaccine is looking to be protective gent the della variant as well. and the original strain, the wuhan strain. >> so as you look at the vaccination rates across the south, they're in the high 20, low 30% across the states. s.e.c. country as joe and i might call it. how do you change that trajectory, because what you're laying out here is a scenario where in those states and those others with low vaccination rates we'll see coronavirus come back into the fall, impacting
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school and work and everything else. it is readily available, the message is out there. you have high-profile people in the states, nick saban the head coach at the university of alabama put out a psa that people should go get vaccinated. people know it is available and it is out there. people like you have been saying again and again, it is the way to avoid these variants. how do you change that trajectory now? >> yeah, look, i think the administration is changing their approach. we have a top down approach to get people vaccinated. we opened up large sites and federally supported them and there was messaging from people like me and like dr. fauci. i think at this point we need to start doing a bottoms up approach. people who were going to get vaccinated because dr. fauci encouraged them to likely are already vaccinated so we need to do a grassroots approach where we look to local community leaders and look to make the accessible in points where people might go to get health
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care to try to get more vaccine in the hands of rural providers who could vaccinate people when they come into the office. that is more expensive. that is a harder campaign. we have to allow some waistage. if they could only deliver four doses on a given day they have to throw out two doses we need to accept that kind of slippage in the system for the sake of trying to get vaccine into smaller units and into the hands of local providers xg but that is how we'll get additional people vaccinated at this point. the people that are the willing customers, eager to get vaccinated, people who were going to go out and go to a mass vaccination site, they've already been vaccinated by enlarge. we'll stick pick up people who had haepts been accessible but now the demand is lower, we have some hesitations, they have more questions that need to be answered and that is going to be that sort of grassroots campaign. new york for example just started vaccining people in their home. you call a number and a nurse
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will visit you in your home and those are the kind of things we need to look to to get more people vaccinated. >> dr. gottlieb, and somebody on the board of pfizer, i don't need to tell you the kind of marketing job that pharmaceutical companies have done in this country. it seems to me that the pharmacists and doctors in these small communities, i mean my state is a tale of two states. we have high vaccination rates in the cities of st. louis and kansas city, and then we have very low vaccination rates, in fact number one in the country for new covid cases over the last few weeks. and this is because of the small communities where a pharmacist and where a doctor have such sway with the people who live there. and why aren't the pharmaceutical companies that made these vaccines, i used to say in the senate, all of the ads to convince people to tell doctors to prescribe things, if you just take this drug you will
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be thin and skip through fields of daisies and live happily ever after. why aren't they using that kind of power right now to use pharmacists and doctors in the small communities to get the vaccinations which will save all of us, a lot of money. >> yeah, it is a great question. because the vaccines are under an emergency use authorization, so because they're not fully approved yet, the pharmaceutical companies can't market the vaccine. so all of the traditional things that pharmaceutical companies would be doing, reaching out to providers, running advertising on tv and in print media they can't do. they have a difficult time responding to the misinformation in the market because their inhabited in terms of what they could say. once the vaccines gain a full approval from the fda which i hope will be soon, they have the capacity to then go out and market and i think to your point, that will make a difference on the the margins. they do have a lot of experience in terms of how to market
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pharmaceutical products but i think the real difference here is resources in local communities getting local leaders leveraging the power of local leadership, leveraging the power of local providers to get to get vairks into the communities where you're seeing undervaccination. that is important in some of the parts of the country where vaccination rates are higher. once we start getting vaccines into the hands of doctors it will make it easier to get access to it. >> and doctor, finally, this is a question that we asked dr. fauci earlier this week, can you give us a timeline on when the fda can provide full approval for these vaccines? i've spoken with friends and family members who are vaccine hesitant and have said that they aren't going to take the vaccine until it is approved. i've discouraged that from that type of thinking but that is where they are. so what is the timeline, your
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best guess? >> my best estimation is that it would take the fda about three months to do the full approval from the time of submission and application. if i remember correctly the pfizer application went in in the end of april. and moderna filed at some point in may. so you come up on three months toward the end of july and into august. most of the evaluation that the fda is doing is not an evaluation of clinical data because they've been doing that as they go. they've been looking at the safety data very carefully as it came in. what they're doing now is what we call the cmc portion of the application, looking at the stability and the shelf life of the vaccine. once you fully license a vaccine and put in commercial distribution, it might go to doctor's offices so you want to do all of the testing to see how a vaccine will be tolerated in normal distribution. because right now we don't have normal distribution of the vaccine. the vaccine is going to mass
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distribution sites. so that wasn't done fully under the eua, under the emergency use authorization. but under the clinical portion of the review, looking at the safety data, the fda has been doing that all along so i suspect that was done already. >> scott got gottlieb, thank you so much. and coming up orn "morning joe," one of the member of the investigating committee investigating the attack on capitol hill, adam shift will join us. plus the trump family business indicted on tax crimes. are prosecutors looking for bigger targets we'll ask our legal experts. and economists are expecting a strong jobs report but what about the struggle to find workers. we'll discuss all tv straight ahead. a busy 8:00 a.m. hour starts right now. so it is an an incredible collaboration from the beginning with the federal, with the state and the governor has been here
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every single day. the senators i believe the same. the fact that we've all tom kogt is what gives us hope, is what gives us strength. and inspiration. it does for me every single day. >> well thank you, mr. president. and you recognize the severity of this tragedy from day one and you've been very supportive. the cooperation has been great. the local, both the municipal and the county have been fantastic. and you guys have not only been supportive at the federal level but we've had no bureaucracy. >> just one por thing. you know what is good about this, we're cooperating, we're a nation that we could cooperate. >> yes, sir, that is right. >> and when it is really important. >> a nice bipartisan moment yesterday between president biden and florida governor ron desantis and local leaders as well. as local and federal leaders put
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politics aside in the aftermath of last week's deadly condo collapse. good morning and welcome to "morning joe" and it is friday, july 2nd along with willie and me. we have political analyst claire mccaskill. columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and political analyst eugene robinson. and white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire. mika has the morning off. and we've seen a few moments and again we never want to overread into these moments and if we do, we certainly will hear about it. it will suggest that we're somehow hopelessly naive. but it is important for americans. it is important for the world to see the president and the governor of florida sitting down, being polite to each other, agreeing with each other
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that they're on the same team. that they're working together to alleviate the terrible pain, the terrible suffering that these families are going through in florida. we also saw it earlier this week when we saw mitch mcconnell, yes mitch mcconnell, i could say his words, i promise you know one watching will disappear or be turned into a pile of ashes, when mitch mcconnell said some nice things about joe biden and his relationship with joe biden. are there fights going on in washington? yes? . are we going through a very political winter from january 6th? yes. yes, there are reasons to be discouraged as we look all around. but also let's look for reasons to be hopeful. and i thought yesterday, willie -- was one of those moments where we could go, yeah, that is what grown ups have done in american government for 240
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years now. >> well, it is a commentary where we are that it did stand out yesterday. because that is a disaster. it is a crisis where the baseline is that the two leaders work together and move quickly. but it is true that in our current political climate, it was notable that the way they spoke to each other with respect. also interesting, joe, to think those two guys could be running against each other for president in 2024, depending on what donald trump decides to do with his political future. the man whose hand joe biden put on ron desantis there, that could be his opponent in 2024. but your right. and this is a moment of terrible sadness down there. of a terrible crisis down there. of terrible grief down in surfside, florida. and president biden did what he does better than anything else which is to help people work their through pain and it was a nice moment yesterday. >> well, and also, willie, it
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was ron desantis could have said anything at that moment, and he talked about the federal government's involvement and praised it. more so than anything we would have seen over the past five years in similar situations when you had people coming together that obviously were on opposite ends in a very toxic political culture. so, yeah, i put a check by that and say, okay, that is a nice moment, let's build on that. >> yeah. we'll take what we could get these days. let's dive into the news. former president trump business and allen weisselberg were charged by the manhattan district attorneys office yesterday in a case involving an array of tax related crimes. correspondent hallie jackson has the details. >> reporter: the trump organization long time cfo
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appearing in handcuffs, indicted along with the company that bears the former president's name. accused of what prosecutors called a sweeping and audacious tax fraud scheme. they allege that the trump organization over the last 15 years paid top execs off the books giving out fringe benefits like cars, apartments and tuition amounting to for allen weisselberg, an extra $1.7 million in compensation which should so v been taxed. instead weisselberg evaded some $900,000 in federal, state and local taxes and got more than $100,000 in refunds he was never owed. the defendants facing 15 counts include second-degree grand larceny pleading not guilty. >> i believe the political forces driving today's events are just that. it is a political -- politically driven. >> reporter: in a statement donald trump himself who was not charged calling the investigation a continuation of a political witch hunt by the
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radical left democrats with new york now taking over the assignment. prosecutors pre-butting that argument in court saying it is no about political. this investigation which is on going, has been thur and careful and proper. multiple people familiar with the investigation said that the attorneys had been looking to secure cooperation from weisselberg to building a case against former president trump. >> i don't think there is any question that the d.a.'s office wech wanted to get him to testify against either both the trump organization or trump. but sometimes it takes bringing the indictment and staring it in the face for the reality to set in. >> that is hallie jackson reporting. let's bring in former chief of the fraud section of the department of justice, andrew weissmann and lead prosecutor in the mueller special council's office and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, both msnbc legal
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analysts. good morning to you both. and rue, i begin with you. if this is a tip of a iceberg, if that is true, what did you learn when the indictments were unsealed and again what is below the surface? >> well, i think it was a correct description that this was a sweeping indictment. they talk about a 15-year scheme that began long before president trump was the president, continued during the time that he was president and even continued after he was president. involved numerous corporations under the trump umbrella and numerous executives. so to me this was a shot across the bow saying we have the goods and this is, i think, the beginning not the end of the manhattan district attorney's office investigation. sending the signal to weisselberg and others is get onboard now because we're not afraid to bring charges will be details and thorough in our
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investigation because what they did bring yesterday was impressive. >> joyce, do you agree that what they brought yesterday was impressive? >> i agree with andrew in that regard. and i'm struck every time i hear the president, the former president's comments. he didn't say, this is untrue, we're going to fight this. he didn't say like you would think a business owner might, this is outrageous, i can't believe this is going on at my company. instead he returns to witch hunt because what can you say when prosecutors filed a highly detailed document that alleged with a lot of specific information that there was a pattern and practice across 15 years of doing all sorts of things to avoid both the payment of taxes by your employees and to permit the corporation engage in fraudulent conduct. this is a president who infamously in his debate with
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hillary clinton said he was smart because he didn't pay taxes. and we don't know yet whether this case will ultimately reach him. right now it is limited to the corporation that is his namesake corporation and to his cfo. but those comments may come back to haunt him. >> thank you both. still ahead on "morning joe," breaking news overnight as american droops leave afghanistan's bagram air base after 20 years of war. where this puts the president's time line of a complete withdrawal by september 11th. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. ng joe," we'll be right back. ahhh! get out of here mouse. ahhh! ♪♪ don't flex your pecs. terminix.
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one of the largest bases in afghanistan is now clear of american soldiers.
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we learned overnight from officials who said bagram air base now has been turned over to the afghan government. joining us now correspondent covering national security in the military courtney kube. what more could you tell us about this overnight development? >> so if you think of the withdrawal of u.s. and coalition troops from afghanistan as sort of a ten-mile run, this is really mile nine. this is a very significant development. it is one that we expected. it is -- it shows that the u.s. military withdraw from afghanistan is pretty much on pace with what we've been hearing over the last several weeks. it is not something that has been widely publicized, this withdraw, in part because it is a dangerous environment and a lot of the u.s. military and defense officials i spoke with are very concerned about the u.s. and these coalitions troops leaving and the taliban striking
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out at them and this becoming a very contested environment. so bagram, it was turned over, the last u.s. and coalition troops left friday morning local time in afghanistan. it was turned over to the afghans just before midnight eastern time, our time. so several hours ago. it now leaves really the majority of u.s. troops at one location, at the resolute support headquarters in kabul and that will be when that -- when that is closed down, when general scott miller leaves, that will show the end of the conflict there. now it is not going to be the complete end of u.s. military presence there. there still will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 650 u.s. troops there guarding the embassy and it is enormous and it is a pretty herculean task to keep it safe once all u.s. troops are out of there. there also will be a potentially small presence, a couple of hundred troops at the kabul
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airport to keep it safe. that is going to be a joint mission most likely with the turkish military and other allies. and the real reason for that is defense officials say, look, you can't have an embassy without a safe airfield. so they need to make sure that they have a safe airport where they could send military in and where contractors and u.s. state department officials and other u.s. golf officials could save safely leave the country. this is a real milestone, bagram has been the almost a hallmark of u.s. military presence in afghanistan for these last 20 years. that is where it has been one of the largest if not the largest base. it is been a relatively safe airfield. it is the fact that the u.s. turned it over to afghanistan. >> it really shows that this the close -- very close to the end of the u.s. military presence there in afghanistan. >> all right, courtney kube, thank you very much. and un eej robinson, this is a
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move that is unpopular with many in the pentagon. unpopular with i would say the majority of the u.s. foreign policy establishment, rising fears of civil war in afghanistan, rising fears of an ultimate taliban take over. but this is something that if you read the tea leaves, joe biden was ready to get out of afghanistan a long time ago. he opposed barack obama's surge about a decade ago. this was, regardless of what the generals thought, this seemed inevitable. >> it did. you could imagine that if we had waited another five years or another ten years to take this step, we'd be having the same discussion and the same fears, because the taliban is still there, right. they live there. they're going to be there and they're always going to be a
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presence in afghanistan or at least for the foreseeable future. and it is -- i think we're going to step back at some point and we're going to look and we're going to say what did we accomplish in afghanistan? what did we actually do? we managed to dislodge a regime that had harbored al qaeda, that is why we went in there in the first place and the people that we had harbored, people planned 9/11 and we did that, with relative dispatch. and then the remaining 19 years of our involvement there, maybe i'm just kind of looking at glass half empty this morning. >> coming up, one of the lawmakers who will serve on the select committee investigating the attack of the united states capitol. congressman adam schiff joins us when "morning joe" comes right back.
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yesterday house democrats made their picks for the select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the united
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states capitol. house speaker nancy pelosi chose republican congresswoman liz cheney to join the panel. here is congresswoman cheney's response amid push back from her own party. >> congresswoman cheney, are you concerned about getting reprimanded by your conference and potentially losing your committee assignments over this? >> listen, i think it is clear to all of the people on this committee that our oath to the constitution, our duty, our dedication to the rule of law and peaceful transfer of power has to come above any concern about partisanship or politics. >> resources tell nbc news before the announcement, house minority leader kevin mccarthy threatened to strip republican members of their existing committee assignments if they accepted an appointment from speaker pelosi. here is mccarthy's response yesterday. >> i'm not making any threats about committee assignments but
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as you know how congress works. i was shocked that she would accept something from speaker pelosi. it would seem to me since i didn't hear from her, maybe she's closer to her than us. i don't know. >> meanwhile republican congressman adam kinzinger who along with cheney was the only two republicans who vote for the select committee responded to mccarthy's reported threat with this quote, who gives a bleep. from adam kinzinger there, joe. so it appears kevin mccarthy is more concerned with not showing allegiance or working together at all with democrats and nancy pelosi than to getting to the bottom of what happened here. >> yeah, i know. and really, again, adam kinzinger, i think his views will probably shared by a lot of conservatives who are actually concerned about january 6th, a lot of conservatives who remember kevin mccarthy getting
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on the floor and saying that donald trump bore responsibility in part for what happened on january 6th, conservatives, true conservatives, not trump cult members, but true conservatives, remember, kevin mccarthy getting on the phone and screaming at donald trump, begging for help. begging for assistance on january 6th when congress was being over run, when republican members who now deny anything ever happened that was untoward were actually helping police officers barricade the house chamber against the mob. conservatives remember mccarthy bragging to other members in his own delegation that he had shouted at trump and asked, swore at him and asked who the blank do you think you're talking to when donald trump tried lying to him saying it was antifa that was -- that was
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responsible for those attacks. true conservatives remember it was actually kevin mccarthy who told the president that it was trump supporters who were doing this. so, yeah, it is a good point. also liz cheney's lifetime conservative rating well up in the 90s. she's more of a conservative than kevin mccarthy ever was. kevin mccarthy will ever be. >> coming up, the june jobs report is due out in just a moment. will it be as strong as economists are expecting. we'll have the number and analysis next on "morning joe."
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♪ me and you singing in the park ♪ ♪ me and you, we're waiting for the dark ♪ ♪♪ we want to take a minute to recognize someone on our amazing team.
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john gonzalez known to all of us simply as gonzo is retiring today. gonzo is our senior video operator and lighting director. he's been our showed lighting director from day one. 14 years ago. he's the guy behind the scenes that makes sure we all look good or, well, as good as humanly possible. and before "morning joe," gonzo was in an msnbc original and started with the network 25 years ago. one of the first members of the video and lighting team back if '96 in fort lee, new jersey and then on to -- where he served as a one man electrical repair shop and our entire rigging crew. gonzo started his career at 25 years old as a roady. for six years working with such tours as journey, tina turner, michael jackson, george michael, and old blue eyes frank sinatra.
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he looks forward to spending time with his wife and their cabin in the woods and driving his beloved '61 chevy. gonzo, we are all going to miss you. >> i'm going to miss him. >> i cannot go back on tv now. i can't do it. >> that voice from off camera, mika who actually said the only reason she's been able to be on camera the past 14 years is because of gonzo. willie, man, we're going to miss him. >> absolutely. and all of the things that you said are true. he's an original 14 years. hard to believe we've been doing this for 14 years but gonzo has been there from day one going back to fort lee, back to sec auckous, and remember that big old warehouse where we worked. but every time you saw him in the hallway, a big hollow and get you started off in the morning and as mika said there in the background, to light this show, to make people look good when they've woken up at 4:00 in
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the morning. that is a hurk uly an effort. but for all of the lights, what a great guy gonzo is and to be with him and work with him and see him in the hallways every day, i view it as a blessing and one of the best parts of the job and gonzo tells me, joe, that you've read that list of people that he worked with on the road, lighting you and i don't know what he meant lighting you is like lighting george michael and you take from that what you will. and dealing with you offset is a lot like dealing with sinatra off stage. don't know what he meant by that but that is what he said. >> i don't know exactly what that means. just a gentle spirit. now but gonzo, we love you so much and we loved having you on the show for so long and i love about you your joyful spirit. and it is funny, we talk you are a jack of all trades, one man
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electrical fix-it crew. i love the fact that you're always around helping anybody with anything. the one thing you never heard about our place, that is not my job, i don't do it and gonzo epitomized that more than anything. we love you gonzo and congratulations and please, please come back and visit often. >> congrats, gonzo. great to see you, my friend. good luck, drive off in this beautiful chevy of yours. we'll see up down the road. now let's turn to breaking news, the june jobs report crossed just moments ago. the united states added 850,000 new jobs, 706,000 had been expected. the unemployment rate went up slightly from 5.8% in may to 5.9% in june. let's bring in former treasury official morning joe economic analyst steve ratner and host of the pad cast on brand with
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donnie deutsche. steve ratner, you're looking at the numbers as they've just crossed. what do you see? >> yeah, there is a lot to look at here. the headline number is well above expectations. the highest numbers we've seen in several months now. but there are some questions about it. it may be that a lot of the jobs came back in the government sector as a result of the government stimulus and the other money that has been coming out. not clear yet how many of the jobs are really in the private sector. but it will certainly fuel the debate over how much more stimulus the economy needs at this point given that the number of jobs is accelerating. we saw yesterday in the applications for new job claims which is a number that is collected after the number that was released today, a very strong number as well. so it does feel like the economy owes on a very positive track but we have to stick with the numbers a bit to know that better. last thing i'll say that the earning number of 3.6% last month was a strong earnings
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number and that is an important part of this job's report as well. >> and you know, donnie deutsche, i've heard it throughout the summer from small businesses and family businesses, restaurants, large restaurants, larger companies, the same thing. that they're starting to see people come back with the expiration, some of the states are starting to stop the added $300 in unemployment benefits that was part of the covid relief package. that even the biden administration told the administration they were fine with them doing that. as those start to expire and you see the job market that are hot. you go into a mcdonald's there are five signs people begging for people to come and apply. you go into other companies, the same thing. up and down sort of back and down the food chain. there is doubt this economy is heating up. it will continue to heat up as these unemployment benefits,
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these added $300 unemployment benefits start to expire. >> yeah, there are a lot of people in the hospitality business can't find workers because the government paid them to stay at home and that is changing. a little sign post news, it is interesting, is car dealerships, for the first time in my memory, 70% of cars when you go into buy a car, you have to pay over msrp, anybody that has been buying cars for years you know you go in and you negotiate down. if you want to go buy a car now, you have to over-pay for the price on the sticker. so what does that say? there is two things. there is an incredible pent up demand for everything, everything is booming. yet all of a sudden does inflation start to creep in there and my concern is everything in the market right now and every economic number starts to point up and everything is looking frothy, that is when the bottom falls out.
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if you're investing your entire life when everything is looking so rosie as it is right now, that is when something -- the -- happens. so a lot of positive news but reason to be concerned in different places. >> i remember back in 2006, 2007 and people said you should invest in real estate. everybody is investing in real estate. and people were selling their businesses to invest in real estate, i knew bad times were coming. so i get what you're saying, donnie. an over heated economy. my god, the housing market is crazy. so many other markets are crazy. claire mccaskill, donnie was talking about prices going up, you look at cars, the cost of cars going up, the cost of housing going up, i'm just wondering if we're going to be in the coming year, coming fute years, if we're going to be for the first time in, my god, 30, 40 years, worried about
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inflation. >> i think it is a real worry. as you might gather by my background, i'm on the the road in a hotel room. and i will tell from my experience over the last few days, people are understaffed. there aren't enough people working, especially in -- especially in the service industry right now. there is pressure on wages and would you turn to steve ratner and ask him, while they haven't really been able to show that the unemployment benefits kept people out of a job market, what are is your sense about wage growth, where is it headed and could that fuel the inflation? >> these are great questions an this is a very hotly debated subject among economists. right now we have over 9 million open jobs in this country. a record number of open jobs looking for people to come to work. we also have one of the highest quit rates, people quitting jobs that we've seen in this country in a very long time.
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and so the question is why aren't people going back to work? and this is exactly the problem you guys are talking about and i've seen this too as well, and there are a bunch of explanations. one explanation is the extra $300 a week of unemployment benefits that people are getting. there is anecdotal evident if you look at states that have eliminated that benefit for states that still have that benefit, there are some evidence that in fact that is a factor in all of this. people are concerned about childcare. another factor is that people are concerned about their health situation, still worried about going back to work in the middle of a virus and it is true that 3.5 million people have dropped out of the labor force in the course of the pandemic. for whatever set of reasons. perhaps people who are baby boomers, getting closer to retirement anyway and saying well this is a good time to retire. and the last thing i would say that i've seen evidence, again very anecdotal evidence of it, a lot of people are just at the
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bottom end are tired of doing menial jobs. they don't want to go back to mcdonald's earn $12 or $15 an hour. and the fact is that between all of the stimulus payments that we made plus the fact that people couldn't spend money during the lockdown, household balance sheets and household savings is sat a very high rate and people have the financial flexibility to kind of go through the summer and see how it goes and decide what they want to do. so the ying and yang is we're adding a lot of jobs but finding it hard to find the people and as a result wages are going up which is a good thing obviously for the workers. but it does lead to the kinds of inflation rate pressures that donnie was talking about. the very last thing i'll say is autos is a special problem because the auto companies can't get the chips that they need to make cars so car production has been slower than the demand that is out there for them. >> yeah, and the supply chain, so many examples of the supply chain just being terribly messed up because of the covid.
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and also because it is been very hard tor people to hire employees and, you know, steve ratner said it is hotly debated among economists, not so hotly debated among people that i speak to that own small businesses or even mid-size businesses. but the most job openings ever and one of the highest quit rates ever, jonathan lemire, the biden administration understands, understands that before the economy really getting moving along, people are going to have to be inspired to get back into the work force. and with such a massive of job openings, and still people just checked out of the work force, there is obviously a problem with the biden administration has to take care of. >> and joe, we're going to hear from the president in about an hour and a half. he'll make remarks on job's
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report and there will be a bit of a victory lap. aides are suggesting about the number and his economic policies are working. but you are right, there are people that need to take these jobs an the white house is certainly aware of that. and we've heard from the president being certainly supportive of the higher wages. that is certainly something that democrats are happy about. but they know this is a balancing act going forward. and steve ratner, i want to go to you one more time about this. there is a lot of debate right now about money that is coming out, the infrastructure bipartisan deal, seems largely agreed to but hashed out, a far bigger part of the cares act, economy is coming later this year probably on reconciliation, that is the timing of which is a little bit uncertain. you had some thoughts about where that money should be spent and how much of it should be spent. what is good for the economy right now in your estimation? >> first point, willie, is that i do think that we're past the point of needing money to stimulate the economy.
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i think there is so much money out there right now, $2 trillion by many estimates if people's bank accounts that they have not spend. what we do need are the kind of things in the bipartisan infrastructure agreement reached a week ago, the $579 billion. and how do you spend that money and i wrote a piece the other day about actrack which is going to get $66 billion of that and over 10% is going to amtrak and if you dig into the finances you find out is that actrack makes good money on the northeast quarter, we go back and forth between boston and washington. but they also run trains in 46 out of the 48 states on the lower 48 and what you could see on this chart is how badly they do. and in the northeast corridor, even passenger pays over $100 and amtrak makes $43 of
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operating profit on a long dance train, amtrak charges the same amount but loses $107 million. and by the way, probably around 1% of americans ever take a long distance train trip on amtrak. so why are we putting $66 billion into amtrak and by the way also, if you read both what biden said and what the -- has said and what is in the agreement, there is no talk about truly high-speed rail. just more money for the kinds of trains that we don't need. as you could see on the chart, amtrak's share of passengers has been falling dramatically in the u.s. since 2012. and what is not on this chart is a share of passengers in the northeast corridor has been rising sharply over the last decade. at the expense of airlines. so it seems pretty clear that amtrak is only viable between high lie dense cities but amtrak is now, they play the politics brilliantly and the same day as the deal was announced, amtrak put out a proposal more more routes and they want to start
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service to cheyenne, wyoming, and duluth, minnesota, of all places and that would take them to 47 out of 48 states and you could see on the map it is a spiderweb all over the country of service to places that most people are never, ever going to take a train to. >> no, they'll fly by plane. especially if we're not doing what so many of our global competitors have been doing for decades and that is focusing on high-speed rail. i mean, let's at least get the northeast corridor right since that is where people do take trains and get some of the tracks serviced up. so, donnie, i wanted to follow up on what claire was talking about, being in a hotel and it being clear that even though there is the demand, there is just not the workers there. i was in washington, d.c., over the past several weeks, and would go to -- to hotels and again you check in but the restaurants weren't open, shops weren't open, so many things
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were not open for one reason and one reason alone, they couldn't find people to work. you drive through cities like washington, you drive through cities like boston, and one business after another business is going out of business. they've held on as long as they could, and now that they can open their doors, they're not able to open their doors. again, because -- again, i don't care what economists say, i've talked to enough small businesses and large businesses, i've talked to enough restaurant owners, i've talked to enough people in the hospitality business and they're all saying the same thing. we have job openings, we can't get people to work. so, donnie, again, it is a big problem, i know you still advise a lot of business clients quietly. tell me, tell me in an informal basis, tell me what are they telling you and what are you hearing? >> what i see and what i feel is
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there is something changed in the american psyche of what i'll call the work ethic and toss not just the $300 check. i think post pandemic people got used to staying at home. cnbc had a thing called the great resignation and there is something like 92% of americans are considering changing jobs or leave their jobs and i think that we've gotten a little soft in the pandemic. i love the james gorman, head of morgan stanley said to his workers, i'm not going to give you the option. this is a separate issue people going back to work, i'm not going to give you the option of coming back to work. if you feel okay going to a new york city restaurant, you could go back to work and i'm one of the believers of this kind of this new soft attitude about work from home, flexibility and what not, there is something about people going back to work that has to happen and if i was still running a company today, i would say, guess what, you're coming back to work. so there are people who don't want to work and people that don't want to go back physically to work and we've sof --
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softened in the pandemic and that is worrying to me. >> and burger king offering a $1,500 signing bonus to come work for them. so pulling out all of the stops. steve ratner thank you so much for your analysis and your charts. we'll see you soon. to which i will after house speaker nancy pelosi announced her about beings for the select committee on the attack on the capitol. adam schiff is joining us. he is also appointed to that select committee. also with us, this morning times reporter michael schmidt. good morning to you both. congressman schiff, let me ask you first about your objectives. now that you are on this select committee joined by liz cheney appointed by nancy pelosi, what do you aim to find here different than what we already though about that day? >> well, our gold standard is
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produce a report like the 9/11 commission did. so everything that led up to january 6, what intelligence we had, what intelligence we might have had, what took place on the 6th, why we were so ill prepared, why the response was so untimely. what we need to do most importantly to protect ourselves going forward. so what recommendations do we have. some of that ground has been partially covered, a lot of it hasn't been covered at all. on the intelligence commit it, we're still trying to get answers to some of the most basic questions. so we want this to be an exhaustive analysis of what happened that day. >> and your thoughts who else will be on this committee. of course congresswoman cheney will be a part of it, but we don't know what other republicans will be involved. so do you welcome congresswoman cheney's presence on the committee an secondly, do you
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have concerns about who gop leader mccarthy may put on this committee and whether they would be willing to investigation get a gate what happened in a good faith effort considering that so many republicans are in a state of denial?gate what happened in faith effort considering that so many republicans are in a state of denial? >> i do welcome liz cheney's presence and as well as any republican who wants to get to the pot of what happened on the 6th and is serious about their constitutional duty. think that she is approaching subject with great solemnity. in terms of who mccarthy will recommend, it is hard to say. he didn't want the investigation to be done to begin with when he was offered a commission negotiated in a bipartisan basis with five democrats and five republicans, he didn't want that to take place because touchdown doesn't want to take place. and so whether he willown
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doesn't want to take place. and so whether he will try to make a circus out of it or to put responsible people on it, hard to say. but we can only on control what we do and we intend to full fell our constitutional duty. >> and there was 40 minutes worth of footage a lot of it unseen. give us your reporting in terms of what can be done here, what sort of -- what would be the objectiveshe committee, but how does it shape the discourse going forward, how will the parties respond to what is found that day and will it be something that has any kind of meaning for republicansor will it be that they just change the topic of conversation? >> think that video shows the
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complexities and difficult at thes of investigating the insurrection because the insurrection happened six months ago. but it is just now after all the work and i know my colleagues spent all this time going of the footage, maybe the most photographed crime in all of history. all the cameraen gels and put it together into a 40 minute video where you can understand the entire thing. that took a lot of time. so investigating an event like this and getting to the bottom of not just what happened that day but why it happened, what were the factors that led to it and what could be done, that could take a long time because it is such a complex event. you have so many different defendants that have been indicted in this, we had a member of the oathkeepers agree
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to cooperate with the government this week, that could lead to other angles. and so we're still in a very early part of this. and the only thing that i would say about a committee like this, it can be very powerful because its request for documents, subpoenas, congress i'm sure wants every one of his requests to be taken serously, but when a committee likes this makes an ask, it is looked upon with more urgency and severity and that could lead to even more disclosures to the committee because they will get documents and cooperation probably more promptly at least from the gek xk difference branch. >> michael, thank you so much for your reporting. congressman schiff, thank you as well. this sunday is the fourth of july. it is the day we celebrate a group of miles an hour colonies who chose to declare that you
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are independence and framed by the declaration of independence most audacious lines. words penned by thomas jefferson that would forever change the course of human history. we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rates that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it is american scripture, drafted by a slave holder that has freed more men and women this the 245 years that have passed than any other political document ever drafted. perhaps that is why kim burns and others called jefferson the man of the millennium.
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for all of his terrible flaws as a man, jefferson the philosopher and declaration of independence that he wrote was the most radical political document that has ever been drafted. it declared the world would no longer be ruled by monarchies, would no longer be ruled by tyrannys, and would no longer be ruled by theocracies. abraham lincoln used the words as a battering ram to force through the emancipation proclamation. frederick douglass proclaimed the values expressed in jefferson's declaration to be, quote, saving pr principles. and martin luther king used it as a shield against the charges that he was an extreextremist. and he quoted jefferson's we hold these truths to be self of the that all men are created
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equal and suggested that if he was a radical, then he was a jefferson radical,jesus radical and extremist for love. dr. king's words speak to us still in these challenging times. and frederick douglass' charge that americans stand by those principles in the declaration of independence be true to them on all occasions in all places against all foes and at whatever cost, well, that is a charge we mustnoorly 170 years later. and let's also remember the words that jim clyburn told us this morning. he said america is a great country. we must extend its promise to all. and remain in constant pursuit of its perfection.
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good reminder, willie, on this fourth of july weekend. >> it is. and so much over the years has felt like a throwback looking backward to the you are against is of all those core fundamental democrat being issues and ideals but feel more urgent now today. is of all those core fundamental democrat being issues and ideals but feel more urgent now today. shaking of the foundation and that is the peaceful transfer of power. claire mccaskill, your thoughts. >> we'll start a new family tradition in my family. on the fourth of july and every fourth of july going forward, we're going to watch that video that the new york times put together of january 6th. >> claire mccaskill, have a great fourth of july to you and your family. joe, same to you. we'll see all of you back hoar here on monday. enjoy the holiday weekend.
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good morning, i'm stephanie ruhle reporting live from one of my favorite places on earth, the jersey shore. it is friday, july 2 and we start this morning with breaking news, the june jobs report is officially out, it shows 850,000 jobs were added last month, higher than expected. the unemployment rate ticked slightly up to 5.9%. taken together, the report shows an economy still gaining strength more than a year after the pandemic brought everything in this country to a screeching halt. yet we are still down from we were were, but look at this, since the start of the year, we've been steadily adding jobs every single month. more than 2 million since january. and this morning we're at fantasy island amusement

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